Old Testament vs. New Testament

[Moose]

Actually, I believe it's written that He'll come at the sound of a trump from heaven. There will be no doubt He's the Christ when He comes.....you can believe that. There will be those who will claim to be Him, and will even have the ability to perform miracles and signs of wonder.....so much so that some of the very elect will be deceived.

[quankanne]

However, the idea that the apocalypse is right around the corner is a constant theme in Christianity

 

because NOW is the time to turn away from sin, NOW is the time to forge that relationship with Christ. Not because God is trying to badger us, but because our immortal souls are at stake.

 

I've got a bumpersticker on my bulletin board at work that says, "Jesus is coming, look busy." Yes, it sounds faceticious when you first read it, but there is a moral to the message: we get so caught up in doing whatever it is that we do, we forget to look at the big picture. But, we don't want to be caught NOT paying attention to that big picture so we try to make it seem like we are.

 

time is of the essence, and our earthly life is just a blip compared to what happens after death; that's why many Christians are focused on end-times.

[HokeyReligions]

LOL Quank I can see the informercial now "Jesus Toupee, only $19.95 and if you order right now, we'll throw in these beautiful hand-woven sandals"

 

Originally posted by Moose

Actually, I believe it's written that He'll come at the sound of a [color=red]trump [/color]from heaven. There will be no doubt He's the Christ when He comes.....you can believe that. There will be those who will claim to be Him, and will even have the ability to perform miracles and signs of wonder.....so much so that some of the very elect will be deceived.

 

Moose, would that be Donald or Ivana?

 

That is kind of what I meant before about what I was told of His return. He would be harolded with trumpets or something like that. Not flashy, but commanding of attention instead of quietly as before. Somehow I have the impression that Jesus is supposed to return as an adult and not be born and grow up again and gather His followers quietly. I don't know where that is in the Bible, or if it's in the Bible or just something I remember reading in one of the many books about Christianity and the Bible that I read in Sunday School.

[Moose]

Moose, would that be Donald or Ivana?

Hmmmmm, not sure.......the one who dies first maybe????

[alphamale]

Originally posted by quankanne

I've got a bumpersticker on my bulletin board at work that says, "Jesus is coming, look busy."

 

Should not that say instead "Jesus is coming, so be and do the best you can"?. Sound more positive to me than "look busy". As if you're going to hell if your hands are idle.

 

But then again....idle hands are Lucifer's workshop.

[Pocky]

Sounds like the "look like a Christian" approach

[quankanne]

I took it as a riff on "quick! the boss/the teacher/your mom is coming! look like you're doing something productive!"

 

Jesus hair

 

shouldn't we call it "holy hair"? that's what we called the toupee that one of the elderly priests wore, lol. This was the guy who had one of the Irish seminarians (a rollicking guy who is now a priest) staying with him one summer, and Mike would steal the hairpiece and hide it in really strange places like the freezer and in boxes of cereal ... really pissed off poor Father!

[Pocky]

I took it as a riff on "quick! the boss/the teacher/your mom is coming! look like you're doing something productive!"

 

CYA, baby.

 

Jesus hair

 

Is that hippy hair? What is Jesus hair?

[Auz]

"If Jesus comes now he'll probably be denounced as a wierdo and killed by some secret service.." - Kinda sounds like the scenario when he first came along doesnt it?

 

"Judgement Day is around the corner" - Creation argues that the world was made over eons - while we are taught it was made in 7 days. I argue that those 7 days are a simplified explanation - try explaining eons to some farmer 2000+ years ago...So, in the same way "around the corner" doesnt necessarily mean next week or next year...

[Chris777]

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

 

Acts 1:6-11

6When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

 

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

 

10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

 

11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

 

 

Hosea 4:6

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge

 

I guess it it time to kick the dust from my feet on this topic, as it is now obvious it was started out of Pockys boredome.

and instead of thinking about what is said It will just be spat back out as an insult, in this game

[BlockHead]

Chris777

I guess it it time to kick the dust from my feet on this topic, as it is now obvious it was started out of Pockys boredome.

and instead of thinking about what is said It will just be spat back out as an insult, in this game

I know what you mean.

[moimeme]

the "new" testament is the Bible and what Christians believe in and the basis of Christianity

 

Nope. The Bible consists of both Old and New Testaments.

 

If, with God's intervention we are capable of being born sinless, then why aren't we born sinless? If sin is corruption and corruption is bad then why must we be born with sin?

 

Adam and Eve blew it for us.

 

But if God created us, the darkness is his creation, isn't it? If he made all things, he also made the darkness and therefore perpetuated his own creation.

 

He created entities with free will. He knew what they'd do but let them do it anyway. It's like your kid. You know he'll eat the chocolate cookie even when you tell him not to, but you know he has the choice to eat it or not. Your 'knowing' is based upon how people behave, not on your having designed your kid so he'll be guaranteed to do the bad thing.

 

Therefore, you have three people that were without sin - why are all born with sin then? Why aren't we given the choice from the beginning? Why aren't we accountable for deciding if we are going to be sinful or not, like Adam and Eve and Mary?

 

Being sinful doesn't mean being condemned to hell. You have the chance to repent - and the choice. In fact, you could look at it the other way - God lets you be who you'll be. If you want to stay sinful, fine. He'll not take it from you - it's up to you.

Has anyone ever read the Bible from cover to cover?

 

I didn't read it but I did skim every page. And I found some very interesting things; among them that the reason God destroyed towns, villages, and people was either that they worshipped false idols or that they were unkind to others - and that includes Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

If you do, let me warn you... it's pretty boring, especially if you read the King James Version with its Elizabethan English.

 

Go with the Jerusalem Bible if you can find one. It has lots of great references.

 

I'm old enough. However, the idea that the apocalypse is right around the corner is a constant theme in Christianity.

 

Some sects of Christianity, like the one Moose follows, have become hyperfocused on Revelation, even though Bible scholars have explained that Revelations is typical of the apocalyptic tales told at the time. They were never meant to be taken literally but rather to be used as cautionary tales and allegories. Nevertheless, there are whole chunks of 'Christians' arguing whether the Tribulation will happen before or after the Rapture (or some such thing).

 

So in reality we were created with the expectation to fail. God created us with sin. It was not in the garden that we acquired sin, it was from conception because God had already known, already decided and already planned the path of sin.

 

Nope it was the Garden.

 

LOL Quank I can see the informercial now "Jesus Toupee, only $19.95 and if you order right now, we'll throw in these beautiful hand-woven sandals"

 

Moose, would that be Donald or Ivana?

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Hoke, for an Agnostic, you certainly have learned your stuff

 

Pocky, remember the Bible is allegory. Try to explain quantum mechanics to a three-year old. You have to boil it down to their understanding and tell stories of apples and marbles.

 

The sin of Adam and Eve was that they indulged in curiosity (not sex LOL) and wanted the wisdom of God. So they tried out this 'fruit' which made them understand the difference between good and evil. IMHO, this means that people were given the capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. A cat kills a bird because the bird moves. The cat doesn't understand that the bird's babies might starve or that it might have a mate who will pine. We, on the other hand, understand the consequences of our actions and therefore we are capable of sinning by choosing actions which can cause pain to others. The cat can't sin - only we can.

 

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

 

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3

 

So our 'sin' is our capacity to understand what we're doing. As for Mary, well maybe she was guileless. There are folks like that, and I'm sure there were a lot more of them then.

[Pocky]

Originally posted by moimeme

Being sinful doesn't mean being condemned to hell. You have the chance to repent - and the choice. In fact, you could look at it the other way - God lets you be who you'll be. If you want to stay sinful, fine. He'll not take it from you - it's up to you.

 

 

Regardless of whether or not we repent we are always sinful aren't we? We never remove sin from our composition, but are only given the opportunity to repent for it and follow the rules that have been given to us through Jesus. Isn't that right or am I looking at it incorrectly?

 

And, as another line of thought, I understand that the original sin is seen as the garden scene with Adam and Eve, but in response to the comment that was previously made, if God is all knowing and created everything he also created sin. If sin was created it was created with a purpose and would have been implemented regardless of what Adam and Eve did in the garden. It just seems that our nature is sinful - even if you were to take the garden scene away - we are naturally sinful and we had no choice in the matter.

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by Chris777

 

and instead of thinking about what is said It will just be spat back out as an insult, in this game

Not by all!

 

I read past the insults and I don't mean to insult anyone with levity. I'm honestly interested in the views and opinions of others and comparing them to how I was taught as a child and young adult.

 

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I think this is what I was remembering --because that is the picture I have in my mind of how Jesus would return to earth. I do seem to remember reading this passage and discussing it in a school setting as a child.

[Moose]

Regardless of whether or not we repent we are always sinful aren't we? We never remove sin from our composition, but are only given the opportunity to repent for it and follow the rules that have been given to us through Jesus. Isn't that right or am I looking at it incorrectly?

Somewhat. But I think it's important for you to know that even though it's impossible for us to completley remove sin from our lives that Jesus' blood still covers us, in my Faith. So basically, I believe you're safe no matter what, "state of salvation", you find yourself in when you pass on.

[moimeme]

Regardless of whether or not we repent we are always sinful aren't we? We never remove sin from our composition, but are only given the opportunity to repent for it and follow the rules that have been given to us through Jesus.

 

So? I'm not sure what the concern is about being sinful. Yes, we are. And if we regret our sins, we're forgiven. So where's the problem?

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by Pocky

I'm old enough. However, the idea that the apocalypse is right around the corner is a constant theme in Christianity. It seems like every generation is deemed the worst and most sinful and the generation that will experience judgment, then another generation passes and they are now the worst and the most sinful and they are going to experience judgment. However, our generations just keeping on trucking and there's been nothing to support the "the sky is falling" theme within Christianity.

 

I read a book recently about early Christians (those who were practicing right after the death of Christ) - they honestly expected Christ to rise again pretty quickly and when he didn't, during their lifetimes, the later books of the bible, written by the apostles after Christ's death, were kind of backtracking to explain that he hadn't come yet, but boy howdy he was coming soon!

 

I think it's important to remember the historical context in which the bible's books were written, over the course of many long years for the followers of Christ. You can see similar changes in rhetoric and philosophy in the religious texts about the buddha. They change as time passes.

 

In any event, the Roman empire was at an age of decedence and decline during the inception of the Christian religion (when it moved from being a bizarre sect to more of an "established" religion). Similar to the kind of age we live in now. Luxury items were more widely available due to the long arm of the roman empire, and the established political hierarchy was corrupt, just like it is everywhere today. The roman empire was collapsing. Christians were sewn into the bloody skins of lambs and put into areans with wild animals that were novel and unique to the area (like lions and tigers) and people watched them being eaten for sport (like we like reality TV ).

 

I think that's where "the sky is falling" tone came from.

 

People like to interpret this kinda stuff in whatever way suits them. Sometimes I think religion really IS the opiate of the masses. When you take apart the component pieces, the rhetoric makes no sense to me. I believe in something, and I think everyone has an internal moral compass, and when you externalize everything so much and live by those laws too stringently, you miss the whole point of what the religious figure was trying to convey.

[Pocky]

Originally posted by moimeme

So? I'm not sure what the concern is about being sinful. Yes, we are. And if we regret our sins, we're forgiven. So where's the problem?

 

There isn't a problem - I was responding to your post that we have a choice in whether or not we're sinful.

 

---------Side Note-----------

 

Really - I'm sorry I even posted the original question to begin with. I was just trying to understand something specifically related to what I was studying and I merely responded to posts that were presented to me.

[quankanne]

I was just trying to understand something specifically related to what I was studying and I merely responded to posts that were presented to me

 

did we help or hinder your understanding?

[PatientOne]

Originally posted by Moose

No, please don't misunderstand, we aren't trying to erase corruption. That's impossible. We have, though, accepted the fact that we are corrupt, and will remain corrupt.

 

Speak for yourself.

 

Pocky, this thread an excellent course in why Christianity is such a farce. And Moose being Moose, shows blind dogma in action.

[Moose]

Speak for yourself.

I was, and.......

Pocky, this thread an excellent course in why Christianity is such a farce. And Moose being Moose, shows blind dogma in action.

Practice what you preach.

[PatientOne]

You're doing the preaching here, Moose. I'm not inferring everyone here is sinful.

[Moose]

Patient One,

 

I'm not saying everyone is FULL of sin........I am saying that there is noone here who is sinless. I'm not here to argue with you about having to spell every little thing out for you either. This is the last I'll say anything about this too.

 

I apologize for this Pocky.

[PatientOne]

Originally posted by Moose

Patient One,

 

I'm not saying everyone is FULL of sin........I am saying that there is noone here who is sinless.

 

 

See now, thats the thing. I am fortunate enough to have a 6 month old granddaughter who lives with us. As I look at this beautiful child, it is absurd to think of any baby being born with the burden of Original Sin. This is just one of the myths that the church has used for centuries to further indebt its followers to the whole mythos.

 

It doesn't matter if you consider someone full of sin, or just kinda sinful- either way, you're dumping blame on the blameless.

[Moose]

See now, thats the thing. I am fortunate enough to have a 6 month old granddaughter who lives with us.

Awwww, that's so sweet!

As I look at this beautiful child, it is absurd to think of any baby being born with the burden of Original Sin.

I know what you mean. There is such a thing as an age of accountablity though. If anything were to happen to her, she wouldn't be held accountable for the Original Sin placed on her.

This is just one of the myths that the church has used for centuries to further indebt its followers to the whole mythos.

This is only your opinion. It doesn't mean it's the say all end all......just like everyone else on this forum.

 

Here I said I wasn't going to say anything else, but I thought this needed cleared up.