Character Flaw in WS?

[Spark1111]

I think people try to put a cheater in a box. There really are no hard or fast rules as evidenced by how my guy did none of that. When I point that out I am told how silly I am and how I turn every thread into Being about me, when really I am just speaking of and comparing what I experienced. I kno our A is different in a lot of ways, but so is every affair.

 

Spark, you were lucky. You shut that shiz down and made him man up or get out. Very admirable. It may not have worked for someone else. Like Raena... look how outlandish her ex's A was. Just... all different.

 

I don't feel my guy had poor boundaries. I feel he has very good ones, but chose to ignore them actively, and with reason. We wish we hadn't started as we did but we did. At the time it made sense to us and our relationship probably would not be whAt it is otherwise

 

But I do not believe his character is I obediently flawed and that he is ruined. And that is what I believe people mean when they use this phrase. That it can't be repaired or overcome. For most I just do not believe that to be true.

 

goody, forgive me as I do not know your back story.

 

Is your's the rare exit affair? that's a horse of a different color, entirely.

 

but if he lied, deceived his spouse while engaging in a new relationship with you...that does not bode well for honesty and intimacy, does it?

 

And how long was he able to lie or omit to her while engaging with you?

 

exit affairs are characterized by HONESTY on the part of the WS....with the support of their immediate family and friends. The AP is almost NEVER

A secret. everyone moves QUICKLY to be together.

 

is this your scenario?

[goodyblue]

goody, forgive me as I do not know your back story.

 

Is your's the rare exit affair? that's a horse of a different color, entirely.

 

but if he lied, deceived his spouse while engaging in a new relationship with you...that does not bode well for honesty and intimacy, does it?

 

And how long was he able to lie or omit to her while engaging with you?

 

exit affairs are characterized by HONESTY on the part of the WS....with the support of their immediate family and friends. The AP is almost NEVER

A secret. everyone moves QUICKLY to be together.

 

is this your scenario?

 

He was in a 29 year marriage to an alcoholic (she wasn't the first part of their marriage, it got worse as time went on). The last 12 years were no sex, she said it was because of body issues, she felt fat. They were staunch Catholics and didn't believe in divorce, he stayed to raise his daughter. Our affair was short, I don't know exactly how long but less than a year. Nobody knew about me. We had an exit plan and he was implementing it. She found his second phone way before our deadline for him to be gone. He was honest with her and left that day. We have never looked back. But we did a lot of things to make it right for us. We were in therapy, I moved across the country and rented a house a mile from him and we dated. We made amends to family and friends, and when his D was final we moved in together. We just bought a home and are very happy.

 

I think he didn't like to be the bad guy and needed the incentive to leave but it was the best thing he ever did. But therapy really helped us understand ourselves and to make sure we knew why what happened did happen. We don't have trust issues, we spend all of our spare time together and are compatible. It is a good life. On the flip side, years later his ex is bitter and feels I stole her life. She is mad about her meal ticket walking. I used to be really terrible about her, but I try to be kinder now. Not always easy

 

Us in a nut shell.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I believe it it shortsightedness or rug sweeping to say people are without flaws/poor coping mechanisms. Let alone...those that chose to cheat.

 

That is not to say...we can not repair/learn/grow from our past.

 

Heck...I honestly believe that for most of us...we have lived our life without a second thought to how we process/cope. Until the s$&@ hits the fan. It is then...standing in the s$&@..... that we go...how the f$&@ did I end up here!

 

Once we look into how we tick and why, we then have the choice to change.

[truncated]

When it comes right down to it, very few affairs "just happen". They are the end result of a whole series of choices.

 

Of course there will be lots of arguments made that sometimes it happens so insidiously that someone doesn't realize they are cheating until that line has been crossed.

 

either way, the character of the person cheating, at the point in time, is suspect.

 

they are either acting dishonestly or have really poor boundaries, and neither of these are good things.

 

Also, many times the ws is not only lying to their spouse but to the om/ow as well. Again, this does not bode well for them at that point in time.

 

Mind you this does not mean they can't learn better behavior patterns, but each bs has to ask themselves if they are willing to assume that risk, to open themselves up to potentially being hurt again. In that situation, I can see how many would choose not to do so.

[truncated]

I believe it it shortsightedness or rug sweeping to say people are without flaws/poor coping mechanisms. Let alone...those that chose to cheat.

 

That is not to say...we can not repair/learn/grow from our past.

 

Heck...I honestly believe that for most of us...we have lived our life without a second thought to how we process/cope. Until the s$&@ hits the fan. It is then...standing in the s$&@..... that we go...how the f$&@ did I end up here!

 

Once we look into how we tick and why, we then have the choice to change.

 

well put. as much as I dislike the "dr.phil set" and its pop psychology, there is truth to his saying that you can't change what you don't acknowledge.

[fellini]

Once a spouse makes a decision to cross a boundary, or let it down a little, for example in the workplace, every single action they take to continue and to shed other boundaries is all part of what we mean by moving into an affair. 1000s of steps, yes. Agreed.

 

 

So surely one view is that the decision to have an affair, after say 20 years of marriage, has at its beginning a faithful spouse who for reasons unbeknownst to perhaps even him/herself the conscious or unconscious decision to explore something new, outside of the marriage (After all those years)

 

To confuse character flaw (personality issue) with a decision made perhaps 20 years into married life and perhaps 30 years of being in relationships is quite clearly pushing common sense to its limits.

 

It's ludicrous to try to explain infidelity by taking as your proof a VOW made for the first time in one's life, to do something you haven't the faintest idea if you have the resources to do, only the intention to try, and to 25 years later say, "hey, you lied on the alter". You ARE a liar.

 

The lie, the lying began with the coworker s/he chose to explore after 15, 25 whatever years of living in a good Marriage.

 

It's time people who are able to get their heads around the horrible concept of serial cheats like BlackHat, to also get their heads around the concept of a sudden, late in the marriage infidelity which, once ended, processed and dealt with properly between two interested adults, has no specific reason to occur again. People get it, and move on.

 

Only looking for what joins all infidelities together and completely ignoring what makes them different is a failed enterprise if what you truly wish to accomplish is to have a better understanding. What we get a lot of here are attempts to reduce infidelity into simple statements or criteria and rather impossible claims.

 

Of course one has to be selfish to have an affair. It's not a major breakthrough in saying that someone who goes out to create an extramarital relationship is being selfish. Selfish goes with the terrain.

 

But to think that anyone can isolate "the capacity " for selfishness to EXPLAIN all infidelities is ridiculous. Most of us can be selfish in our daily lives, but never cross that line. Some people cross it, others do not. Why doesn't the selfish gene always present itself? When it does why does the selfish entitlement gene take 25 years to express itself in some, while others are having sex with a bridesmaid at the weeding rehearsal. What if, just what if the selfish gene is in all of us and is not the actual cause of infidelity but the gene required only to allow us to do it. What if the selfish gene is just there in all of us. Do we blame the penis, the vagina for wanting sex in a brothel rather than with someone who wants to actually make love to us?

 

Maybe it's just that people are acting more selfishly than normal when they engage in an affair. Which is it: the selfishness expresses itself in infidelity, or the infidelity is selfish.

 

20 years of marriage will allow anyone to see the difference in their partner.

[truncated]

Once a spouse makes a decision to cross a boundary, or let it down a little, for example in the workplace, every single action they take to continue and to shed other boundaries is all part of what we mean by moving into an affair. 1000s of steps, yes. Agreed.

 

 

So surely one view is that the decision to have an affair, after say 20 years of marriage, has at its beginning a faithful spouse who for reasons unbeknownst to perhaps even him/herself the conscious or unconscious decision to explore something new, outside of the marriage (After all those years)

 

To confuse character flaw (personality issue) with a decision made perhaps 20 years into married life and perhaps 30 years of being in relationships is quite clearly pushing common sense to its limits.

 

It's ludicrous to try to explain infidelity by taking as your proof a VOW made for the first time in one's life, to do something you haven't the faintest idea if you have the resources to do, only the intention to try, and to 25 years later say, "hey, you lied on the alter". You ARE a liar.

 

The lie, the lying began with the coworker s/he chose to explore after 15, 25 whatever years of living in a good Marriage.

 

It's time people who are able to get their heads around the horrible concept of serial cheats like BlackHat, to also get their heads around the concept of a sudden, late in the marriage infidelity which, once ended, processed and dealt with properly between two interested adults, has no specific reason to occur again. People get it, and move on.

 

Only looking for what joins all infidelities together and completely ignoring what makes them different is a failed enterprise if what you truly wish to accomplish is to have a better understanding. What we get a lot of here are attempts to reduce infidelity into simple statements or criteria and rather impossible claims.

 

Of course one has to be selfish to have an affair. It's not a major breakthrough in saying that someone who goes out to create an extramarital relationship is being selfish. Selfish goes with the terrain.

 

But to think that anyone can isolate "the capacity " for selfishness to EXPLAIN all infidelities is ridiculous. Most of us can be selfish in our daily lives, but never cross that line. Some people cross it, others do not. Why doesn't the selfish gene always present itself? When it does why does the selfish entitlement gene take 25 years to express itself in some, while others are having sex with a bridesmaid at the weeding rehearsal. What if, just what if the selfish gene is in all of us and is not the actual cause of infidelity but the gene required only to allow us to do it. What if the selfish gene is just there in all of us. Do we blame the penis, the vagina for wanting sex in a brothel rather than with someone who wants to actually make love to us?

 

Maybe it's just that people are acting more selfishly than normal when they engage in an affair. Which is it: the selfishness expresses itself in infidelity, or the infidelity is selfish.

 

20 years of marriage will allow anyone to see the difference in their partner.

 

 

The problem with this argument is that cheating is inherently as dishonest act.

If a person is doing so because of problems within the marriage, then they are using a very poor coping mechanism to deal with it, if they are cheating because of some unresolved issue within themselves, then again, they are making some poor choices.

 

If the affair happened so insidiously tht they never saw it coming before it was too late, again, there are definite issues going on within them.

 

If a person is having issues, there are others way of coping, such as talking to their spouse, divorcing, etc. there are people who live in bad marriages yet they don't cheat, which would indicate that there is something in the personality of someone who does.

 

blaming the marriage for their choices doesn't make any sense, and it really is hiding one's head in the sand. Even the post affair "success stories" on here written by other women indicate that there was a need for counseling for the mm post affair before they felt comfortable in the new relationship with them.

 

Think of it this way. we all have certain aspect of our personalities that can lead us to engage in some pretty negative behavior. In the case of someone who cheats, their personality has allowed them to do so and be okay with it ( or at least push aside any internal conflict they may be feeling about it) otherwise they wouldn't do it. It doesn't make them a horrible person, but unless they address whatever facet of their personality it was that allowed them to cheat and learn better behavior patterns, they are at risk of doing it again.

 

If I were a bs in that situation, i would always be nervous of them making poor choices again the next time things became a little rough in the marriage, which they can do. No marriage is 100% perfect, and a bs shouldn't have to live with the unspoken threat that the next time things get a little rough their spouse may choose to cheat again.

[goodyblue]

The problem with this argument is that cheating is inherently as dishonest act.

If a person is doing so because of problems within the marriage, then they are using a very poor coping mechanism to deal with it, if they are cheating because of some unresolved issue within themselves, then again, they are making some poor choices.

 

If the affair happened so insidiously tht they never saw it coming before it was too late, again, there are definite issues going on within them.

 

If a person is having issues, there are others way of coping, such as talking to their spouse, divorcing, etc. there are people who live in bad marriages yet they don't cheat, which would indicate that there is something in the personality of someone who does.

 

blaming the marriage for their choices doesn't make any sense, and it really is hiding one's head in the sand. Even the post affair "success stories" on here written by other women indicate that there was a need for counseling for the mm post affair before they felt comfortable in the new relationship with them.

 

Think of it this way. we all have certain aspect of our personalities that can lead us to engage in some pretty negative behavior. In the case of someone who cheats, their personality has allowed them to do so and be okay with it ( or at least push aside any internal conflict they may be feeling about it) otherwise they wouldn't do it. It doesn't make them a horrible person, but unless they address whatever facet of their personality it was that allowed them to cheat and learn better behavior patterns, they are at risk of doing it again.

 

If I were a bs in that situation, i would always be nervous of them making poor choices again the next time things became a little rough in the marriage, which they can do. No marriage is 100% perfect, and a bs shouldn't have to live with the unspoken threat that the next time things get a little rough their spouse may choose to cheat again.

 

I am going to say that the reason we went to therapy was not so that I was comfortable in the relationship. I do not, nor have I ever had trust issues, etc. with my guy. Mostly it was to explore why the affair happened, better coping skills, and to learn to move on from the guilt we felt about the affair.

 

I agree with some of the things you have said. I also want to say that while the affair was a poor coping mechanism, staying in a bad marriage and not cheating is not a noble thing to do, and it is just as damaging. It is bad for both partners and any children involved to live a life of martyrdom. The answer is to get out as soon as you can. Don't waste precious time. And if a bs is reconciling but won't be able to trust their partner, get out. It is not fair to anyone.

[fellini]

I think you fail to see the argument that I am discussing. In two years I have never ever said or hinted at "blaming the marriage". Not me.

 

 

But let's take your example.

 

Given: we all have personality traits that can allow us to engage in some negative behaviour. Agreed (although I disgree with you suggestion that we do things for negative interests - I believe that people choose to do things for positive reasons for themselves all the while knowing or anticipating that it will have negative consequences in other contexts (what others think, a marriage, parents, against social acceptability etc)

 

You then go onto claim that it is the personality trait that allows them to cheat? But which trait? What allows people to cheat, as everyone here knows, is to make the decision to cheat. We all have the capacity to make bad decisions, I believe you recognise this. When an opportunity to cheat presents itself, one MUST decide what to do. It is the decision to ignore every fibre and every moral certainty that one has held at this point to move forward. This is not the same thing as a personality trait. Surely if you want to point a finger at something it is completely the decision, not the personality trait (being outgoing, flirtatious, touchy with people, etc) changing these behaviours is NOT the solution: the only solution is to change decision making. And we must all have that regardless of how we use it. You cannot remove that trait in anyone.

 

 

The problem with this argument is that cheating is inherently as dishonest act.

If a person is doing so because of problems within the marriage, then they are using a very poor coping mechanism to deal with it, if they are cheating because of some unresolved issue within themselves, then again, they are making some poor choices.

 

If the affair happened so insidiously tht they never saw it coming before it was too late, again, there are definite issues going on within them.

 

If a person is having issues, there are others way of coping, such as talking to their spouse, divorcing, etc. there are people who live in bad marriages yet they don't cheat, which would indicate that there is something in the personality of someone who does.

 

blaming the marriage for their choices doesn't make any sense, and it really is hiding one's head in the sand. Even the post affair "success stories" on here written by other women indicate that there was a need for counseling for the mm post affair before they felt comfortable in the new relationship with them.

 

Think of it this way. we all have certain aspect of our personalities that can lead us to engage in some pretty negative behavior. In the case of someone who cheats, their personality has allowed them to do so and be okay with it ( or at least push aside any internal conflict they may be feeling about it) otherwise they wouldn't do it. It doesn't make them a horrible person, but unless they address whatever facet of their personality it was that allowed them to cheat and learn better behavior patterns, they are at risk of doing it again.

 

If I were a bs in that situation, i would always be nervous of them making poor choices again the next time things became a little rough in the marriage, which they can do. No marriage is 100% perfect, and a bs shouldn't have to live with the unspoken threat that the next time things get a little rough their spouse may choose to cheat again.

[Hope Shimmers]

Fellini, you are splitting hairs.

 

I get the feeling that you are reaching for absolutely anything that you can find that will make it palatable to you that she did this.

 

The bottom line is that you were in the same marriage, yet she chose to cheat and you didn't. Why???

 

And what can make you so certain it won't happen again?

[autumnnight]

PS: And that starts in childhood with the inability to express needs because no one taught you how to; lying and hiding because truth-telling resulted in harsh discipline; being made to feel less than and culminating with no one able to fulfill the void of need within you.

 

way before he ever met and fell in love with you.

 

Love him. Forgive him. Force him to go to counseling as a condition of reconciliation.

 

or live with the fact that these deep-seated flaws will ALWAYS make him vulnerable to the attention of strangers....no matter how much he may truly LOVE you.

 

This is the most offensive thing I have read in awhile. Cheaters are dysfunctional children who will always be damaged? It is time for a really long LS break. Liek serial killers with some predictable "triad of evil behavior" or something.

 

Wow, y'all must REALLY need to hate someone out there. I'm done.

 

Oh, and if you're married, don't be calling me "darling"

[autumnnight]

BTW, I have NEVER said that an A is justifiable. I have been VERY clear that an A is wrong, is the responsibility of the cheater, and that WHILE THEY ARE cheating, a WS is really really messed up. I just don't believe this "bad from the womb to the tomb" BS crap.

[Hope Shimmers]

All of this makes me wonder why I stayed in a crappy abusive 15+ year marriage and didn't step out on him, despite lots of opportunity. Instead I acted like the happy wife. Anyone, including him, would have pegged me as happy. If there are all these forgivable justifications for having an A then I should have just done it.

[goodyblue]

All of this makes me wonder why I stayed in a crappy abusive 15+ year marriage and didn't step out on him, despite lots of opportunity. Instead I acted like the happy wife. Anyone, including him, would have pegged me as happy. If there are all these forgivable justifications for having an A then I should have just done it.

 

Most BS would say that you having an affair with a MM, whether you were married or not,makes you just as bad as WS by helping him cheat.

[Hope Shimmers]

Most BS would say that you having an affair with a MM, whether you were married or not,makes you just as bad as WS by helping him cheat.

 

Yes, that's why I'm here.

 

I didn't cheat on a spouse. But yes, as you point out, I'm a horrible evil person because I'm a cheater. I might as well have just done all of it.

[goodyblue]

Yes, that's why I'm here.

 

I didn't cheat on a spouse. But yes, as you point out, I'm a horrible evil person because I'm a cheater. I might as well have just done all of it.

 

I don't have those feelings toward you at all, Hope. If you are having those feelings, you need to be kinder to yourself.

[autumnnight]

If there are all these forgivable justifications for having an A th

 

Name ONE person on this thread who has said an A is justified. One.

 

People read what they want to read.

 

And yeah, being an AP IS part of the cheating.

[Hope Shimmers]

Name ONE person on this thread who has said an A is justified. One.

 

People read what they want to read.

 

And yeah, being an AP IS part of the cheating.

 

I never denied that being an AP is part of the cheating. Not once.

 

I am not sure why you have spent the last 12 or so hours attacking me. I didn't do anything to you.

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't have those feelings toward you at all, Hope. If you are having those feelings, you need to be kinder to yourself.

 

Having a bad day. Sorry

[goodyblue]

All of this makes me wonder why I stayed in a crappy abusive 15+ year marriage and didn't step out on him, despite lots of opportunity. Instead I acted like the happy wife. Anyone, including him, would have pegged me as happy. If there are all these forgivable justifications for having an A then I should have just done it.

 

I will also say that in all things there must be forgiveness. If not, we can't move forward.. We need to forgive one another, and we need to forgive ourselves. It doesn't do any good to have guilt your whole life. Don't mistake me, I believe guilt has it's place, but if it is not helping to change things or make things better or productive in our lives, it is a waste to feel that way. It eats at our soul.

[Hardgrind]

As the OP I want to thank everyone for the often spirited discussion. It has given me much food for thought.

 

My WW's A caused me great pain and distress. After explaining to her how badly this hurt me she minimized the pain it caused me, suggested I was overstating my distress, started hiding her activities more effectively, but what she didn't do was leave the marriage on her own or stop the affair.

 

To me the scariest possibility is that she truly understands what she did and its impact on me, but is too self centered to care, show remorse and make amends.

 

It would be easier to accept that the woman I loved and was married to for ten years has a personality disorder or condition that prevented her from understanding the pain she caused.

[autumnnight]

I never denied that being an AP is part of the cheating. Not once.

 

I am not sure why you have spent the last 12 or so hours attacking me. I didn't do anything to you.

 

I'm sorry. I'm really not attacking you. believe me, you are far from the only person on the internet who thinks cheaters become cheaters in utero and spend their lives waiting for people to destroy and should be euthanized to protect the public.

 

Okay, that was facetious. But to say people can be redeemed and renewed from all sorts of other things and then to say that cheating means someone's childhood was flawed, their growng up was dysfunctional, they had the "seeds of infidelity" while learning to read, and no matter how much they seem to change after an A they are secretly waiting for their next victim to consume is just ridiculous.

 

I know some BS' whose identity is defined by their spouse cheating really NEED to see all WS' as some other life form.

 

But it just ain't so. There is no "disease" called cheating that is incurable. There are serial cheaters who should be avoided like the plague. AND there ARE good, decent people who make a series of horrific choices for whatever very poor reasons, who own their crap, who do the work, who have remorse, and they STOP BEING FLAWED in that way.

 

Redemotion exists. Period.

[Hope Shimmers]

I'm sorry. I'm really not attacking you. believe me, you are far from the only person on the internet who thinks cheaters become cheaters in utero and spend their lives waiting for people to destroy and should be euthanized to protect the public.

 

Okay, that was facetious. But to say people can be redeemed and renewed from all sorts of other things and then to say that cheating means someone's childhood was flawed, their growng up was dysfunctional, they had the "seeds of infidelity" while learning to read, and no matter how much they seem to change after an A they are secretly waiting for their next victim to consume is just ridiculous.

 

I know some BS' whose identity is defined by their spouse cheating really NEED to see all WS' as some other life form.

 

But it just ain't so. There is no "disease" called cheating that is incurable. There are serial cheaters who should be avoided like the plague. AND there ARE good, decent people who make a series of horrific choices for whatever very poor reasons, who own their crap, who do the work, who have remorse, and they STOP BEING FLAWED in that way.

 

Redemotion exists. Period.

 

I NEVER said that cheaters become cheaters in utero. I have no idea where you got that.

 

You know, the hardest thing about being an ex-OW on this site is that this is all I ever am here. I don't have a WS here believing in me, forgiving me, defending, like all of you are doing. It's just me and constantly being this cheater that never changes. It sucks. There is NO redemption for people like me.

[goodyblue]

I'm sorry. I'm really not attacking you. believe me, you are far from the only person on the internet who thinks cheaters become cheaters in utero and spend their lives waiting for people to destroy and should be euthanized to protect the public.

 

Okay, that was facetious. But to say people can be redeemed and renewed from all sorts of other things and then to say that cheating means someone's childhood was flawed, their growng up was dysfunctional, they had the "seeds of infidelity" while learning to read, and no matter how much they seem to change after an A they are secretly waiting for their next victim to consume is just ridiculous.

 

I know some BS' whose identity is defined by their spouse cheating really NEED to see all WS' as some other life form.

 

But it just ain't so. There is no "disease" called cheating that is incurable. There are serial cheaters who should be avoided like the plague. AND there ARE good, decent people who make a series of horrific choices for whatever very poor reasons, who own their crap, who do the work, who have remorse, and they STOP BEING FLAWED in that way.

 

Redemotion exists. Period.

 

I am in complete agreement. The part I don't understand is a BS (general) will say that and then stay with their WS... it makes zero sense.

 

I believe in forgiveness. And I believe in redemption. If we never bettered ourselves we would have no reason to try at all

[Furious]

I NEVER said that cheaters become cheaters in utero. I have no idea where you got that.

 

You know, the hardest thing about being an ex-OW on this site is that this is all I ever am here. I don't have a WS here believing in me, forgiving me, defending, like all of you are doing. It's just me and constantly being this cheater that never changes. It sucks. There is NO redemption for people like me.

 

Hope Shimmers

 

I see you as an intelligent, beautiful, loving woman. If that's you in the avatar, you're gorgeous inside and out.

 

You're fair, you're kind, you're a lovely woman.

 

You are a great example for many here.

 

Hugs.