New member; 25 and never had a gf

[Vegeta2]

Whats this about vibes? Do you honestly think I approach women using canned crap from Pua snake oil salesmen?

I only approach when I feel there is something of interest to be said or I am able to have a relatively smooth conversation. It's not like I walk up to a girl and say " hey your hot, wanna go out".

 

It's only natural to be bothered by being 25 and never experienced love or sex from a woman. Very few guys I met would disagree. Hell I remember once when I was 17 and I admitted to someone I never had a girlfriend. They looked shocked and kept asking very personal questions. The truth is if you have reached my age and never obtained a women's affections, chances are you never will.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Whats this about vibes? Do you honestly think I approach women using canned crap from Pua snake oil salesmen?

I only approach when I feel there is something of interest to be said or I am able to have a relatively smooth conversation. It's not like I walk up to a girl and say " hey your hot, wanna go out".

 

It's only natural to be bothered by being 25 and never experienced love or sex from a woman. Very few guys I met would disagree. Hell I remember once when I was 17 and I admitted to someone I never had a girlfriend. They looked shocked and kept asking very personal questions. The truth is if you have reached my age and never obtained a women's affections, chances are you never will.

 

If I were you, and I WAS YOU more or less, I would try and get the monkey off my back.

 

Despite what people say, the world of dating is absolutely dominated by physical looks. Race, height, and face for men and body type, face, and race for women. If you can look past that, then you can really make some golden experiences out of your life, despite the fact that you might be playing the game short-handed.

 

In other words, I would try and look past looks for your first and who knows, she might be really nice and really fun.

 

After that, you have the monkey off your back and you can kind of settle into enjoying your life without women like Gravity Man suggested.

Edited April 26, 2015 by JuneJulySeptember

[calvincline47]

Hello I am a 25 year old Incel(google the term). I have virtually no experience with women, except for a very brief relationship when I was 19.

I was extremely withdrawn as a teenager, but pretty much broke out of my shell at age 19. I began working out religously and approaching people in general, as well as being as open as I can with women. despite this I was constantly rejected, by my own estimate at least 175 times. Thing is at the moment I am not shy whatsoever, but I really lack any motivation to approach women, due to all the rejection I recieved.

 

A little side note, I am Arab American and live in a city in Michigan that is mostly Arab( not by my choice). The fact that I am of Arab descent has virtually nothing to do with my rejections from women, as nearly all my rejections came from Arab women. Arab women, interestingly enough are rarely the sexual prudes they are stereotyped to be. The seek high status men and men with fat wallets, both categories I do not fall in.

 

I believe my major flaw is my looks. One girl who rejected me told me I was a wonderful friend but hideous. I appreciated her honesty and till this day she is still my friend. I am curious to see if there are any other male members in the same shoes as myself

 

Your problem is most likely your looks and/or height.

 

Many women will tell you that it's things like your confidence, attitude, etc. but they are not being honest with you.

 

My advice would be to simply forget about women and go about your life in the way that you want. Do not completely change yourself just to become attractive to women, like most sources will tell you to do.

 

For the record, this is coming from a guy that previously did all of these things and has reasonable success with women. I'm a good-looking guy and have confidence that I'm able to get any woman that I want (some with more effort than others). However, I've decided that it's just too much work and not worth the effort. YMMV.

[Vegeta2]

Thank you for your advice. And yes I gave up in 2012 at age 23

[ascendotum]

This really is unfortunate in my opinion but lots of it rings true I guess fact is being nice counts for NOTHING, having manners counts for NOTHING, NO, the only things that count for anything of looks, money and social standing.

 

If in life the best you can do is average and your go for mediocre then to me its not worth having at all.

 

Clearly you have had super luck with females to post such a condescending post.

 

 

For plenty of girls in their 20s being nice and having good manners are positive things that they will appreciate in their relationship, but its not enough to create attraction. For plenty of other women in their 20s they don't care about those things at all. Its irrelevant when it comes to chemistry, lust, status & masculinity. but in their mid 30s on though they will start to want it. The OP is trying to date women in their early to mid 20s. Many people are superficial and out for social validation then. There are also quite a few sweet insecure cute girls who just want a keen & decent regular bf and will tend to say yes to the first guy that asks them, but they tend to get snapped up quick. Pretty girls get noticed by all guys - dorks to alphas and there is a lot of competition even if many guys are not interested in anything long term with her.

 

I suspect with you, not just any girl with nice & has good manners will do?

You likely will want to find her attractive & feminine. The thing is though, a lot of the nice guy characteristics which wont really appeal or even turn off many young women, don't have the same effect for guys. Being sweet, thoughtful, low confidence, insecure, willing to please, good manners, quieter nature, not having vibrant social life, not being a jokester, not being sort after by lots of others, not having past wild adventurous sex life, wont be a big deal for many guys, especially the struggling guys. The guys who struggled were generally shooting for average looking girls like this, and not a sassy Tania Raymonde look alike (as much as they would have loved to).

 

The hookup market and the large % of over weight people distorts the dating market. A plain looking insecure slim long haired girl will have plenty of options, and wont have to go out with a plain looking insecure thin guy. Lots of women want to date up and to have the guy make their life more exciting. Unfortunately if you are average looking guy and dont have an outgoing nature and live a average life in the suburbs then you kind of have to expect an average looking & lifestyle gf. You hope though that you still find her attractive and better then average in your eyes and vice versa.

 

My post was not meant to be condescending. It was triggered by someone else inferring that the guys who are long time single its because they are holding out for a hottie. Most of the struggling guys I knew (I struggled too) I didn't think they were (after early 20s anyway). It was a combination of looks and personality. They did not have out going personality, some could be labelled as boring, some were a little too intense personality. wise. Saying they had mediocre personality was harsh and from a friend perspective they were ok cool guys, but from a creating attraction with women out at a bar perspective they struggled to keep them engaged. For struggling guys it sucks that they get told to overhaul your personality, change body language, learn game & better small talk conversation skills, get more confident, workout out at gym, build successful career, where as for women its pretty much 'don't get fat', but that's the way it is. Being incel for too long will erode your confidence (so does getting rejected) maybe make you more desperate with the ones you like, and will kill opportunities with many women if it looks like no other women wanted you.

 

I think with some people who have have been single for a while there can be a tendency to want a gf or bf that more closely matches their ideal to somehow justify the long wait. I agree with JJS on getting the monkey off his back for the OP and simply find a girl you hit it off with personality wise. The first girl doesn't have to be a long term relationship if you don't want it to be. You'll lean from it have fun and be able to refer to your ex for future dating convos.

Edited April 27, 2015 by ascendotum

[ZA Dater]

Being incel for too long will erode your confidence (so does getting rejected) maybe make you more desperate with the ones you like, and will kill opportunities with many women if it looks like no other women wanted you.

 

 

I am even older than the OP (31 in two weeks) and in the same position and the above rings very true for me own situation which is not too dissimilar to that of the OP.

 

 

For me though finding any I like is just getting more and more difficult and to be honest if I see a hot stunning female in a café, I don't even bother considering her because I know she wouldn't want me. Logic says inexperience is not hot, logic says if nobody has wanted you then there must be something socially wrong with you.

 

 

Bottom line, sadly some people get this right and it simply emotionally and mentally ruins others, sadly I appear to the in the latter category.

 

 

Eventually one just simply gives up and lives the sad life wanting something you cant find or get.

[ThaWholigan]

I'm not an incel but I have never had a GF either. Only lost my virginity at 23. So it isn't impossible to get somewhere, but obviously you didn't come here to hear that.

 

You've fallen into the "incel" trap. I wish you luck in getting out of it.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Your problem is most likely your looks and/or height.

 

Many women will tell you that it's things like your confidence, attitude, etc. but they are not being honest with you.

 

My advice would be to simply forget about women and go about your life in the way that you want. Do not completely change yourself just to become attractive to women, like most sources will tell you to do.

 

For the record, this is coming from a guy that previously did all of these things and has reasonable success with women. I'm a good-looking guy and have confidence that I'm able to get any woman that I want (some with more effort than others). However, I've decided that it's just too much work and not worth the effort. YMMV.

 

It's pretty good advice.

 

If going after women and getting rejected brings you misery, then why continue to go after it?

 

The idea in this life that suffering and misery brings the golden pot and the end of the rainbow is a little off IMO.

 

I will actually say that I know a number of guys who are closer to AGE 40 who have never had a girlfriend and as far as I know have given up. I mean, I can see why too. Going through all the rejection is pretty tough.

 

But nothing wrong with living a life that you are happy with without women. Once you settle into it, you'll stop complaining about it, and start enjoying your life.

[ZA Dater]

But nothing wrong with living a life that you are happy with without women. Once you settle into it, you'll stop complaining about it, and start enjoying your life.

 

 

I am guessing here but I reckon you don't speak from experience on this and are merely hypothesizing.

 

 

If you has experienced constant rejection and the feeling of being alone then I feel you would not have typed the above. If you had the constant feeling of something missing you would not have typed the above.

 

 

Believe me when I say going to events on your own, eating dinner on your own, no, none of those aspects is conducive to a happy life as you so simply put it.

 

 

This is especially true when you have had a glimpse of how amazing it is when you meet someone who you connect with intellectually. All that does is give you a taste of how nice it can be and just goes to magnify how alone you feel.

[Diezel]

The seek high status men and men with fat wallets, both categories I do not fall in.

 

Maybe you should spend more time working on becoming high status or a man with fat wallets then.

[JuneJulySeptember]

I am guessing here but I reckon you don't speak from experience on this and are merely hypothesizing.

 

 

If you has experienced constant rejection and the feeling of being alone then I feel you would not have typed the above. If you had the constant feeling of something missing you would not have typed the above.

 

 

Believe me when I say going to events on your own, eating dinner on your own, no, none of those aspects is conducive to a happy life as you so simply put it.

 

 

This is especially true when you have had a glimpse of how amazing it is when you meet someone who you connect with intellectually. All that does is give you a taste of how nice it can be and just goes to magnify how alone you feel.

 

Nah man. It's based on experience. Recent experience.

 

I'm in my 40s and still single. Once you're my age, you're going to start seeing that people are going to start randomly dying off. Seriously. You'll be like "Wow, Joe from college died. Can you believe that?"

 

When you view life through the lens of your own mortality, it becomes less of thinking about what you don't have and enjoying the time.

 

I do agree that humans are social animals. But you can volunteer and help people, or join meetup groups, or date a woman who is 'below your standards' but very nice. Etc, etc.

[ZA Dater]

Nah man. It's based on experience. Recent experience.

 

I'm in my 40s and still single. Once you're my age, you're going to start seeing that people are going to start randomly dying off. Seriously. You'll be like "Wow, Joe from college died. Can you believe that?"

 

When you view life through the lens of your own mortality, it becomes less of thinking about what you don't have and enjoying the time.

 

I do agree that humans are social animals. But you can volunteer and help people, or join meetup groups, or date a woman who is 'below your standards' but very nice. Etc, etc.

 

Thanks but dropping standard I cant do, very nice and below standards are both mutually exclusive words.

[pteromom]

OK...

 

1 - just going by your pic, you are NOT even close to ugly. Unless the part of your face in the shadows is covered by major burn scars or something, I don't think looks are your problem. You are welcome to share a better pic and I will give you honest feedback though, as I am sure many other LS members would.

 

2 - by hanging out at incel websites and going to incel get-togethers, you are just reinforcing your position as a "loser" at dating. I am sure these are mostly nice guys with good intentions, but they aren't going to help you. If you want to change your situation - and though you say you've given up, if that was true, you wouldn't be writing on a love advice site - you have to find mentors and SUCCESSFUL guys to hang around and learn from. You have to learn what to do differently to succeed. Not bitter PUA types, but true men who can help you. Many are here at LS.

 

3 - there is no 80/20 rule. Yeah sure - if you throw 10 guys and 10 girls in a room together, there will be one or two guys all the women give googly eyes to. (There will also be one or two women all the guys drool over.) But giving googly eyes to someone and wanting a RELATIONSHIP with him are not the same thing. I have so many gorgeous friends with average (or below average) husbands - and they are very in love and obviously attracted to each other.

 

4 - You gave up right when things may have started changing. You gave up at 23, so I assume you were approaching 18-23 year old girls. No offense to 18-23 year old girls (I was one once), but at that age, what girls are mostly looking for is identity. They've left home. They have a new world to explore. They don't know who they are outside of a member of their family. And they want to find out who they are. This is why they go out with guys with motorcycles, and guitar players, and artists, and club kings.... they are trying on different personalities, and trying to figure out who they are and what they want. As they get in their upper 20s, they've learned that the loud playboy type guys break hearts. They've learned that Mr. Guitar is not going to make it in the business and is never going to get a job that could support a family. They learn what is important. And they start actually rejecting guys who aren't right for them - not based on LOOKS - but based on compatibility and goals and values.

 

It's true that everyone wants to be attracted to their partner. But looks are subjective. There may be a guy who a lot of women find gorgeous, but each woman also has her own list of characteristics she finds attractive. I've known more than one woman who had "big nose" on that list. Another friend loves big lips - the bigger the better. I have known women who have a thing for bald guys. Who love guys the same height they are. Who like freckles. You name it - someone out there likes it.

 

So don't give up. If you want to succeed, quit hanging out with unsuccessful guys and do things differently.

 

Lastly - a "droopy eye" is a lot less noticeable with a big honest smile underneath it. Don't be a victim. Be an overcomer.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Thanks but dropping standard I cant do, very nice and below standards are both mutually exclusive words.

 

I quoted 'standards' because it was kind of tongue in cheek.

 

Standards for everybody means looks, level of dress, level of education and salary, etc.

 

Nobody lists 'likes 60s horror films' as a standard because that is TRULY subjective.

 

'Standards' are a way of saying, "I'm THIS awesome and I need somebody THIS awesome." If you get away from that and pick somebody based on the qualities you look for in a friend, then it's a different way to play the game.