Old Testament vs. New Testament

[Moose]

From a documentary I recently viewed, Mary is said to have been born sinless, hence the reason she was capable of giving birth to Jesus.

There is no possible way that Mary could have been born sinless. I don't know what documentary you read.....but that's impossible. Mary was favoured by God because of her background and how she lived her life......but sinless......no human has ever been sinless, only Christ Himself.

[Pocky]

Originally posted by Moose

There is no possible way that Mary could have been born sinless. I don't know what documentary you read.....but that's impossible. Mary was favoured by God because of her background and how she lived her life......but sinless......no human has ever been sinless, only Christ Himself.

 

Weren't Adam and Eve sinless?

[quankanne]

if he could purify Mary, why not purify all and not force his people to live in sin? Aren't we sinful because he wants us to be sinful? He gave the choice to Adam and Eve - he gave a choice and punished for that choice. Why give a choice at all? If he wants us to adhere to a specific way of life why not give us that only way of life? He gave Mary no choice

 

okay, the Mary question is based on Catholic catechism, as I have learned it:

 

Mary (known as the Immaculate Conception because of her sinless nature) DID have a choice when told by the angel Gabriel that she was chosen by God to bear His Son. And she said yes, based on her love of God -- even though she still had the privilege to turn down the offer.

 

her answer was given of free will, just like we have free will to sin if we so choose. Why give the choice? because out of his love for us he has given humans the opportunity make those choices itself. Sort of think of it in terms of love: you want someone to love you not because of what you feel for them, but because they have found something so compelling about you to love. Same with God: he wants that choice to be ours, to be freely made, not mandated just because he loves you.

[Naive]

Originally posted by Moose

the prophesies pertaining to our day and age contained in the New Testament have been, and continue to come true, down to the letter. Besides, I worship God Himself. Jesus is God.

 

 

Which prophesies have come true?

[Pocky]

Originally posted by quankanne

Mary (known as the Immaculate Conception because of her sinless nature) DID have a choice when told by the angel Gabriel that she was chosen by God to bear His Son. And she said yes, based on her love of God -- even though she still had the privilege to turn down the offer.

 

Okay - I see where you make the point of the choice being given. Equating this to the choice that Adam and Eve had. And also in comparison, Adam and Eve were born without sin and then became sinful. Likewise, Mary was born without sin and had the choice to become sinful.

 

Therefore, you have three people that were without sin - why are all born with sin then? Why aren't we given the choice from the beginning? Why aren't we accountable for deciding if we are going to be sinful or not, like Adam and Eve and Mary?

 

Why give the choice? because out of his love for us he has given humans the opportunity make those choices itself.

 

How have we been given the choice? We're born sinful - we had no choice. All we can do is try and backtrack and fix what Adam and Eve messed up.

[Moose]

Originally posted by ~Naive~

Which prophesies have come true?

The most significant, and easiest to recgonize is when God promised that Israel will one day become a nation. That happened in the 1940's. The frequencies of earthquakes, storms, famines, are all increasing, (most people credit this to ecology), man's wisdom, and ability to travel great distances in a short amount of time......all of these have come true. I know that I'll get bombarded from people on this about where I get my information, I've read it from many different sources.......too many to and too little time to look them all up.

[quankanne]

There is no possible way that Mary could have been born sinless ... no human has ever been sinless, only Christ Himself

 

yet is Christ is both human and divine, and he receives that divinity from God because he is of God, wouldn't it go to say that if Mary had been born with sin, he would have inherited that sinfulness from his human mother? She would have had to have been sinless from her inception to be vessel that would carry the Son of God.

 

in the Old Testament (Exodus, chapter 25), we read about the Ark of the Covenent, a sanctuary in which God will dwell. And He gives very explicit instruction about how this abode is to be constructed. If He resided in a physical contraption built of the finest of materials, how could he, as the Christ, have resided in a human body that was sinful? His mother would have to have met very high specifications to be the Ark of the New Covenent (Jesus) ~ she would have to be sinless in nature to bear God's Son.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by Moose

The most significant, and easiest to recgonize is when God promised that Israel will one day become a nation. That happened in the 1940's.

Yes, but AFTER more than 6,000,000 jews were masacred. Israel was set up to aid in the historical persecution of Jews by others (mostly Christians)

 

The frequencies of earthquakes, storms, famines, are all increasing, (most people credit this to ecology)

There has been no change in the frequency or severity of these "acts of God" over recorded history. I don't know where u are getting your info on this item.

 

 

man's wisdom, and ability to travel great distances in a short amount of time......all of these have come true.

Mans wisdom and ability to travel great distances in shorter and shorter periods of time have both been constantly increasing over time as our knowledge base and technology get better. The invention of the ship and horse drawn carriage were just as impt and revolutionary as the invention of the airplane and Saturn V rocket when put into historical context.

[quankanne]

Therefore, you have three people that were without sin - why are all born with sin then? Why aren't we given the choice from the beginning? Why aren't we accountable for deciding if we are going to be sinful or not, like Adam and Eve and Mary? … How have we been given the choice? We're born sinful - we had no choice. All we can do is try and backtrack and fix what Adam and Eve messed up.

 

even though we are tainted by original sin, we're born with the desire to reconcile with God, and we act, using our free will, on that desire. Or not. As you say, we try to fix that stain of sin we inherited from that original pair who acted on THEIR free will to sin, something they spiritually bestowed on their descendents.

 

'why aren't we given the choice from the beginning,' you ask. honestly Pocky, that's way above my little peabrain, something I think only God has the answer for!

[quankanne]

upon further musings about original sin: maybe it's not really about being tainted with it, but that we are given that opportunity to reconcile with God on a continuing basis and we have the free will to do so if we choose.

[Moose]

Originally posted by quankanne

There is no possible way that Mary could have been born sinless ... no human has ever been sinless, only Christ Himself

 

yet is Christ is both human and divine, and he receives that divinity from God because he is of God, wouldn't it go to say that if Mary had been born with sin, he would have inherited that sinfulness from his human mother? She would have had to have been sinless from her inception to be vessel that would carry the Son of God.

 

in the Old Testament (Exodus, chapter 25), we read about the Ark of the Covenent, a sanctuary in which God will dwell. And He gives very explicit instruction about how this abode is to be constructed. If He resided in a physical contraption built of the finest of materials, how could he, as the Christ, have resided in a human body that was sinful? His mother would have to have met very high specifications to be the Ark of the New Covenent (Jesus) ~ she would have to be sinless in nature to bear God's Son.

According to the accepted Roman Catholic explanation, Mary, at the supposed stage of her conception when the soul was actually infused into the body waiting for it, received the special grace of God whereby she was delivered from all stain of original sin. The point which Protestants need especially to note is that, according to Roman Catholic ideas, this gracious act of God was performed on the basis of the foreseen merits of Christ's sacrifice. - Taken from this website:

 

Right here

 

As far as your comments Alpha, I've already told you, I have many sources, too many to mention in so little time. Just like I predicted, you would come in here an challenge this.

[quankanne]

"she was delivered from all stain of original sin."

 

i.e., sinless, and therefore the proper vessel to bear the Christ ...

[BlockHead]

Pocky

While I understand the differences between the religions it doesn't explain why it seems like Christians don't even recognize the Old Testament. I understand that the New Testament, within a religious aspect, is the main focus of their religion, but that shouldn't completely negate the Old Testament should it? I find this inconsistent.

I believe Paul is responsible for that.

It is all part of his argument for Justification by Faith rather than by works, and his arguments against circumcision. You should be able to find the information in his letters to the Corinthians, the Galatians and the Romans.

 

Maybe Paul’s letters are covered in a different course.

Pocky

Funny thing though is that the OT is nothing but rules and what happens when you follow or don't follow those rules.

I think Paul called it a “stumbling block” for the Jews.

Pocky

How do you know that Jesus was sent from God? How do you know he wasn't just another prophet and not the son of God? How do you know that God wanted the old ways to change? How do you know that he wanted everything that he had done to be pushed to the side and this new book to be created?

How do you know you aren’t in the MATRIX?

 

 

 

New Testament - God is forgiving

Old Testament - God is wrathful

[Moose]

Originally posted by quankanne

"she was delivered from all stain of original sin."

 

i.e., sinless, and therefore the proper vessel to bear the Christ ...

Right, but she wasn't, "born", without sin.

[westernxer]

Has anyone ever read the Bible from cover to cover? If you do, let me warn you... it's pretty boring, especially if you read the King James Version with its Elizabethan English. The last four books of Moses are a drag... Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Judges is very entertaining as are the the books of Samuel with their stories of Kind David and Solomon. Isaiah and Jeremiah are better read after dropping acid, while Psalms and Proverbs remain the most charming for their prosaic appeal.

 

I used to be a Bible junkie. Don't get me started...

[Pocky]

Originally posted by Moose

According to the accepted Roman Catholic explanation, Mary, at the supposed stage of her conception when the soul was actually infused into the body waiting for it, received the special grace of God whereby she was delivered from all stain of original sin.

 

So Mary was free of original sin simply because God wanted it that way. And in turn we are all sinful because God wants it that way. It is not by choice that we are sinful, we're sinful because he wants us to remain sinful, hence being sinful from birth.

 

I find it interesting that in Christianity, you spend your whole life striving to erase corruption, when the very essence of you, according to the Bible, is corrupted. If it's so much of who we are, why are we trying to remove it? Why are we told that we have to make amends for the corruption that was given to us without our consent from the time we were born?

 

If corruption is to our soul as the color of our hair is to our body, the very concept of trying to rid ourselves from it seems pointless. Doesn't it? While I can dye my hair, I can never truly change the color of it. While I can try and live my life a certain way, I can never truly change that I'm sinful. I will automatically fail because there is no other way, but failure.

[Moose]

I find it interesting that in Christianity, you spend your whole life striving to erase corruption, when the very essence of you, according to the Bible, is corrupted.

No, please don't misunderstand, we aren't trying to erase corruption. That's impossible. We have, though, accepted the fact that we are corrupt, and will remain corrupt. There's no way around it. That's why God sent us His Son.

If it's so much of who we are, why are we trying to remove it?

My Faith realizes that sin will never be completly removed from us. That's why God sent Jesus.

Why are we told that we have to make amends for the corruption that was given to us without our consent from the time we were born?

I've never been told I had to make amends. I have been told that I must confess my sins and ask for Christ to come into my heart, and to believe He took those sins to the cross for me.

If corruption is to our soul as the color of our hair is to our body, the very concept of trying to rid ourselves from it seems pointless. Doesn't it?

Pointless, and impossible. That's why I'm thankful that my God sent a Saviour to bare my sins.

I will automatically fail because there is no other way, but failure.

Not really. There's a free gift of grace that yours for the taking.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Pocky

Funny thing though is that the OT is nothing but rules and what happens when you follow or don't follow those rules.

 

It started out that way, but it became a history book - teaching about how the faithful lived and worshipped before Christ. It's become, at least in my limited teachings on the OT, a reference or resource and a document of God's miracles before He sent Jesus to change the world. Laws that governed overall morality (like the 10 Commandments) were carried forward, but ritual that had to do with the more specific oppressions and worship of the past were no longer valid because Jesus came with new teachings from God, and Jesus himself took on many of the things that humans had dealt with in the past. It was God's way of cleansing His followers and freeing them.

 

That is basically how it was taught to me. I think the analogy that I remember is about standard and automatic transmissions in cars. It's good to know how they work, and the engineers had to have a base to go from, but once the automatic transmission became widespread, very few people went back to using a clutch--they could if they wanted to, and they still had to understand forward and reverse and low gear, but they can drive without needing a manual transmission.

[Chris777]

Where is it ever said that Mary was sinless? (other than catholic, and possibly orthodox doctrines?)

 

"yet is Christ is both human and divine, and he receives that divinity from God because he is of God, wouldn't it go to say that if Mary had been born with sin, he would have inherited that sinfulness from his human mother? She would have had to have been sinless from her inception to be vessel that would carry the Son of God."

 

Hence he was both man, and God, in that he was born as a man. In situations where the bible is silent why is it people decide to go in and presuppose their own take on things? Its bad enough that we get complaints like below about the bible being boring, but to go and add something to it is like making a snowball out of it, not to mention blasphemous, (by adding to or taking away from what is written)

 

"Has anyone ever read the Bible from cover to cover? If you do, let me warn you... it's pretty boring, especially if you read the King James Version with its Elizabethan English. The last four books of Moses are a drag... Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Judges is very entertaining as are the the books of Samuel with their stories of Kind David and Solomon. Isaiah and Jeremiah are better read after dropping acid, while Psalms and Proverbs remain the most charming for their prosaic appeal.

 

I used to be a Bible junkie. Don't get me started..."

 

the books of chronicles can be boring, but not so bad if you start looking up the definitions of all the names, dont get me started lol

 

the thing about king james, is unless you want to learn hebrew and greek, if you can read a king james you can go and read any other translation available, (however corrupt and liberal they might be)

 

"How have we been given the choice? We're born sinful - we had no choice. All we can do is try and backtrack and fix what Adam and Eve messed up."

I used to think that myself, but I ask you this do you really think you would have made a different choice than they did, if you had been in the same situation?

 

 

"I find it interesting that that judgment day is always just around the corner, but hasn't just around the corner been since the NT was written?"

how old are you? out of curiocity

I Don't know if you are old enough yet to notice, but the older you get the quicker time seems to pass, and the shorter life seems to be. I hate being hypothetical with biblical topics, but just suppose that paul stated that Christ would return on july 4 2006. now knowing how lazy people tend to be , do you not think that most people back then would say oh weve got 2000 years then a thousand yers ago it would have been oh weve got 1000 years then last year oh weve got another year to try and spread the gospel.

 

It is urgent It will come before anyone is ready, and people will give excuses, why they weren't doing what they should have been, just like they always do. In Gods time a day is as a thousand years, so basically it's been 2 days since he came. The point is our lifespans are so blunted by sin that we barely have time enough to work out our own salvation, much less sharing it with as many people as possible. Kind of like where paul said it would be better to be celibate, because you would be concerned more with the things of god rather than occupying yourselves with the daily doldrums of living.

 

"and what about the 2nd coming of Christ. I mean....most people who think they are Christ are thrown into the looney bin and put on psychotropic medications.

 

how will we know when He comes to earth? and if he did show up don't u think the CIA or some other govt agency would assasinate him cause he would be a detriment to nat'l security?"

 

He will appear from the sky, when he comes, not from the earth,

 

 

"But if God created us, the darkness is his creation, isn't it? If he made all things, he also made the darkness and therefore perpetuated his own creation."

 

God seperated the day from the night, the light from the darkness, which is why hell is also called outer darkness away from the light of god.

 

He knew we would sin, he knew we would fall, he knows who will be saved and who won't. he knows what we will do even though we don't.

 

"So Mary was free of original sin simply because God wanted it that way. And in turn we are all sinful because God wants it that way. It is not by choice that we are sinful, we're sinful because he wants us to remain sinful, hence being sinful from birth."

 

Just like most people choose to dismiss christianity, the key word is choose, yet they question why God does not Make the choice for them? Do you want free will or not?

 

I find it interesting that in Christianity, you spend your whole life striving to erase corruption, when the very essence of you, according to the Bible, is corrupted. If it's so much of who we are, why are we trying to remove it? Why are we told that we have to make amends for the corruption that was given to us without our consent from the time we were born?

 

like I stated earlier do you really think if you had been created sinless like adam and eve that you would have made a different choice than they did?

What you should also find interesting is that Christianity is the only religion that tells us we are sinful and corrupted, Criticism, that most people don't like to hear, and hence most people either outright reject it, based on being called evil, or they try to change what the text actually says to justify their sin IE Homosexuality.

(before my conversion I myself justified Adultry with a woman I later married , and then divorced.

But in reality God was right and I was wrong)

 

It's funny how people tend to pick and choose what they like and dislike about something , and end up conforming it to themselves rather than even attempt to conform themselves to it.

 

"If corruption is to our soul as the color of our hair is to our body, the very concept of trying to rid ourselves from it seems pointless. Doesn't it? While I can dye my hair, I can never truly change the color of it. While I can try and live my life a certain way, I can never truly change that I'm sinful. I will automatically fail because there is no other way, but failure."

 

Why do you think god sent YOU a savior?

 

I'll elaborate more on it later I have to go

[BlockHead]

Pocky

If corruption is to our soul as the color of our hair is to our body, the very concept of trying to rid ourselves from it seems pointless. Doesn't it? While I can dye my hair, I can never truly change the color of it. While I can try and live my life a certain way, I can never truly change that I'm sinful. I will automatically fail because there is no other way, but failure.

Sounds like the typical Salvation by Faith vs. Salvation by works argument. In other words, Character vs. discipline. Do you ingrain goodness and faithfulness into your character or do you just use the discipline that comes with rules?

 

I believe the general argument is that discipline will always fail because it is nonregenerative. I think this is why Paul called it a “stumbling block”.

I don’t remember the argument on why having it ingrained into your character is regenerative.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by BlockHead

Do you ingrain goodness and faithfulness into your character or do you just use the discipline that comes with rules?

 

I believe the general argument is that discipline will always fail because it is nonregenerative.

 

BLOCKHEAD, you are an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Why do u always sound like a computer spewing out facts and data??

[Pocky]

I Don't know if you are old enough yet to notice, but the older you get the quicker time seems to pass, and the shorter life seems to be. I hate being hypothetical with biblical topics, but just suppose that paul stated that Christ would return on july 4 2006. now knowing how lazy people tend to be , do you not think that most people back then would say oh weve got 2000 years then a thousand yers ago it would have been oh weve got 1000 years then last year oh weve got another year to try and spread the gospel.

 

I'm old enough. However, the idea that the apocalypse is right around the corner is a constant theme in Christianity. It seems like every generation is deemed the worst and most sinful and the generation that will experience judgment, then another generation passes and they are now the worst and the most sinful and they are going to experience judgment. However, our generations just keeping on trucking and there's been nothing to support the "the sky is falling" theme within Christianity.

 

God seperated the day from the night, the light from the darkness, which is why hell is also called outer darkness away from the light of god.

 

But he didn't separate the darkness from people.

 

He knew we would sin, he knew we would fall, he knows who will be saved and who won't. he knows what we will do even though we don't.

 

So in reality we were created with the expectation to fail. God created us with sin. It was not in the garden that we acquired sin, it was from conception because God had already known, already decided and already planned the path of sin. He made our sin a pre-existing fault.

 

 

Just like most people choose to dismiss christianity, the key word is choose, yet they question why God does not Make the choice for them? Do you want free will or not?

 

Didn't God make the choice? I was not given the choice when I was created to be sinful or sinless. It was already determined for me. I didn't determine it for myself. I had no free will that gave me the choice.

 

like I stated earlier do you really think if you had been created sinless like adam and eve that you would have made a different choice than they did?

 

Well, if God already knew that man would sin and would therefore perpetuate sin then I would have no free will to decide and yes I would do the same thing as Adam and Eve. Isn't that the point? There really was no choice - the decision was made before they even did anything. The knowledge that the would was already there. The entire setting was established so they would fail. And they did, just as God knew they would.

 

Why do you think god sent YOU a savior?

 

To give me some compensation for forcing me to be born with sin.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by alphamale

and what about the 2nd coming of Christ. I mean....most people who think they are Christ are thrown into the looney bin and put on psychotropic medications.

 

how will we know when He comes to earth? and if he did show up don't u think the CIA or some other govt agency would assasinate him cause he would be a detriment to nat'l security?

.

 

 

LOL! Will the Real Jesus please stand up?

 

If there is a God - and He is as the Christians portray Him, then "when He sends His Son to us again, we will know it. No man, nor agency of man, will be able to deny Him." That is what I've always been told when I asked that question. Maybe it will be different than before -- when JC arrived on earth before he gathered a lot of followers---but not all. He was tortured and killed as a false prophet. I think that many will not recognize Him as the son of God -- they (we) didn't before.

 

I also think that He will be able to reach many more people---Maybe He'll come through our satellites and cable lines. Perhaps a miracle that will show everyone that He is Jesus will be something that we cannot technically explain and is so immediate and widespread that there will be no denying. Maybe it will be something strong enough that an old Agnostic like me will believe.

[BlockHead]

Pocky

However, our generations just keeping on trucking and there's been nothing to support the "the sky is falling" theme within Christianity.

The end of the world is a certainty.

The sun will eventually swell up and swallow the earth.

Pocky

So in reality we were created with the expectation to fail. God created us with sin. It was not in the garden that we acquired sin, it was from conception because God had already known, already decided and already planned the path of sin. He made our sin a pre-existing fault.

We were created in God’s image.

The last time I checked, God wasn’t under anybody’s control.

Pocky

Didn't God make the choice? I was not given the choice when I was created to be sinful or sinless. It was already determined for me. I didn't determine it for myself. I had no free will that gave me the choice.

Ahhhh Predestiny. There are lots of philosophical debates on it. Just pick one.

Pocky

To give me some compensation for forcing me to be born with sin.

Some people consider it a blessing to be alive.

 

 

 

Pocky

How does all of this relate to your original topic?

[quankanne]

Maybe He'll come through our satellites and cable lines. Perhaps a miracle that will show everyone that He is Jesus will be something that we cannot technically explain and is so immediate and widespread that there will be no denying. Maybe it will be something strong enough that an old Agnostic like me will believe

 

Jesus a televangelist? With bad hair ...

 

laughter aside, loud and flashy would go against the Christ we've seen described in Scripture ~ I seem to recall that he went about doing his Father's work quietly, without trying to draw attention to himself. Those who recognized him did so because their hearts were in communion with God, and it'll be much the same thing when he returns. The miracle will be the conversion of heart among those who denied him all along, much like Paul, who at first persecuted Christ with a passion.

 

honestly? I wouldn't trust someone who called himself a savior and "proved" it by doing party-trick miracles.