And here I am....

[dreamingoftigers]

Dot,

 

Yours is an interesting and reasonable take in this situation. But the wife to have gone some time now without wearing her wedding rings with no explanation?

 

In a marriage where rings were exchanged, I would not be able to ignore my spouse simply disappearing the symbol of our commitment. That doesn't make sense. Also such does not so neatly fit the construct you drew.

 

OP has done the opposite of shut down, he is angry, and should be. He has been wondering for weeks, and he got his answer when he pressed her. Once "We need to split" is on the table," it is downhill. That is the same thing ad the D word in my book.

 

I am not going to promote false hope in this case. I think OP needs to go dark on her. Maybe she will suddenly turn up the gas, and find her rings. He has to do something different, in my opinion. Yas

 

Yes yes. There is typically one pursuer and one runner (withdrawer).

 

BUT, I also notice that the dynamic will flip-flop depending on who is doing the push-pull.

 

Not wearing rings: Yes, it is a big deal. Of course it is.

 

However:If my spidey sense is correct (and I have been to this rodeo enough to have a special box seat where I can get pulled-pork nachos) it is just another hill in the war.

 

And they are really killing (or have killed) this thing. It's a power-struggle because they are both hurting and no one wants to empathize and listen.

 

Allow me to explain. Let's just say that spouse A gets mad because, oh, I don't know, spouse B won't put their garbage in the can.

 

Spouse A does the "Please put your garbage in the can, I shouldn't have to clean up after you blar de blar."

 

Spouse B does it, erm, 75% of the time instead of the usual 25% of the time.

 

Spouse A still sees it going on 25% of the time (oh, I am fuming just typing this). So Spouse A is frustrated and reminds Spouse B.

 

B thinks, "dammit I do it 3 times more than I did before" Oh hells, spouse B thinks "I do it 95% of the time now, why can't A cut me some slack."

 

Meanwhile A thinks, "come on, you are 37 years old, put your garbage in the can" and any time it gets missed, it strikes that annoyance nerve.

 

A thinks "B doesn't care about what I want/need"

B thinks "A is a tight-ass, I try I do my best, wtf A?"

 

And really, we are talking about a scrap of paper twice a week.

Once those ideas get ingrained, they roll. People who aren't great at managing conflict or have a list of "shoulds" about their partner tend to lose big.

 

A eventually gets fed up with the partner that doesn't consider them. Maybe A stops cuddling at night.

 

B may or may not notice right away and thinks, "oh Hells, now A is not only being super-controlling but going cold on me too."

 

So B, instead of addressing A, stops packing bag lunch as regularly for A.

 

Maybe they even blow out from time to time.

 

"It's the damn garbage."

"It's the damn controlling"

"No, it's you being childish. Throw your stuff out."

"Childish? You're the one pouting over a couple scraps of paper!"

"Scraps of paper that you can't seem to put in the damn can right beside you. How hard is that?"

"I can't talk to you."

"Likewise."

 

One of them starts trying to "fix" the other one wants to not be bombarded and starts to withdraw. Soon "Garbage" becomes sex, money, affection and parenting. Then it becomes a game of "I want a divorce" "then go get one" "seems like you don't care if I do" "you are the one that wants the divorce."

 

Oh it can go on and on. Oh yes, it can really drag out.

 

It can be hateful, wounding, catty and etc.

 

And guess what? In a marriage, you are either both winning or both losing. Handling conflict like this is mutually-assured destruction.

 

Happy or Right?

 

Unfortunately I am right a lot.

 

And even though my husband is such a withdrawer that he can go days and weeks without even being present at this point. When it gets far enough along, he has turned up the heat full-blast.

 

The problem is, the pursuer often expects to see great functional change in the relationship.

 

It is a VEEERRRRYYYY slow process. I mean months instead of weeks.

 

It is damn hard to be that patient and I have only been able to pull it off once. That was three years ago.

 

It takes a lot of self-care and determination.

 

Let's just say that wife is cheating. (Ugh, I hope she didn't napalm the village with that). The affair would still be a symptom of the way that she handles conflict.

 

NOT EXCUSABLE OR REASONABLE OR OKAY.

 

Just that she wouldn't be doing it due to an external factor like "the OM has a nice car" or whatever. It would be a symptom of that sense of withdrawal. Ever notice lots of cheaters seem to have massive issues with assertiveness?

Often they are totally conflict-avoidant.

 

I don't pick up on that in this case. I actually see the typical "wife trying to talk to husband" and him being critical about what and how she is saying it. "We already talked about that, you are going in circles."

 

Woman, to many a man's irritation, often speak when they have a feeling and while they are speaking that feeling articulates itself into a cause and reaction. Most human brains aren't so linear as to know exactly what the process is for arriving at their conclusions. Our brains just often know that they want "something" and when we talk about it, often we are able to hear ourselves and our partner is best to support this reflection in conversation. Then, you can find out what your wife is actually trying to figure out to say to you.

 

Because to you OP it sounds like "circles." That tells me that she has been trying to be heard about one of two specific things that she is not feeling heard about and you are telling her "I ALREADY HEARD YOU STOP TALKING" in probably different words.

 

You want the conversation to go well, ask her questions about it. Not BS defensive ones. Ask her how she is feeling about stuff. "Oh, did that bother you?" "What do you think could have made it better?" "Is there anything else I might have missed?"

 

Not because it's "your fault" or "you're responsible" or "why should you" or whatever. But because there's been so much wounding here. As in most wars and you are the spouse that is here on Loveshack ready to pack it in.

 

Don't force your wife into talking. But when she does come to you to talk, it will sound negative with the state that your relationship is in. It will hurt. It will piss you off. But if you can look past that, you can see that she is coming to you to connect through conversation. Even if that connection is "I am so mad right now."

 

That's still a good thing.

 

You know, Pick Up Artists have it right on one thing, even if you piss her off, you want that reaction. It is better to get a reaction than nothing.

It is when your wife STOPS talking in circles (i.e. my marriage) that the real damage is done.

 

It means that she has lost total faith that you will ever listen to her or get what she is trying to say but hasn't figured out yet.

 

It may sound like total BS to you. Heck, she may even rewrite history. Do not argue the points of someone else's perception. It will get you nowhere. Empathize with their helpless victim or frustrated, put-upon exhaustion. But the end of it, you will either crack and explode from frustration, or she will feel like rethinking her stance on splitting. Which doesn't sound like a strong stance anyway.

 

Because it was just a tactic in The War to Be Heard.

[dreamingoftigers]

Oh gosh, you guys have it as bad as we do. I feel for you.

 

Yup. I know she's been gas-lighting me for a while now. It's just that the problems we had, they were fixable. I KNOW she doesn't want to fix things because the work would be too hard.

The day I had my final "hail mary" talk with her, I broke down sobbing while making dinner. I hadn't told her at this point that I wanted to talk to her after the boys went to bed. She was standing there and I turned around so the kids wouldn't see me and so she wouldn't either even though she knew I was losing it. Her response was, and I quote, "I don't know what you want me to do". She has no empathy. I mean think about it. Think about the Boston Marathon bombing. People who didn't even know each other helping them in a time of need. Even if it was just something like talking someone down from anxiety while looking for EMT's. We've spent 16 years together total and she couldn't even just put her hand on my shoulder or just give me a hug?

 

Anyway, I told her I had to go upstairs because I didn't want the kids to see me like this. While I calmed myself down, I talked myself out of having the talk with her and leaving it as it was.

 

I walked downstairs and you know what happened? One of those awesome little boys came over, hugged my leg and yelled "daddy!!!! I love you daddy!". I'm tearing up just thinking about it again but when it happened all I could think was, I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't try this last thing.

 

We had our talk, she agreed that she would look at it as a separation and work on us in therapy etc. Last night, she totally reneged. Said she just didn't want to be married anymore but didn't know how to tell me when we had our last talk. I've never wanted to hit someone more than I did in that instant. Don't worry, I never would, I have too much to lose. She started talking about how we'll be able to be friends and go to functions for the boys. What I told her is that, yes, we will be involved in their lives, but as far as she's concerned to me, she doesn't exist. I will be cordial in front of the kids and never say anything bad about her to them/in front of them but I told her that she's basically dead to me now. We can look at the process of splitting as a business transaction and once we're done, we're done.

 

So. It's my night in the living room. I'm sitting here with a glass of Bourbon and I can now see, for the first time in a VERY long time that things really will get better. I have two totally awesome boys that are my world and I'm seeing that the relationship I have with them is totally different from what they have with her. Mainly because of the lack of empathy on her part. I'm the one they want to sit next to at meals, I'm the one they want to say goodnight to last.

 

It's going to suck, and it's going to suck really hard, but I know that being away from her will make my relationship with my boys even better. Even if that means I don't get to see them every day.

 

Do you see the bolded bits in the model from earlier?

 

It's the same argument on steroids.

 

I'm really sorry.

[dreamingoftigers]

Much props to DOT, she's as caring and empathetic as any poster you'll find here. But if I recall correctly, her H has split - proof that even the most engaging spouse can't singlehandedly fix a marraige. It takes two.

 

The OP's W has refused to engage or participate in any way and has declared herself "done". Short of chloroform, what would you suggest he do? I don't think people here are pushing for him to bail on his marriage. What's being suggested is he be realistic about what going on and protect himself and his relationship with his kids. As always, YMMV...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

See, that's the thing.

 

Please don't think I am saying "oh Hawkeye, you must save your whole marriage and etc etc etc."

 

There is clearly a lot of damage here to the point where he is shutting down.

 

But the thing that gets me is that even though she's talking endgame - - - she is still talking. In fact, it's all talk except for the rings coming off.

 

I would bet my fat arse (in fact, you can just take it) that she wants to be heard and she is using the dissolution of the relationship to do it or at least confirm that he will not hear her even if it means the relationship will dissolve.

 

I went and physically purchased divorce papers one time I plunked them down in front of him. He filled them out. I cried. That was four years ago. Neither one of us was at that point yet. It wasn't manipulation per se. I believed in it when I bought them. But I also thought he would actually try to stop it even a little. He took me at my word.

 

But we didn't end up filing.

 

Unfortunately I didn't respect his triggers either.

 

He was back for a week last week. Things were going very well, I hit his trigger and he's off again.

 

Granted, I know that my requests are reasonable and that he has tons of issues that simply...... just don't compare. They just don't.

 

But the point is, I hit the one button that I have known causes shut-down. And he shut-down and left. It wasn't "intentional" I was struggling myself frankly.

 

After that I blew up his phone and totally freaked out I was so pissed off.

 

But we've also been separated seven weeks. There's a much more to the context of our story though. Like, about 9000 posts worth.

 

In fact, every single category in the marriage at this point has been violated by deal-breakers including addiction, adultery and abuse. It's pretty well a no-win.

 

But still, we could muster a good week together when we both smarten the eff up.

 

But it's also not entirely on you OP.

 

But you can still do your part if you want to.

[dreamingoftigers]

Yeah you don't know the dynamic of what's been going on and I don't feel like going into details. All I'll say is the 'tude I'm exhibiting towards her stems from her refusal to talk about issues. She just holds everything in. It's not just our relationship that's a problem for her. She's having problems at work too.

 

I got one like that too. Refuses to talk about things.

 

Won't problem-solve.

 

Says it's "just making him feel bad."

 

Arg. Frustrating.

[dreamingoftigers]

I get this gist of your post. Really I do. I want nothing more than to make this work. My frustrations and lashing out at her come from her absolute refusal to talk and put in any effort to save things. So tell me, how do I fix this if she doesn't want to? That's what this boils down to.

 

 

Stop trying to fix it. She resents you trying to fix it and she only thinks you are trying to be right or win or shut her up or whatever the heck context she's assigned to your emotionality or dedication.

 

Only listen to her if she talks to you about anything from the weather to that thing you forgot to do in 2003.

 

Your frustrations are legitimate. They are.

 

But the lash-out brings you no closer to your goal or either self-care and moving on OR reconciliation.

 

Think: 1. Behaviour 2. Goal.

 

I am a very emotionally connected creature as well. My husband shuts down when I get emotional. He can't handle it at all if it's unexpected.

[Esraem]

She flat out told me that all her friends are telling her that she's making a huge mistake. Mine, on the other hand, are trying to tell me that I'll be better off. I know I will, it's just hard to think that when you know you won't be able to see your kids everyday.

 

This sounds very much like my situation here.

[dreamingoftigers]

If she really doesn't want to, then you can't. But, is your assessment correct? You said

 

Your conclusion is that she has no empathy. That she was content to stand there and watch you be miserable, but look at what she said: Taken at face value, she wanted to help but did not know how. That's not a lack of empathy, it's a lack of how to take the next step. A lack of empathy would be for her to turn away and ignore you. I know from experience that when emotions run high, people freeze up. Perhaps she thought if she put her arm on your shoulder that you would push it off and tell her to GTFO. Perhaps her meek response was couched in anxiety itself.

 

Totally, I was going to draw on that earlier. But I already drowned out a page of this thread. It's tough work being in the bottom of the pit.

 

I simply don't have the fortitude to try to work through my own marriage again. I was "all in" for years and I am just drained. I haven't thrown in the towel completely, but I am not focusing on it at all. I have a long road ahead of me healing from all of this. I just, need a break from it all at the very least. I'm exhausted. But I do know how it can bounce back up if you aren't too exhausted by it all and can carry it and yourself for a bit.

 

OR you can carry yourself out and focus on self-love and not accept any kind of BS from her period. It's all about where you want to go and what you want to do with it. And how you want to read the situation.

 

Look, I don't have anything invested in you two and if you both want to burn your relationship to the ground, be my guest. I can't talk to her nor hear her side, but every time I read your posts about this, I get the same feeling, and it's the same feeling dreamingoftigers gets: there's a huge amount of "poor me"'s and "look how wronged I have been"'s, and little cooperation. There's only one end to this as it's going and if that's what you want, then keep going that way. Take the advice of those here who want to see your relationship fail. Better yet, push it to its end.

 

Someone said you should keep doing what you're doing, maybe it was you, I don't remember. If you keep doing what you're doing, what has been happening will keep happening. If you don't want that, then do something different. Listen to DOT, she has just lived this and she knows what she's talking about. Otherwise, just go on venting here but don't disguise it as looking for advice, say you're venting and vent! Best of luck to you!

 

Ken

 

It's a tough go either way and I don't see this as being 50-50 between the OP and his wife. I do see that she is doing the cord-pull and that isn't fair. It really isn't

 

 

So OP, if it all goes bust, that doesn't mean it was all on you.

And we all know it is damn hard in the pit. Very few of us shine down there.

 

Very very few of us get this far in a relationship and look great and act perfectly healthy.

 

Relationships trigger so many primal instincts it is so draining and very painful.

 

But OP, you are not powerless and whatever you choose to do will have effects. That doesn't mean that you have all of the power to change things either though.

 

Best of luck either way.

[hawkeye_pierce]

Stop trying to fix it. She resents you trying to fix it and she only thinks you are trying to be right or win or shut her up or whatever the heck context she's assigned to your emotionality or dedication.

 

Only listen to her if she talks to you about anything from the weather to that thing you forgot to do in 2003.

 

Your frustrations are legitimate. They are.

 

But the lash-out brings you no closer to your goal or either self-care and moving on OR reconciliation.

 

Think: 1. Behaviour 2. Goal.

 

I am a very emotionally connected creature as well. My husband shuts down when I get emotional. He can't handle it at all if it's unexpected.

 

I've appreciated all your responses. I won't reply to all of them but there's one thing I'd like to hit on. The rings. They are very symbolic to me. To her, since she wasn't "feeling a connection" to me anymore, she decided she didn't want to wear them. She went on multiple trips out of town, all without the rings. Our therapist told her to put herself in my shoes and try to understand why I would think that she's cheating.

 

Even after that, I told her fine. I'll drop the ring argument. Won't even mention it and I stuck to my word. Then, almost a week later, after treating me like **** the whole time, she said that she's done because I accused her of cheating. That I should know her better than that after 16 years. My response was that we really don't know each other that well anymore but that the woman I dated and asked to marry me, that woman NEVER would have taken her rings off. She couldn't even come up with a response.

[Yasuandio]

Dot put a lot of effort here, and I'll respond to her conclusion:

 

"THINK"

 

1. Behaviour: Wife removed wedding rings for weeks. Wife was out of town while not wearing wedding rings.

 

2. Wife's Goal: Wife's goal was to not wear wedding rings.

 

3. OP's Goal: Would wish wife to wear wedding rings.

 

4. Therapist's Perspective on Goal: Try to get Wife to put herself in OP's shoes (how it may appear she might be cheating).

 

MC Outcome:

 

5. Gaslighting: The MC spotlight is focused on massaging Wife's self-righteousness for the direct inquiry regarding infidelity she encountered from husband for the most obvious reasons.

 

I'm not a proponent for "Working" at a marriage, especially in MC, per this example. If a marriage requires "Work," there is something seriously wrong.

 

I prefer the "Want" a marriage paradigm - I believe there is a much better chance of a marriage succeeding if both people "Want" the marriage - plain and simple. If one person doesn't "Want" the marriage, and their "Actions" demonstrate same, then they can leave.

 

After some prodding, Wife has finally stated what her "Actions" have been stating all along, "She wants to split." That kind of statement, in light of her "Actions," (and the length, lifestyle, and children) must be taken dead serious, period.

 

Now -- that her desire is clear, she needs to leave the marital home. Find away to afford it. You can get a job and help on the household expenses. It is just not worth it to have her in your face - this is the option I suggest, just my opinion. Give her what she asked for, help her pack. (See Homer McDonald 3-sentence method in Critical Readings).

 

To see your man break down in tears, and his his face from his children -- and only have to offer the remark: "I don't know what you want me to do," is cold, ICE COLD. She has disengaged, all signs are there. Don't go there again. You got your answer. Keep your dignity.

 

OP, dependent on her salary as a SAHD with two boys cannot play around with this situation, when the writing is on the wall - no matter how much hope wishful LSer's can conjure. There is too much at stake.

 

I would recommend looking at Michelle Wiener Davis' work on DivorceBusting, and apply some of her techniques, not unlike what you're already doing - minus the foul mouth (per Kenmore). Please check the "Critical Readings for Separation and Divorce" Pinned Thread at the top of our section (and in my signature line). I would immediately apply the 180, "Going Dark, and I would also try "Doing Nothing," and "Doing Something Different," as well as looking into the "Last Resort" techniques. These ideas can help keep you sane, and give you time to completely process this thing before going full NC or LC, if it comes to that.

 

My source for "Not Working" at marriage is Mort Fertel, Founder of the Marriage Fitness System. It is an interesting philosophy.

 

OK. Yas

[Mr. Lucky]

I would recommend looking at Michelle Wiener Davis' work on DivorceBusting, and apply some of her techniques, not unlike what you're already doing - minus the foul mouth (per Kenmore). Please check the "Critical Readings for Separation and Divorce" Pinned Thread at the top of our section (and in my signature line). I would immediately apply the 180, "Going Dark, and I would also try "Doing Nothing," and "Doing Something Different," as well as looking into the "Last Resort" techniques. These ideas can help keep you sane, and give you time to completely process this thing before going full NC or LC, if it comes to that.

 

My source for "Not Working" at marriage is Mort Fertel, Founder of the Marriage Fitness System. It is an interesting philosophy.

 

OK. Yas

 

OP, great dual-purpose advice. It both gives you the "Hail Mary" shot at saving your relationship AND helps prepare you for life after separation should that happen. Added bonus, you get to maintain your dignity and some peace-of-mind while doing so.

 

Been said so many times it's become a cliche - you're only in charge of you. One of life's hardest lessons is, not matter how hard we squeeze our eyes shut and wish upon a star, we can't want for someone else. They have to want it for themselves ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[hawkeye_pierce]

To see your man break down in tears, and his his face from his children -- and only have to offer the remark: "I don't know what you want me to do," is cold, ICE COLD. She has disengaged, all signs are there. Don't go there again. You got your answer. Keep your dignity.

 

OP, dependent on her salary as a SAHD with two boys cannot play around with this situation, when the writing is on the wall - no matter how much hope wishful LSer's can conjure. There is too much at stake.

I would recommend looking at Michelle Wiener Davis' work on DivorceBusting, and apply some of her techniques, not unlike what you're already doing - minus the foul mouth (per Kenmore). Please check the "Critical Readings for Separation and Divorce" Pinned Thread at the top of our section (and in my signature line). I would immediately apply the 180, "Going Dark, and I would also try "Doing Nothing," and "Doing Something Different," as well as looking into the "Last Resort" techniques. These ideas can help keep you sane, and give you time to completely process this thing before going full NC or LC, if it comes to that.

 

My source for "Not Working" at marriage is Mort Fertel, Founder of the Marriage Fitness System. It is an interesting philosophy.

 

OK. Yas

 

I've already got some prospects lined up. One of which could be really good for me and the boys. It would allow full time hours, work from home and isn't a 9-5 type thing. That would put me in an AWESOME position custody wise.

 

And I totally agree that her response to me crying was ice cold. Last night she said that she had "forgotten" that we had a counseling session today and was wondering if I was still going. I told her I was. She asked me if I wanted her to go and I asked her if it would do her any good. She said no, so I said "then there's your answer".

 

I went. It's now just therapy for me. To help me get past the anger and hatred I have. I've turned into someone that I'm not proud of and I know I need to keep going so I can be the best dad I can be to my boys. Funny thing was that she told me that she's going to her individual counseling this afternoon after work. I was floored. Really don't even know what to think about that.

 

I will say one last thing for now. A lot of the divorce busting techniques linked I had already started doing. I will keep doing them too. They're helping me and, besides my boys, that's all I really care about right now.

[Yasuandio]

Say nothing about the job prospect to her. [bTW, Bravo on that].

 

In fact say ZERO to her about anything.

 

Your next mission, is to quietly gather evidence BEFORE you are formally separated. Get on-online, and pull every detailed data record as far back as possible with your cell phone carrier. This is no easy task. Look for patterns. Check credit cards and bank statements - go back at least a year.

 

You need to know what she is doing in violation of her vows to suddenly want to walk away from the marriage, to help your primary custody argument. Should she be carrying out infidelity, (which is highly likely), that type conduct is not most honorable moral condition for raising children -- at least, I would try to use it. Find out whas' up. It's there.

 

But while you conduct research, you must act like a complete, sad dummy.

 

There are many ways to skin a cat. Start thinking about this next step. When you're ready, there are some of us that can give you some good tips.

 

I'm sorry to bring your attention to this matter, however, it is a MATTER of survival now.

 

Yas

[hawkeye_pierce]

Yas,

 

I've been looking through bank records, credit card records, phone records, literally EVERYTHING I can think of. Can't find one single things that would point/prove to cheating. Let's put it this way, I've looked so hard and for so long that I just won't do it anymore. It's maddening. I'm not a doctor so I can't make a professional diagnosis, but she has VERY narcissistic tendencies. Does she have NPD? No idea. I just know that I'm done trying if she won't put any effort forth.

 

Should be interesting to see how she is after dinner tonight. She has her individual counseling session right now and is bringing dinner home. After that, it's time to read to the boys and get them ready for bed. I'm curious if she's going to want to "talk" after the boys go to bed. That's what she usually wants to do. What she doesn't realize is that I have other plans. I'm going to the store to get some things I need, medicine for the boys, then will go back to my room and not say a word to her. It's her night to be in the living room so there's no reason for me to be in here after the boys go to bed.

[Yasuandio]

Here is a decent explanation of alternative methods you might find enlightening.

 

https://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/506182-snooping-your-ws-s-computer-phone

 

"Gorilla Theatre" once cited a really good LS thread about VAR's used for your own personal knowledge [only]. I just cannot find it right now.

 

Yas

Edited April 20, 2015 by Yasuandio

[hawkeye_pierce]

Yeah, I've thought about the VAR's and I think I'm going to get a couple.

 

Edit -

 

Dinner was cordial. Boys loved it, we all talked and laughed, I had my game face on. After the boys went to bed and we said goodnight, I didn't even give her the chance to say anything to me. I'm in our guest bedroom now and just glad I don't have to listen to anything she says.

Edited April 21, 2015 by hawkeye_pierce

[kenmore]

Many thoughtful and TRUE posts here. Lots of advice. Yas, come on, I have not gotten anywhere as foul mouthed as I usually get!

 

Hawkeye, you took the posts given to you as you wanted to see them, I noticed that very plainly. You liked the ones that suited your feelings and countered those that did not. Not that I blame you, it is difficult, we are all strangers and nobody knows your situation. Nobody can know how your wife sounds when she speaks, how you sound, all of the things that may be poignant but not mentioned etc. You are speaking from your perspective and while I'm sure from your perspective everything you say is correct and to the point, I'd be willing to bet that if we heard your wife's side, the story would have a very different feel.

 

DOT made perfect sense! So did Yas! Yet they are opposite. What does that tell you? It should tell you that there are two answers depending on how your heart is really feeling. You can't go two ways at once and if you tried, you would look like (and be) a fool. You have to choose.

 

Okay, the ring thing is bad. So is the not going to MC thing. I can't speak for the ring thing and until I know why, it is simply a bad sign, but I'll say that during my first marriage of 17 years (until she died), I lost my ring while working on her car. I told her about it and it did not bother her. I did not have a ring from then on (our rings were expensive and we did not feel it was worth the money to invest in a new one since it is just a symbol, we knew our vows were what mattered.) Now I'm not suggesting you shouldn't care, if you care, then by all means it's f*cking damned (Yas) important! What about that though? Might she have lost it? Maybe she doesn't feel comfortable telling you that? Maybe you need to go ring shopping.

 

The not going to MC is just nothing more than further pushing. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but in the case of an escalating breakup, the reaction is always larger. Which leads to an even larger re-reaction. You know this, you're not dumb. She's pushing you and most likely your re-re-re-reaction will be to push her back harder. Try being the man (and yes, that usually means swallowing some pride) and pushing back less to her harder thrusts. Treat her gently. Let her want to push you less.

 

The bad feelings and escalation took years to evolve, and they will take years to devolve. It will be a slow agonizing process and honestly, you both need to want it or it's doomed. There was some discrepancy about her response of "I don't know what you want me to do". What? How can that sentence be misunderstood? How is that cold? How is it lacking empathy? She didn't know what you want her to do!!!!!!!!!! Do you need a brick house to fall on you? The answer is so simple, it's the cause of all of your problems on both sides and to not see it is true blindness: YOU TWO ARE NOT COMMUNICATING! First thing to address: communicate!

 

Not to harp, but case in point: DOT gave you like a whole page of responses. Granted, no mere human can keep up with her, but your reply to it all was two short paragraphs. If this is how you and your wife reply to things, then I know your problem. Nobody expects you to post a whole page of responses. Different people have different time allotments, but really?

 

There it is. Your problem in a nutshell. No, Mr Lucky, no chloroform necessary. Maybe talking can put people to sleep just as fast, but if (and again Hawkeye, I say if you really feel like working for this despite Yas's disapproval of that idea) you want this to work, then like DOT says and I say, start listening. Don't try to control her, you can't, but most people will respond in kind and it will take time. Don't expect her to suddenly start hearing you just because you suddenly start hearing her, but what will happen suddenly on her part is she'll suddenly wonder what the F you're up to, and it will make her think! That's gold!

 

Ken

[hawkeye_pierce]

Lots of words

 

Ken

 

I really appreciate all the advice given but I wanted to hit on one point about the rings. I know where they are. They're in her bathroom with the rest of the jewelry that she doesn't wear. It's not the she lost them, she's made a conscience decision not to wear them.

 

I also don't think that I ever said that I wasn't to blame for some of our problems. I've definitely had my issues along the way but got them addressed. They were mainly all health issues that caused problems in the bedroom.

 

I may not agree with everything you say, nor you me, but I do appreciate all the different perspectives. I found this site fairly late in the game and there's just so much that I could go into detail about, I know that at this point, it won't do any good.

 

I've been great with the boys, cordial to her when she gets home from work and we're all together but she has made it clear that she wants to split and that's that. There's nothing I can do to change that. So, you know what? I'm going to do what I think is best for me at this point and keep doing what I'm doing. There's no contact between us during the day. We don't spend time together at night after the boys go to bed and I'm keeping it that way. Why? Because it's helping me move on.

 

I will say one thing about her actions last night though. I really think she's starting to realize (or at least it's really hitting her) what she's going to lose. She came upstairs to tell me that she was going to her bedroom and that if I wanted to come down and watch the news that I could. I told her that I that I was just fine hanging out up there and that I'd appreciate it if she wants to ask/tell me something at night, I'd appreciate her respecting my boundaries and just texting or emailing me. She said she would. I'm not doing this to "win her back", I'm doing this to show her that I am moving on and was serious about us not having any kind of relationship/communictaion (outside of the boys) if she chose to end things.

 

I know there's nothing I can do to save things. It has to come from her. She has to want it and she doesn't. The longer this goes on where we're separated from each other at night, I realize I will be much happier when this is over and that will translate into a better relationship with my boys.

[Yasuandio]

Kenmore, Dot, and Mr. Hawk-eye -- please excuse my direct style, I certainly didn't mean to come of as "disapproving." I have also been an LSer for several years, and I just call it as I see it. Noth'in personal.

 

That said, Hawk-Eye, sometimes people misplace their digital VAR under the car seat (securely with Industrial Velcro).

 

Yas

[dreamingoftigers]

 

Not to harp, but case in point: DOT gave you like a whole page of responses. Granted, no mere human can keep up with her, but your reply to it all was two short paragraphs. If this is how you and your wife reply to things, then I know your problem. Nobody expects you to post a whole page of responses. Different people have different time allotments, but really?

 

There it is. Your problem in a nutshell. No, Mr Lucky, no chloroform necessary. Maybe talking can put people to sleep just as fast, but if (and again Hawkeye, I say if you really feel like working for this despite Yas's disapproval of that idea) you want this to work, then like DOT says and I say, start listening. Don't try to control her, you can't, but most people will respond in kind and it will take time. Don't expect her to suddenly start hearing you just because you suddenly start hearing her, but what will happen suddenly on her part is she'll suddenly wonder what the F you're up to, and it will make her think! That's gold!

 

Ken

 

:lmao:Thanks Ken.

 

6 months pure 180, that's my best guess.

 

If she wants to talk, respond to her goddamnit.

 

The number one reason women leave is stonewalling.

The number one for men is shame.

 

She's shaming you and you are stonewalling her.

 

Guess what's next?

 

One of you stops doing your old standby and something will shift. Or just keep doing the same thing, whatever....

 

Frig, it works with my husband every time and we have ISSUES.

I just can't deal with the issues beyond the 180 anymore, and neither can he. We're both hurting units and that's all there is to it at this point.

 

This IS one of those marriages where it is conflict-patterns in and out. Which means: change the way you handle conflict.

 

You see, in my marriage I can change the way I handle conflict with him, but he still has alcohol, commitment, shame issues and I am almost certain the traits of the same mental illness I was afflicted with in youth. Talking does very little. No one could have talked to me about things. And I have a mood disorder and I have not yet learned enough about how to positively communicate in the moment.

 

Listen less to what she is saying and watch what she is doing in regards to approaching you.

 

She is STILL TALKING.

And you are SHUTTING IT DOWN and getting very emotional about that. You don't want to hear what she has to say/feels or validate any of that, yet you have the expectation that "your wife should give you a hug etc."

 

In general, yes, a wife should give a husband a hug.

 

But should a wife who tried to talk, was told "she's only talking in circles" and has her husband pull his rings off too, really expect a hug?

 

She doesn't know what the Hell to do, and neither would I.

 

Would I approach the guy that gave me the conversational middle finger?

Well, knowing me, I might. Or I might skewer the guy. Or I might freeze up not knowing what the Hell he expects.

 

What is your goal? Then we can tell you what to do.

[hawkeye_pierce]

What is your goal? Then we can tell you what to do.

 

My goal is to be happy. I'd like that to be with her but I just don't see how that's going to happen. Some of you keep saying "she's still talking". SHE JUST GOT TO THE POINT WHERE SHE WOULD TALK TO ME. Literally only in the last 2 months would she talk to me, and that was because she FINALLY agreed to counseling after me asking for years. She started to learn how to have the difficult conversations but the only one she really WANTED to have was about divorcing.

 

I'm appreciative of a lot of the posts in this thread but I think I need to leave for a while. Most of you want to blame me for whatever our problems are and want to believe that I AM THE ONE NOT TRYING. Whatever. I've said I share responsibility for some of our problems, but damnit, not all of them.

[kenmore]

As I said Hawkeye, only you can know how it really is. My wife asked me to go to counseling and I said OK. I was very willing to do whatever made it work, and as soon as I said OK, she said well forget it! It never did happen. She shut down all serious communication, said over and over that we're done, and bless her, we are! We are because that was how she was going to make it and that's how it is.

 

After reading your posts today, I see you feel you're done too. I'm certainly not trying to blame you for everything nor even say you are mostly at fault (I agree, I don't think you are at all), it's just that the only one of you two here to talk to is you. I could point out all the things you are doing right and there are many, depending on how you are playing your cards, but how would that help you? It may help your self esteem, would most likely cause you to continue doing what you're doing (which doesn't seem to be working), but will it help you patch your marriage? That's really all I'm trying to help you do.

 

I think perhaps some of the emotion from how it went with my wife and I is spilling onto you and I do feel I owe you an apology for that. I got wrapped up in your case, and felt if i could help you two come out of what you are in, it would keep you from feeling what I'm feeling, but you are in a different emotional place than I was. I am projecting my feelings onto you. I'm sorry. That said, I still stand by my advice. It's just my pushing that was overdone.

 

Yes, you need to do as you see appropriate. If she was here to lay into, I'm sure I would have been more harsh on her, but she wisely isn't lol.

 

But even if you "leave for awhile", what has been read by you will be part of you now. You can't un-read it nor forget it. It will affect you and all I can say is I hope it helps you two. It seems to me still that both of you would like to see it work, and hopefully you two can make that happen. Only time will tell. Best of luck to you both! I hope you can find peace, or at least that happiness you want.

 

Ken

[kenmore]

:lmao:Thanks Ken.

 

You're so welcome DOT

[hawkeye_pierce]

I didn't know if I was going to come back to this thread or not. I had already made my decision because, as I stated earlier, I was the only one trying to fix things. All along, I thought she was cheating and/or wanted to cheat/looking for the next best thing.

 

I found that proof today. Not going to say how/what/who but I'm glad I found it because I don't feel crazy anymore and the timing couldn't have been more perfect. I have a consultation with a lawyer in the morning.

 

Funny think is, the dude she was trying to hit on shut her down fast.

[Mr. Lucky]

Not surprising. Hope this brings clarity to your present situation and the chance for long-term growth and peace of mind in your future.

 

In your current circumstances, knowledge is truly power...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Yasuandio]

Say nothing to her about zero. Act "as if" you are the dummy she takes you for, while you get all your ducks in a row with Attorney.

 

Where there is smoke, there is fire. Keep looking. Discuss appropriate means to gather evidence. File first - have you attorney explain the strategic advantage to such.

 

I hope you keep posting. We are here to help you. We comprehend what is going down.

 

For your consideration, Yas