Character Flaw in WS?

[goodyblue]

My wife was so cool. She let me hang out with my friends and play pool every weekend. She would pop into the bar and check on us from time to time. My other married friends would say their wives would never let them hang out at the bar all weekend. I had the coolest wife ever. And then I found out while I was playing pool with my friends, she was banging other men. No wonder she didn't care if I stayed out till midnight playing pool. She would say "As long as you are not cheating on me, have fun with your friends.".

 

Why would someone who is married want to.spend all weekend, every weekend at a bar playing pool with his friends instead of spending time with his wife??? Sounds like you are.pretty cool yourself.

[fellini]

I think it is you putting more into my words than seems necessary, or available.

 

A woman who has no child of her own, and a husband who does from a previous relationship and therefore doesn't require one is not a character flaw, and if it were, surely it would be on me.

 

My wife wanted marriage and I didn't care, this is not a character flaw on her, yet again, surely more on me! But you missed the point. I live in a Catholic country and her father would not speak with her while we were living together unwed. She wanted to make peace with him before he died. I dont see that as a character flaw. The opposite. And I asked her to marry me because I knew she was the one. So I dont know whose story you think you have read but I don't see mine in your summary.

 

I was content to rent she wanted to buy? How is this a character flaw in her? We both later agreed to buy when the cost of renting equalled monthly mortgage payments. It was my idea. What has this to do with character flaw?

 

I do not remember saying she wanted to work more on her career. She is a professor in a university, not a wall street broker or a lawyer. I dont know where you get this stuff from.

I have said that she started working more and that I put more time into being with my daughter, but this makes my child centred move a character flaw on me, not her. As a professor she has enormous leeway in how to adapt her time. How is wanting to publish more a character flaw in her?

 

Do you seriously think that anyone should accept your retelling of my 20 years of marriage in 5 sentences are sufficient for you to deduce that she has always had character flaws?

 

So it is your position that people here in LS who have lived with their spouses for 10, 15, 20 years are not able to properly assess the deficiency in their spouse, but you can take a couple of posts about mortgages, child interests, cohabitation and know that someone you have never met can have the foundations for cheating?

 

I don't see the "gently" in your talk, I see massive attempts to interpret without any context and huge leaps of imagination about what is a flaw.

 

 

Fellini you seem to projecting and putting words in my mouth.

 

Gently....

 

Your wife was once an OW before you, you've written about how she wanted a child and you were hesitant because you already had another child from a previous relationship. Yet, you agreed to have another baby, and adore her. Your wife wanted marriage but you were content with being common law, and you yet again you married her. You were content to rent, but your wife wanted home ownership, and once again you gave her her wish. In one of your posts past posts you wrote about how she told you she didn't like coming home and that being a parent for her was not enough and she wanted to concentrate on her career, which left you are the primary parent while she did this. instead of appreciating you she embarked in affair with a work colleague.

 

I have to say the character flaws in her were always there. Sorry...

 

I believe that actions are older than words.

[Hope Shimmers]

The point she was trying to make as I understand it, is that your wife not appreciating everything you have given into the marriage and repaying you by cheating on you is a character flaw.

[Furious]

The point she was trying to make as I understand it, is that your wife not appreciating everything you have given into the marriage and repaying you by cheating on you is a character flaw.

 

Yes, Hope Shimmers that was my point. Thank you.

[fellini]

I think to overlook my point that people live in happy marriages for 5, 10, 15, 20 25 years and then suddenly find themselves in an affair they never thought they would ever end up in, and to turn that around by trying to dissect a spouse is pushing it.

 

if one wants to attack a flaw that supposedly led to an affair after 20 years, how does one account for the 20 years of living happily in the marriage. Happily don't mean there are no disagreements, we all disagree. Disagreeing with when to buy a house or have a child or a wedding date are not signs that one partner does not appreciate the other, they are signs that neither partner has subordinated themselves in a marriage.

 

The fact is my WW allowed herself to seduce, and be seduced by another man after 17 years of marriage. And perhaps instead of looking for flaws some people should be looking at the issues of endurance in a marriage. That some spouses walk all over their partners or dismiss them I don't doubt. But 20 years is not something to be so easily dismissed. Nor is the happiness that existed before the infidelity.

[Hardgrind]

Perhaps with D Day being over a year ago now, I am trying to distill her A down to something that I can neatly package into the product of a straightforward "defect" in my STBXW. I know reality is more complicated than that, but I have already used up too much time and energy trying to understand what is happening in her head. (Her words have not matched her actions over the past year, so I can't really take what she says at face value.)

 

I have seen posts where the WS talks about their feelings for the AP in terms that sound more like an addiction to drugs than a healthy relationship with a true love. In many ways I sense that with my WW. The affair makes no logical sense unless I look it in terms of her getting a high from it that she can't walk away from. In our discussions after D Day she made it clear I needed to fix things about myself, but other than losing weight, there was nothing specific she could point out. She wasn't unhappy with me, she just believed she deserves to be happier than I could make her. And I was supposed to accomplish this without her communicating to me what she wanted....as she put it, the man is just supposed to know. Some authors have suggested that people sometimes have affairs not because they are giving too much to their marriage, but rather because they are giving too little. I think that definitely applies to her in our case.

 

 

Also I believe she craves the intenseness of early stage relationships. I have read that if the A leads to a stable three way relationship where the BS remains married but the A continues between WS and the AP, the relationship between the WS and AP can last for years when under normal circumstances it would collapse much sooner. The reason they gave is the high achieved through an illicit affair and the ability to avoid real world issues in the A since these were still being handled in the M. I had no intention or desire to be the enabler off of which they fed to keep their A going.

[ladydesigner]

I believe there has to be some kind of flaw in your character to be able to cheat and carry on an affair because not everyone cheats. To lie and deceive a person you agreed to have a monogamous relationship with is not a great trait.

[goodyblue]

I think to overlook my point that people live in happy marriages for 5, 10, 15, 20 25 years and then suddenly find themselves in an affair they never thought they would ever end up in, and to turn that around by trying to dissect a spouse is pushing it.

 

if one wants to attack a flaw that supposedly led to an affair after 20 years, how does one account for the 20 years of living happily in the marriage. Happily don't mean there are no disagreements, we all disagree. Disagreeing with when to buy a house or have a child or a wedding date are not signs that one partner does not appreciate the other, they are signs that neither partner has subordinated themselves in a marriage.

 

The fact is my WW allowed herself to seduce, and be seduced by another man after 17 years of marriage. And perhaps instead of looking for flaws some people should be looking at the issues of endurance in a marriage. That some spouses walk all over their partners or dismiss them I don't doubt. But 20 years is not something to be so easily dismissed. Nor is the happiness that existed before the infidelity.

 

It is the MO here some of the time to attack if the post is not agreed upon. Happens all the time on the OM/OW side. Try to take it with a grain of salt.

 

I don't believe most people who have affairs have some major character flaw. It / is something people say to soothe themselves when they are betrayed, in my opinion. Sorry, my nutrients have a character flaw. He and I both made a huge mistake. We then made it right. Does he still have the character flaw? Was he miraculously cured?

 

People do stupid things all the dang time. I believe in forgiveness, in change for the better, in rising above and being better in the future, rather than the lame excuse of some character defect that someone needs to pin on a person in order to make sense of how someone could cheat on them when they are such a great spouse. Sorry. I don't buy it in most cases

[ladydesigner]

People do stupid things all the dang time. I believe in forgiveness, in change for the better, in rising above and being better in the future, rather than the lame excuse of some character defect that someone needs to pin on a person in order to make sense of how someone could cheat on them when they are such a great spouse. Sorry. I don't buy it in most cases

 

I would agree that an A is about the stupidest thing a person could do to their M. I also do not believe ALL WS's have a major character flaw, but they are indeed flawed in their thinking to lie and betray someone they supposedly made promises to. I know for one that I do not want to live my life this way and when I did I had very flawed thinking that led to faulty choices and a lot of other f'ed up stuff too. Now if the cheater is a repeat cheater like my WH you can bet your A** there is a serious character flaw.

[goodyblue]

I would agree that an A is about the stupidest thing a person could do to their M. I also do not believe ALL WS's have a major character flaw, but they are indeed flawed in their thinking to lie and betray someone they supposedly made promises to. I know for one that I do not want to live my life this way and when I did I had very flawed thinking that led to faulty choices and a lot of other f'ed up stuff too. Now if the cheater is a repeat cheater like my WH you can bet your A** there is a serious character flaw.

 

Agree with serial cheaters. But for most, not a character flaw. Just stupid choices. A character flaw implies that there is no redemption. For most, I think change is possible. Flawed thinking on a temporary basis, not someone's entire life is not a character flaw.

[autumnnight]

I think it is you putting more into my words than seems necessary, or available.

 

A woman who has no child of her own, and a husband who does from a previous relationship and therefore doesn't require one is not a character flaw, and if it were, surely it would be on me.

 

I do not see a flaw in either of you. She wanted children. In the end, so did you.

 

My wife wanted marriage and I didn't care, this is not a character flaw on her, yet again, surely more on me! But you missed the point. I live in a Catholic country and her father would not speak with her while we were living together unwed. She wanted to make peace with him before he died. I dont see that as a character flaw. The opposite. And I asked her to marry me because I knew she was the one. So I dont know whose story you think you have read but I don't see mine in your summary.

 

Again, seems to me your wife's family's morals mattered to her, and she wanted a relationship with her father. And you, because you loved her, made that commitment. Still not seeing a flaw.

 

I was content to rent she wanted to buy? How is this a character flaw in her? We both later agreed to buy when the cost of renting equalled monthly mortgage payments. It was my idea. What has this to do with character flaw?

 

Honestly, your wife was right. Renting is throwing money away with nothing to show for it. Buying is investment. Again, unless a wise financial decision is a flaw, not seeing it

 

I do not remember saying she wanted to work more on her career. She is a professor in a university, not a wall street broker or a lawyer. I dont know where you get this stuff from.

 

They NEED to get this stuff because the idea that someone could cheat at any point in their life and still have value as a person is not conceivable. It ruins the moral high ground

 

I have said that she started working more and that I put more time into being with my daughter, but this makes my child centred move a character flaw on me, not her. As a professor she has enormous leeway in how to adapt her time. How is wanting to publish more a character flaw in her?

 

Yes, by all means, being a good dad to your daughter somehow translates into a character flaw for both of you....

 

Do you seriously think that anyone should accept your retelling of my 20 years of marriage in 5 sentences are sufficient for you to deduce that she has always had character flaws?

 

So it is your position that people here in LS who have lived with their spouses for 10, 15, 20 years are not able to properly assess the deficiency in their spouse, but you can take a couple of posts about mortgages, child interests, cohabitation and know that someone you have never met can have the foundations for cheating?

 

I don't see the "gently" in your talk, I see massive attempts to interpret without any context and huge leaps of imagination about what is a flaw.

 

Fellini, the bottom line is that there are people who choose not to believe in redemption and get secondary gain from writing off the past and future of anyone who commits THIS particular martial sin. It's just life. I happen to think bitterness is a character flaw, but that's just me.

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't know. I'm not bitter, and I am having a lot of trouble understanding how doing something like that to your spouse is not a character flaw. I guess to me the term 'character flaw' (versus just a really terrible thing to do) indicates that it is something inherent about the person that caused them to do this. It seems to be the case, that these people have entitlement issues, are selfish, have narcissistic traits, etc. And to me, that means it could always happen again.

 

It just seems that some people here who have reconciled have a lot of anger and defensiveness when anyone even remotely disagrees with them on any topic. To me that means they are not as happy as they are trying to convince themselves and others that they are. To me that's a terrible way to have to live, when you didn't ask for it and didn't deserve it. It makes me sad. I don't think I could do it.

[goodyblue]

I don't know. I'm not bitter, and I am having a lot of trouble understanding how doing something like that to your spouse is not a character flaw. I guess to me the term 'character flaw' (versus just a really terrible thing to do) indicates that it is something inherent about the person that caused them to do this. It seems to be the case, that these people have entitlement issues, are selfish, have narcissistic traits, etc. And to me, that means it could always happen again.

 

It just seems that some people here who have reconciled have a lot of anger and defensiveness when anyone even remotely disagrees with them on any topic. To me that means they are not as happy as they are trying to convince themselves and others that they are. To me that's a terrible way to have to live, when you didn't ask for it and didn't deserve it. It makes me sad. I don't think I could do it.

 

As hypocritical as this is, Hope, if someone cheated on me, I would walk.

[autumnnight]

I think it is the idea of permanent versus temporary that just gets me. With pretty much any other marital hurt or betrayal, not only do people look for "reasons" it happened, they are supposed to bend over backward because maybe things can change. But with an A, not only is the implication that to keep trying is "weak," there is this ridiculous notion that everyone who has an A was some kind of evil incarnate in disguise just waiting to shed their skin and leap into deceit. Like they are some sort of ticking evil time bomb that has no choice but to go off, and once they do, they have no choice but to remain evil until death.

 

That is ridiculous. We believe in redemption and the ability to change in pretty much every other case (unless we are just angry jaded people). And yet, a man or woman who is a faithful spouse for 20 years, cheats for a few months (which is reprehensible) and then is faithful for 20 more years is actually inherently evil and the few months they spend cheating is their "real self."

 

Garbage.

[Hope Shimmers]

I think it is the idea of permanent versus temporary that just gets me. With pretty much any other marital hurt or betrayal, not only do people look for "reasons" it happened, they are supposed to bend over backward because maybe things can change. But with an A, not only is the implication that to keep trying is "weak," there is this ridiculous notion that everyone who has an A was some kind of evil incarnate in disguise just waiting to shed their skin and leap into deceit. Like they are some sort of ticking evil time bomb that has no choice but to go off, and once they do, they have no choice but to remain evil until death.

 

That is ridiculous. We believe in redemption and the ability to change in pretty much every other case (unless we are just angry jaded people). And yet, a man or woman who is a faithful spouse for 20 years, cheats for a few months (which is reprehensible) and then is faithful for 20 more years is actually inherently evil and the few months they spend cheating is their "real self."

 

Garbage.

 

I think the problem is in identifying a priori if they are going to be faithful for 20 more years. No?

[autumnnight]

I think the problem is in identifying a priori if they are going to be faithful for 20 more years. No?

 

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

Bottom line, if you want to retroactively assign someone as evil prior to their affair and keep them in the evil category no matter what they do after their affair, have at it.

 

I choose not to live that way.

 

I assume if someone gambles away the rent, drinks, uses porn excessively, withholds intimacy, etc. you believe they also were just disguised evil waiting to pounce and cannot be redeemed. Because those things can be just as damaging in a marriage.

 

What sins CAN someone be redeemed from?

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

Bottom line, if you want to retroactively assign someone as evil prior to their affair and keep them in the evil category no matter what they do after their affair, have at it.

 

I choose not to live that way.

 

I assume if someone gambles away the rent, drinks, uses porn excessively, withholds intimacy, etc. you believe they also were just disguised evil waiting to pounce and cannot be redeemed. Because those things can be just as damaging in a marriage.

 

What sins CAN someone be redeemed from?

 

I am not sure why you are getting worked up at me?

 

I never used the word 'evil'. That's your word.

 

I thought this was a discussion about character flaws, which to me would have an impact on what people might be inclined to do in the future. A character flaw is something inherent. A mistake is a mistake. Can people overcome character flaws? I don't know.

 

I'm just trying to discuss, not argue.

 

What I meant is that if you can predict the future such as to know that someone who cheated would never do it again, it's a lot different than having to live while wondering.

[jnel921]

Cheaters lack lots of things like boundaries, sympathy, respect and so many other things capable of breaking a heart. Not sure if that is a character flaw. I just call it selfish.

[Spark1111]

I don't know. I'm not bitter, and I am having a lot of trouble understanding how doing something like that to your spouse is not a character flaw. I guess to me the term 'character flaw' (versus just a really terrible thing to do) indicates that it is something inherent about the person that caused them to do this. It seems to be the case, that these people have entitlement issues, are selfish, have narcissistic traits, etc. And to me, that means it could always happen again.

 

It just seems that some people here who have reconciled have a lot of anger and defensiveness when anyone even remotely disagrees with them on any topic. To me that means they are not as happy as they are trying to convince themselves and others that they are. To me that's a terrible way to have to live, when you didn't ask for it and didn't deserve it. It makes me sad. I don't think I could do it.

 

Ok, I get it.

 

But MOST people could not lie daily to the face of someone who loved and trusted them. COULD not do it. COULD not hide it with underground, pre-paid cell phones, hidden texts, sexts and emails, falsified bank statements...hotel rooms, secret dinners....COULD not do it.

 

COULD you? Did you?

 

It takes a certain, small stats, ability to do that pathology.

 

I was a great wife, partner, mother, daughter and daughter-in-law. Ask the 100 people who knew us in our community.

 

During his affair with a very needy D co-worker, we plummeted to sex twice a week from the usual four times a week. I chalked it up to new, high-powered, job stress.

 

superior? hardly. i gave him carte blanche to be with his soul mate, the one who wanted to save him from his loveless marriage. I loved him enough to let him go. It was the lying that killed me....he never had to to.

 

And the irony of it all? he NEVER told her he had carte blanche to sail off with her into the sunset....NEVER.

 

he CRIED at her kitchen table that he had to try to save his marriage for the sake of his children....just laughable, really.

 

Wake up here.

 

many a BS take a stand and demand the WS not let the door slam their azz as they pack up and leave.

 

But they don't WANT to.....no matter what bs they spin to their AP....and I intercepted it all on his cell phone, unbeknownst to either of them.

 

Most people are EXACTLY where they want to be.

[Hope Shimmers]

Ok, I get it.

 

But MOST people could not lie daily to the face of someone who loved and trusted them. COULD not do it. COULD not hide it with underground, pre-paid cell phones, hidden texts, sexts and emails, falsified bank statements...hotel rooms, secret dinners....COULD not do it.

 

COULD you? Did you?

 

It takes a certain, small stats, ability to do that pathology.

 

I was a great wife, partner, mother, daughter and daughter-in-law. Ask the 100 people who knew us in our community.

 

During his affair with a very needy D co-worker, we plummeted to sex twice a week from the usual four times a week. I chalked it up to new, high-powered, job stress.

 

superior? hardly. i gave him carte blanche to be with his soul mate, the one who wanted to save him from his loveless marriage. I loved him enough to let him go. It was the lying that killed me....he never had to to.

 

And the irony of it all? he NEVER told her he had carte blanche to sail off with her into the sunset....NEVER.

 

he CRIED at her kitchen table that he had to try to save his marriage for the sake of his children....just laughable, really.

 

Wake up here.

 

many a BS take a stand and demand the WS not let the door slam their azz as they pack up and leave.

 

But they don't WANT to.....no matter what bs they spin to their AP....and I intercepted it all on his cell phone, unbeknownst to either of them.

 

Most people are EXACTLY where they want to be.

 

Funny... that's the second time I've heard that phrase today. Most people are exactly where they want to be. I believe it.

 

I can't pretend to understand all of this but I'm learning from it.

 

You asked me if I lied to the face of a significant other... hell no. You asked me if I could. No.

[Grapesofwrath]

I believe we all have flaws to our character. The difference is the type and magnitude. Like many things in life, there is a spectrum. Is it a character flaw to look at another woman in front of your wife, so long as you do nothing? What if you smile at her? Say hi? Ask for her number? Talk to her? Sleep with her? You get my point.

 

Many American heroes were known cheaters. Martin Luther King, Jr.? Cheater. John F. Kennedy? Cheater. Franklin Roosevelt? Cheater. Magic Johnson? Cheater. There are many other examples of this in American history. As a nation, we overlook or "forgive the transgression" because it is secondary to other achievements and characteristics. The irony, as I see it, is that as a people we will forgive, but the individuals that they harmed are not supposed to. Why is that?

[Spark1111]

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

 

Bottom line, if you want to retroactively assign someone as evil prior to their affair and keep them in the evil category no matter what they do after their affair, have at it.

 

I choose not to live that way.

 

I assume if someone gambles away the rent, drinks, uses porn excessively, withholds intimacy, etc. you believe they also were just disguised evil waiting to pounce and cannot be redeemed. Because those things can be just as damaging in a marriage.

 

What sins CAN someone be redeemed from?

 

they can be redeemed from all of them IF they are truly remorseful, openly transparent, willing to introspect and discuss the thousands of steps that led them to cross such boundaries, and live an authentic life that they will never betray such love and trust again.

 

These are the tenets of every 12-step program that heals addicts, infidels, betrayers, liars and cheats.

[autumnnight]

they can be redeemed from all of them IF they are truly remorseful, openly transparent, willing to introspect and discuss the thousands of steps that led them to cross such boundaries, and live an authentic life that they will never betray such love and trust again.

 

These are the tenets of every 12-step program that heals addicts, infidels, betrayers, liars and cheats.

 

So in other words, it isn't some kind of permanent disroder that keeps them from being worthy. It really CAN be a horrible period of horrific choices that they can own, have remorse for, change, and move on from.

 

In other words, you CAN'T necessarily look at the past life of every cheater and see a bunch of big neon signs that they were "always flawed," and you cannot permanently consign them to some category of permanent flaw IF they work to change.

 

That was what I was driving at. This idea that there is something unavoidably "wrong" and "bad" at the core of everyone who cheats, and they are without hope.

 

It's funny....I found out less than 3 months ago that I was cheated ON by someone I loved with all my heart. And yet somehow because I do not assume he was born bad and has no hope but to be bad....I don't know. I still think there is a need to categorize anyone who cheats as a "different type of human" because it feels better, not because it is rooted in actual fact (with the exception of serial cheaters).

[goodyblue]

darling...the choice to have an affair is the journey of a thousand steps, which, at any point, you could have informed your spouse: either of your needs, the new secretary, that new work, gym, neighbor friend, the flirt getting out of hand, the texts, the sexts, the hotel room after dinner.

 

There are 1,000 opportunities to inform your spouse that you are sliding down THAT slippery slope, you need help, it's getting out of hand, you are losing control....and yet you say NOTHING. You keep it all secret.....because....WHY?

 

Most people could NOT do this secret keeping without sweating, anxiety, guilt, a total shut down or change of course. COULd not do it.

 

BUT the cheater says:

 

I need this.

 

I deserve this.

 

It makes me feel so good.

 

I feel more alive.....and then, in time,

 

My spouse doesn't understand me.

 

My spouse doesn't desire me enough.

 

My spouse is bored with me or bores me.

 

What my spouse doesn't know, can't hurt them.

 

No one will find out. I am in control of this......

 

And so on.

 

it's a cliche. Ask any psych, counselor, MC.

 

All affairs are the same. They follow the sam rhythms, time lime, cognitive dissonance.

 

No one is evil....just vulnerable, unstable, and flawed in that they can so easily talk themselves out of reality to justify and validate self-destructive ego needs.

 

I think people try to put a cheater in a box. There really are no hard or fast rules as evidenced by how my guy did none of that. When I point that out I am told how silly I am and how I turn every thread into Being about me, when really I am just speaking of and comparing what I experienced. I kno our A is different in a lot of ways, but so is every affair.

 

Spark, you were lucky. You shut that shiz down and made him man up or get out. Very admirable. It may not have worked for someone else. Like Raena... look how outlandish her ex's A was. Just... all different.

 

I don't feel my guy had poor boundaries. I feel he has very good ones, but chose to ignore them actively, and with reason. We wish we hadn't started as we did but we did. At the time it made sense to us and our relationship probably would not be whAt it is otherwise.

 

But I do not believe his character is I obediently flawed and that he is ruined. And that is what I believe people mean when they use this phrase. That it can't be repaired or overcome. For most I just do not believe that to be true.

[Spark1111]

PS: And that starts in childhood with the inability to express needs because no one taught you how to; lying and hiding because truth-telling resulted in harsh discipline; being made to feel less than and culminating with no one able to fulfill the void of need within you.

 

way before he ever met and fell in love with you.

 

Love him. Forgive him. Force him to go to counseling as a condition of reconciliation.

 

or live with the fact that these deep-seated flaws will ALWAYS make him vulnerable to the attention of strangers....no matter how much he may truly LOVE you.