Character Flaw in WS?

[VeryBrokenMan]

I NEVER said that cheaters become cheaters in utero. I have no idea where you got that.

 

You know, the hardest thing about being an ex-OW on this site is that this is all I ever am here. I don't have a WS here believing in me, forgiving me, defending, like all of you are doing. It's just me and constantly being this cheater that never changes. It sucks. There is NO redemption for people like me.

 

Hope, the fact that you are here helping people that have been on the other side speaks volumes about you. You are a good person and your heart is in the right place. Give yourself a break, you were a cheater but I can't believe that you will be one in the future knowing what you know.

[Hope Shimmers]

Hope Shimmers

 

I see you as an intelligent, beautiful, loving woman. If that's you in the avatar, you're gorgeous inside and out.

 

You're fair, you're kind, you're a lovely woman.

 

You are a great example for many here.

 

Hugs.

 

Thank you Furious. Bad day - I'll stop whining now...

 

Hardgrind - has your wife stopped her affair yet?

[Furious]

Thank you Furious. Bad day - I'll stop whining now...

 

Hardgrind - has your wife stopped her affair yet?

 

Just know that you're admired and respected here. Hope your day gets better.

[Red123]

I NEVER said that cheaters become cheaters in utero. I have no idea where you got that.

 

You know, the hardest thing about being an ex-OW on this site is that this is all I ever am here. I don't have a WS here believing in me, forgiving me, defending, like all of you are doing. It's just me and constantly being this cheater that never changes. It sucks. There is NO redemption for people like me.

 

It sucks you feel that way. There is redemption for anyone willing to look for it genuinely. I am one of those people who believe people make mistakes and can change if they want to. I also believe that although there seems to be similarities in a lot of affairs, they are all different, and each situation is different. As a BS, I have thoughts and feelings about the MOW in my situation that don't apply to all women in affairs, just her. I think when we get down we see the bad in our lives so much more. I don't even know you, but from what you have written here you left the affair(that wasn't always an affair) in the past. I would say that's being on the path to redemption for yourself.

[ladydesigner]

PS: And that starts in childhood with the inability to express needs because no one taught you how to; lying and hiding because truth-telling resulted in harsh discipline; being made to feel less than and culminating with no one able to fulfill the void of need within you.

 

way before he ever met and fell in love with you.

 

Love him. Forgive him. Force him to go to counseling as a condition of reconciliation.

 

or live with the fact that these deep-seated flaws will ALWAYS make him vulnerable to the attention of strangers....no matter how much he may truly LOVE you.

 

The bold may not be true in every case but it is so true in mine. My WH's childhood was very abusive. His mother physically, mentally and verbally abused him and his sister. He has learned to lie, hide his emotions well, and has a very hard time showing empathy. He has ALWAYS needed validation.

 

I did not see any of this until after our first child, that's when I started to notice that something was amiss. Looking back now I can see he was always selfish, didn't have empathy in certain situations, it has always been 'all about him', emotionally immature, not responsible at times, and very judgemental and critical of others.

 

My WH is a repeat cheater so in my case his flaws allowed him to do the same thing again and can also happen in the future.

[ladydesigner]

I NEVER said that cheaters become cheaters in utero. I have no idea where you got that.

 

You know, the hardest thing about being an ex-OW on this site is that this is all I ever am here. I don't have a WS here believing in me, forgiving me, defending, like all of you are doing. It's just me and constantly being this cheater that never changes. It sucks. There is NO redemption for people like me.

 

You are helping others here! There is sooooo much redemption in that!

[truncated]

I'm sorry. I'm really not attacking you. believe me, you are far from the only person on the internet who thinks cheaters become cheaters in utero and spend their lives waiting for people to destroy and should be euthanized to protect the public.

 

Okay, that was facetious. But to say people can be redeemed and renewed from all sorts of other things and then to say that cheating means someone's childhood was flawed, their growng up was dysfunctional, they had the "seeds of infidelity" while learning to read, and no matter how much they seem to change after an A they are secretly waiting for their next victim to consume is just ridiculous.

 

I know some BS' whose identity is defined by their spouse cheating really NEED to see all WS' as some other life form.

 

But it just ain't so. There is no "disease" called cheating that is incurable. There are serial cheaters who should be avoided like the plague. AND there ARE good, decent people who make a series of horrific choices for whatever very poor reasons, who own their crap, who do the work, who have remorse, and they STOP BEING FLAWED in that way.

 

Redemotion exists. Period.

 

maybe the problem is semantics, and the term "personality flaws" is the issue..it makes it sound like someone is talking about personality disorders, which are very different, deep rooted and difficult to change

 

the thing is that there is something in these people that allowed them to make these choices.

 

If there wasn't something in their personality, then why do they need to do all the work, to own their crap and stop being flawed?

 

we all have flaws, we are all products of our environment and the things we learned and saw as children, and can engage in some pretty crappy behaviors, and yes, we can all change.

 

Why is it that under similar circumstances, one will cheat one will divorce and yet another will stay and try to work it out?

[autumnnight]

Hope Shimmers

 

I see you as an intelligent, beautiful, loving woman. If that's you in the avatar, you're gorgeous inside and out.

 

You're fair, you're kind, you're a lovely woman.

 

You are a great example for many here.

 

Hugs.

 

Actually, I completely agree. So if a former OW can change and be considered woderful person......WHY can't a FWS??????

[VeryBrokenMan]

Actually, I completely agree. So if a former OW can change and be considered woderful person......WHY can't a FWS??????

 

The obvious answer is someone else's FWW or the OW can reform but not your own WW in many cases. Although I'm sure there are those here that think no WW can ever reform and can EVER be a good person again. I think everyone is able to redeem themselves through consistent action but the victim has to allow that to happen. And many times the BS does not want to give up being the victim.

[Furious]

Actually, I completely agree. So if a former OW can change and be considered woderful person......WHY can't a FWS??????

 

 

I've never said a fws cannot change of grow in a positive way. I don't get how you come to this assumption. I really don't get your fire and brimstone comments such as "evil incarnate" and 'bad from the womb to the tomb". You're saying things and insinuating quite a bit that not one poster said on this thread.

 

Dialogue is good but you seem very angry and judgemental.

[Seachan]

darling...the choice to have an affair is the journey of a thousand steps, which, at any point, you could have informed your spouse: either of your needs, the new secretary, that new work, gym, neighbor friend, the flirt getting out of hand, the texts, the sexts, the hotel room after dinner.

 

There are 1,000 opportunities to inform your spouse that you are sliding down THAT slippery slope, you need help, it's getting out of hand, you are losing control....and yet you say NOTHING. You keep it all secret.....because....WHY?

 

Most people could NOT do this secret keeping without sweating, anxiety, guilt, a total shut down or change of course. COULd not do it.

 

BUT the cheater says:

 

I need this.

 

I deserve this.

 

It makes me feel so good.

 

I feel more alive.....and then, in time,

 

My spouse doesn't understand me.

 

My spouse doesn't desire me enough.

 

My spouse is bored with me or bores me.

 

What my spouse doesn't know, can't hurt them.

 

No one will find out. I am in control of this......

 

And so on.

 

it's a cliche. Ask any psych, counselor, MC.

 

All affairs are the same. They follow the sam rhythms, time lime, cognitive dissonance.

 

No one is evil....just vulnerable, unstable, and flawed in that they can so easily talk themselves out of reality to justify and validate self-destructive ego needs.

 

Wow, Spark. This scenario you've outlined makes it clear how easy it would be to cheat. I wonder if "good people who happen to cheat" are those who never envisioned themselves as cheaters and found themselves in the situation without even thinking about it.

 

And then afterwards, continue with the A because WTH they've already violated their marriage. If you've already sinned and are going to hell anyway, might as well have a little more fun while you're at it. After awhile, it becomes habit to deceive the spouse and now you're looking at a long term affair....

 

That's why the road to redemption is long and arduous. Requiring more discipline, willpower, and self-examination then never cheating to begin with. Maybe this is why "once a cheater, always a cheater" is the more common experience. Because if the cheater couldn't control the impulse to have an A and lie about it, then how could s/he possibly summon the strength of character to "fix" him/herself. And where was that strength of character before the cheating occurred?

[autumnnight]

Wow, Spark. This scenario you've outlined makes it clear how easy it would be to cheat. I wonder if "good people who happen to cheat" are those who never envisioned themselves as cheaters and found themselves in the situation without even thinking about it.

 

And then afterwards, continue with the A because WTH they've already violated their marriage. If you've already sinned and are going to hell anyway, might as well have a little more fun while you're at it. After awhile, it becomes habit to deceive the spouse and now you're looking at a long term affair....

 

That's why the road to redemption is long and arduous. Requiring more discipline, willpower, and self-examination then never cheating to begin with. Maybe this is why "once a cheater, always a cheater" is the more common experience. Because if the cheater couldn't control the impulse to have an A and lie about it, then how could s/he possibly summon the strength of character to "fix" him/herself. And where was that strength of character before the cheating occurred?

 

Furious, THIS is where I get those ideas. Posts like this. Anyone with perceptive ability can hear the sarcasm and disdain. No such thing as redemption.

[Seachan]

Furious, THIS is where I get those ideas. Posts like this. Anyone with perceptive ability can hear the sarcasm and disdain. No such thing as redemption.

 

Sorry you see it that way, autumn. Not trying to be disdainful or sarcastic in the slightest. Just drawing from the painful experience of my own childhood in which my WS mother bruised and battered my BS father with her infidelity even to the point of him raising a son apparently fathered by OM - all while appearing to the world as a devoted wife and mother.

 

She recounted to me more times than I could stomach how she longed for OM until she died. No wonder my father raged and triggered. Now that I'm reading infidelity forums, I finally understand his anguish and how determined he was to do the best he could for us kids - and for his WW.

 

As for her, no. No redemption or even attempt at doing so.

[goodyblue]

Wow, Spark. This scenario you've outlined makes it clear how easy it would be to cheat. I wonder if "good people who happen to cheat" are those who never envisioned themselves as cheaters and found themselves in the situation without even thinking about it.

 

And then afterwards, continue with the A because WTH they've already violated their marriage. If you've already sinned and are going to hell anyway, might as well have a little more fun while you're at it. After awhile, it becomes habit to deceive the spouse and now you're looking at a long term affair....

 

That's why the road to redemption is long and arduous. Requiring more discipline, willpower, and self-examination then never cheating to begin with. Maybe this is why "once a cheater, always a cheater" is the more common experience. Because if the cheater couldn't control the impulse to have an A and lie about it, then how could s/he possibly summon the strength of character to "fix" him/herself. And where was that strength of character before the cheating occurred?

 

Once a cheater always a cheater is the more common experience? Not from what I see. These broad generalizations are the problem. People cheat for a plethora of reasons. Sometimes they are serial cheaters, sometimes they just lose control. Sometimes it is calculated. Sometimes it is just extra.on the side, sometimes it is loneliness.

 

People do strange things when they are lonely, ignored, emotionally weak, conflict avoiders or any number of reasons that someone may go outside the marriage.

 

I don't know about anyone else's situation but my own and my guy struggled with many things. He knows what he did was wrong, and he knew the whole time. Sometimes the human connection that is lacking is so awful that people are willing to risk anything to have it. It is having no way out except to ruin everyone else's lives in order to save your own and y ou don't want to do that. So you sneak. You try to get a little bit of affection and caring from somewhere else without blowing up the family. Yeah, it is the wrong way to go about it, but that was still the root of it for my guy. When his ex found out he was relieved. And he left. And everything he was worried about happening with the family, did. And would have if he had left without the affair.

 

Please don't pretend you can just paint all affairs with a broad sweep of the brush. It is not fair and is also naive.

 

I am sorry about your parents. Your father was stupid to stay and your mother obviously pined for her AP and should have left to be with him, to be happy and to allow your father the opportunity to find a more compatible partner.

[fellini]

This post just confirmed autumn's point exactly as you lay it out. You are drawing from your own painful experience.

 

But you disastrous mother is not here, nor your childhood. What is here are other people in pain. And I agree with autumn, this business of drawing on ones experience and projecting it where it is not even remotely close to being parallel is what happens in LS all the time.

 

After a while it becomes quite clear that there are people who are not here to share their personal view, but to INSIST that everyone accept an impoverished view of cheaters.

 

BS'S who never even tried to reconcile telling those who are well into R how wrong they are.

BS's making outragious claims about other people's WS, about their future.

The constant denial that there are nuances in infidelity stories.

 

And then there are those that shoot down any poster who sees things differently than the prevailing diatribe of cheaters as broken and unfixable people and rather than dealing with the ideas expressed as they are stated, resort to undermining the poster by making sweeping accusations about their inability to truly understand their own WS and their own experiences.

 

Because it's impossible to imagine a BS wanting to reconcile with a WS, there must be something wrong with the BS. Just like there must be something fundamentally broken in the WS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry you see it that way, autumn. Not trying to be disdainful or sarcastic in the slightest. Just drawing from the painful experience of my own childhood in which my WS mother bruised and battered my BS father with her infidelity even to the point of him raising a son apparently fathered by OM - all while appearing to the world as a devoted wife and mother.

 

She recounted to me more times than I could stomach how she longed for OM until she died. No wonder my father raged and triggered. Now that I'm reading infidelity forums, I finally understand his anguish and how determined he was to do the best he could for us kids - and for his WW.

 

As for her, no. No redemption or even attempt at doing so.

[ladydesigner]

Because it's impossible to imagine a BS wanting to reconcile with a WS, there must be something wrong with the BS. Just like there must be something fundamentally broken in the WS.

 

Yeah you can say that again:p I often feel there must be something fundamentally wrong with me to stay with my WS after multiple Ddays and False R and maybe there is.

[goodyblue]

Yeah you can say that again:p I often feel there must be something fundamentally wrong with me to stay with my WS after multiple Ddays and False R and maybe there is.

 

You shouldn't stay. You deserve better.

[AlwaysGrowing]

Now....my thoughts on how many of us are affair "time bombs", will go against what many believe about themselves.

 

I believe that there are many more of us with that potential than not.

 

The main reason????

 

Is that the vast majority of affairs are affairs that happen in isolation, to how the persons have behaved in the past.

 

The main reason/s for that?

 

The "perfect storm", of events have not occurred......yet.

 

If we take serial cheaters out of the mix, most involved in affairs would have bet everything they owned that they would not become one of "those" people. Most have never been "tested" prior to the affair. It is just not being "ripe" yourself....it is having another "ripe" person in your inner circle. One can be "ripe" for a period of time, then work out what is not working in their life...and be "spoiled" for an affair. So that, even if they encounter a "ripe" affair partner...they are not.

 

For most of us...our own ego...will not let us see ourselves...as we are. We...just don't recognize our faulty wiring/thought processes. Our poor coping skills work just fine....until they don't.

 

It is in the "until they don't"' that we need to put our focus. It is there..that we might recognize how we told "lies" to our spouse/ourself. How we let resentments build, without giving the other party a voice. How some became PA, or conflict avoidant. How we turned conflict (opposing points)...into "FIGHTS". How we never did really "let go" of something.

 

For many, it is learned behaviours/flaws...that were set up in childhood (very few are immune). It is hard to recognize...as it was always there. It is WHO we have always been. So...it feels natural to us. We use those poor coping skills/flaws and it never registers to us as being outside the norm...because it is INSIDE us.

[cocorico]

You only know what went on between them from what he told you, just as she only knew anything about him from what he chose to let her see. Therefore, without corroboration, your 'report' and assessment of their relationship is unreliable.

 

(Bolded) actually not. I had several sources of different kinds,my one of which was him. What I based this post on was her own writing - initially in letters she wrote to him when she was M to her first H, planning to slip away to meet up with him, and latterly from emails she sent him after he left her.

 

I can't comment on what he "chose to let her see", as he's very much an open book (as all his colleagues remark) and so I cannot imagine him being able to withhold anything. More likely she simply chose to see what she wanted to see, and ignored what she didn't.

[cocorico]

 

But MOST people could not lie daily to the face of someone who loved and trusted them. COULD not do it. COULD not hide it with underground, pre-paid cell phones, hidden texts, sexts and emails, falsified bank statements...hotel rooms, secret dinners....COULD not do it.

 

While a few people in As may do all that, and thus qualify for your "character flaw" category, it is by no means all, and probably not even most, WS who do this. Many simply don't disclose - which, while that might be "lying by omission" is far from "lying daily to the face etc etc". And the question of whether *all* WS consider the BS to be "someone who loves and trusts them" during the period of the A is also moot - many WS report feeling estranged from, or even hostile toward, the BS during the A (for whatever reason) and thus do not see the BS as someone on their side, who lives and trusts them.

 

As for hidden phones, falsified bank statements, etc - I'm sorry if your WS went to those kind of lengths actively to deceive you. My H didn't, nor did many of he other WS I've come across on LS or IRL.

 

I'm sorry if you married someone with a "character flaw". I didn't, and I'm sorry that your need not to feel signed out for such crappy treatment obliges you to paint all WS as just as damaged as it seems your H is, but really, it simply doesn't apply in many (perhaps even most) cases.

[goodyblue]

While a few people in As may do all that, and thus qualify for your "character flaw" category, it is by no means all, and probably not even most, WS who do this. Many simply don't disclose - which, while that might be "lying by omission" is far from "lying daily to the face etc etc". And the question of whether *all* WS consider the BS to be "someone who loves and trusts them" during the period of the A is also moot - many WS report feeling estranged from, or even hostile toward, the BS during the A (for whatever reason) and thus do not see the BS as someone on their side, who lives and trusts them.

 

As for hidden phones, falsified bank statements, etc - I'm sorry if your WS went to those kind of lengths actively to deceive you. My H didn't, nor did many of he other WS I've come across on LS or IRL.

 

I'm sorry if you married someone with a "character flaw". I didn't, and I'm sorry that your need not to feel signed out for such crappy treatment obliges you to paint all WS as just as damaged as it seems your H is, but really, it simply doesn't apply in many (perhaps even most) cases.

 

This whole 'damaged' thing ... the whole 'character flaw' issue bugs me too. My guy is the most sane, whole, decent person I know. He is a very good person. I couldn't ask for someone to treat me better, or be kinder to the kids.

[cocorico]

(Bolded) actually not. I had several sources of different kinds,my one of which was him. What I based this post on was her own writing - initially in letters she wrote to him when she was M to her first H, planning to slip away to meet up with him, and latterly from emails she sent him after he left her.

 

I can't comment on what he "chose to let her see", as he's very much an open book (as all his colleagues remark) and so I cannot imagine him being able to withhold anything. More likely she simply chose to see what she wanted to see, and ignored what she didn't.

 

apologies - missed the typo. It should read, "none of which was him".

[gettingstronger]

I found this as one of many definitions of character flaw

 

"a character flaw is a limitation, imperfection, problem, phobia, or deficiency present in a character who may be otherwise very functional. The flaw can be a problem that directly affects the character's actions and abilities, such as a violent temper. Alternatively, it can be a simple foible or personality defect, which affects the character's motives and social interactions, but little else."

 

 

No place does it say this is a horrible person that is doomed- to me, it reflects how I see my husband and his decision to cheat-he feels his cheating revealed a flaw in his character and so do I- how everyone else chooses to define it is just a matter of semantics-

 

I don't think he is horrible and incapable of redemption- I do believe he behaved horribly and revealed something about his character I never knew existed- it will always be a part of him, a part of us- and its unfortunate-

[goodyblue]

I found this as one of many definitions of character flaw

 

"a character flaw is a limitation, imperfection, problem, phobia, or deficiency present in a character who may be otherwise very functional. The flaw can be a problem that directly affects the character's actions and abilities, such as a violent temper. Alternatively, it can be a simple foible or personality defect, which affects the character's motives and social interactions, but little else."

 

 

No place does it say this is a horrible person that is doomed- to me, it reflects how I see my husband and his decision to cheat-he feels his cheating revealed a flaw in his character and so do I- how everyone else chooses to define it is just a matter of semantics-

 

I don't think he is horrible and incapable of redemption- I do believe he behaved horribly and revealed something about his character I never knew existed- it will always be a part of him, a part of us- and its unfortunate-

 

Well, my opinion is that if it will always be part of him in your eyes, he still has that flaw, has not redeemed himself. If he had worked on it, become better, learned from it, you would have moved on and no longer be plagued by it. Unless I am misunderstanding.

[gettingstronger]

Well, my opinion is that if it will always be part of him in your eyes, he still has that flaw, has not redeemed himself. If he had worked on it, become better, learned from it, you would have moved on and no longer be plagued by it. Unless I am misunderstanding.

 

 

Yes, in both of our eyes he will always be someone that had the capability to do what he did-thats a part of him- our hope is that he has learned better coping skills and an appreciation for what we have-to gain power from the positives in our lives rather than the ego boost of an affair-

 

I think its harder for him to accept that in himself than it is for me to accept that about him-

 

I may be going really far OT here-but I have found that immediately following dday, I was the big old mess, 2 years out-he is far more damaged personally by his actions than I am- coming to terms with his "flaws" has been brutal on him- he comes from a long line of cheaters, he knew he had the poor coping skills of his parents in him but thought he had a handle on it, obviously he did not and it wrecks him-

 

Maybe its too complicated to totally explain, but thats how it is for us-

 

I accept his flaws- I do not accept the actions he took- we are working on it-wish us luck-