Don't know where this is going ...

[flowergirl14]

I just posted on another thread that I'd just realized that I've had two STDs in my life from my husband. It had never occurred to me before. It is upsetting, depressing, angering, disturbing and just awful.

 

For some reason, I never get angry. I just get depressed. So very, very sad. I know I've written about this. I understand it from my therapist - Depression is just anger repressed. And I can't help it.

 

It's partly my WH's inability to deal with it in a way that helps me. I realized this - about the STDs - about an hour ago. He was out at the time. He came back about 30 minutes ago and I told him. About 15 minutes later he was muttering something like this: I can't stand this any more. I just want out.

I answered: Fine. Go ahead. (then added) Do you want to talk?

I decided to tell him how I felt. I broke down after a while and left. He said nothing. He never says anything.

 

I know everyone will just say what the hell, mm, why do you do this to yourself Why do you stay?

 

Just help me, please, with what's going on. Why it's so hard. Why he can't do right by me even now. I know but I don't know.

 

I really just feel like such a loser for having been so naive and stupid for so many years and for not being able to feel entitled like everyone else.

 

I feel really fragile.

 

I can relate to the not feeling angry and wanting the person to treat you the way you should be treated. My heart goes out to you. The only rational explanation is that no matter how badly you want him to change or be the husband you want he wont ever be. I think your aware of this and grieving this reality. You are grieving not what he's done but that this persin doesnt love you enough to stop cheating. He doesnt love you enough to have never cheated in the first place. Work on loving you. Its a journey that Im on. Its not something that will take place overnight. Have hope that you'll one day love you and your future more than him and then you will break free and lead a better authentic life! I want this too! As a side note.. as a society we ask why do people murder others, rob banks, rape whatever. Because they want to and they can. No rational explanation. Cheating isnt rational its selfish, and devestating.

[drifter777]

And you, BH, know my husband so well. You're my go-to when I just need to hear somebody go ballistic on my behalf. But guess what? My brother did that for me. I mean, in his way. Straight up honest facts about what was wrong about what he did TO ME and what's f-ked up about him. (definitely wasn't a fan already) He doesn't do ballistic but he was great. You would've liked it.

I'm very glad you brother stepped up for you. You owe him a debt that really cannot be re-paid. I'm sure you know that.

 

Let me add one thing: I tried to help - I really tried And I am very happy that you got through the worst and still continue to heal.

[Noirek]

I'm very glad you brother stepped up for you. You owe him a debt that really cannot be re-paid. I'm sure you know that.

 

Let me add one thing: I tried to help - I really tried And I am very happy that you got through the worst and still continue to heal.

 

Or he was just being a decent brother and stepping up. No debts. Just thankfulness for him in her life.

[LivingWaterPlease]

Ten characters

[Lion Heart]

Apologies for the t/j mm

Lionheart, I honestly think you need to write a book. You have interesting perspectives and it sounds like you have a lot of interesting people to draw from. I would buy it.

 

Shared apologies dearest Mermaid, ls members would be getting it at cost. After what we've been through? We deserve a perk or million!

I've started writing it today. Couldn't hold back the tide.

Lion Heart

[drifter777]

Or he was just being a decent brother and stepping up. No debts. Just thankfulness for him in her life.

What are you talking about - who is "her"?

[Lion Heart]

....

You are grieving not what he's done but that this person doesn't love you enough to stop cheating. He doesn't love you enough to have never cheated in the first place.

Merrmeade,

Are we the most analytical bunch of think tankers the world has? Lol. I reckon so. How lucky are we??

 

Flowergirl and others I really like processing what's being presented. There's so much sense to be made from a seemingly NON-sensical situation we find ourselves dealing with.

 

As we are frustrated about the behaviours of some WSs at least at times. What are those behaviours we are frustrated with?

It's not to create MORE to harp about to WSs but to gain understandings, so we can "get" them and through this, assist our acceptance.

 

The list has got to include:

* disregard of their spouses (to begin the A)

* carelessness about the effects the A may have on anyone else

* overblown entitlement

* selfishness

* lack of empathy

* being duplicitous

* controlling behaviours - overt or subversive

* immaturity

* lack of "love" or less love than we have??

* lack of commitment in a "committed" relationship

* unfaithful

* built up resentment toward their BS

* hiding from consequences

* lack of forward thinking (my WH called it "lack of delayed gratification" - not what I mean at all but he has this around saving $$ and studious beh to achieve his desired profession).

* lack of honesty

* ability to lie, deceive and manipulate others

* irresponsible

Any more?

 

So I'm asking do WSs appear like ^^^^ in other sectors of their lives, as mine certainly does, or do some actually only manifest these as part of their A?

 

Like, what are we ACTUALLY DEALING with?

 

We could be describing myriad of personality disorders etc.

 

Is our MAIN ISSUE in R that we WANT to see them now as we used to perceive them?

Do we just want them to change to meet our needs?

 

It's almost like there's a progression of reactions / behaviours that BSs in R display. Does anyone else see this?

Not in order:

Shock

Disbelief

Horror

Grief

Partial acceptance

Standing up for our standards

And the list goes on here. Is it a cycle that if we knew it, as in grief, we could peg where we are at certain points since D Day?

 

Is the secret of a "successful R" purely ACCEPTANCE after we know whatever it is about our WSs and their A and reasons for them? Or ACCEPTANCE regardless?

 

Questioning Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

Gosh forgot to mention. The reason Flowergirls post sent a stream of thoughts going for me is this: my WH said to me the other night "You've got to know that I've never been more in love with ANYONE in my whole entire life and I'm certain that if we split, I'd never be able to love anyone as much as you".

 

I listened intently but WOAH WHAT? ???

 

Is a WSs "undying love" (and other things we wait to see)

just simply marred by character flaws?

 

Lion Heart.

[Bittersweetie]

MM,

 

I'm a fWS. I worked my butt off after d-day on my issues, on supporting my H, on our relationship. It makes me angry that you are giving your WH another chance and he is not taking advantage of it. A second chance like this is not a given...it's a gift. Does he even understand that? I am thankful every day for the second chance my H gave me.

 

It is not an easy thing to know that you (the WS) has been the bad guy. That you have hurt people. That you have to own it to get through it. I did those things and more, and not only am I a much healthier person, I am much happier. I am a better person for me, for my H, for my son. It is unfortunate that your H is stuck looking at the short game and doesn't even see the long term.

 

It seems to me that there are some WS who, while maybe not right away, do understand the pain that they have caused and own it and make positive changes, even if there is no R. I feel if your H hasn't gotten there by now, he isn't going to, and isn't going to be able to give you what you need.

 

My thoughts are with you,

BSW

 

ETA: Not angry at you! Angry that your H doesn't get what gift he is being given.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Bittersweetie
Wording messed up!

[Mrs. John Adams]

Merrmeade...you are such a strong lady. I so admire you. I hope and pray someday...your wh...will see the gift you have given him...and will cherish the way you deserve.

 

It may be slow in coming....don't give up on him....I hear you say things that give me hope...that he will eventually get it.

 

Sending hugs and well wishes your way. I am sorry you have to deal with this crap.

 

If I could...I would wave a magic wand and make all this crap go away.

 

Happy Easter ....I hope it is a beautiful day for you...full of hope and promise.

[merrmeade]

What are you talking about - who is "her"?

she means that he is my brother. No endebtedness; he was already that, but I can be thankful that he's in my life (and I'll add) in this way at this time.

 

Also, flower girl, LH, use my thread for anything you like. It's all related in this forum. Every aspect is a result of some part of a domino effect so tj-ing is not possible.

 

How crazy is it that I get the love and validation I need from people I've never seen.

 

I kept hearing Diana Ross and the supremes in my head yesterday, singing "I'll be there to love and comfort you..." Because everybody just showed up instantly.

 

Another observation (iPhone posts are good for me) - each crisis, usually b/c of TT, cycles through certain stages to resolution progressively faster each time. As ms A said, W shows tiny beads of progress...

[merrmeade]

MM,

 

I'm a fWS. I worked my butt off after d-day on my issues, on supporting my H, on our relationship. It makes me angry that you are giving your WH another chance and he is not taking advantage of it. A second chance like this is not a given...it's a gift. Does he even understand that? I am thankful every day for the second chance my H gave me.

 

It is not an easy thing to know that you (the WS) has been the bad guy. That you have hurt people. That you have to own it to get through it. I did those things and more, and not only am I a much healthier person, I am much happier. I am a better person for me, for my H, for my son. It is unfortunate that your H is stuck looking at the short game and doesn't even see the long term.

 

It seems to me that there are some WS who, while maybe not right away, do understand the pain that they have caused and own it and make positive changes, even if there is no R. I feel if your H hasn't gotten there by now, he isn't going to, and isn't going to be able to give you what you need.

 

My thoughts are with you,

BSW

 

ETA: Not angry at you! Angry that your H doesn't get what gift he is being given.

i really like and appreciate the gusto (I said 'guts' but like what spellcheck chgd it to) behind this post. Thanks.

[LifeWasted]

I have alot of admiration for you merrmeade. No way could I do what you are doing. Good luck.

[Lion Heart]

Merrmeade and others

 

I love your post about feeling the love from us. It's just THE most comforting thing. The empathy, understanding, support and LEARNING we get from ls, I can't begin to describe but it's great. The wider I read on the different forums, the more I realize that for many of us, LS is the only place we can get ALL those things wrapped together. It's not just about working THEM out but working ourselves out.

 

Now one poster said somewhere about BSs dilemma after the A (or As) come out that it's a matter of making a choice from 2 crappy options. Stay or go. Both crappy but which is the LEAST crappy? And yes who has that crystal ball but it's still up to BSs IF their spouse wants to R.

 

Those of us in "shaky Rs" like I describe of mine. Or "confusing Rs" or "suspected false Rs" and let's face it, this last one just HAS to be in the back of our minds SOMEWHERE unless and only until..... we can have the confidence to know somehow that we reached a "successful R".

 

I guess a successful R is different to each couple.

 

For me (and I know myself well enough) I know that I will always "feel" the shadow of by WH A forever. I know BECAUSE I WAS FOOLED. Completely and utterly fooled by him. He played me like a fiddle. I trusted his fidelity almost 99%. He said ALL the right things to make sure I'd never suspect. Because of my dreams about him and an OW, different OWs every time, about 7 dreams over the period of 2.5y. I started to feel GUILTY about my dreams! I did HAVE to tell him about them because I was SO shaken up about them each time. The dream I had a few months b4 his A began, he actually yelled at me about them. In this one I was pounding heavily on thick glass screaming "No don't do it H. Please don't do it!" I was crying so hard in my dream that I woke up sobbing. This is the one he yelled at me about. Then after he got a 2nd job (not my idea) I had a dream about him and an OW in the storeroom there. This is WHERE he met her. He was totally calm when I told H about this one. Then not another dream like this till after D Day. During his A, not precipitated by me, he said "You should trust your instincts Lion Heart, they're usually SPOT...ON". I asked him to expand and he wouldn't. I questioned him about an OW and he said "don't be stupid blah blah, cheating blah".

 

I majorly digressed but to ask this. What our instincts saying to us before and AFTER D Day? My motherly side is battling with herself when I consider leaving. It may be a horrible thought but when I do date after D, what if the bf is a pedophile? Or to a much larger chance, when my DD esp but DSs too are with my exWH for his weekends, it's a chance they're at risk of harm in many levels. Many members of WH family have been molested, not by family but by others. Their religion is rife with it and they've all rug-swept every disclosure, even blaming the child for being too attractive. It sickens me. My DD is very beautiful. Long blond hair down to her legs. I'm fearful of the safety of my chn should we D.

 

Gosh merrmeade I digress again.

 

I'm trying to figure out my FEARS of D.

 

And my fears of R.

 

For now I choose to have WH here and not D because even though the kids have child protection lessons at school and I reinforce those at home. As chn left in certain company and a non-vigilant parent, without a doubt they're at risk.

 

So the TT of my mind ticking off reasons to stay or D are coming down and my reasoning of each leans very heavily on STAYING. Yes until they're grown. They are FAR too precious. As every child is ofcourse. But given what I know for facts about WH family's "secrets". I'm keeping us together for their protection. I don't suspect WH. No. But as his past behaviours show, he cannot be trusted. So when DD is 16 I want him out. I don't trust that he wouldn't be VERY slimy indeed about her friends.

 

Just 2 of my TT lately.

 

Leaning heavily toward keeping WH here but I've already told him today, only until the chn are grown. WH wants to stay. He wants to R (maybe) he says he does. I don't imagine that his entire character could be overhauled in that time. WH is confident he'll show me. Well there you go.

 

I'm on guard. If R gets too ridiculous from here then I will D before but I'll certainly expose the whole family pedophile archive to Court and have supervised access only.

 

Lion Heart.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Wow LH...honestly...if I harbored the fears you have..I fear I would walk.

 

I don't think I could live in fear...there are lots of things I could deal with...but constant fear is not one of them.

 

Especially where my children or grandchildren are concerned. No man is worth that.

 

Honestly...when I read some of the stories here..it truly breaks my heart. I know I was a horrible person...and I know what I did to my dh....and I cannot imagine how we could have survived what some of you have gone through. All I can say is thank you God for my husband...for his strength...for his commitment and for his love. He pulled us through...he brought us out of the depths of hell.

 

Hugs to you LH.....you sweet woman. You make me weep and humble me.

[merrmeade]

Leaning heavily toward keeping WH here but I've already told him today, only until the chn are grown. WH wants to stay. He wants to R (maybe) he says he does. I don't imagine that his entire character could be overhauled in that time. WH is confident he'll show me. Well there you go.

 

I'm on guard. If R gets too ridiculous from here then I will D before but I'll certainly expose the whole family pedophile archive to Court and have supervised access only.

 

Lion Heart.

From the little I've read about your WH, I don't think this is unreasonable ONLY because you say he himself wants IC and because he accepts his NPD diagnosis. That's a huge thing right there, nevermind, how far along he's gotten in his ability to reinterpret his life and all his interactions from the what he's learned and (we hope) will learn. It takes time. I don't expect anything at all and so I'm vaguely surprised when I realize something positive just happened. It's very relative. But you have lots more reason to be hopeful.

 

Just wanted to say one more positive thing I see in your favor that MAY a margin of consideration for R: two halves of the same thing actually. The fact that you are so anti-WH, don't give a damn, ready to kick his sorry ass permanently to the curb, and have de facto made every shift possible away from him. THAT fact, it seemed to me, was a MAJOR factor in his having made the dramatic changes he has made so far in terms of commitment, rededication, etc.

 

Couple of reading suggestions for you:

Book my therapist recommended now that we've got the N word out there:

1. The Object of My Affection Is in My Reflection: Coping with Narcissists by Rokelle Lerner. I'm getting a lot out of it: For starters, the fact that these people do have holes in their psyches from real damage done. I'm glad there are people out there sympathizing with narcissists since it's so easy to be disgusted with them.
   
2. Early threads (any actually) by Spark1111. She's one who kicked her H to the curb and he wouldn't let go. She has a lot to say about the apparent effectiveness of her actions post d-day. She basically kicked him out, and he came crawling back, begging to be allowed to stay and prove himself. Her contention, and many others, is that this complete 180 is what makes them desperate enough to reform for real.

[Lion Heart]

From the little I've read about your WH, I don't think this is unreasonable ONLY because you say he himself wants IC and because he accepts his NPD diagnosis. That's a huge thing right there, nevermind, how far along he's gotten in his ability to reinterpret his life and all his interactions from the what he's learned and (we hope) will learn. It takes time. I don't expect anything at all and so I'm vaguely surprised when I realize something positive just happened. It's very relative. But you have lots more reason to be hopeful.

 

Just wanted to say one more positive thing I see in your favor that MAY a margin of consideration for R: two halves of the same thing actually. The fact that you are so anti-WH, don't give a damn, ready to kick his sorry ass permanently to the curb, and have de facto made every shift possible away from him. THAT fact, it seemed to me, was a MAJOR factor in his having made the dramatic changes he has made so far in terms of commitment, rededication, etc.

 

Couple of reading suggestions for you:

Book my therapist recommended now that we've got the N word out there:

1. The Object of My Affection Is in My Reflection: Coping with Narcissists by Rokelle Lerner. I'm getting a lot out of it: For starters, the fact that these people do have holes in their psyches from real damage done. I'm glad there are people out there sympathizing with narcissists since it's so easy to be disgusted with them.
   
2. Early threads (any actually) by Spark1111. She's one who kicked her H to the curb and he wouldn't let go. She has a lot to say about the apparent effectiveness of her actions post d-day. She basically kicked him out, and he came crawling back, begging to be allowed to stay and prove himself. Her contention, and many others, is that this complete 180 is what makes them desperate enough to reform for real.

 

Thankyou so much for your response. I actually said to WH only 2d ago that the reason why he hasn't REALLY pulled his socks up and followed all advice from the psychs, OH and followed HIS OWN advice is BECAUSE I didn't kick his butt to the curb then keep him out.

 

You see for the month b4 D Day he was an angel. Yep a whole month. Lol. But this month's behaviour was motivated by guilt etc. Unbeknownst to me.

 

SINCE D Day it's seriously like a demon has possessed WH 50-75% of the time! He'd be narky and picky and mean b4 dotted and dashed with "just enough" kindness & gentleness to keep us all hanging in there... I think. "Dance of the Narcissist" a counsellor told me it's called.

 

NOW it's landmine territory. You'd think I WOULD BE able to claim that territory for a while (and I did for a month post D Day) but he OWNS that country. He's gone beserk, for him that is.

He has 1% patience for anything.

 

He said he's "struggling" with everything.

 

I think he ultimately knows that if he moves out, EVEN IF I GAVE him a hall pass to come back in a month - 6m which I wouldn't do, moves to his parents OR any of his friends houses, then he'll be way back B4 square 1.

The villifying he's done of me to them all plus his "woe is me" attitude to them all makes them want to keep him coddled up like a baby, because he seriously behaves like one.

 

I'm going to Ks next week and she may get time to explain what's going on. We may not get the time.

 

WH says that the EXPOSURE of who he really is to people (barely told a soul offline) including the A is completely embarrassing. The remorse appears to be from the EXPOSURE.

WH is nowhere accepting any diagnoses. In fact things are getting worse (do they have to???) rather than better at all.

I think he appeases me by our chats. He never wants to talk, ever unless it's about his plans to go fishing or some other distraction. Right now, unless a completely misguided comment is made by WH, I actually don't want to talk with him at all. His temper tantrums are worse than I've seen all my chn do PUT TOGETHER.

 

So what's been happening since D Day and has reached exponential proportions is the name calling. WH favourites atm are that I'm a liar, manipulative, b****, sneaky and once even called me a cheat! Bang. I had him. He's describing himself.

He's ALL of those things.

 

Today at my DD house he had a mini tantrum. I was calm as usual. I said "go away and calm down" which was his catch phrase when I've been angry over serious deception all our relationship. I'm saying it to him now. HE HATES IT.

He wouldn't go away. I told him not to swear in my DDs house, it ramped up. DD got involved and he angrily lied his a$$ off to her! Calling me all those ^^^^^ things above. DD ALREADY thinks I've shown WAY more patience, kindness and love to him since D Day when I should've kicked him out.

"Mum is not those things. WH calm down." He didn't. ....

 

So because he's written a rule book for ME wider than the Parliamentary records. Yet WH has NO RULES whatsoever. I'm just quoting "the rule" he set that he's breaking and he's going mental! (Apparently because I'm not allowing him to be King by being a subject in servitude to him anymore - yeah Narcissism again).

 

So our R (??) may resemble some others and I'm certain not to be the only one living with the N ramped way up post D Day, I wanted to share.

 

WH is absolutely infuriated that I'm not just handing over 10s of $1000s of dollars of my money to him to renovate the house, pay the mortgage or do with as he wants. I'm not putting 1c into the house until it's in my name only. Tantrum. 180.

 

I have a definite view of my future in blocks of time.

Now - relationship unrecognizable as anything. Work on myself, my health. Raise chn. Change all family traditions. Plan holidays. Do what I can do.

DD turns 13 - house transferred. FT work. Complete renos. Move if we have to. Rent out house.

From then on - raise 3 teens. Blissfully!

 

It's such a complicated time pulling apart each element of the M and family we HAD. It's not ever going to be even close to the same. I have the patience of Job but this requires supreme divine intervention! Lol.

 

Gonna go work on my yoga / meditation room now. No doubt this will sh** WH to tears like everything else I do / don't do / think / don't think etc. Too hard.

 

Meditating Lion Heart.

[Lion Heart]

MM,

I will get those titles too.

I've got FIVE to read already.

Xxx LH

[merrmeade]

Thankyou so much for your response. I actually said to WH only 2d ago that the reason why he hasn't REALLY pulled his socks up and followed all advice from the psychs, OH and followed HIS OWN advice is BECAUSE I didn't kick his butt to the curb then keep him out.

 

You see for the month b4 D Day he was an angel. Yep a whole month. Lol. But this month's behaviour was motivated by guilt etc. Unbeknownst to me.

 

SINCE D Day it's seriously like a demon has possessed WH 50-75% of the time! He'd be narky and picky and mean b4 dotted and dashed with "just enough" kindness & gentleness to keep us all hanging in there... I think. "Dance of the Narcissist" a counsellor told me it's called.

 

NOW it's landmine territory. You'd think I WOULD BE able to claim that territory for a while (and I did for a month post D Day) but he OWNS that country. He's gone beserk, for him that is.

He has 1% patience for anything.

 

He said he's "struggling" with everything.

 

I think he ultimately knows that if he moves out, EVEN IF I GAVE him a hall pass to come back in a month - 6m which I wouldn't do, moves to his parents OR any of his friends houses, then he'll be way back B4 square 1.

The villifying he's done of me to them all plus his "woe is me" attitude to them all makes them want to keep him coddled up like a baby, because he seriously behaves like one.

 

I'm going to Ks next week and she may get time to explain what's going on. We may not get the time.

 

WH says that the EXPOSURE of who he really is to people (barely told a soul offline) including the A is completely embarrassing. The remorse appears to be from the EXPOSURE.

WH is nowhere accepting any diagnoses. In fact things are getting worse (do they have to???) rather than better at all.

I think he appeases me by our chats. He never wants to talk, ever unless it's about his plans to go fishing or some other distraction. Right now, unless a completely misguided comment is made by WH, I actually don't want to talk with him at all. His temper tantrums are worse than I've seen all my chn do PUT TOGETHER.

 

So what's been happening since D Day and has reached exponential proportions is the name calling. WH favourites atm are that I'm a liar, manipulative, b****, sneaky and once even called me a cheat! Bang. I had him. He's describing himself.

He's ALL of those things.

 

Today at my DD house he had a mini tantrum. I was calm as usual. I said "go away and calm down" which was his catch phrase when I've been angry over serious deception all our relationship. I'm saying it to him now. HE HATES IT.

He wouldn't go away. I told him not to swear in my DDs house, it ramped up. DD got involved and he angrily lied his a$$ off to her! Calling me all those ^^^^^ things above. DD ALREADY thinks I've shown WAY more patience, kindness and love to him since D Day when I should've kicked him out.

"Mum is not those things. WH calm down." He didn't. ....

 

So because he's written a rule book for ME wider than the Parliamentary records. Yet WH has NO RULES whatsoever. I'm just quoting "the rule" he set that he's breaking and he's going mental! (Apparently because I'm not allowing him to be King by being a subject in servitude to him anymore - yeah Narcissism again).

 

So our R (??) may resemble some others and I'm certain not to be the only one living with the N ramped way up post D Day, I wanted to share.

 

WH is absolutely infuriated that I'm not just handing over 10s of $1000s of dollars of my money to him to renovate the house, pay the mortgage or do with as he wants. I'm not putting 1c into the house until it's in my name only. Tantrum. 180.

 

I have a definite view of my future in blocks of time.

Now - relationship unrecognizable as anything. Work on myself, my health. Raise chn. Change all family traditions. Plan holidays. Do what I can do.

DD turns 13 - house transferred. FT work. Complete renos. Move if we have to. Rent out house.

From then on - raise 3 teens. Blissfully!

 

It's such a complicated time pulling apart each element of the M and family we HAD. It's not ever going to be even close to the same. I have the patience of Job but this requires supreme divine intervention! Lol.

 

Gonna go work on my yoga / meditation room now. No doubt this will sh** WH to tears like everything else I do / don't do / think / don't think etc. Too hard.

 

Meditating Lion Heart.

So bear with me - this could probably have been organized more logically than it is, but it's a kind of parallel stream of reflections that resound with some of yours:

 

Yes, there's been a big shift for us, too, from his affect in the beginning, also "dashed with 'just enough' kindness & gentleness to keep us all hanging in there." Add to that, just enough 'truth,' too, until you seem better and/or it seems like they've given in a reasonable period of time.

 

We've done this pattern. The 'remorse' turns out to be actually shame in hiding – just like everything negative an NPD must hide. The rage slowly leaks out from behind a barely disguised, incensed facade that (a) their image of themselves – to themselves – is tarnished and that (b) somebody (you) knows the truth. This is why we don't get the Treatment they give everyone else, you realize, don't you? They know it's useless.

 

Problem is that they do not question their right and entitlement to be forgiven. The NPD assumes s/he will be forgiven. Even at the moment of their most stripped-down look at their destructive indulgence, they do not see the objects of their destruction with pathos. They assume that our need to talk about it is to point out the limitations and weaknesses that made them act badly.

 

It was a big deal this time when I said something like this to H, "You do know, don't you, that I'm talking to you about this because I need something, not because I want to do something to you?" and he said, "Yes, you need to know that I understand how you feel."

 

Maybe like my H, yours also hates the image of himself, having cheated on his dependents at their most vulnerable (in my case, right after #1 and another after #2 were born). The A he had after the birth of #1 is the most shameful to him and, therefore, the most painful to talk about (nevermind how I feel about it).

 

One thing was that my H never tried to continue the spin on the last A with my SIL. When caught, he cut the rationalizing crap instantly and called it each time OW (SIL) gave me a new color for reality post-Dday. That's been an anomaly with the rest of the NPD behavior and story-telling about the past.

 

There is a little change since D-day. I think that our awful sessions of running against brick walls are shorter, his resistance/irrationality less, and his ability to verbalize a teeny, tiny, weeny bit better.

 

Case in point: He called one of our kids' rude behavior to me in a particular situation "genetic," meaning himself. THIS kind of acknowledgement about himself is new. (Our kids may copy it sometimes but know when they do and apologize – always. He doesn't know or apologize.)

 

I think the vilifying they do is TOTALLY unconscious and comes in the form of the other person's inference when they lay out their woes. It's more subtle and cowardly than direct blame. In our case, H doesn't think or care about the assumptions being made. It's like a child wailing to parents about teachers or other kids; he tells it his distorted way to get sympathy. Truth is irrelevant.

 

There were decades of this pattern for my H, a true NPD martyr that, I think, will be the last dimension – if he ever sees it at all. That is, while getting sympathy, he also rescues the listener(s) and, thereby, gains appreciation which enhances the sympathy of the listener(s). The observer(s) thinks: If he's so helpful, humble, unassuming (to others), undemanding – in short, a martyr – then, any possible problem must be his wife's.

 

Interesting similarities to downright creepy how these guys seem to follow the same script, depending on their N type. I guess this is actually the norm. I'm beginning to think there's no lifetime long enough to get the N out of NPD.

Edited April 6, 2015 by merrmeade

[Noirek]

I did a lot of reading about NDP and how we all have narcissistic qualities but in a true NDP it is up and beyond that. And from what I gather they feed of a supply to their fragile ego. And the have a hard time if not impossible being self reflective. They are users and when their supply is cut ofd can often be verbally abusive. NDP even over sociopaths has a very low rate of success in being overcome for the very reason they have a hard time first admitting it and then learning to curb their behaviour. A sociopath (the everyday ones not the seriel killers) can see the difference and adapt their behaviour to blend. So my question in this is. If such a bleak and dark future is on the horizon with someone who is NDP how do you learn to cope with that?

[merrmeade]

I did a lot of reading about NDP and how we all have narcissistic qualities but in a true NDP it is up and beyond that. And from what I gather they feed of a supply to their fragile ego. And the have a hard time if not impossible being self reflective. They are users and when their supply is cut ofd can often be verbally abusive. NDP even over sociopaths has a very low rate of success in being overcome for the very reason they have a hard time first admitting it and then learning to curb their behaviour. A sociopath (the everyday ones not the seriel killers) can see the difference and adapt their behaviour to blend. So my question in this is. If such a bleak and dark future is on the horizon with someone who is NDP how do you learn to cope with that?

wow. I don't know the answer to that and I didn't know the extent of it. Did you?

[Lion Heart]

I did a lot of reading about NDP and how we all have narcissistic qualities but in a true NDP it is up and beyond that. And from what I gather they feed of a supply to their fragile ego. And the have a hard time if not impossible being self reflective. They are users and when their supply is cut ofd can often be verbally abusive. NDP even over sociopaths has a very low rate of success in being overcome for the very reason they have a hard time first admitting it and then learning to curb their behaviour. A sociopath (the everyday ones not the seriel killers) can see the difference and adapt their behaviour to blend. So my question in this is. If such a bleak and dark future is on the horizon with someone who is NDP how do you learn to cope with that?

 

PLEEEEEAAAAASE TELL ME!

 

Mermaid is FAR FAR FAR more patient and kind and loving than I am. Gosh she shows SOOOOO much more empathy for her WH. He is sooooooooo lucky he isn't my WH.

 

So any hints on "Dealing" would be great! I'm spending more time reading LS and sorting out my downstairs rooms than reading the books I've got on NPD. I used to read b4 I went to sleep. Agatha Christie novels or self help or organic gardening stuff but I haven't opened any of them since D Day. I just get depressed reading the NPD books & sometimes wake up crying like I did today. It's just too much to read them almost any time!

 

I did SO MUCH research from 4-12w post D Day and it just made me more frustrated. IC told WH it's probably a lifetime of IC for him. He pffft when I said 2y counselling after infidelity. This was b4 the diagnoses came to the fore.

 

A close (but infrequent contact) friend of mine (T) I've known since 9yo phoned me the other night as the "friends forum spokesperson". My school friends are very worried about me.

T made me PROMISE on my children's dying oaths that I would get WH to drop me over to her house anytime I couldn't cope 24/7 - anytime. She's left a key out. I said I may as well move in!!!! She said I know. She's lived with a serial cheater for 20y. She DOES know. She thinks my WH actually loves me as much as he can. That's it in a nutshell. "As much as he can". T knows me so well. She said Lion Heart I'm stronger and tougher than you. I don't think you're gonna come out of this "alright".

I had to agree. It's horrible.

 

For years I got used to the lack of intimacy. WH just plainly said "I don't do that". It's SOOOOOooooo lonely having a relationship with a person like WH. A Counsellor said to me that a true NPD can't experience true intimacy. He CAN be nice or CAN be loving but it's ALWAYS to benefit WH. So the sex has been like having a series of ONS with a stranger really. I thought it was different when we first met but it was probably only my projection. WH was also trying REALLY HARD when we 1st met. I'd been in a LTR for 4y with a man who was fast becoming a millionaire. This man wanted me back even though it was always a crumbly relationship (he'd proposed many x but I just didn't trust him - turned out my instincts there were spot on so I dropt and ran). I'd broken up with LTR months b4. He showered me with every gift imaginable but it didn't change the fact I knew he'd been about to cheat. I found an ad he wrote for a woman. Done. My relationship choices have never been about "money". It's about love, compatibility and sex. I'll be honest.

 

Still WHILE there was overt and OBVIOUS competition. WH was on his very best behaviour. It was when I had his twins that it started to go downhill. WH "had me". The NPD "King and his subjects to serve him". I guess he "de-throned" himself on D Day because even his little subjects (the kids) know who he is.

Their behaviour has changed towards him and like your WH merrmeade, he doesn't notice. It's the King thing.

I'm just not gonna let him USE me NOWHERE to the degree he has.

I've taken WH access to the Royal Coffers away because the money was my savings. No access. I'm pi$$ed he greedily took $6500 off me during his A. He said I shouldn't have offered - wtf. If I knew he was having an A I wouldn't have!

I've shown him the NSW Law ruling on that last night.

NO MORE OF MY MONEY. He just doesn't get it at all!!

He runs his own business.

I've done his books for years. NO more of that either. He is SO pi$$ed at me.

Now if he doesn't get his paperwork done by June 30 then my Tax Return won't come for AGES. If we're separated, they'll process mine anyway. So I've told him that's what I'll be doing.

Pi$$ed again. Well GROW UP!!! No more silly bu**ers. Pull you head out and use it to act like an adult. Want respect then EARN RESPECT.

 

I'm a super saver, incredibly resourceful and he's blown so much of my very hard earned $$ and I need to be just a little bit sensible because I'm looking at SPg blah blah. I don't say that's why I've made changes. It's in direct response to how I've felt totally used and abused forever by him. If he's got responsibilities then he has to TAKE responsibility FOR THEM. He's the bottom line for his sh** now. Not me.

Plus I'm taking steps so as NOT TO build any MORE resentment than I already have after his A.

 

So me and the kids are going to a resort for 5d then Ks farm and he's SO pi$$ed. A King with no subjects is not a "King".

He's booked himself in anyway ofcourse but then complains that he can't work while he's away with us! Don't come! Pleeeeaaaze!

 

I want to paint rooms and it's taken all my energy to FIND the friggin paint I bought a year ago in the hoarding mess he's accumulated downstairs. I've got heirlooms down there. I've cleaned out a trailer load of his rubbish. Not stuff. Actual rubbish.

 

Gosh I should get the hoarder show in from the US!

 

I am weary of it. But there's SO much to do and now WH realizes that I'm doing HIS work to prepare, he's not lifting a finger to help. Blerrrh. No matter. I'll start bringing my friends in soon and THEN he'll jump in. They'll throw everything of WHs out because they WANT him out. He ACTUALLY THINKS they'll still like him!! What a cocktail he is! This sounds like a game of tit for tat. It was always TIT b4. He never tatted. It's about putting a bomb under him to actually take responsibility.

I'll just do it all anyway.

 

Thanks for letting me rant.

 

Chiro tomorrow thank goodness.

Xxx

Very tired Lion Heart.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Lion Heart...girl....You are a STRONG ONE! you know what i think?? I think you GOT THIS!

 

You are making decisions left and right....you are thinking about you and the kids and to hell with "king"....and i could not agree more with what you are doing!

 

It is time for you to put "king" in his place!

 

I keep thinking back to our situation. I am a very controlling high strung person. John is easy going and laid back...however....he has VERY strong principles...and if you back him into a corner he will attack. He feels no pain when attacking. I have watched him in action. I cower and weep....not him...he comes at you with everything in his being!

 

So...in the beginning of our reconciliation...i placed myself in his control....and the funny thing is....he felt like i was the one calling the shots....and i felt it was him.

 

What i am trying to say to you beautiful ladies is this....i know it is frightening...I was scared to death that John would kick me out.....but you girls are in the position to call the shots! I do not mean mistreat your way wards in any way....but you certainly need to let them know....your future is no longer in their control.

 

I guess i think if you make them angry and they walk...what do you lose?

 

If they walk...you win

If they stay and do all the things you need....you win

 

Stay strong LH and merrmeade....hold those heads up and take charge. You are the ones who are "king"....those of us who betrayed...deserve nothing. The love...the forgiveness....the life you give to us...is a GIFT.....

 

I love my gift....i rejoice everyday for my gift....I will never again take my gift for granted.

 

Hugs...to the beautiful souls here who have graciously given the gift of a second chance.

 

Hail to the Queens of loveshack...may you forever reign!

[ladydesigner]

WH "had me". The NPD "King and his subjects to serve him". I guess he "de-throned" himself on D Day because even his little subjects (the kids) know who he is.

 

Oh my this made me lol. Like you ladies LH and MM I believe my WH is NPD.

 

 

but you certainly need to let them know....your future is no longer in their control.

 

and this is exactly how I am handling things nowadays

[Seachan]

MM,

 

Sorry for your pain. But do you suppose it's possible that your H - by his very nature - is simply NOT a monogamous fellow? If I recall, he was a player before he met you. You married because you thought you were pregnant. He continued playing from the beginning of your marriage and has never stopped.

 

As much as he may love you, he may just not be cut out to be a faithful H. You keep hoping he will change and turn into something he is not. That disconnect between what you wish for and what is reality causes you pain. Maybe for you to be happy and continue to be M with WH, you need to accept him for who he is and has always been - someone who "needs" sexual variety.

 

In cultures where women look the other way and tolerate men with mistresses, the wives learn to be content that at the end of the day no matter who else he has been with, the H always returns to her. She is his primary and "official" woman.