"loving" two women

[norudder]

Posting an idea to see everyone's thoughts. ExMM claimed he loved both his wife and me. It didn't sit right with me and the first time he said that was the first time I tried ending A. I think people can be at different stages with different people ie caring attachment v infatuation and maybe this is what he meant but even that kind of polyamory should be open not deceptive. I think TRUE love consists of passion, intimacy (all types) and the big one- commitment. I don't think he truly loved either one of us. I think people who are content with that arrangement (no guilt, dissonance, etc) aka the cakeeaters so commonly discussed are narcissists who love only themselves.

[jen1447]

I love two women and one man, all very genuinely.

 

If the "love" you're talking about was centered around an affair tho, I'd be suspicious it was just an act to sell/justify it.

[goodyblue]

Narcissism gets thrown around here all the time. Way too much, in fact. A true narcissist is actually quite a rare.condition. I hardly think most people who engage in an affair are narcissists. Selfish, yes. But that is pretty much as far as it goes.

[Grapesofwrath]

No rudder: Thank you for posting this. I am anxious to read the responses. This was EXACTLY what my MM told me to explain why he was having an A. He said it, I believe, as a way to justify his actions. As if the love just happened to him, through no fault of his own, and what was he supposed to do other than pursue the "love?"

 

He said this early on in the A, so I don't think he knew me well enough to love me at that point. I think he loved the idea of me, and he loved the idea of love. I have struggled with how it's possible for someone to "love" his wife, and betray her so cruelly. I've decided that, if he does love her, it's not the kind of love that I would want my husband to have for me. And if he loves her, he surely doesn't respect her.

[xxoo]

Love the feeling or love the action?

 

He can feel love for both of you. He can feel care, concern, attraction, the rush of endorphins, all that for both of you.

 

What he can not do is love you both in the way either of you want to be loved: singularly.

 

So yes, his love is selfish. It is focused on him feeling love, and not on him providing love.

[norudder]

I love two women and one man, all very genuinely.

 

If the "love" you're talking about was centered around an affair tho, I'd be suspicious it was just an act to sell/justify it.

 

Hi

 

Your situation I'm assuming is something that doesn't involve betrayal amongst the parties acting on/expressing their feelings so the values are shared and include honesty, different from an A, yes. I know that kind of shared love exists and is what works for some relationships.

[norudder]

Narcissism gets thrown around here all the time. Way too much, in fact. A true narcissist is actually quite a rare.condition. I hardly think most people who engage in an affair are narcissists. Selfish, yes. But that is pretty much as far as it goes.

 

I wonder if it gets thrown around a lot because many are dealing with a prevalent personality type to be in these situations (cakeeater mm) to begin with? Most, not all. I should clarify I don't mean a diagnosed NPD, I know that's less likely. We all can be selfish and narcissistic, some are just further down the spectrum than others.

[Fleur de cactus]

"I don't think he truly loved either one of us"

 

Yes, you said it. He does not know what is love, it is all about himself or he think you do not have intelligence to see what a player he is. Soon he will add another person and he will tell you that the love for you never changed! how selfish!!

[Grapesofwrath]

So yes, his love is selfish. It is focused on him feeling love, and not on him providing love.

 

Thank you, XXOO. That sums it up, right there.

[norudder]

No rudder: Thank you for posting this. I am anxious to read the responses. This was EXACTLY what my MM told me to explain why he was having an A. He said it, I believe, as a way to justify his actions. As if the love just happened to him, through no fault of his own, and what was he supposed to do other than pursue the "love?"

 

He said this early on in the A, so I don't think he knew me well enough to love me at that point. I think he loved the idea of me, and he loved the idea of love. I have struggled with how it's possible for someone to "love" his wife, and betray her so cruelly. I've decided that, if he does love her, it's not the kind of love that I would want my husband to have for me. And if he loves her, he surely doesn't respect her.

 

Hi

I'm realizing more and more how this plays out so similarly so often. I came to the same conclusion as you.

What does 'love' mean to me v him and how is that displayed in our actions. His love was more about him and how i made him feel. I tell myself he meant it in the moment but not in an eduring way and exactly what you said if this is how he loves his wife in his mind, its not love i would want.

[Grapesofwrath]

Hi

 

What does 'love' mean to me v him and how is that displayed in our actions. His love was more about him and how i made him feel.

 

I've read that when people fall in love, they actually are falling in love with the way their lover makes them feel about themselves. So one falls in love with oneself, reflected in the eyes of the other. Maybe this holds particularly true for married people that pursue affairs. You love the way the AP makes you feel about yourself. The only problem there is that this requires completely ignoring the negative feelings one should have about oneself for lying, cheating, and deceiving.

 

I chew on that puzzle a lot

[mokamint7]

So yes, his love is selfish. It is focused on him feeling love, and not on him providing love.

 

Wow. This is deep. The part of him only getting the love and not providing the love on a level that the OW needs.

[norudder]

"I don't think he truly loved either one of us"

 

Yes, you said it. He does not know what is love, it is all about himself or he think you do not have intelligence to see what a player he is. Soon he will add another person and he will tell you that the love for you never changed! how selfish!!

 

When I talked about starting to date because he couldn't define plans he actually said I was smarter than he gave me credit for. I was so caught up in him I didn't see what an insult that was. I'm plenty insulted now.

[norudder]

I've read that when people fall in love, they actually are falling in love with the way their lover makes them feel about themselves. So one falls in love with oneself, reflected in the eyes of the other. Maybe this holds particularly true for married people that pursue affairs. You love the way the AP makes you feel about yourself. The only problem there is that this requires completely ignoring the negative feelings one should have about oneself for lying, cheating, and deceiving.

 

I chew on that puzzle a lot

 

Me too. How affairs are similar to the beginning of normal relationship infatuation but hit the wall when it comes time to grow the relationship past that first phase into mature reciprocal love. It means confronting those negatives.

[velvette]

I've read that when people fall in love, they actually are falling in love with the way their lover makes them feel about themselves. So one falls in love with oneself, reflected in the eyes of the other. Maybe this holds particularly true for married people that pursue affairs. You love the way the AP makes you feel about yourself. The only problem there is that this requires completely ignoring the negative feelings one should have about oneself for lying, cheating, and deceiving.

 

I chew on that puzzle a lot

 

Not really. I agree with your premise and have often said my H and OW looked into each others eyes and said, "We're f***ed up aren't we great!"

 

 

By agreeing to be in an A with MM, the OW is telling him what he is dong is ok. And, most of the time the OW who may not be technically cheating, but just helping him cheat is also lying/deceiving when it comes to family and friends in order to keep the R secret.

 

 

The validation he's getting from OW overrides whatever normal negative feelings he has about what he's doing.

[norudder]

Not really. I agree with your premise and have often said my H and OW looked into each others eyes and said, "We're f***ed up aren't we great!"

 

 

By agreeing to be in an A with MM, the OW is telling him what he is dong is ok. And, most of the time the OW who may not be technically cheating, but just helping him cheat is also lying/deceiving when it comes to family and friends in order to keep the R secret.

 

 

The validation he's getting from OW overrides whatever normal negative feelings he has about what he's doing.

 

I had an alcoholic analogy in mind myself for a while since I was married part of the time myself. I recommended nc and ic but he kept busting boundaries to hold onto status quo. It finally took when I changed jobs. I wanted to get better and he didn't. Disappointing to realize.

[velvette]

I had an alcoholic analogy in mind myself for a while since I was married part of the time myself. I recommended nc and ic but he kept busting boundaries to hold onto status quo. It finally took when I changed jobs. I wanted to get better and he didn't. Disappointing to realize.

 

Not sure what you are saying. Are you talking about your exH or your MM?

 

 

In any case, double standard though it may be, I think most men do not respect women who are cheating on their H even if they themselves are cheating.

 

 

They will have an affair with a MW because its convenient and seems safer since both have a lot to lose, but they are not usually rushing to get into a relationship themselves with a woman who they know cheated.

[DKT3]

I believe its possible to love two women at the same time, however how can you truly love someone when your not being honest with them. Whatever kind of loving relationship people have openly is great. Key being OPEN.

 

With that said, this MM isn't showing REAL love for either woman. Its all words, love is a verb.

[Doublegold]

Not sure what you are saying. Are you talking about your exH or your MM?

 

 

In any case, double standard though it may be, I think most men do not respect women who are cheating on their H even if they themselves are cheating.

 

 

They will have an affair with a MW because its convenient and seems safer since both have a lot to lose, but they are not usually rushing to get into a relationship themselves with a woman who they know cheated.

 

But that's OK when it's the BS to do that, right? Continue in a relationship with a known cheater, yes? Isn't that a 'double standard"? And following your line of thinking about a cheating Husbands "respect of women", that is not applicable to the BS then, correct? She was 'respected 'during his cheating according to your reasoning, no? I find that a double standard....This is the OM/OW Forum. Nothing is "safe" in affairs.... Clarify your reasoning.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Doublegold

[goodyblue]

Not sure what you are saying. Are you talking about your exH or your MM?

 

 

In any case, double standard though it may be, I think most men do not respect women who are cheating on their H even if they themselves are cheating.

 

 

They will have an affair with a MW because its convenient and seems safer since both have a lot to lose, but they are not usually rushing to get into a relationship themselves with a woman who they know cheated.

 

Well, I don't know about other relationships but in my situation the only way he was able to have an affair at all was that he had lost every ounce of respect for his wife. He has always had a tremendous amount of love and respect for me and i reciprocate. It is the base of our relationship.

 

But, as I said, my relationship is not the same as we ended up together. I think part of his respect for me is that I was not willing to put up with being OW for long and I expected a lot from him.

 

And as for what the other poster saying there is a double standard, there is. I thought it was interesting how my guy's ex said how stupid I was and that he would cheat on me too, but still kept fighting for him to come home. When I realized it was all about money, it made more sense.

[DKT3]

Well, I don't know about other relationships but in my situation the only way he was able to have an affair at all was that he had lost every ounce of respect for his wife. He has always had a tremendous amount of love and respect for me and i reciprocate. It is the base of our relationship.

 

But, as I said, my relationship is not the same as we ended up together. I think part of his respect for me is that I was not willing to put up with being OW for long and I expected a lot from him.

 

And as for what the other poster saying there is a double standard, there is. I thought it was interesting how my guy's ex said how stupid I was and that he would cheat on me too, but still kept fighting for him to come home. When I realized it was all about money, it made more sense.

 

Your situation is different because, I think he would have left her without you in the picture. I think you believe it was your actions that pulled him out of the marriage, what its maybe more likely is you made him comfortable with his internal struggle to leave. There is a huge difference in that. Its like I say all the time, if I had a wonderful woman waiting for me I would have divorced my wife within weeks, instead it took me 14 months. I would have left either way, as I believe your husband would have.

[goodyblue]

Your situation is different because, I think he would have left her without you in the picture. I think you believe it was your actions that pulled him out of the marriage, what its maybe more likely is you made him comfortable with his internal struggle to leave. There is a huge difference in that. Its like I say all the time, if I had a wonderful woman waiting for me I would have divorced my wife within weeks, instead it took me 14 months. I would have left either way, as I believe your husband would have.

 

I could not have said it better myself. I do agree, he would have eventually left anyway but it would have taken forever. I am glad he didn't pussyfoot around. I truly believe in happiness and not wasting our lives in misery.

[velvette]

But that's OK when it's the BS to do that, right? Continue in a relationship with a known cheater, yes? Isn't that a 'double standard"? And following your line of thinking about a cheating Husbands "respect of women", that is not applicable to the BS then, correct? She was 'respected 'during his cheating according to your reasoning, no? I find that a double standard....This is the OM/OW Forum. Nothing is "safe" in affairs.... Clarify your reasoning.

 

I don't see it as a double standard. A double standard is when opposite sides of the same coin are treated differently. Staying in a relationship you are invested in is different than getting into a new relationship.

 

 

Apples to oranges and an entirely different topic if you want to start a new thread.

 

 

Respect is much like love. There is the feeling of love or respect and there is how you act on it. So yes a cheating husband may respect his wife, but not treat her with respect. But, in any case that is again a different topic.

 

 

I agree that little is safe in affairs, but that aside, many men choose married women to have affairs with because they believe it will be safer if the woman has a marriage she doesn't want to leave/lose.

 

 

Not sure what your point is about this being the OW forum. I think its clearly marked for everyone.

[goodyblue]

I don't see it as a double standard. A double standard is when opposite sides of the same coin are treated differently. Staying in a relationship you are invested in is different than getting into a new relationship.

 

 

Apples to oranges and an entirely different topic if you want to start a new thread.

 

 

Respect is much like love. There is the feeling of love or respect and there is how you act on it. So yes a cheating husband may respect his wife, but not treat her with respect. But, in any case that is again a different topic.

 

 

I agree that little is safe in affairs, but that aside, many men choose married women to have affairs with because they believe it will be safer if the woman has a marriage she doesn't want to leave/lose.

 

 

Not sure what your point is about this being the OW forum. I think its clearly marked for everyone.

 

Anyone can post in this forum, but you and I both know there is a lot of judgement and tearing down of OW in this forum when clearly it is stated at the top of every thread that it should be support and discussion.

 

And no, you can't just say you respect someone. If you don't show it, there is no respect. Just like love, if you don't exhibit it, then it is not there.

Edited April 19, 2015 by goodyblue

[velvette]

Anyone can post in this forum, but you and I both know there is a lot of judgement and tearing down of OW in this forum when clearly it is stated at the top of every thread that it should be support and discussion.

 

And no, you can't just say you respect someone. If you don't show it, there is no respect. Just like love, if you don't exhibit it, then it is not there.

 

If Doublegold wants to clarify her point she is free to. I'm not inclined to derail the thread by discussing your interpretation of what she said.

 

 

We can agree to disagree. Humans are imperfect. Each one has a different capacity to love or respect anyone mostly dependent on whether or not they have healthy self love and self respect imo.

 

 

But, everyday in situations other than cheating people treat people they love and respect in ways that are not loving or respectful. When its done they still love and respect the person and hopefully make amends for their poor behavior.

 

 

You love your children I am sure. Have you never raised your voice to them in impatience or exasperation even though you love them?