By works?

[Moose]

This is a continuation of another thread, but to avoid going off topic, I started this one:

Moose, if you really were really half as compassionate/understanding/respectful about other beliefs, you'd afford them the courtesy of knowing a tiny bit about them before speaking with a degree of authority--let alone superiority.

This was from the web site you directed me to:

The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ’s death on the cross—Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2)—but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response

.- IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827

permission to publish this work is hereby granted.

+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

 

Look at the last sentence: —but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on our response That's a big but. And that's what I'm talking about too. You see, it's not that I don't know, or have the courtesy, or the tiniest bit of knowledge to know what I'm talking about..........tell me, what reponses are required according to your faith?

 

According to the same publication, it depends on what, "state of salvation", you're in when you die whether or not you go to heaven or hell.

 

There is no possible way to know each and every sin we've sinned. So how can we ever be in the right, "sate of salvation", 24/7????

 

Even I don't believe in Faith Without Works, but the type of works is where I disagree with the Catholic faith. It's too repetetive, too standard, too bland and frankly, I don't see how it benefits the lost. How do Catholics reach the lost if you never see a Catholic at your front door?

 

The works I'm involved in helps the saved grow in their spiritual walk, and also reaches the lost through our missionary programs.

 

It's well within my rights based on just this information, that I know, and have known for a long time to reject this faith as my personal path to God.

[Pocky]

I have religious question, but it's off topic. Can I ask it anyway, Moosey?

[Moose]

Originally posted by Pocky

I have religious question, but it's off topic. Can I ask it anyway, Moosey?

Just trying to obey the rules Pocky........you makin' fun of me????

[Pocky]

Originally posted by Moose

Just trying to obey the rules Pocky........you makin' fun of me????

 

HAH! No, not making fun. I really have a religious question, which has crossed my mind sporadicly and this post reminded me of it. I'll start a new thread.

[moimeme]

How do Catholics reach the lost if you never see a Catholic at your front door?

 

There are all kinds of outreach programs - shelters, charities. Not to mention schools and hospitals with a lot of Catholic involvement.

[Nicholas]

Moose, it's a personal decision, and I won't demonize yours. I don't think you quite understand mine, but I won't waste anymore energy clarifying it--it's not like you have plans of converting to Catholicism.

 

It has just been my experience that 'salvation by faith alone' people are often extremely obnoxious, because they have empowered themselves with a righteous attitude towards pointing out your faults, and in turn, developed a dissapointing neglect for their own moral development--in short, spiritual laziness.

[Moose]

It has just been my experience that 'salvation by faith alone' people are often extremely obnoxious, because they have empowered themselves with a righteous attitude towards pointing out your faults, and in turn, developed a dissapointing neglect for their own moral development--in short, spiritual laziness.

Oh I agree with you there 110%!!! It's my opinion that the truly saved will automatically yearn for works. I could go into details what Mrs. Moose and I do for our Church, but somehow, people twist even that around to make it look like we're trying to fit in with the masses. Personally, It's not them that I have to answer to.

[BlockHead]

Nicholas

It has just been my experience that 'salvation by faith alone' people are often extremely obnoxious, because they have empowered themselves with a righteous attitude towards pointing out your faults, and in turn, developed a dissapointing neglect for their own moral development--in short, spiritual laziness.

I had a similar experience with a salvation by works person. He was arrogant, manipulative, and deceitful, but he can get away with it because he meets his “salvation by works” quota.

 

 

Luke 23:39-43

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Here is one interpretation.

blind_otter

Intention, which is the basis for action, is most likely what made the two criminals different. Is a man wrong for stealing bread for his hungry family, or medicine for a dying wife? What about the man who steals merely to gain wealth? We know nothing of the context of the men's crimes.

 

These are questions we were posed in classes that we took before we were confirmed in the catholic church. Discussion followed.

I believe the criminal was saved by his faith alone.

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by BlockHead

I had a similar experience with a salvation by works person. He was arrogant, manipulative, and deceitful, but he can get away with it because he meets his “salvation by works” quota.

It's not a quota. I think you know better. If not : http://www.catholic.com

[BlockHead]

Nicholas

I was talking about Jehovah witnesses, and they only believe in salvation by works. They document all of their good deeds in a notebook/s. They are only interested in covering the entrance fees for heaven.

 

 

Here is one argument in support of Salvation by Faith.

Christian: Definition

Mat 7:15-20

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Mat 7 Interpretation: Discern by Fruits, Not Gifts

Yet the image of the tree and the fruit also reminds us that behavior flows from character, and in Christian teaching character comes through being born again rather than merely through self-discipline (see Odeberg 1964:72). Our own best efforts at restructuring unregenerate human nature are doomed to failure (Gal 5:19-21). By contrast, a person transformed by and consistently dependent on the power of God's Spirit will live according to the traits of God's character because of God's empowerment, just as trees bear fruit according to their own kind (Gal 5:18, 22-23).

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Nicholas

I was talking about Jehovah witnesses, and they only believe in salvation by works.

Oops, sorry. Yeah, I don't want to say too much, as I don't know too much about them, but from what I do know, I'm a little disenchanted by their salvation policy as well.

Here is one argument in support of Salvation by Faith.

As much as Luther got heat for it, I don't see it as a big enough controversy to, say, hold a council over. I think Moose is on the right track where he says that the faithful will be compelled to do good works.

 

My belief in salvation by faith and works is really only hypothetical, as a belief in the afterlife isn't part of my faith.

[Chris777]

Originally posted by Nicholas

As much as Luther got heat for it, I don't see it as a big enough controversy to, say, hold a council over.

 

Luther is another one that confuses me but thats a whole other topic, (I just dont understand why so many admire him, when he clearly demonstrated a hate for non converting Jews)

 

My belief in salvation by faith and works is really only hypothetical, as a belief in the afterlife isn't part of my faith.

 

Didn't you say earlier you were Catholic?

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Chris777

Didn't you say earlier you were Catholic?

If I did say it, it's because it's true.

 

I don't disbelieve in an afterlife, I just don't care.

Some people need the cosmic cookie at the end of life, I do not.

[Chris777]

Originally posted by Nicholas

I don't disbelieve in an afterlife, I just don't care.

Some people need the cosmic cookie at the end of life, I do not.

I wasn't just refering to the good side of an afterlife, it also includes the bad ie damnation for those who do not accept salvation?

[Nicholas]

Ok. I'll be more specific.

 

I don't disbelieve in an afterlife, I just don't care.

Some people need the cosmic cookie at the end of life, I do not.

Some people need the threat of flaming sulfur to keep them in line, I do not.

[quankanne]

ooooh ... catholic theology!

 

tell me, what reponses are required according to your faith?

 

According to the same publication, it depends on what, "state of salvation", you're in when you die whether or not you go to heaven or hell.

 

There is no possible way to know each and every sin we've sinned. So how can we ever be in the right, "sate of salvation", 24/7????

 

Even I don't believe in Faith Without Works, but the type of works is where I disagree with the Catholic faith. It's too repetetive, too standard, too bland and frankly, I don't see how it benefits the lost.

 

different subjects here, which I'll touch upon briefly:

 

state of salvation can prolly be better described as "state of grace," and you know whether you are in communion with God or not (living, as a believer, by his law or in a state of broken communication because the sin you've committed, whether a lesser one -- think in terms of lying or monkey-spanking -- or a serious one, such as murder). The terminology changes with the ages, but the meaning is the same.

 

responses according to my faith: simply put, it's like the song goes, "they will know we are Christian by our love." Jesus asks us only to love God and one another, which are the Ten Commandments in a nutshell. What better way to show that love than to reach out to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the poor, etc? Catholics respond the same as other believers, we just have the terminology downpat: we call it social justice and preferential option for the poor. We start up ministries like St. Vincent De Paul (which helps people get back on their feet) and the Gabriel and the Rachel Projects (which deal with pregnancy and abortion-related suffering). We allow God back into the classroom through the Catholic schools we open.

 

How do Catholics reach the lost if you never see a Catholic at your front door?

 

alas, our Protestant brothers and sisters have a headstart on the door-to-door missionary work, but Catholics took Christianity out beyond Rome more than a thousand years ago. Franciscan and Jesuit missionary priests and brothers, and (in more recent centuries, women religious) brought religion to the indigenous peoples of the Americas, as well as to other areas of the globe. We've kind of toned down our approach by jettisoning methods of browbeating (like the Inquisition and the Crusades) and simply try to be more active in showing our faith, because what better way than to model your belief? Telling someone about your faith is great; acting your belief is greater.

 

interestingly enough, the RCIA programs of churches bear witness to those people looking for a fuller understanding of Christianity – people see Catholics in action in their communities (or even on a global level, like the Mother Teresas and John Pauls of the world) and are curious about what we have to offer, and why someone would be compelled to do things like help women who've suffered the after-effects of abortion. They see the history of the church, the longevity behind our beliefs and the unwavering stance we take on issues, and I think that provides an answer to an undefined yearning they've got to be closer to God. What "seals the deal" for many of them is the belief of Christ present here and now in the Eucharist – Jesus, in the form of bread and wine, becomes very, very real to them ...

[Chris777]

Originally posted by Nicholas

Ok. I'll be more specific.

 

I don't disbelieve in an afterlife, I just don't care.

Some people need the cosmic cookie at the end of life, I do not.

Some people need the threat of flaming sulfur to keep them in line, I do not.

 

I personally agree, with your position right is right perion. Yet to not be concerned for others in those respects Good or Bad comes off as a bit Lacking.

 

I don't do anything for "crowns" or "praise" or "well done" I do them because I believe God, and they benefit Him, his kingdom, and his children.

 

But I don't sit and deny the truth of his word, or say it doesn't matter, as it does, hell, and damnation, are just as real as Heaven, and Salvation.

 

To diminish them is to diminish the truth.

 

There was a time I wanted to die, the pain was so bad, it quite litterally reminded me of the bibles verses of hell, where i was personally "weeping, and gnashing" my teeth.

I knew however the cause of the pain, and endured it until it passed, but it left me with a new understanding for drug addicts, as well, as a taste of hell. something I don't reccomend anyone having to endure ever.

[suegail]

There are those who give up pretty much all that ties them to the world and devote themselves to the service of others in the name of Christianity. I've felt that it probably is the giving up of a worldly life that is a very good thing in the eyes of God. The world as it stands is a distraction; in most ways it's a magnet which pulls us away from God. Don't get me wrong. Few of us will ever give up all we have and refuse many of the comforts we have come to know, but I do feel that by 'works' by giving back in whatever way we can, whenever we can, it does strenghten our relationship with God, it gets us one step closer when we don't 'hang on' for all we're worth to everything, provided what we are seeking is communion with God.

 

I wouldn't care to live as an Amish, probably because I wasn't raised that way, but they do something I think is wonderful and that is to not allow the world to influence or change them. They keep God first in their hearts.

 

God understands what will give us strength and what will only make it harder for us, and I do think that it is the letting go of some of the things that connect us to the world that gives us greater spiritual union with Christ.

[Nicholas]

Originally posted by Chris777

But I don't sit and deny the truth of his word, or say it doesn't matter, as it does, hell, and damnation, are just as real as Heaven, and Salvation.

 

To diminish them is to diminish the truth.

 

That's a load of crap. I'm not diminishing any truth, I'm just not holding it personally relevant.

 

You are free to believe in heaven and hell, regardless of the neccessary question-begging. Personally, I think they're constructions to motivate people who need that motivation.

 

I didn't say it didn't matter. I said it didn't manner to me.

[Moose]

Personally, I think they're constructions to motivate people who need that motivation.

I respect your ideas. I do have a question though on a personal level. If Heaven and Hell is "our", motivation as you believe, (personally, it's not mine, but), what would be your motivation?

[BlockHead]

Nicholas

Personally, I think they're constructions to motivate people who need that motivation.

What is your motivation?

 

 

Why call yourself Christian when you don’t seem to find any benefit from it?

[Nicholas]

I think there are plenty of benefits that you don't have to wait until you're already dead and useless to enjoy. I like the scholarship. I like the community.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Nicholas

I think there are plenty of benefits that you don't have to wait until you're already dead and useless to enjoy. I like the scholarship. I like the community.

And we don't? Can I rephrase? What is your motivation that makes you unique, or better yet, makes you prefer your particular faith?

[Nicholas]

I answered your question.

[Moose]

Originally posted by Nicholas

I answered your question.

I think not. You didn't specify what's so unique about your motivation compared to say the Baptist sect. My motivation isn't heaven or hell, (which you claim some need).....I certainly know without a doubt where I'm going. So going to hell isn't a concern for me at all. And we equally take a liking to the scholarship and community, it doesn't provide me with an idea of what drives you to remain in your particular faith, especially based on what you've said. It's hard for any of us to see why you even bother.