Are we horrible people?

[DKT3]

A horrible wife? Check

 

A horrible person? No, not at all.

 

We all do things we aren't proud of.

 

When I was in the fifth grade I stole a pencil and got caught. My teacher said this doesn't mean your a bad kid, you would be a bad kid if you keep stealing pencils.

[Hope Shimmers]

no, it's not. it's not scientifically proven, at all.

you have so many different theories & studies on the evolution of monogamy that it's hard to scientifically prove anything. not to mention how people in general confuse polygamy & polyamory with promiscuity. ALSO, you have different types of monogamy (sexual, social...) so it's hard discussing it because usually everyone has their own definition of monogamy.

 

the fact that a lot of people tend to **** around on their SO does not mean that they aren't monogamous, not at all. also, with affairs - a lot of people, in fact, ARE monogamous while having an A because their relationship with the spouse can be basically non - existent. the fact that people cheat and leave their relationships for others - they simply go from one monogamous life to another, only with a different person.

 

some people are wired to be mono, some folks are wired to be poly. it depends on everyone's situation. i once read a paper about monogamy being "created" solely for the kids - it's the way humans take care of their young ones, no? if that is true, than monogamy IS, in fact, natural to us and to the way we take care of our young ones, the way we chose to preserve the species. besides, it's hard talking about what is or isn't NATURAL to us. watching TV and shaving armpits, brushing our teeth isn't natural, either. the "natural" kind of got lost with the evolution.

 

in addition - poly families & communities are RARELY successful so that system isn't working for us humans, either.

 

so it's really a slipperyslope kind of discussion.

 

i will say one thing that IS proven - it isn't natural for humans to be with one person and one person only for their entire lives. that's why we usually have more than just one mono relationships in our life.

 

Whatever you say. I'm not going to get into a debate on the biology of human nature and the various definitions of monogamy on this thread. My reply was just to point out that the 'mantra' about monogamy has a biological basis, not just a societal one.

[the_artist_1970]

Honestly, your other post came across strongly in that direction to me too. It was similar to saying that people who get raped were "asking for it". So I appreciate the correction as well.

 

 

If I have to live that way with half the world's population in order to safeguard my marriage, then I'll stay single, thank you very much. Just my own opinion!

 

But for me it isn't hard to live that way. I have no desire to bring new friends into my life unless I choose to do so. I have never been a person who needed a lot of ppl in my life. I have great friends, a wonderful husband and awesome kids and family. I am in my 50s and have a great career and life. I am not missing out on anything by keeping men at bay and not getting too close to men outside my M. And I don't need to befriend my co-workers. I just need to do my job, be respectful and go home.

 

Again, I apologize for my first post. I love reading your posts and you are very inspiring.

[autumnnight]

OP, I third the suggestions for therapy. I believe forums can be very helpful and supportive. BUT, I do not believe that for a fragile person who is already contemplating the gravity of their actions to the point of calling themselves horrible are going to get the most strengthening advice from someone who has recently (or not recently) been the victim of an OW. I believe in absolute right and wrong, and I believe that guilty feelings are our consciences telling us something is WRONG. I do not believe anything is helped or satisfied (except a sense of vindictiveness or superiority) by beating on someone who is already in a place of guilt. I just found out I was cheated on, and even I do not think that driving the OW or even the cheating man in my case over the emotional edge is really going to do anything for me but make me a bitter old bitty.

 

You are making very bad choices right now. But the good things about choices are that you can change them. You can change them starting today, and keep changing them. You can do better.

[Hope Shimmers]

But for me it isn't hard to live that way. I have no desire to bring new friends into my life unless I choose to do so. I have never been a person who needed a lot of ppl in my life. I have great friends, a wonderful husband and awesome kids and family. I am in my 50s and have a great career and life. I am not missing out on anything by keeping men at bay and not getting too close to men outside my M. And I don't need to befriend my co-workers. I just need to do my job, be respectful and go home.

 

Again, I apologize for my first post. I love reading your posts and you are very inspiring.

 

Ah, okay. Thank you. I may owe you an apology because it seems I misinterpreted not just the first part of your previous post, but all of it.

 

I read the part about men you work with knowing to NEVER approach you no matter what, and I was thinking... "Now how would I convey that nonverbally to all men?" Then I am thinking of myself wearing a suit of armor and wielding a huge stick, which I would swing menacingly at any man that came within 10 yards of me.

 

Yeah, it's been a really boring day at work. My mind goes stupid places.

 

I generally view men as just people. I don't go out of my way to engage men in the workplace, nor do I go out of my way to avoid a man who happens to sit with me at lunch.

 

I have more male friends than female ones, though - always have. My best friend in high school was male and we are still close. I have never had a problem with any of those relationships. Either I'm attracted to someone or I'm not, and I am pretty selective so I am rarely attracted. I have never had attraction for any of my male friends, with the exception of one perhaps, although that one will never go anywhere. It would be really hard for me to put up a 'wall' and never interact with any men, but perhaps I would feel differently if I were married.

[atreides]

To the point of the OP, yes you were a "horrible person" but allow me to elaborate further before making conclusions about my post.

It is dangerous to go down the path of: "we are not bad or good, just make choices thereof" no, choices come with behavior and are not separated magically from ourselves.

 

We have to own what we do and it is essential. It compounds our failures when we whitewash, marginalize or outright deny what have done for this context. The greatness in ourselves however is that we learn from our "old selves" to be a "better self" or so we hope, not all do this.

So while we may have been a "horrible person" we may or may not be today and as we created choices and did things to make us "horrible" we can certainly do the opposite going forward to make us "great."

 

Point is, don't let "horrible" define you going forward, and i don't mean by simply washing or denying it away but by truly looking in the mirror and learning how not to be that person but someone whom is much better.

[bigman1]

Blu,

 

You have touched on an age old question, "is mankind inherently evil?" Go back and look at your old history or religious study books on that debate. Going beyond that, your question also surfaces when they ask if tyrants, genocidal leaders, Nazi guards, etc were evil people since they had loving relationships with people/ family/ friends despite their evil deeds. BTW, I am NOT comparing or lumping cheaters in that category of tyrants and nazis, just pointing out a debate that already exists. Please re-read that last sentence to avoid anyone getting offended.

 

In short, you have to define "horrible person" to see if it fits. Cheating means that you are willing to risk the destruction of the betrayed. The emotional destruction, mental destruction, lifestyle destruction, and even that of the kids should there be any involved. From the betrayed's side, they thought they had security in a marriage. They had made life plans had realistic expectations. They were growing old with someone, knew they would need a partner for those years. They also had plans for their younger years, too. Cheaters were willing to risk all of that being destroyed and in some cases destroy it. Does doing that to someone make one a "horrible person"?

 

Of course, those same factors exist even if a non cheating partner elects to divorce. Assuming the decision to divorce in a non cheating situation was a complete surprise to the other spouse. Are they horrible? is the damage the same?

 

I think, regrettably, the answer is "yes". Cheating makes the participants horrible people. Redeemable? Also, yes. Irrevocably horrible? Only to the ones that were betrayed. It makes them horrible because they are willing to risk the destruction of another person and have used and abused the trust that the partner placed in them to harm their partner. It is not the same as just wanting a divorce or break up. It is an abuse of trust to destroy another person.

 

Redemption is also important. It involves so much. It generally involves confessing and living in that hell with the betrayed. You see, no horrible person would ever build a fire, toss in their loved ones and then jump in to save them and not leave until the flames were extinguished. The ones that watch the flames without jumping in, are worse.

Edited April 3, 2015 by bigman1
clarity

[waterwoman]

I doubt it. I have been around for 5 decades now and I have yet to meet a truly horrible person. There are people with unpleasant habits who are at the same time the kindest, most generous friends imaginable. I love my H - have done for most of my adult life - and I know he isn't a horrible person. What he did was pretty horrible to me but he stopped doing that, regrets it and has done everything he can to fix it. I don't beleive that any human being's value is set in stone never to be changed, neither do I beleive that a single negative action or period of that person's life is enough to cancel out all the positive parts.

[Blu72]

Again I want to thank everyone who responded. I'm still re-reading this thread over and over and working through some stuff. There were some things pointed out that I never really contemplated before and a lot of things rang true for me even if I don't like hearing them. i am in the process of getting back into IC to deal with this and find the me I used to know and like. She's buried somewhere in the rubble of this mess I allowed. Time to pull her back out.

[Eagle's-bargain]

Are we (MOW,MOM,OW,OM) just horrible people for letting ourselves get involved in these affairs?

Yes, allegedly.

Are we completely devoid of feelings?

No, allegedly.

[jwi71]

Are we (MOW,MOM,OW,OM) just horrible people for letting ourselves get involved in these affairs?

 

Oh for Pete's sake no.

 

An A is the accumulation of series of bad choices - nothing more and nothing less. Do they highlight one's capacity for "ugly" - you bet. And we are all ugly at times. It is, by no way or means, a condemnation of YOU.

Everyone makes bad decisions - an A is a series of self perpetuating and self reinforcing bad decisions. A drug stealthily ever drawing you deeper. It feels so good. While being so wrong. And the cognitive dissonance meter goes off scale.

 

Are we completely devoid of feelings?

 

Of for f_ck's sake no. If you had no feelings you wouldn't be here or even caring enough to hide the A.

 

I really struggle, for obvious reasons, to understand how I came to this place in my life when I was one of those people who always felt affairs were such a disgrace. I had no tolerance for anyone who engaged in such destructive behavior. To me there was no excuse that someone could give for being in an affair

 

THAT is THE question.

How? Why?

Correction, that's the TWO questions to ask.

 

So...how? why?

 

Yet here I sit, ticking of excuse after excuse for why I find myself in this predicament and trying to convince myself that I really am not a bad person, just someone who lost her way. I want to blame him because that makes it easier to face myself in the mirror everyday. It's not his fault, at least not for my role in this mess. He has tried to take the blame for this at times, but really it's my fault. I should have been the one to say no. I lost my voice somewhere and I don't know how or even when that happened it's been so long.

 

Frame the questions in the context of YOU. Not what he said or did or whatever carrot he offered...but why you accepted.

 

I think I am a horrible person who is having a hard time admitting to myself what a cluster my life has become because of this.

 

Lucky for you, YOU are in control of said life. Want to change? Choose it.

Its really that simple.

 

The one thing you CAN'T do...is quit. Keep going. Dont give up. Dont think its too hard...its all in YOUR head...and, luckily enough, you control what happens there

[sandylee1]

Horrible person? Well what you're doing is horrible, but the fact that you post here and have asked this question shows your not that comfortable with it and feel some guilt.

Other cheaters and OW/OM wouldn't dream of seeking out a forum like this.

 

Maybe I'm too simplistic, but I always think about the end game, the worst that could happen in any given situation. If the 'worst ' happens and the A is discovered, how will you feel? How will your H feel? How will family feel? Etc. I would think about those things.

 

If there is so much happiness in your A and it wouldn't be that big of a deal if exposed, then continuing in the A probably doesn't seem like such a bad thing to you.

 

An affair shows you made a bad decision and continue to do so while you stay in it. If it blows up, the BSs will not accept this was a mistake. They'll see it as a concious decision to cheat over and over again, which they will say would never had stopped if it wasn't discovered.

 

The longer it goes on, the harder it is and the more horrible it will seem. At that point the BSs will not separate horrible choice from horrible person. They will go hand in hand. It's hard to separate the fact that you are doing a horrible thing, from you as a person because there is an expectation that we should be responsible for our behaviour.

 

I would ask myself this, how would I convince my loved ones that I'm NOT a horrible person if it gets exposed?

[Lion Heart]

1. I read the part about men you work with knowing to NEVER approach you no matter what, and I was thinking... "Now how would I convey that nonverbally to all men?"

 

2. generally view men as just people.

 

3. .......perhaps I would feel differently if I were married.

 

I completely agree with keeping any men (besides relatives) way out of my life. My 22DD actually said (I have eluded to this convo on other threads but these are her exact words) btw many conversations are about relationships & people's behaviours since my D Day. Plus she's studying psychology.

"Mum have you noticed that you only have to smile at a man you don't know in a totally non-sexual way and he can get an erection? " Yes I worked that one out years ago. "What IS THAT?" Men, not all men will get an E but smile and you're already sending SOME type of message that a man translates into "she's interested in me".

 

I've understood a great deal about the difference between the sexes. Men think about sex WAY more than women. With their SO, use porn WAAAY more and I'm sure, think of bonking a stranger down the street way more than women. If you're spending any time with them, it could come across to them that you're flirting. EVEN IF YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF THAT AT ALL.

 

After D Day I asked my chiropractor about this very point. One of the most faithful, virtuous and family centered men I know. He admitted that men are wired that way and it took him decades of work on his thinking to weed those thoughts out of his mind.

 

So Hope and Blu,

 

1. You don't rely on non-verbal communication with men. You straight talk them up front if they show anything more than a strictly professional relationship. Because even WHEN you do this, they may STILL take that as a challenge. IT HAS DRIVEN ME CRAZY AT TIMES.

 

I NEVER flirt. IMO it's completely disrespectful to my spouse. Each to their own. But I couldn't IMAGINE the issues if I did.

I've given NO CAUSE to any man to become interested in me but it happens. I barely go out much but I've even been hit on in front of my H without even seeing the man approaching. Paying a bill for goodness sake.

 

My dialogue is this:

OM pick up talk.

"I'm married" (NB: never say "sorry but I'm married! "

OM: but are you happy

None of your business I'm MARRIED.

OM: but does he make you happy. I'm sure I can.

For G**s sake I'm just as married now as I was 2 minutes ago and if you ask me in another 2 mins I'll be JUST AS MARRIED then as I AM NOW.

HAND UP AND TURN HEAD

Sometimes **** they grab my hand and kiss it!

Wtf.

Yes this whole scene has happened in front of my H a number of x and TBH I'm very embarrassed.

Is H flattered?

No! He's jealous I found out since D Day.

Because no one hits on him. Ok WTF. So

 

2. Sure men are just "people" but to ignore them as "men" is naiveté at least. I'm not saying they're all creeps. I'm saying their brain is wired VERY differently to most women IMO.

This is how women can't see Red Flags when having the odd "innocent lunch". YOU might be having the innocent lunch but HE might not be. So then it's an EA then a PA and bang D Day and the OW goes under the bus a lot of the time.

 

3. I guess it depends on the M.

When I'm in a committed relationship of any sort, it's my practise to ALWAYS put the wall up. When I've been single and a MM starts anything with me I've even created a spiel for THEM. Because girls there's ALWAYS a sob story to reel you in with. My spiel is this "I wouldn't care if your wife beat you and deprived you of sex for 50y and now she's a vegetable on life support. If you're MARRIED then you are ACTUALLY MARRIED end of".

 

Hoping to help!

Lion Heart.

[Friskyone4u]

Lion Heart is right. We all know that . Men ARE wired differently and are wired to be the pursuer since prehistoric times . Too offer we think with the wrong head.

Most women at some point are going to get unwanted advances at some point in their lives unless they hide in the house .

But like Lion Heart says, women who have no need for the ego kibbles from other men know how to Put out an attitude of "I'll br cordial to you but don't even think about it".

Knowing how to do that is a big first step in not allowing the advance from someone you should not be interested in to start you headed down the slippery slope. It's called having good boundaries.

Blu, you know you need some work. Again , in no way does that make you a horrible person, so get that out of your mind. A horrible person doing a horrible thing, which you are by the way, would not give a Damm and certainly would not be on a public forum trying to figure out how to stop this behavior.

[WakingUp]

Oh never mind

[elaine567]

It's hard to separate the fact that you are doing a horrible thing, from you as a person because there is an expectation that we should be responsible for our behaviour.

 

I think that is the crux of the matter. Responsibility for one's actions.

 

If a person defrauds, steals or murders they take away from another person something that is precious to them, whether that be their living, the diamond ring they inherited, or their only son.

People who have apparently no compassion and take away things from others, are in the main looked upon as horrible people, because they essentially betray trust.

OK they may also love animals, give to charity or adore their granny, but by their actions, it exposes a part of their character that is seen as "horrible", and we then view that person as being a horrible person.

 

If we then look at cheating, a cheater with apparently no compassion, similarly wants to take away from another person something that is precious to them, ie their husband, their wife, their marriage, their family, their home, their lifestyle.

They essentially betray trust too again and again, and that I guess, does make them horrible people.

 

However are they irredeemably "horrible", if they truly want to change and make amends? I would guess not.

[Lion Heart]

Hi Cinnimon and blu,

 

Just b4 I respond, I wanted you (APs) to know that I found LS about 4w after my D Day. For 2+ months after that I saw the OW / OM section and shivered. I got brave enough to venture in to this section very recently and amidst the devastation of my beautiful family, children, future we had that I'm almost certain will not happen. I just SO want to help!!!! I wanted to scream out NO for the sakes of having to live with yourself don't do it. Stop, change, be someone YOU are proud to be. It pains me to see your pain.

X

LH

PS: can't do fancy bolding etc from my phone. My responses are next to LH.

PPS: I am only referring to my specific situation, no generalizations thought or made but patterns emerge!

 

Lion Heart

Not to thread jack but I have to ask you , when you asked your WH what would have have happened if the A hadn't been exposed, what was his response?

 

LH: To be fair to WH I'll put it in context. WH had stopped the A 1m b4 my D Day. That month was the happiest of our M since children. The longest period of his attention to our family. It didn't take much, honestly, he was warmer, in a better mood, more loving and patient and not mean to us all. We were all SO HAPPY. WH and I were so in love that everyone who saw us called us honeymooners. We were having "reconciliation sex" but b4 my knowledge of his A remember. Very sad for me now.

 

WH said he NEVER would have told me. He would've taken that secret to his grave. He was afraid that he'd crack under the cloud of deception but he couldn't bare the thought of me knowing. He knew it would break my heart in 2. He knew as my last M ended this way and I was WAY better off. I would do the same again in a heartbeat. This one I was more entangled with.

 

Cinni

I know that I was GROOMED by MM to stay involved in the A,looking back I also groomed myself. Did I ever think about the W and the child, yes I did but slowly in listening to him more than I listened to myself I was able to "believe" that in his "bad" marriage that he would be doing them a favor by leaving them to be in an "honest" relationship with me. Sounds so stupid to me now but at the time it was how I could live with myself and do what I was doing.

 

LH: The OW in my WH A asked a million questions of WH. On my D Day, I got OWs story FIRST. Got WH story later and even though she asked very relevant questions, most times she answered them herself AND proceeded to imagine / assume

WAY TOO much. WH gave her half truths or a fraction of the truth or blatantly lied to her face. eg. Because he wanted sex from her, she assumed we didn't have a sexual relationship. EVEN when we had a weekend away alone together & she knew about it, she ASSUMED we didn't have sex. WH let her assume anything as long as it was in line with his manipulation tactics.

When I told her that "sex is what MARRIED people do". She still believed her OWN version of make believe. So I told her when, how often & other details she scoffed at. I held firm that both she and I were lied to. She was wailing. Nothing he said was "true". He lied by omissions about everything.

 

Cinni

I used to ask him if he had ever talked to his wife about how he felt in his marriage and he would say no, which astounded me. In the end I began to truly understand while he professing his love and future faking BS that the ONE of the main reasons he would never leave is because he would have to walk out on a spouse that had no clue why he was doing so. He would have to admit to her that he never said anything about how he was feeling (if he really felt that way at all).

He was a liar. He was a manipulator.

He was a cheater. I had become a liar, a cheater and a manipulator too and why, because I loved him. That isn't what love is supposed to be, feel or do.

 

LH: IMHO yes WSs must lie & manipulate on both sides to get their way. Cake-eating.

My WH tried SO SO HARD to blame ME for his A in numerous ways since my D Day, most of the reasons were ridiculous and no doubt things OW said to justify HER participation.

Firstly, there is NO justification.

Secondly, my WH said he could never talk to me about anything. This is a blatant lie, he had no trouble at all criticizing everything I did or said or whatever. When pressed EVENTUALLY he came up with: I couldn't talk to you about my DESIRE to have an A for the sake of it. Everyone (which turned out to be in movies / TV shows, not anyone we knew) raved about how exciting an A is, so I just wanted to see what it was all about. Right.

Another thing is that it was a "revenge A" not to me being unfaithful in any way but because of (see list below sigh)

Lastly and not an exhaustive list here, he's been jealous of ME for years! Because he says (his words):

1) I'm more self disciplined than him

2) I've studied and achieved degrees at Uni (YEARS b4 I met him). HE wanted to go to Uni. He never finished a cert of ANY type until we married. Since then he's changed careers 5x. I supported every change to make him "happy". Cost our family a MINT. He's changing it again this year ....sigh. I was still applying and receiving Scholarships to study after we M. He wanted those (not interested in them, wanted the same opportunities. "The harder I work, the luckier I get." He doesn't work hard at anything).

3) I'm popular. I've got lots of friends. I tried to include him & he could've made friends with gf Hs but they're not his type. Yes they work hard, they support their families and they're faithful to their wives.... I think.

4) I've got a good job paying almost 3 figures. Instead of being happy that I paid the huge mortgage on a house HE just had to have plus paid out 4 credit cards of his plus paid everything for the kids and all holidays. I never much said NO to him. He was jealous not happy.

 

Cinni

I am actually tearing up right now typing this because it hurts to know I was so stupid in believing anything someone cheating on their spouse would say.......

 

LH: I'm so so sorry you feel sad about a using pr*** who led you down the garden path.

Break ups in regular relationships are hard enough. I can't imagine your frustration.

Let's face it. Both BSs and APs usually are led on during a WSs A. The difference is that if you knew he was M that's your very 1st Red Flag. I'm not beating you up. Please recognize that first red flag because what's written in it is: I can't wait to reel you in, use you up and when I'm done you'll be in a crying heap.

NB: I will ALWAYS be grateful that OW forced the truth out and made my D Day happen. Ofcourse I should've known. Her ploy was to "get him". She cheered up immensely over the phone that night when I said "OW you are SO WELCOME to the pos, I only hope you can afford him! He'll be kicked out tonight."

She waited and waited. WH never had any intentions of being with her as a couple. Ever. He said he would've been embarrassed because she's a fruitloop. In fact he HATED her. She feigned a heart attack that night about 1am. She waited. She texted WH phone non-stop. About 13 texts per hour for the next 4days UNTIL my MIL phoned her and said to back off. They argued. MIL had her sacked from her volunteer religious instructors job. By the end of that week both WH and OW were sacked. She tried to have him charged with sexual assault. Police got involved. What a circus and I just sat back and said "look where your P led to".

 

Lion Heart.

[Blu72]

I do want to clarify something - In no way was I trying to say I am being hit on at work on a regular basis. Yes it has happened in the past where men have tried to flirt and start something up and their advances were immediately shut down by me. I was attempting to compare those few instances where I never dreamed of allowing that to happen to my current situation. MM and I worked together for 11 years before anything ever occurred so it really came out of left field. We interacted only at work and strictly professional through out those 11 years. I never thought about him outside of our professional day to day interactions. So it's not like we cultivated some intense friendship over the years that led to this. It just literally came out of left field for me. Yes I was in a bad place at the time, so I am sure that is what led to me letting my guard down. Horrible choices followed that otherwise I would like to think I would not have made. But ultimately there are no excuses and those bad decisions will haunt me till the day I die.

[atreides]

Only thing i want to add is to this theme of "men needing sex more" or signal confusion.

 

I call BS, (i attended way too many business happy hours and got hit on by women single/married to personally know) Both sexes think about it, i would say the same, however the sexes approach it differently.

 

For every man that gets labeled this kind of "horny walking erection" there is always a receiving end somewhere to match or happy to please.

[dreamingoftigers]

 

Please don't second-guess your self-worth, blu.

 

Always question your behaviours.

 

Don't question your worth as a person.

[georgia girl]

I've thought a lot about this question because in a way, it relates to why I post here. A little background: my father had a long-term affair with his former secretary. Unfortunately, I found out when I was young - by accident - and it had a fairly devastating effect on me. Today, my father and mom have reconciled and they are good. Dad and I have also reconciled, something I would have at one point said would never happen.

 

 

So, my answer is not as simple as my life's story. I think the answer is, it depends on your perspective and it's all situational.

 

 

At one point, I thought my dad was horrible. He did horrible things. Hurt me, my family and my mom in unimaginable ways. And all because he did not have appropriate boundaries and had an inferiority complex the size of a house. My father was always "the good guy" - the guy everyone asked to help them with a house repair, to sit on the town council, etc. Problem was, he couldn't derive his own worth from within and needed external validation. Along came another woman who provided him that validation. During that time, he was horrible. He was selfish, self-absorbed and self-centered. At one point, he also said some awful untruths. He said my mom never paid attention to him. Really? So, how was it that dinner was always served within 5 minutes of his arrival? She focused only on us kids. Really? So why did she plan vacations to his brother's house up north each year? Or make sure his favorite things were in the 'fridge. He was horrible. When I look back at that time and the man he was then, he was simply horrible.

 

 

But then, he turned it around. He started making smart choices. Had an incredible health scare and in that moment, genuinely realized what he had been gambling. My dad then did the work on himself and made it up to my mom, which ultimately made it up to me. Now, he's a good guy again in my eyes.

 

 

My dad's other woman, unfortunately for me, will always be horrible. Not only did her actions with my dad feel "horrible" to me, but she did some awful things personally to me, my siblings and my mother all in an attempt to hurt us when my dad ended the affair.

 

 

However, if you were to ask my dad's other woman's children, I'm sure that they find my parents and our family to be "the horrible ones." They saw their mom get hurt when my dad's promises faded away - and they blamed us for making dad stay. You see? It's all a matter of perspective.

 

 

Blu, you ask if you are horrible. To me, you could never be horrible. You appear thoughtful, hurt, compassionate, helpful to others and insightful about your own situation. Would your partner's spouse, your own spouse or any children think you are? Right now, yes. But that's really just a temporary state - not a permanent state of being. It's changeable, its fixable and mostly, it's simply a matter of perspective. Maybe what is most important overall, is whether or not you think you are horrible. We cannot validate you - you have to do that yourself.

 

 

Take some time and figure out what it takes for you to get yourself back to good in your own eyes. If your married partner is truly the love of your life, then you should do honorable things at home. Tell your spouse honestly, talk to your kids, make plans to leave and be equitable in the distribution of assets. When others rage, keep calm but don't let others abuse you either.

 

 

If your married partner is not the love of your life and this was a time/tide when you did something for whatever reasons that you did, start to live authentically again. Be honest, be kind. Be willing to work hard. Be willing to forgive past hurts as you will ask others to forgive yours.

 

 

YOU are not a horrible person. Some may see you as horrible, but will give you the opportunity to fix it. Others may never give you that opportunity. All of it is okay as long as you see yourself as good. That's really all who matters in this.

 

 

Good luck. Sorry for my rambling post.

 

 

GG

[Blu72]

I've thought a lot about this question because in a way, it relates to why I post here. A little background: my father had a long-term affair with his former secretary. Unfortunately, I found out when I was young - by accident - and it had a fairly devastating effect on me. Today, my father and mom have reconciled and they are good. Dad and I have also reconciled, something I would have at one point said would never happen.

 

 

So, my answer is not as simple as my life's story. I think the answer is, it depends on your perspective and it's all situational.

 

 

At one point, I thought my dad was horrible. He did horrible things. Hurt me, my family and my mom in unimaginable ways. And all because he did not have appropriate boundaries and had an inferiority complex the size of a house. My father was always "the good guy" - the guy everyone asked to help them with a house repair, to sit on the town council, etc. Problem was, he couldn't derive his own worth from within and needed external validation. Along came another woman who provided him that validation. During that time, he was horrible. He was selfish, self-absorbed and self-centered. At one point, he also said some awful untruths. He said my mom never paid attention to him. Really? So, how was it that dinner was always served within 5 minutes of his arrival? She focused only on us kids. Really? So why did she plan vacations to his brother's house up north each year? Or make sure his favorite things were in the 'fridge. He was horrible. When I look back at that time and the man he was then, he was simply horrible.

 

 

But then, he turned it around. He started making smart choices. Had an incredible health scare and in that moment, genuinely realized what he had been gambling. My dad then did the work on himself and made it up to my mom, which ultimately made it up to me. Now, he's a good guy again in my eyes.

 

 

My dad's other woman, unfortunately for me, will always be horrible. Not only did her actions with my dad feel "horrible" to me, but she did some awful things personally to me, my siblings and my mother all in an attempt to hurt us when my dad ended the affair.

 

 

However, if you were to ask my dad's other woman's children, I'm sure that they find my parents and our family to be "the horrible ones." They saw their mom get hurt when my dad's promises faded away - and they blamed us for making dad stay. You see? It's all a matter of perspective.

 

 

Blu, you ask if you are horrible. To me, you could never be horrible. You appear thoughtful, hurt, compassionate, helpful to others and insightful about your own situation. Would your partner's spouse, your own spouse or any children think you are? Right now, yes. But that's really just a temporary state - not a permanent state of being. It's changeable, its fixable and mostly, it's simply a matter of perspective. Maybe what is most important overall, is whether or not you think you are horrible. We cannot validate you - you have to do that yourself.

 

 

Take some time and figure out what it takes for you to get yourself back to good in your own eyes. If your married partner is truly the love of your life, then you should do honorable things at home. Tell your spouse honestly, talk to your kids, make plans to leave and be equitable in the distribution of assets. When others rage, keep calm but don't let others abuse you either.

 

 

If your married partner is not the love of your life and this was a time/tide when you did something for whatever reasons that you did, start to live authentically again. Be honest, be kind. Be willing to work hard. Be willing to forgive past hurts as you will ask others to forgive yours.

 

 

YOU are not a horrible person. Some may see you as horrible, but will give you the opportunity to fix it. Others may never give you that opportunity. All of it is okay as long as you see yourself as good. That's really all who matters in this.

 

 

Good luck. Sorry for my rambling post.

 

 

GG

 

GG,

Thank you so very much for your thoughtful post. It made me cry, but in a way that was extremely cathartic. It was the release I needed. I am sorry for your pain, I too went thru something similar with my parents when I was a child. My father 'thought' he was having an EA with a co-worker but she only saw him as a friend and was completely unaware of his feelings for her. He came clean to my mother on his own and told her he was in love with this woman (it was not mutual). Anyway there was obvious fallout but they never divorced. My parents had a lot of issues prior to this, so it wasn't surprising when you look back at all of it. This is one of the main reasons why I don't understand how I got here in this place. I always vowed I would never ever be *that* person. People would often even comment on my hatred of cheaters because I always made my stance adamantly known to anyone who talked about the subject. I just don't know what changed in me that allowed me to do this. But I'm working to get the answers. Your post helped me relive some things that I needed to remember. Thank you.

[goodyblue]

I think we are all human and make mistakes. I have only met one person who was truly horrible, and he has not changed in the 25 years I have known him. He always leaves misery in his wake.

 

Try not to beat yourself up, just try to do better. Xx

[Tayla]

point blank, the act and deception is a negative. The feelings are the sensor /gage. i refuse to coddle a wayward adult. Ask yourself if your behavior is worthy of respect by peers and relatives... If they aren't then... there's your answer.

 

WS/AP had a shovel, dug the hole, jumped in it, and then go about telling the world they tripped and fell in the hole that mysteriously showed up as they were out on a leisurely stroll. they don't want out of the hole, they simply want passer byers to believe they "fell" into it... thats the lie the world hears...so can they have a pillow and blanket since they made this their new home away from home.

[gettingstronger]

Interesting question, as I read through all the threads the definition of who is horrible changes depending on the thread. So many paint the MM as horrible when he does the OW wrong but nary a mention of what the APs were doing to their spouses before the affair soured. I guess horrible is in eye of the beholder. We are all guilty of seeing horrible from our own POV.