Embracing the OW role....

[AngeliqueC]

Tauriel, that's really been my greatest concern, that he would have a medical issue that would be difficult to deal with. We've discussed several different thoughts - divorce, preferably with mediation to divide the assets as fairly as possible (community property state), or legal separation with power of attorney, living will, advance directives where we give each other the legal right to make decisions on behalf of one another.

 

I had a former FIL who was a serial cheater throughout a forty plus year marriage. When he had a debilitating stroke, his wife was thrilled to "pull the plug" and take him off life support. That just horrifies me still.

[Tauriel]

Tauriel, that's really been my greatest concern, that he would have a medical issue that would be difficult to deal with. We've discussed several different thoughts - divorce, preferably with mediation to divide the assets as fairly as possible (community property state), or legal separation with power of attorney, living will, advance directives where we give each other the legal right to make decisions on behalf of one another.

 

I had a former FIL who was a serial cheater throughout a forty plus year marriage. When he had a debilitating stroke, his wife was thrilled to "pull the plug" and take him off life support. That just horrifies me still.

 

It SHOULD horrify you! My uncle cheated his way through his M to my aunt. When he got Alzheimer's, she threw him into the crappiest Medicaid facility she could find. It was just awful. Neither of them were "bad" people, but she built up so much resentment throughout the M, there was no way she could find any sympathy for the poor soul.

 

I guess I speak from a place of having been very ill (when I was still young). I was married at the time, and thank god me and my now-exH were still on good terms. He took great care of me, and for that, I am grateful. But knowing what that is like, to have to rely on your life partner (and knowing that he alone was responsible for my medical decisions, should I have become incapacitated), it has made me extremely mindful of who I choose to let into my life in the future.

[AngeliqueC]

So, Tauriel, back to the original premise of embracing the OW side - do you see viable avenues to long term emrs that go into your 50s, 60s, 70s and even beyond? When the PA subsides a bit and the intimate, emotional, supportive and comforting aspects take more of the center stage? The medical side is something to consider, along with mobility, cognitive function, and I'm sure a lot moreI haven't thought of yet.

[Tauriel]

So, Tauriel, back to the original premise of embracing the OW side - do you see viable avenues to long term emrs that go into your 50s, 60s, 70s and even beyond? When the PA subsides a bit and the intimate, emotional, supportive and comforting aspects take more of the center stage? The medical side is something to consider, along with mobility, cognitive function, and I'm sure a lot moreI haven't thought of yet.

 

From a legal standpoint, no. You and MM can draw up all of the legal documents you want granting you access to him, but these are easily thrown out by the court. This would be true, even if you were both free/single, and a family member wished to interfere. Ask proponents of marriage equality why they fight so hard for it, and they'll tell you it's because of this.

 

Say, for example, I met someone and lived with him, but neither of us wanted to get married. We get into our 80s, and I need LT care. We've gone through all of the legal venues that grant him the right to take care of me. Whoops! A third cousin I barely know is aware that I have substantial assets and petitions the court to be my legal guardian. Chances are excellent the cousin will succeed. Ties are established by laws of intestate succession. First husband/wife, then mother/father, then children, then siblings, etc.

 

The court's logic is that is someone really wanted you to be in his or her life in such an intimate capacity, they would have married you. Because they didn't marry you, they had grave doubts and may have signed some other legal document under duress. Let's defer to Anna Nicole Smith, who married some old codger for his money. His family tried to invalidate his will after he passed away and were unsuccessful, because she was his wife, and regardless of why she married him, they were married, and he entered into the marriage willingly. Your spouse can hate you and wish you dead, but he or she will always have legal rights that are very hard to take away.

[AngeliqueC]

So, is it possible to make someone other than your spouse your legal guardian while you are still of sound mind?

[Tauriel]

So, is it possible to make someone other than your spouse your legal guardian while you are still of sound mind?

 

You can try. Typically, the power of attorney defaults to one's spouse, or their children. I shared joint POA with my mom, for example.

 

And again, a court would likely throw out any type of legal agreement, if a person was still married or even if they had children, and those family members contested it. Again, the logic is that you trust your spouse -- this is, after all, not just a husband or wife; this is your closest family member, by law. Spouses have rights that no other family members do -- they receive a deceased spouse's retirement benefits (from a pension), SS, life insurance (by default, if no beneficiary is named); some assets, such as IRAs, pass down without the need to probate. If there is no will, the spouse receives everything.

 

That's how powerful the marital bond is (from a legal perspective). I don't think that many married people actually sit down and think about these things in great depth. Your MM really should educate himself, IMHO.

[jwi71]

So, is it possible to make someone other than your spouse your legal guardian while you are still of sound mind?

 

So much work to AVOID D ....

 

Seems far simpler for MM, who wants this, to simply get a D, get M to you and all of these problems are solved.

 

What's the hold up there? Why these elaborate and, from what I read, legally dubious "contracts"...

 

Something worth considering.

[Tauriel]

What's the hold up there? Why these elaborate and, from what I read, legally dubious "contracts"...

 

Don't get me wrong here ... some POA are good to go. Say you're single, never married, without children or siblings, and both parents have passed away. You can list a close friend or domestic partner as a POA (or even the executor of your will), and chances are your distant family will have zero problems with it, especially if they haven't been really involved in your life. IRL, I can see no H/W being remotely okay with their spouse making their lover a POA.

[AngeliqueC]

We're just exploring options right now. He's talked to the retirement advisors with his job, looked at his debt (and to some degree hers - most of their accounts are "sole and separate") and the next step he wants to take is to talk with a tax professional to see how different scenarios would impact him short term.

 

Frankly, I'm not 100% in favor of him divorcing, because I know how badly he handles conflict. His answer to conflict is to throw money at it until it goes away, but from my own experience with divorce, the conflict can be long and tortuous - probably resulting in him losing eighty percent of the assets instead of fifty. And I have some concern she might get an attorney who would go after my assets for alienation of affection. So, although we are financially comfortable now, in theory, she could decimate both of us. (Overall, my net worth is in the very low seven figures and theirs is approaching seven figures.)

Edited April 25, 2015 by AngeliqueC

[Tauriel]

Frankly, I'm not 100% in favor of him divorcing, because I know how badly he handles conflict. His answer to conflict is to throw money at it until it goes away, but from my own experience with divorce, the conflict can be long and tortuous - probably resulting in him losing eighty percent of the assets instead of fifty. And I have some concern she might get an attorney who would go after my assets for alienation of affection. So, although we are financially comfortable now, in theory, she could decimate both of us. (Overall, my net worth is in the very low seven figures and theirs is approaching seven figures.)

 

How much your MM is looking at parting company with is much a matter of how things are handled in the state of residence. Where I live, it's equitable -- that is to say, courts look at how much each spouse contributed during the course of the marriage and other factors, such as the presence of minor children and if a spouse hasn't worked for X-number of years. Because my first exH never worked, I could have realistically gotten a 70/30 in my favor, but I didn't want to be quite that uncharitable. Getting spousal support is next to impossible in my state; if you are not of retirement age, the court expects your butt to be pounding that pavement.

 

I can say this: never file for divorce in Utah ...

[AlwaysGrowing]

My grandparents separated when my father was 7. They never divorced. Both had SO, my step-grandfather died and left everything to my grandmother. When my grandfather died my grandmother got most of his possessions and his military pension. They were separated for 45 years.

[Tauriel]

My grandparents separated when my father was 7. They never divorced. Both had SO, my step-grandfather died and left everything to my grandmother. When my grandfather died my grandmother got most of his possessions and his military pension. They were separated for 45 years.

 

Wow, that's ... I don't know what to say.

 

As soon as I figured out that exH 2 was not to be trusted with my welfare, I filed for D ASAP. I am still relatively young, and now I'm over my health crisis. But you never know when a chronic/terminal illness might strike. I didn't want him in control over my future, and I didn't want to be in control of his. No amount of money would have changed that.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Wow, that's ... I don't know what to say.

 

As soon as I figured out that exH 2 was not to be trusted with my welfare, I filed for D ASAP. I am still relatively young, and now I'm over my health crisis. But you never know when a chronic/terminal illness might strike. I didn't want him in control over my future, and I didn't want to be in control of his. No amount of money would have changed that.

 

 

My parents say that although my grandfather was great in that role....he was not a good father or husband. My grandmother kicked him out after arriving home from shopping to find the living room furniture gone. He lost it gambling. I think he spent the rest of his days making amends to the family he gambled away.

 

He was awesome to me....very attentive, kind...just lovely.

[AngeliqueC]

That would be a deal breaker for me, to come home to an empty living room!!!

[Grapesofwrath]

I don't think that many married people actually sit down and think about these things in great depth. Your MM really should educate himself, IMHO.

 

I wish it was required, before marriage, to read and sign this entire marital contract. Most people have NO IDEA the legal ramifications of marriage, until they are trying to break the contract through divorce. I learned the hard way. Love is love and marriage is marriage. Love means something different to each of us. But marriage means something very specific in the eyes of the law in your state. Choosing a marital partner--or electing not to choose one at all-- is the single most important decision a person can make.

[Poppy47]

Angeilique,

I might have missed something in your posts, but is the W aware of you?

 

Have you ever met her or has MM had a D day in 20 years?

 

Poppy

[AngeliqueC]

Poppy, I have no idea how "aware" she is. I've seen her in passing, but not met her (to my knowledge. Early on, I suspected she was a woman who knocked on my door asking about real estate in the neighborhood, but that was years before I ever actually saw her in a parking lot one evening, so by then, I have no idea.)

 

And no DDay that I'm aware of - he swears she has never asked questions nor confronted him in any way.

[whatatangledweb]

We're just exploring options right now. He's talked to the retirement advisors with his job, looked at his debt (and to some degree hers - most of their accounts are "sole and separate") and the next step he wants to take is to talk with a tax professional to see how different scenarios would impact him short term.

 

 

In divorce there usually is no her debt and his debt. It is considered marital debt at least in my state. That means both are responsible for it. It can be split in half or they could come to an agreement to take on the debt that is listed in their own name or the breadwinner could have to take on most of it. I have seen it happen in each of the ways I listed.

[Tauriel]

I wish it was required, before marriage, to read and sign this entire marital contract. Most people have NO IDEA the legal ramifications of marriage, until they are trying to break the contract through divorce. I learned the hard way. Love is love and marriage is marriage. Love means something different to each of us. But marriage means something very specific in the eyes of the law in your state. Choosing a marital partner--or electing not to choose one at all-- is the single most important decision a person can make.

 

Especially if you have kids with that person! You better be damned sure you want to spend the rest of your life with that person, because if you don't -- ? Even if you get divorced, your ex will always be a part of your life until the day you die, and that's a long time.

 

I worked in family law for, like, a second (in my career life), and men were clueless when it came to how conservatorship (custody) is awarded. "My ex-wive is primary conservator! NO FAIR!" Look, it's just this simple: whoever has been doing drudge duty gets the kids. This falls under the category of "best interest of the child". That means the parent who takes them to school and back, packs the lunches, makes their meals, does their laundry, ferries them to soccer, shuttles them to the doctor, and stays home when they're sick. If divorced dads had done all of that petty but necessary stuff, they would be primary conservators. There is no explicit gender bias here. I've known a few "Mr. Moms" who were primary conservators.

 

But I digress ...

[Grapesofwrath]

In divorce there usually is no her debt and his debt. It is considered marital debt at least in my state. That means both are responsible for it. It can be split in half or they could come to an agreement to take on the debt that is listed in their own name or the breadwinner could have to take on most of it. I have seen it happen in each of the ways I listed.

 

Oh, Web. Another lesson learned the hard way. My ex-H had amassed mountains of debt without my knowledge. In the interest of not elevating my blood pressure, I won't go into details. Bankruptcy was inevitable. And even though it was his debt, accrued by him, using his name, the burden was equally on my shoulders because of the marital laws. As the primary breadwinner, I was also required to pay spousal support for a time.

 

If I should ever marry again, nothing says "I love you" like a pre-nup.

[AngeliqueC]

Web, I'm pretty certain he's not really sure how much money she owes on credit cards. A few years back, we were at a car dealership buying him a new car and when they pulled his credit report, a lot of stuff in her name that he was clueless about showed up. He said later that they ended up having a discussion that night over debt and income (my guess is it wasn't exactly pleasant or cordial). He got the car, but it threw him for a loop and into a higher interest payment. Still, though, I doubt she owes anywhere near what he does (another issue I have with remarriage, to anyone. I'm debt free and want to stay that way!).

[Robert]

Remaining closed.....start a new topic instead of veering off this one in search of your own agenda. Thank you.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Robert