Women don't play by the rules

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

Providing and protecting are primal attraction cues. A fresh kill, or a cup of coffee, for me? Oh, thank you!

 

Okay. THAT'S some funny $hit.

 

 

.

[toolforgrowth]

It's interesting how different women view chivalry. For me, date-wise, chivalry means a guy holding the door open for me when we're walking into a restaurant (or any building), or him walking to the passenger side of the car and opening the car door for me, him gently placing his hand on the small of my back when we're entering an establishment or about to be seated at a table or when he listens to me intently as I speak about something without him interrupting me or thinking about what he's going to say next.

 

I guess those things could count as a guy being (polite) gentlemanly also. None of those things costs the guy any money for him to do for me on a date and if he did even ONE of those things (let alone all of them), I'd feel special and I'd think that he was being chivalrous. Him doing all of those things because he wanted to would turn me on enough to stir within me the desire to unzip his pants with my teeth in the near future lol

 

There's NO way (on heaven, earth or in hell) that I would allow any guy to pay my way entirely on a date! Only when it's been communicated between the two of us that we're totally into each other would I allow a guy to pay my way for anything; and even then, I'd pay my way a lot of the time so he wouldn't feel any obligation to pay for me. Now, if by that time, he insisted on paying my way for something, then I'd feel comfy with it because it was already acknowledged mutually that we feel a connection together. Anything less than this scenario, and um, I'd feel VERY uncomfortable and weird letting the guy pay for me for ANYTHING.

 

A guy doesn't have to spend any of his money on me in order for me to be impressed with him or for him to turn me on. If he behaves towards me in a respectful, gentlemanly and chivalrous way, trust me....that alone is enough to make me tingle in all kinds of places.

 

 

.

 

This is one of the best posts I've ever read by a lady. I definitely believe in chivalry; I do all of those things for any date, regardless of whether or not I pay for her.

 

You're a cool lady.

[elaine567]

You lose all credibility with me here. You cannot simultaneously say that it's okay for women to break out of their gender roles but not okay for men. That is a double standard and hypocrisy at its finest. Because the flip side is that your financial well being would then become my responsibility; there is no amount of cooking, cleaning, and sex that you could offer that would ever make me want to go back to the 1950's and accept responsibility for your well being and survival.

 

If you don't want to submit to male power, then be independent and pay for yourself like a responsible adult and don't expect a man to do it. Take that power away from him and do it yourself. You're capable, aren't you?

 

Of course you are.

Why is me not accepting gender roles, suddenly turned into males having to accept responsibility for my financial well being?

So you really want me to accept my gender role and pay my way too, I get it.

[toolforgrowth]

Providing and protecting are primal attraction cues. A fresh kill, or a cup of coffee, for me? Oh, thank you!

 

I just spit water all over my keyboard...

 

Fresh kill...LOL

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

I think the big issue men have with always paying is how many women thumb their nose at traditional roles on their part. Ask a woman to play her traditional role in dating or a relationship and a man is shouted down as a misogynist but then we turn around and are expected to do always pay and open doors and all that stuff. The hypocrisy gets on our nerves.

 

Just curious...when you "ask" a woman to "play HER traditional role in dating or in a relationship", what does that entail to you? (Hoping to God that your answer isn't trippy...)

 

 

.

[toolforgrowth]

Why is me not accepting gender roles, suddenly turned into males having to accept responsibility for my financial well being?

So you really want me to accept my gender role and pay my way too, I get it.

 

What I was trying to convey was that the kowtowing era to which you were referring doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't for a long time. But if that's what you truly believe men want (which most don't), then the result for the man in that situation would be to have to work extra to provide for you financially. You would basically become another dependent. That is precisely what I, and most other men today, wish to avoid. We don't want dependents. We want partners.

 

My daughter is entitled to expect me to pay for her things. A grown woman isn't.

[ltjg45]

Time is free. Money isn't. I've spent time with women and said "No more, she ain't worth it." But I'm not out cold hard cash that could be used for other things (such as myself or my daughter).

 

Time is free?

 

I have to differ. Time is the most valuable thing a human has because we got a fixed amount of it before we leave this world.

 

You can always make more money. You can't make more time. Once I turn 29 in September, I can't go back and be 28 again. That year has passed and it is not coming back.

 

That is something money can never get back. Once I become old and weak, I can't do anything to be young and healthy again. Time won't allow that.

[clia]

I guess I couldn't understand why someone would be turned on by a complete stranger paying for their meal (even if it's just a cup of java); I would feel weirded out and would pay my own way, regardless of what it was just so I would be on equal footing with the guy. But, like you said, turn ons vary from person to person and for various reasons.

 

I like food very much. I also like wine and beer and other neat drinks. So, when a man provides those things to me, by way of paying for me on a date, it makes me swoon. It makes me happy. The men who have cared about me the most always wanted to make sure I was well fed and they wanted to buy it for me.

 

Maybe it goes back to the traditional male provider role, I don't know. I do like men who are men. But it's just not impressive (for me) to be asked out on a date and to not be treated. Or to have a guy start calculating how much I owe. Talk about unromantic. Just because I can support myself and can afford my own food, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate it very much when a man pays for me on a date. I don't view myself as any less of an equal to him merely because he paid. But honestly, for me, if a guy was too financially strapped (or didn't want) to buy me a glass of wine or a beer on a first date, he would not have been my type anyway. I preferred to date men who were more financially together.

Edited April 14, 2015 by clia

[toolforgrowth]

Time is free?

 

I have to differ. Time is the most valuable thing a human has because we got a fixed amount of it before we leave this world.

 

You can always make more money. You can't make more time. Once I turn 29 in September, I can't go back and be 28 again. That year has passed and it is not coming back.

 

That is something money can never get back. Once I become old and weak, I can't do anything to be young and healthy again. Time won't allow that.

 

Dude, I'm 35 and wasted seven years with an ex wife who ended up cheating on me. No offense, but I think I know a little bit more about "time I'll never get back" than you do.

 

With that being said, spending a couple hours sipping $5 worth of coffee is a smaller investment than spending two hours eating a $60 meal that I'm paying for, especially if the date doesn't go well.

 

Apples to oranges.

[Phoe]

See I'm perfectly capable of seeing the romantic side of a man spending money on a woman.

 

But in my overly logical and analytical head, I prefer that a man not spend money on me. I was accustomed with my all my exes except for my most recent, that gifts were not given, and everyone paid for themselves. Just makes it super easy, no expectations.

 

But with my most recent ex, he paid for my coffee on the first date. And then on the next date, to Denny's he bought my food too.

 

And then came the little gifts, like my favorite candy or fruit.

 

And of course, my heart melted and I felt very cared for. And then my brain went and ruined it with overly analytical feelings of guilt and I'd start blustering on about how he didn't have to buy these things and it's so sweet and I don't deserve it and I just turned into this bumbling mess that felt so wrong about having money spent.

 

Even when a friend is running to the soda machine to get a soda, he says "hey, want one?" and I'll say "no, thank you!" and he says "are you sure? I know you like Dr.Pepper." and I'm like "oh yeah, I'm fine, I've got water." and he says "I'm just gonna get you a Dr.Pepper, I know you like them" and in my head it's like sirens are going off and I'm like "OH GOD someone's spending money on me!!!!" - and I don't know WHY I feel so guilty about even just a $1.00 soda.

 

Perhaps it's my independent streak. I fight tooth and nail to make sure that nobody ever feels obliged to buy something for me... and I don't know why.

 

My heart and my brain are all too often at odds. One of them's gotta shut off every now and then. I'd appreciate it!

[Quiet Storm]

I am also a woman who chooses more traditional gender roles. I'm perfectly cool with me & my daughter making cookies while my husband and sons are outside shoveling snow. He drives whenever we go places together, so that means I don't have to deal with the traffic. Fine with me! I like to cook, so don't mind making meals. He'll cook weekend breakfasts and oit on the grill. I delegate a lot of the housecleaning to the kids and they do their own laundry. He carries in the groceries, warms up the car, cuts the grass, etc. He is protective and likes doing things for me, and I appreciate it. Traditional gender roles work for us, but it's still my choice and my natural way. If a woman doesn't want traditional gender roles in her relationship, then that's OK, too.

[ltjg45]

Dude, I'm 35 and wasted seven years with an ex wife who ended up cheating on me. No offense, but I think I know a little bit more about "time I'll never get back" than you do.

 

With that being said, spending a couple hours sipping $5 worth of coffee is a smaller investment than spending two hours eating a $60 meal that I'm paying for, especially if the date doesn't go well.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

Well, I know I wouldn't treat a woman that isn't my girlfriend/wife to a $60 meal, regardless of how much I make.

 

Seriously though, I would call that common sense. If I wouldn't spend $60 on myself outside of necessities, why would I do that for a woman that I may not even get into a relationship with?

 

Not to mention that would give the signal that I may be getting desperate and trying too hard, which is not a good sign. How many other guys out there would drop that kind of money on a first date outside of celebrities and not be terribly concerned about the results unless they expect something in return (like sex)?

 

So I fully agree with you on that.

[elaine567]

What I was trying to convey was that the kowtowing era to which you were referring doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't for a long time. But if that's what you truly believe men want (which most don't), then the result for the man in that situation would be to have to work extra to provide for you financially. You would basically become another dependent. That is precisely what I, and most other men today, wish to avoid. We don't want dependents. We want partners.

 

My daughter is entitled to expect me to pay for her things. A grown woman isn't.

 

Seems you are mixing yourself up, kowtowing is dead yet you say "If you don't want to submit to male power, then be independent and pay for yourself like a responsible adult and don't expect a man to do it. Take that power away from him and do it yourself. You're capable, aren't you?"

So any woman who is not financially independent through perhaps having to look after his children, has to submit herself to male power, and that is not kowtowing?

[toolforgrowth]

See I'm perfectly capable of seeing the romantic side of a man spending money on a woman.

 

But in my overly logical and analytical head, I prefer that a man not spend money on me. I was accustomed with my all my exes except for my most recent, that gifts were not given, and everyone paid for themselves. Just makes it super easy, no expectations.

 

But with my most recent ex, he paid for my coffee on the first date. And then on the next date, to Denny's he bought my food too.

 

And then came the little gifts, like my favorite candy or fruit.

 

And of course, my heart melted and I felt very cared for. And then my brain went and ruined it with overly analytical feelings of guilt and I'd start blustering on about how he didn't have to buy these things and it's so sweet and I don't deserve it and I just turned into this bumbling mess that felt so wrong about having money spent.

 

Even when a friend is running to the soda machine to get a soda, he says "hey, want one?" and I'll say "no, thank you!" and he says "are you sure? I know you like Dr.Pepper." and I'm like "oh yeah, I'm fine, I've got water." and he says "I'm just gonna get you a Dr.Pepper, I know you like them" and in my head it's like sirens are going off and I'm like "OH GOD someone's spending money on me!!!!" - and I don't know WHY I feel so guilty about even just a $1.00 soda.

 

Perhaps it's my independent streak. I fight tooth and nail to make sure that nobody ever feels obliged to buy something for me... and I don't know why.

 

My heart and my brain are all too often at odds. One of them's gotta shut off every now and then. I'd appreciate it!

 

I'll repeat this, just in case you missed it earlier in the thread. It's not the money itself that's the issue, it's when women expect their man or date to pay for them simply because they're the woman. You have never struck me as that kind of person.

 

I gladly pay for my dates with my GF. She's interning right now and doesn't have much money. I don't let that stand in the way of us having fun, so I pay and take us out. The difference is that she doesn't expect nor require me to do so. It's 100% my choice to make, I never hold it over her head, and it's one I'm happy to make.

 

If a guy asks of his own accord and you're not getting a "weird strings attached" vibe, feel free to say yes and take it with gratitude. If he bitches about it later on, then it's his problem!

[autumnnight]

I think the thing for me is that I just flat don't think that much. I meet someone for coffee, we are in line, I say "I can get mine" casually. If he says, "No, I' got it," I say thanks and go on. If a man asks me to dinner and the waitress says, "Are these together?" if I haven't already offered to split, I will address it then, but most of the time a man will say "together." In which case I tell him thank you and express appreciation, or maybe say "You don't have to."

 

But honestly, while I am doing this, I am not thinking about math or accounting or keeping the scoreboard even. I'm just trying to be thoughtful. When he pays, opens a door, etc. I just assume HE is being thoughtful. I do not weigh secret motives based on the amount of the meal or the size of the tip. I don't wonder if he figures I'm a gold digger because I let him buy my salad or chicken or whatever.

 

I just try to fix up nice, enjoy his company, and if we click I hope he asks again.

 

Maybe I'm just simple-minded? Maybe I should be looking for selfish conspiracies under all the napkins?

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

I like food very much. I also like wine and beer and other neat drinks. So, when a man provides those things to me, by way of paying for me on a date, it makes me swoon. It makes me happy. The men who have cared about me the most always wanted to make sure I was well fed and they wanted to buy it for me.

 

Maybe it goes back to the traditional male provider role, I don't know. I do like men who are men. But it's just not impressive (for me) to be asked out on a date and to not be treated. Or to have a guy start calculating how much I owe. Talk about unromantic. Just because I can support myself and can afford my own food, it doesn't mean I don't appreciate it very much when a man pays for me on a date. I don't view myself as any less of an equal to him merely because he paid. But honestly, for me, if a guy was too financially strapped to buy me a glass of wine or a beer on a first date, he would not have been my type anyway. I preferred to date men who were more financially together.

 

Wow. Um...I have so many problems with this post, I don't even know where to begin.

 

First of all, men aren't "men" just because they pay for a woman's mug of beer, a glass of wine, a body shot or a lobster-crab-shrimp fest at Red Lobster. Men are men by the way they TREAT a woman with RESPECT, COURTESY and INTEGRITY. When a man 'cares' about you 'the most', it does NOT involve him making sure you're "well fed" and that he "paid for it".

 

So, if a guy asked you out on a date and didn't pay your way, that wouldn't 'impress' you? You should be impressed that he was interested enough in you to ASK you out in the first place. And, if a guy is 'too financially strapped' to pay YOUR way on a date, he would NOT have been 'your type' anyway? Wow, if that was the case for reals, I'd say that guy dodged a bullet. What if said guy has financial OBLIGATIONS of his own to meet? What if he has kids, or has other bills to pay which are none of your damn business to know?

 

You sound very materialistic and money oriented to me. But, this is just my opinion. So, in closing...you prefer to date guys who are more financially 'together', so they can pay for YOUR meals to make sure YOU'RE "well fed" - even though you're more than capable of paying for your own meals?

 

Damn.

 

 

.

[toolforgrowth]

Seems you are mixing yourself up, kowtowing is dead yet you say "If you don't want to submit to male power, then be independent and pay for yourself like a responsible adult and don't expect a man to do it. Take that power away from him and do it yourself. You're capable, aren't you?"

So any woman who is not financially independent through perhaps having to look after his children, has to submit herself to male power, and that is not kowtowing?

 

Personally, I believe that the "male power" to which you refer is utter horse$h!t. That may have been true at one point, but not today.

 

What I find mixed up is how on one hand you deride "male power" and in the same breath you argue why you still need men to pay your way. That circular logic almost literally makes my brain short circuit. Because men have power, you have to be financially dependent on them when you go out? That is liberating for women how?

 

I submit that a man is just as dependent on woman who looks after his children as the woman is on the man who pays the bills. It is not a power struggle. It is not a matter of "which is better".

 

And no one forced you to stay home. When I was married, my ex wife worked (most of the time) and the children went to day care. You staying home is a choice that you made,for better or for worse.

[Phoe]

I'll repeat this, just in case you missed it earlier in the thread. It's not the money itself that's the issue, it's when women expect their man or date to pay for them simply because they're the woman. You have never struck me as that kind of person.

 

I gladly pay for my dates with my GF. She's interning right now and doesn't have much money. I don't let that stand in the way of us having fun, so I pay and take us out. The difference is that she doesn't expect nor require me to do so. It's 100% my choice to make, I never hold it over her head, and it's one I'm happy to make.

 

If a guy asks of his own accord and you're not getting a "weird strings attached" vibe, feel free to say yes and take it with gratitude. If he bitches about it later on, then it's his problem!

 

It's not a matter of worrying about the expectation, it's quite simply a matter of me feeling guilty when money is spent on me.

 

My friend is quite happy to buy me a soda, I know that, especially when I've helped him out with something.

 

The problem is that no matter how genuine the person is, or how cheap the item is, I feel guilty. I just hate having money spent on me, makes me feel bad. That's money that they worked to earn, and could've spent on themselves, so the gesture of spending hard earned money on me is just too overwhelming to me.

[toolforgrowth]

It's not a matter of worrying about the expectation, it's quite simply a matter of me feeling guilty when money is spent on me.

 

My friend is quite happy to buy me a soda, I know that, especially when I've helped him out with something.

 

The problem is that no matter how genuine the person is, or how cheap the item is, I feel guilty. I just hate having money spent on me, makes me feel bad. That's money that they worked to earn, and could've spent on themselves, so the gesture of spending hard earned money on me is just too overwhelming to me.

 

Oh, gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

 

My GF feels the way you do; she said that to this day out still weirds her out that I pay for stuff for her. She's grateful, but still not used to it. I just do it anyway! Lol

[elaine567]

Personally, I believe that the "male power" to which you refer is utter horse$h!t. That may have been true at one point, but not today.

 

What I find mixed up is how on one hand you deride "male power" and in the same breath you argue why you still need men to pay your way. That circular logic almost literally makes my brain short circuit. Because men have power, you have to be financially dependent on them when you go out? That is liberating for women how?

 

I submit that a man is just as dependent on woman who looks after his children as the woman is on the man who pays the bills. It is not a power struggle. It is not a matter of "which is better".

 

And no one forced you to stay home. When I was married, my ex wife worked (most of the time) and the children went to day care. You staying home is a choice that you made,for better or for worse.

 

I do not believe a man should pay for all dates, whatever gave you that idea.

I did not choose to "stay at home", I have no kids either. I have always paid my way, I personally have always been independent, but many women aren't, through no fault apart from raising children, was the point, I made.

You seem to suggest that they then have to submit to "male power" as they are then in the traditional female role and in order to escape "male power" they need to be earning.

"male power" you now say is horsesh*t, but they are actually your words.

[clia]

Wow. Um...I have so many problems with this post, I don't even know where to begin.

 

Sweet.

 

First of all, men aren't "men" just because they pay for a woman's mug of beer, a glass of wine, a body shot or a lobster-crab-shrimp fest at Red Lobster. Men are men by the way they TREAT a woman with RESPECT, COURTESY and INTEGRITY. When a man 'cares' about you 'the most', it does NOT involve him making sure you're "well fed" and that he "paid for it".

 

Being treated with respect, courtesy, and integrity includes being treated when a man has asked you out on a date. (At least to me.) I personally don't find it romantic when a man asks me out on a date and wants to go halfsies. Men who care about you want to make sure you are content and happy and they derive joy out of making you happy. I really don't understand why you are so outraged by this viewpoint.

 

So, if a guy asked you out on a date and didn't pay your way, that wouldn't 'impress' you?

 

No, it wouldn't. Why would it? I'm not saying he has to take me to Alinea, for God's sakes.

 

You should be impressed that he was interested enough in you to ASK you out in the first place.

 

Why? I'm pretty awesome. I think he's smart to recognize that. And I'm a fun date.

 

And, if a guy is 'too financially strapped' to pay YOUR way on a date, he would NOT have been 'your type' anyway?

 

No, because I have all of my ducks in a row financially. That's what I was looking for in a man. If a 30 or 40 year old man can't manage to buy me a drink on a first date, that's a huge red flag for me.

 

Wow, if that was the case for reals, I'd say that guy dodged a bullet.

 

Why?

 

What if said guy has financial OBLIGATIONS of his own to meet? What if he has kids, or has other bills to pay which are none of your damn business to know?

 

 

If he's in such dire straights, then he should be planning free dates where his finances won't be an issue.

 

You sound very materialistic and money oriented to me.

 

If I am, it's because I did well for myself financially, so I merely expect the same out of the man I date. (Or used to date...I'm married now.)

 

But, this is just my opinion. So, in closing...you prefer to date guys who are more financially 'together', so they can pay for YOUR meals to make sure YOU'RE "well fed" - even though you're more than capable of paying for your own meals?

 

Yes. I preferred to date men who were financially secure enough to be able to treat a woman to dinner or drinks when they asked her out on a date. I don't see why you are so offended by that. I never had any problem getting dates with those types of men, either. It's only on this board that I see the outrage from men about paying on dates.

 

And I'm talking about the early dates, not the entire relationship.

[123321]

It almost seems like gamer culture to me. Like the perception is that women are like MOBs in a game and you should be able to apply A + B + C and always get the desired result. "WTF? I first cast Dark Reflection on her with my Bracelet of Opulence, then used my level 37 Card of Summoning (aka American Express), switched into cat form and used my Scimitar of Need and the Dagger of Nice in my off hand and still she won't go out with me again! WTF?! So unfair!"

 

I love that, and I'm amused anyone thinks there are rules.

[elaine567]

It's not a matter of worrying about the expectation, it's quite simply a matter of me feeling guilty when money is spent on me.

 

My friend is quite happy to buy me a soda, I know that, especially when I've helped him out with something.

 

The problem is that no matter how genuine the person is, or how cheap the item is, I feel guilty. I just hate having money spent on me, makes me feel bad. That's money that they worked to earn, and could've spent on themselves, so the gesture of spending hard earned money on me is just too overwhelming to me.

 

Phoe

Why Do Some People Find It Hard To Receive Gifts? | LMHC

[Phoe]

Phoe

Why Do Some People Find It Hard To Receive Gifts? | LMHC

 

This is spot on, really.

[Woggle]

I don't wish for women to kowtow to me or submit to male power or any of that. I just want the same love and respect from a woman that they demand from us. Be willing to give back what you ask of men. I don't think that is sexist or demeaning.