Struggling With The Faith

[WonderKid]

I've never grown up in a Christian home nor the environment. My mom had eras where she would go and sometimes forced us to go, but as we got older it was whatever. Around 19, I went to a basketball night at a church where we moved. I met an older guy there: a wife, two kids--a son and younger daughter, he invited me to Sunday services and it went from there.

 

I also went to Bible studies. This church is actually the best I have ever experienced. Very diverse. They sing in Spanish and Swahili. They touch on a lot of tough subjects positively. They even had a whole sermon dedicated to encourage couples to have more sex. And on homosexuality.

 

But as I am getting older, I am getting more agitated. The Bible studies are what get me. It just seems like the Bible programs you how to think. It kinda rubs me the wrong way. And it is something that is irrefutable. I don't like being told how to think and being convicted for thoughts I cannot control.

After all I am human. Can the art of being human and religion coexist?

 

A man looks a woman in a pretty dress, gets lustful thoughts. But he cannot help it, he's a guy. Same for a woman. They are good people. But this thought pops up in their head. They repent to only do it again--because it is something that cannot stop.

 

Even reading in John, there was a passage that stated, getting angry at someone is a sin. How is that? Not everyone can be a pacifist.

 

Also, at the Bible study the question was asked; what about those on remote islands and vast jungles that know nothing of the word or God or Jesus.

Are they condemned to punishment?

 

The Bible somehow answers this. Implying that there is no excuse. Basically God is everywhere and he will show himself everywhere. Those people will see a sign, or him, and it is their choice to accept it or not.

 

I do not believe that. That cannot be right. Those people did not grow up in modern civilization so they will no nothing about religion, all they know is life, live, and death.

 

I also watched two documentaries on North Korea. This is what furthered my belief. Because in North Korea you are not allow: cell phones, youtube, books in other history, cameras, NOTHING! From the time you are born, you are programmed to know that Kim Jong-un is your god and savior and the reason you are breathing. If you don't then you die. If you go over there talking about Jesus Christ, they won't even know who you are talking about; literally! They won't even combat his name because they would be thinking that you are talking of an average Joe or someone.

Are those people deemed to be punished? It isn't even their fault.

 

This is such an ever-strange world we stay in. How are humans so superior to animals? They don't worship anything. There is no racism. All they know is life, live, and death.

[endlessabyss]

No one can live by the standard Jesus lived by; it's impossible.

 

 

It's a given that humans will sin, it's impossible not to. God knew this, that is why he created a different covenant with the Gentiles.

 

 

These laws are only useful to bring people to God, after that they have served their purpose. If people continue to bound themselves to the law, and try to live it to perfection, all it will do is create suffering.

 

 

If people understood these things better they wouldn't look at it as this black and white "Listen, or you go to hell".

 

 

I have no problem co-existing with God, even in sin. I don't sin because I want to, it's because part of my nature here on earth.

 

 

I minimize it the best I can.

 

 

Everyone around the world has a basic concept of God, even if they don't believe. People in Korea are aware of Christianity; they are just persecuted if they follow it.

 

 

Study more.

 

 

I got frustrated with this stuff early on, but the more I learn, the less frustrating it becomes.

[youngskywalker]

As a former born-again christian, I can only say, don't be afraid to ask the hard questions.

 

Christianity is simply a religious cult. That is why you are taught to NOT question the truth or authority of the bible.

[Mr Scorpio]

The Bible somehow answers this. Implying that there is no excuse. Basically God is everywhere and he will show himself everywhere. Those people will see a sign, or him, and it is their choice to accept it or not.

 

I do not believe that. That cannot be right. Those people did not grow up in modern civilization so they will no nothing about religion, all they know is life, live, and death.

 

Of course it is implied. Now, why do you suppose that is?

[autumnnight]

It just seems like the Bible programs you how to think.

 

This is addressed in Romans 12:2 pretty directly. I wouldn't say that the Bible programs you. I would say that for those who belong to Him, the truth of the Bible transforms our hearts and minds and we want to live by its principles. And when we don't, then yes, we are convicted because His Holy Spirit in us lets us know that we have sinned. That isn't meant to be a bludgeoning stick, but rather a check, sort of like a fence protecting us from a cliff or pain letting us know something is wrong in our bodies and we need to go to the doctor.

 

As for whether the Bible is true or Christianity is a cult, each person will choose for themselves what they believe. And 100 years from now, we will be in the midst of whatever eternity we chose.

[Robert Z]

How do you tell the difference between the holy spirit, and something like a Pavlovian response to guilt conditioning from childhood, social conditioning, abuse, brainwashing by TV evangelists...

 

 

Sin is like UFO reports. There is a running narrative in the public mind that influences the perception of events. No one can claim objective independent feelings when ideas of right and wrong have been drilled into them since early childhood.

 

Boys who masturbate go blind, you know.

[autumnnight]

I do not think anyone who masturbates goes blind. That is no where in the Bible, and despite the incorrect interpretation of that whole "apilling the seed passage," there is actually no real Biblical evidence that simply masturbating is a sin.

 

However, the idea that adultery or stealing is a sin has nothing to do with Pavlov or salivating dogs. It is very clearly written, and those who say they believe the Bible should strive not to do those things.

 

The blindness and masturbation remark is a typical extreme pot shot that people who cannot leave others alone in tolerance of their individual beliefs take to make said faith appear irrational. Just because I believe I should love God and love my neighbor as myself doesn't mean I think masturbation makes people blind.

 

Your argument is invalid.

 

Like I said somewhere else, the word tolerance is used more by hypocrites than by anyone else.

[GorillaTheater]

My wife is a strong Christian. Me, not so much.

 

So much of it makes perfect sense, but there are certain concepts which make no sense at all to me.

 

1. Eternal hell. If you argue that "hell" is simply non-existence, I could buy into that, except that Jesus was pretty clear on the whole "lake of fire" thing. Except that Jesus was also given to exageration to make a point. I have a problem with the whole concept of eternal punishment for not accepting salvation, when God knew man would fall and f*ck up. It seems wildly harsh and yes, unGodly.

 

2. Hebrews talks about blood being required to cover sin, and that Jesus was the perfect sin sacrifice. Well, why? Because that's God's plan and it doesn't have to make sense. Okay, but it still strikes me as a little pagan, if you'll pardon me saying so.

 

3. So much evil happens in the world. God could stop it if He wanted to. I'm still not entirely clear on why He doesn't.

 

But I'm not an atheist, or even an agnostic. I just don't know that I'll ever be able to reconcile my beliefs.

[TheFinalWord]

But as I am getting older, I am getting more agitated. The Bible studies are what get me. It just seems like the Bible programs you how to think. It kinda rubs me the wrong way. And it is something that is irrefutable. I don't like being told how to think and being convicted for thoughts I cannot control.

 

What you have touched upon is a natural proclivity we all have towards our own opinion and self-justification. In a word, pride. You can convince yourself anything is right, if you want to. It's a natural ability we have to justify and vindicate our own actions. Yes, I should not have lied, BUT...(insert excuse)...

 

We do not like someone telling us x or y is wrong. We especially do not like God to tell us something is wrong. To avoid this people will often concoct a self-made God that suits their own desires (often without knowing it; heck I have even done it and would have just continued if God had not intervened and I was not engaged in introspection).

 

The only method to prevent this is to discern the messages that are around us and filter them through the bible, e.g. God's wisdom. In addition, introspection and community with other believers.

 

Most of the types of questions you are asking, e.g. what role does general revelation vs. special revelation play in salvation are more apologetic type of questions which you can research Ad nauseam. I do wish churches did a better job of equipping congregation with these types of resources. Regarding these types of questions, a person can also suffer paralysis by analysis and you end up getting nowhere but more frustrated. Sometimes, instead of wondering about how God does it, and trying to find some loophole in the bible, I find it more edifying to just get involved. It is like a business plan. You can plan until you are blue in the face, and have a contingency for every "what if" scenario, but in order to actually change the market, eventually you have to act. This is what I mean about paralysis by analysis. People will argue forever especially on forums about how all of these loopholes; meanwhile, they are not actually doing anything about it (myself included). You will get a lot more satisfaction if you actively engage in some ministry. We can all play armchair quarterback and tear apart the institution of religion.

Edited April 7, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[alphamale]

Also, at the Bible study the question was asked; what about those on remote islands and vast jungles that know nothing of the word or God or Jesus.

Are they condemned to punishment?

they will burn in hell, not knowing is no excuse

[hoping2heal]

Wonderkid,

 

Unlike you, I actually was brought up into a very Christian environment. For a long time, I did everything I could to truly "walk the walk" as they say. I did not want to be a Sunday-morning Christian. I ignored non-Christian music, movies, television, books, etc. I prayed, watched my language, behaved chaste and dressed modestly. Eventually, there were some cracks in the foundation. The big problem is I started to have questions. You may call them doubts, but they were genuine curiosities as I tried to understand. The most often answer I got was some semblance of "God has the answers, not us, we must trust him". Okay.

 

The youth pastor said something to me once that really struck me funny. He was quoting a statistic about the percentage of people who are not saved by a certain age (I thought it was either 18 or 21, or something like that) that they never would be. Now, he intended it to be a means of inspiration - for all of us to go out and save souls of our peer youth. But, I got to thinking about it. The adult mind does not actually finish developing until the late 20's. I felt like the true message is that if you can't convince someone while they are young enough, before their judgement is fully formed, in many cases you are not going to be able to at all.

 

Then there was the time I met an athiest who blew my mind. A very kind, well put together, cheerful woman and I couldn't understand how she could be so loving, so compassionate, so full of kindness and happiness..but she was atheist.

 

One of the most awesome, influential people we'd known in our church was killed just a few months after his wedding during a literal, freak accident. He was severely burned and only lasted 2 weeks. There was a lot of prayer for healing; this guy was so talented and influential, literally traveled both nationally and globally. You can't tell me he couldn't have influenced more people and "saved" more souls; yet he died. The healing that was dutifully prayed for never came. But again I was assured, it was selfish of me to want to keep him on earth, it was selfish to think I knew better than the will of God. Okay.

 

I also had other questions like you, about people living in remote places, etc. Indigenous tribes and the like. One day I thought to myself "you know, if someone put a gun to my head and told me I had to tell them I loved them and only them or they would pull the trigger, well..I would consider that emotionally manipulative at the least" So, why is threatening to condemn people to hell if they believe any other way but yours any different? I also wondered, "Why did God make me this way if it's a bad thing? Why did he give me this mind that is capable of questioning at all, if all he wants is complete and total submission, loyalty, and trust...why did he make me this way?"

 

Eventually, my devotion to that one way of life lead to a quest to better understand other people and not just the way I was taught to believe. I'm just one person, I don't claim to have the right answers but I wanted to reply to tell you that you aren't the only one out there to have questions. The more I learn about others, other cultures, other belief systems, the more difficult of time I have swallowing the idea that every single person on earth must follow only one way of thinking. Also, in time, I have stopped shaming myself for natural thoughts and feelings. You can't go acting on every single impulse you have (says me ) but your thoughts are your thoughts. We were physiologically designed to have certain responses to certain stimuli , depending on what it is. I am all done feeling guilty for being born and feeling guilty for things of which I have no control over.

 

I always consider myself "in transition" so to speak. New knowledge and discoveries happen all of the time. I try my best to be open to the world, not closed off.

[WonderKid]

Thanks everyone for the natural replies. I don't mean to bash the religion. It's just hard not to question. I think too rationally for my own good as I say. As I get older I continue to struggle with this. I mean, could it be pride? Maybe.

I am a naturally rebellious spirit. Yet I will STFU and listen when needed. You cannot learn if you don't listen.

But I've been meaning to elaborate on these things for a while now.

 

For wanting a loved one to remain in Earth, it can be viewed as selfish, but you have known and spent time with this person for majority of your life. And to want them to stay alive for longer, is only a natural affect.

[WonderKid]

Of course it is implied. Now, why do you suppose that is?

 

Maybe to have an undisputed answer for everything. I really don't know. But it just baffles me. Those people won't know what God is. They probably wouldn't worship anything. And it is said God is a great God, so he wouldn't hold it against them. Right?

[badpenny]

And this is why I eventually switched boats mid-stream and now find myself on a simpler, yet more difficult path.

 

Because event though it's a tougher call, there are the same questions, yet every question has a logical response.

 

And that is satisfying, because I wouldn't quit asking them...

 

With Metta.

 

_/l\_

[autumnnight]

Maybe to have an undisputed answer for everything. I really don't know. But it just baffles me. Those people won't know what God is. They probably wouldn't worship anything. And it is said God is a great God, so he wouldn't hold it against them. Right?

 

I cannot give you a litany of verses for this, except that the Bible says he does not want any to perish, but all to come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I believe that no matter where they are, if someone truly seeks and wants to know the truth, it will be revealed to them somehow. It may be through missionaries, through literature, even through creation (the Bible says that creation itself testifies).

[Timshel]

Maybe to have an undisputed answer for everything. I really don't know. But it just baffles me. Those people won't know what God is. They probably wouldn't worship anything. And it is said God is a great God, so he wouldn't hold it against them. Right?

 

Follow what is inside you. Trust you, God is not outside of you or anyone.