Women don't play by the rules

[toolforgrowth]

I agree with your statement, but what can we do? Most women won't budge, they'll just date someone else.

 

You know, this is very true. And this is where I blame our own gender. So many men out there have such little standards that they'll allow women to get away with anything for any of these reasons:

 

1) Sex

2) A desire to please women

3) Both

 

Men don't really have positive role models on what it means to be a man. Growing up, their fathers went to work while their mothers stayed at home. When they were school age, their teachers were by and large women, especially in elementary school. Thankfully there are a few more opportunities for possible male role models in high school and college (sports coaches, more male teachers, professors, ROTC, etc.), but by then they have already been mostly raised by women.

 

This is in no way a criticism towards women. This is a criticism of modern fathers with their sons. Boys need male interaction, otherwise their only interaction is with women, which causes them to become feminized. Boys need their fathers to show them what it's like to be a man. As do little girls, for their perception of what makes a man is first determined by her father.

 

Point is, they place far too high a value on how they are perceived by women. For most of their lives, the vast majority of their authority figures were women. That develops an ingrained behavior that becomes really hard to shed.

 

But it's one we have to learn how to do.

[Phoe]

You have to understand that you come from a completely different perspective than most women. I mean, the fact that your none of your boyfriends have spent more than $100 bucks on you total is abnormal in my opinion for your age. Most women in their 20s, who have dated guys for any period of time, get taken out to eat or drink, get gifts bought for them, etc. that far exceed $100. How much do your friends' boyfriends spend on them for birthdays, Christmas, anniversaries, dates, etc.? How much did your friends in college boyfriends spend on them for birthdays, Christmas, anniversaries, dates, etc.?

 

Some people find it to be a lot of fun to go out eating and drinking. I can get why you don't understand that since you seem to live in a place where Applebees and Denny's are the best food choices. If you are in a decent sized city and frequenting the popular joints, the costs can add up quite easily if you have a few drinks, some appetizers, and a good time. But if everyone involved has fun, then a good night was had by all, and...so what?

 

I guess I just think there's so much more to dating than eating and drinking... it's so incredibly trivial in comparison to what dating really is about.

 

And yes, eating good food and drinking yummy drinks can be an enjoyable thing. But when dating seems to revolve around it and hinge on it, when it becomes a make or break thing in the eyes of so many, I wonder what the heck is going on...

[clia]

I guess I just think there's so much more to dating than eating and drinking... it's so incredibly trivial in comparison to what dating really is about.

 

And yes, eating good food and drinking yummy drinks can be an enjoyable thing. But when dating seems to revolve around it and hinge on it, when it becomes a make or break thing in the eyes of so many, I wonder what the heck is going on...

 

Um...of course there's more to dating than eating and drinking. Who said dating is hinging on it or revolves around it? It's just another way to spend time together. Everyone needs to eat, so it's just an easy way to get together. I mean, you need to eat, right? So eat with me. Or whatever. For people who like food and drinks (or are foodie type people), it will be a great way to bond because you can share your meals. For people who don't, then they won't do that. They'll find something else to do on a date rather than eating or drinking.

 

I live in Chicago. It's totally normal to go on dates to eating and drinking establishments. For me and most of my girlfriends, a normal first date was to get a drink somewhere on a weeknight. Usually with appetizers, and if things are going well, a dinner. That's a typical date in your 30s in Chicago for a professional person.

[jay1983]

You know, this is very true. And this is where I blame our own gender. So many men out there have such little standards that they'll allow women to get away with anything for any of these reasons:

 

1) Sex

2) A desire to please women

3) Both

 

Men don't really have positive role models on what it means to be a man. Growing up, their fathers went to work while their mothers stayed at home. When they were school age, their teachers were by and large women, especially in elementary school. Thankfully there are a few more opportunities for possible male role models in high school and college (sports coaches, more male teachers, professors, ROTC, etc.), but by then they have already been mostly raised by women.

 

This is in no way a criticism towards women. This is a criticism of modern fathers with their sons. Boys need male interaction, otherwise their only interaction is with women, which causes them to become feminized. Boys need their fathers to show them what it's like to be a man. As do little girls, for their perception of what makes a man is first determined by her father.

 

Point is, they place far too high a value on how they are perceived by women. For most of their lives, the vast majority of their authority figures were women. That develops an ingrained behavior that becomes really hard to shed.

 

But it's one we have to learn how to do.

 

You're on to something here. I'm not sure if a father figure can fix this, cause he'll most likely tell his kid to "be a man and pay" lol IDK, I'm really sure about your conclusion, but men are definitely the problem. I mean the problem under the problem as in we've created these problems we're speaking about.

 

We compete with each other and throw each other under the bus. Overly aggressive men trying to bag every girl they can, even some they're not attracted to have created this attitude women have. Like the example of women using men for validation. Well aren't the men the ones trying so hard to impress her? Or women with bad attitudes, how to do you think they got that or became so vain? So many dudes hollering at them felt to right, wanting to take them out, ect.

 

There's no unity. If we all got together and said, stop hitting on them, kissing their asses, approaching them in public and wanting to hook up with them solely because they're attractive. The game would turn around, but that ain't gon happen. lol

[Phoe]

Um...of course there's more to dating than eating and drinking. Who said dating is hinging on it or revolves around it? It's just another way to spend time together. Everyone needs to eat, so it's just an easy way to get together. I mean, you need to eat, right? So eat with me. Or whatever. For people who like food and drinks (or are foodie type people), it will be a great way to bond because you can share your meals. For people who don't, then they won't do that. They'll find something else to do on a date rather than eating or drinking.

 

I live in Chicago. It's totally normal to go on dates to eating and drinking establishments. For me and most of my girlfriends, a normal first date was to get a drink somewhere on a weeknight. Usually with appetizers, and if things are going well, a dinner. That's a typical date in your 30s in Chicago for a professional person.

 

For people who are having an awesome time doing it, that's great! But my original post on the topic was towards a poster who doesn't appear to be having a great time of it. Seemed unhappy with the large amount of money spent on women who end up being not interested.

 

When someone is spending alot, is unhappy about it, but seems to brush it off with the mindset of "dating is expensive", I think it's important to emphasize that it doesn't have to be. So I spoke up.

 

I don't think it's fair at all for someone to think that spending money is the only way. THAT'S why I mentioned the concept of dating seeming to revolve around eating and drinking. Because a lot of people seem to be led to believe that's really the only way. But it's not the only way. Not at all!

[Anela]

I can't imagine it's very fun to spend large amount of money on drinks for women, just for them to not be interested in you. I can't see any fun in that at all.

 

If you wanna have a good time and spend money on drinks with buddies? Sure. But why dates?

 

They could still have a good time on the date, even if nothing further happens between them. I don't like the idea of someone only choosing to pay, if they're getting something more out of the interaction (like sex).

 

My father would be appalled by the guys who insist on splitting the bill, and he isn't a rich man (financially speaking - he considers himself extremely lucky, where his family is concerned).

[Phoe]

They could still have a good time on the date, even if nothing further happens between them. I don't like the idea of someone only choosing to pay, if they're getting something more out of the interaction (like sex).

 

My father would be appalled by the guys who insist on splitting the bill, and he isn't a rich man (financially speaking - he considers himself extremely lucky, where his family is concerned).

 

Like I said in my previous post, if both people are having fun, then great, no problems!

 

But my main reason for posting here was simply to share my perspective, to help out those men who feel that there isn't any alternative. Who feel like spending alot of money on dates is the only option. I'm not here to argue that dining out is wrong, or to hassle people who mutually enjoy it. I'm only here to offer a different perspective to the men that are frustrated with it.

[toolforgrowth]

My father would be appalled by the guys who insist on splitting the bill, and he isn't a rich man (financially speaking - he considers himself extremely lucky, where his family is concerned).

 

Your father grew up in a different time. Things are different now...much different.

 

What your father would be appalled by is irrelevant. The dating paradigm is completely different now from what it was then. Hell, society is completely different now. Go back in time 50 years ago and you're looking at a completely different USA (or wherever it is you hail from).

 

I don't care what things were when your father dated. That's irrelevant in the world in which I live today. The rules of the game have changed; men and women aren't owed anything based on their gender.

 

That's the way it is.

[Woggle]

Your father grew up in a different time. Things are different now...much different.

 

What your father would be appalled by is irrelevant. The dating paradigm is completely different now from what it was then. Hell, society is completely different now. Go back in time 50 years ago and you're looking at a completely different USA (or wherever it is you hail from).

 

I don't care what things were when your father dated. That's irrelevant in the world in which I live today. The rules of the game have changed; men and women aren't owed anything based on their gender.

 

That's the way it is.

 

Exactly. Things are an entirely different ball game today.

[Anela]

My Dad is the best man I know, and women love him. He has a strong sense of humour, a really good heart, isn't fussed by a lot of things that men go on about here, and has a sense of decorum that is timeless.

[Woggle]

My Dad is the best man I know, and women love him. He has a strong sense of humour, a really good heart, isn't fussed by a lot of things that men go on about here, and has a sense of decorum that is timeless.

 

Maybe true but those are qualities that don't mean much in today's dating world.

[Anela]

Maybe true but those are qualities that don't mean much in today's dating world.

 

Speaking as a woman, you are wrong.

[clia]

Women aren't owed anything and I think most women don't feel they are entitled to anything in this day and age, but that doesn't mean that traditions have completely gone by the wayside. It is super nice and impressive to be bought dinner (or drinks or whatever) by a man who has asked you out on a date. Period. It's not about entitlement. I don't expect it. I don't think I'm entitled to it because I'm a woman. But, if you, as a man, want to really impress me, you'll do it. You won't ask me out, take me to a restaurant or bar of your choosing, and then expect me to buy my own drink.

 

If you don't want to be that guy, then don't be that guy. Whatever. No skin off my back. It just means you probably won't get a second date. (I will say this -- if I don't like you, I will offer to pay for my share so I don't feel a guilt trip. But if I do like you or I'm on the fence, I won't offer.)

 

And yes, to Phoe's point, it doesn't have to be about money. Just do a free date if you really have such a problem spending a dime on a woman on a first or second date before you can decide if she likes you or not. Just go for a walk in the park or a walk around the bookstore (if you can find one) or a walk around the city or something like that. Or get a coffee or an ice cream cone. Or buy Subway and take her to the park, like one of the guys on this forum did. If that works for you, then work it.

[toolforgrowth]

It's not about entitlement. I don't expect it. I don't think I'm entitled to it because I'm a woman. But, if you, as a man, want to really impress me, you'll do it.

 

No. I won't.

 

You won't ask me out, take me to a restaurant or bar of your choosing, and then expect me to buy my own drink.

 

Yes. I will.

 

You are perfectly within your rights to never want to go out with me again. You are perfectly within your rights to reject my offer if you know I won't pay for you.

 

But I won't compromise my boundaries for your sake. Simply will not happen.

 

If you don't want to be that guy, then don't be that guy. Whatever. No skin off my back.

 

Excellent.

 

It just means you probably won't get a second date.

 

I can live with that.

 

Just do a free date if you really have such a problem spending a dime on a woman on a first or second date before you can decide if she likes you or not. Just go for a walk in the park or a walk around the bookstore (if you can find one) or a walk around the city or something like that.

 

This is the ideal solution. Completely agree with this.

 

But once you open your mouth and state that your level of attraction is essentially proportionate to the amount of money I spend on you, I'll bolt.

[toolforgrowth]

Speaking as a woman, you are wrong.

 

Clarification is needed here.

 

It's not as relevant in today's dating world because more men are becoming okay with losing out on dating prospects because of it. There are women out there who don't share your view. I was perfectly happy weeding through them until I found one, and I made her my GF.

 

There are tons of women out there to choose from.

[Woggle]

I know this sounds harsh but men owe women nothing. We always hear that women owe men nothing and the same can apply the other way around.

[calvincline47]

I know this sounds harsh but men owe women nothing. We always hear that women owe men nothing and the same can apply the other way around.

 

Totally true. IRL, I've seen far more entitlement from women than men.

 

No, I don't have to chase you to prove that I like you. No, I don't have to buy you drinks or food. No, I don't have to drop everything just because you finally decided that we should date on your terms.

 

No means no, ladies.

[clia]

But once you open your mouth and state that your level of attraction is essentially proportionate to the amount of money I spend on you, I'll bolt.

 

I would never say this outright on a first date.

 

But if you invited me out for drinks or dinner and then asked me to go halfsies, then you would not get a second date.

 

And it isn't about the amount you spent; it's the fact that you asked me out on what is presumably a romantic date, took me somewhere that cost money, and then expected me to pay my own way. Not romantic. It could be a $2 cup of coffee and I would still feel really odd about it.

[calvincline47]

I would never say this outright on a first date.

 

But if you invited me out for drinks or dinner and then asked me to go halfsies, then you would not get a second date.

 

And it isn't about the amount you spent; it's the fact that you asked me out on what is presumably a romantic date, took me somewhere that cost money, and then expected me to pay my own way. Not romantic. It could be a $2 cup of coffee and I would still feel really odd about it.

 

Why do you think you're entitled to dinner if you willingly go out with a man?

[clia]

I know this sounds harsh but men owe women nothing. We always hear that women owe men nothing and the same can apply the other way around.

 

I agree that men owe women nothing. But I tend to think that men who are romantically interested in women ask them out on dates and want to do the chivalrous thing and pay for the date that they initiated! I mean? Really?My experience in dating over 20+ years has frankly supported that. It's been rare that I've had a guy even ask me to go dutch. As I stated in a previous post, I did offer to pay my half on a first date if I knew I didn't want to see the guy again, but other than that, most guys just paid the bill. Were they really all so bitter about it?

[jen1447]

And it isn't about the amount you spent; it's the fact that you asked me out on what is presumably a romantic date, took me somewhere that cost money, and then expected me to pay my own way. Not romantic. It could be a $2 cup of coffee and I would still feel really odd about it.

 

I'd actually feel embarrassed for a guy if he did that. He might actually get a pity second date of it now that I think of it. Good strategy!

[toolforgrowth]

You're on to something here. I'm not sure if a father figure can fix this, cause he'll most likely tell his kid to "be a man and pay" lol IDK, I'm really sure about your conclusion, but men are definitely the problem. I mean the problem under the problem as in we've created these problems we're speaking about.

 

We compete with each other and throw each other under the bus. Overly aggressive men trying to bag every girl they can, even some they're not attracted to have created this attitude women have. Like the example of women using men for validation. Well aren't the men the ones trying so hard to impress her? Or women with bad attitudes, how to do you think they got that or became so vain? So many dudes hollering at them felt to right, wanting to take them out, ect.

 

There's no unity. If we all got together and said, stop hitting on them, kissing their asses, approaching them in public and wanting to hook up with them solely because they're attractive. The game would turn around, but that ain't gon happen. lol

 

Men totally compete with each other. Numerous studies have shown that, when presented with a choice, men have no "like group attachment", meaning they won't side with other men simply because they're other men. Women, on the other hand, have a very large "like group attachment", meaning they'll side with other women simply because they're women. This is not a criticism of either gender, simply an observation.

 

And yes, men devote an entirely disproportionate amount of their time and resources trying to impress and woo the opposite sex. The numbers are staggering.

 

And you're right, some women are very vain and have an inflated sense of self. My xWW basically believed that she was the only woman in the world who would ever show me attention. When she left and began her affair, I started dating a sort of old flame (long story). And boy did she hate it when she found out.

 

She suddenly realized that she wasn't the only woman in the world anymore, and that I had options. And so did I.

 

But men will indeed throw other men under the bus for a piece of poontang. There's no sense of "identity unity", and they highly overestimate the value of the average female. No female is worth $1000 in drinks and food every couple of months. Ten females aren't even worth that.

 

Twenty....maybe.

[clia]

Why do you think you're entitled to dinner if you willingly go out with a man?

 

Because he invited me to have dinner with him, usually at a restaurant he chose?

[toolforgrowth]

I would never say this outright on a first date.

 

But if you invited me out for drinks or dinner and then asked me to go halfsies, then you would not get a second date.

 

And it isn't about the amount you spent; it's the fact that you asked me out on what is presumably a romantic date, took me somewhere that cost money, and then expected me to pay my own way. Not romantic. It could be a $2 cup of coffee and I would still feel really odd about it.

 

Okay. I'm not going to say this particular viewpoint is wrong. We're all entitled to have our "things" that determine what we find attractive about the opposite sex.

 

We just have different boundaries. To each their own.

[clia]

I'd actually feel embarrassed for a guy if he did that. He might actually get a pity second date of it now that I think of it. Good strategy!

 

OMG, no pity second date. He can't even buy you a cup of coffee during the stage of dating when he should be on his best behavior? It's not getting any better than that...