The new, consolidated, Paying for Dates thread

[xxoo]

It makes her feel feminine when she is interested.

 

If I concluded by the end of the date that I'm not interested, I would insist on paying my share.

[SawtoothMars]

I read Gaeta's post and she did not attach biology to social convention. Where did you get that from? What are you saying? That our subconscious thoughts are not biological? That makes no sense at all. Gaeta's post was what she thought men think on a subconscious level when they pay for a woman on a date.

So, are you saying? That you believe that romantic love isn't biological and is an invention of the Medieval Code of Chivalry social norms that started in 13th Century France? That can't be true. Have you watched French movies? Haha!

 

Our real instincts are very vague. For example, you get thirsty but that impulse doesn't tell you whether to drink water, coke, or whiskey. That choice is controlled by habit and social convention. Our dating needs work this way as well. Paying for dates is such a social convention... but that instinctual thirst could easily be quenched in other ways.

 

The emotions behind "love" and "lust" have been around forever. However, most typically you would be married off to whoever brought your family the most benefit. Nearly all hunter gatherer societies perform this way. The whole idea of two people meeting and falling in love and then getting married was preposterous pre-1300's. In fact if you look at Romeo and Juliet written some 300 years later, you find the society teaching this kind of love to be dangerous and stupid.

 

The idea that people choose their own spouse is relatively new, and honestly isn't working out well... despite the alternative being morally repugnant.

[smg15]

If I concluded by the end of the date that I'm not interested, I would insist on paying my share.

 

I think that's what the girl did 3 weeks ago and like a fool I said,,,"No I got it"

 

LOL

[katiegrl]

There may actually be something to this. I just figured it was the thoughtfulness aspect?

 

 

I don't know. I feel like whoever invites the other on the date should pay. Regardless of gender. The pursuer should pay.

 

Your second paragraph -- that works for friends but not dating.

 

And agree with gaius, on a subconscious level, when a man pays, it IS a turn on. Don't know why, but it is.

 

And when a woman is turned on, the man feels good = win win.

 

Not to mention, when a woman feels turned on, she will want to turn her man on! By striving to be the most responsive, exciting, spontaneous partner he's ever had! Another win-win!

 

Of course there are other variables involved in turning each other on; a man paying in the early stages is just one.

[joseb]

Men who quibble about bills on dates, may always quibble about other money aspects, and as many marriages founder due to arguments about money, then that is not a great start.

I think men who quibble may be that way, but I think men who see women as equals and who believe that paying at least part of the time is reasonable are no more likely to. In fact, I'd say men who insist on paying are likely to be far more controlling (of finances, and everything).

And let's flip it around - I would think a woman who never offers to pay is likely to be that way in a relationship - always taking what she can get and offering little in return.

 

 

Most women expect men to pay for dates because they can….

I like getting free meals too.

This is exactly the dynamic I am trying to avoid which paying for 1st, 2nd 3rd dates seems to attract.

 

I think a lot of these guys feel the situation is like an employer that forces people to pay money to have an interview.

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It feels like that to me to.

 

Paying for dates is such a social convention... but that instinctual thirst could easily be quenched in other ways.

I agree. We have a lot of biological urges underlining us. We don't listen to them all. Thankfully (most of) society has managed to curb the urges we have to just take a female and have sex, to attack someone who wrongs us.

Just because it's hard wired into us doesn't mean is right or appropriate in modern society.

 

And it's not about being cheap or 'being a wuss'. It's about adjusting our beliefs to be in line with the real world we live in.

 

It's interesting how many people say they think a man paying is sexy or powerful. It's well known in PUA community that buying girls drinks at a bar is a surefire way to lower your value in their eyes. Sure they may like it, but most won't respect you for it. Perhaps it's different with an organised date, but I'm not convinced.

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies. Definitely an interesting thread.

[xxoo]

It's interesting how many people say they think a man paying is sexy or powerful. It's well known in PUA community that buying girls drinks at a bar is a surefire way to lower your value in their eyes. Sure they may like it, but most won't respect you for it. Perhaps it's different with an organised date, but I'm not convinced.

 

Yes, it's extremely different when courting a woman who's already agreed to a date vs. trying to pick up a woman in a bar.

 

It's a dance, and he can lead if he's inclined. Many are inclined.

 

1. He asks her out (shows interest)

2. She agrees (returns interest)

3. He offers to pay (shows interest)

4. She accepts (returns interest)

 

It advances from there, or not, but it's a step in the dance. And steadily, they each show more and more interest. As I said on the last thread on this topic, if a man didn't offer to pay for the first date, I'd simply pay for myself. But I'd be disappointed because I'd feel that it was a sign that he's not that into me.

[Rejected Rosebud]

You have to understand that most women only want "equality" in the parts that convenience them.

Who pays for dates is a social etiquette thing it's not really a question of "equality" like being able to vote and equal pay for equal work type things!! Everybody can choose do do as they like as far as paying for dates!!

[GoodOnPaper]

 

1. He asks her out (shows interest)

2. She agrees (returns interest)

3. He offers to pay (shows interest)

4. She accepts (returns interest)

 

It advances from there, or not, but it's a step in the dance. And steadily, they each show more and more interest. As I said on the last thread on this topic, if a man didn't offer to pay for the first date, I'd simply pay for myself. But I'd be disappointed because I'd feel that it was a sign that he's not that into me.

 

Exactly!! Step 4 is VERY telling. I would pretty much be offended if my date took a hard line on going dutch, at least on the first date . . . but, I'm in my late 40s (borderline baby boomer/Gen X). It always surprises me to see paying for dates as such a hot-button issue on LS. Could it be a generational thing? As we've gone from Gen X --> Gen Y --> Millenial, you combine the proliferation of online dating with a tighter economy and a more pessimistic outlook on the economy's future.

[Shining One]

Yes, it's extremely different when courting a woman who's already agreed to a date vs. trying to pick up a woman in a bar.

 

It's a dance, and he can lead if he's inclined. Many are inclined.

 

1. He asks her out (shows interest)

2. She agrees (returns interest)

3. He offers to pay (shows interest)

4. She accepts (returns interest)

 

It advances from there, or not, but it's a step in the dance. And steadily, they each show more and more interest. As I said on the last thread on this topic, if a man didn't offer to pay for the first date, I'd simply pay for myself. But I'd be disappointed because I'd feel that it was a sign that he's not that into me.

I agree with this with the exception of the last step. Just because a woman accepts payment, her interest is not guaranteed.

[joseb]

if a man didn't offer to pay for the first date, I'd simply pay for myself. But I'd be disappointed because I'd feel that it was a sign that he's not that into me.

Yeah, just for the record, if I had any interest in seeing the woman again I'd definitely offer to pay for the first one - and I'd be reluctant to accept anything if she offered - if she did I'd suggest something like get it next time.

Maybe I am just as affected by societal pressures as everyone

[Rejected Rosebud]

And let's flip it around - I would think a woman who never offers to pay is likely to be that way in a relationship - always taking what she can get and offering little in return.

That might be right she might be like that but OTOH she just might be super traditional ... in my social life though people pay for each other all the time EXCEPT usually if a guy asks a girl out on a date it is kind of assumed he'll pay. Once they're in a relationship that is all different though.

[Shining One]

Who pays for dates is a social etiquette thing it's not really a question of "equality" like being able to vote and equal pay for equal work type things!! Everybody can choose do do as they like as far as paying for dates!!

Men paying for dates originated from a time when women were incapable of paying due to lack of their own income. You're right, everyone can choose to do as they like, but there are consequences for going against the social norms. There are plenty of women who will automatically shun a man for not opening his wallet early on. I almost always pay since I never know when a woman is "testing" me.

[xxoo]

Yeah, just for the record, if I had any interest in seeing the woman again I'd definitely offer to pay for the first one - and I'd be reluctant to accept anything if she offered - if she did I'd suggest something like get it next time.

Maybe I am just as affected by societal pressures as everyone

 

See? It's that simple. A guy who really likes a woman wants to pay. And a woman who really likes a guy is thrilled because it is a sign that he really likes her, too.

 

It ain't about the free pasta

[Shining One]

It ain't about the free pasta

While I admit this is an outlier, sometimes it is about the free pasta.

[fitnessfan365]

And let's flip it around - I would think a woman who never offers to pay is likely to be that way in a relationship - always taking what she can get and offering little in return.

 

The key is communication early on.

 

Here's what I do. A GREAT question to ask is "What are a few of your deal breakers when dating someone?" She'll answer and then ask you what yours are. This works well because you're speaking in generalities without directly aiming at her. But it allows you to get your point across. One thing I always say is " I won't date a woman that expects me to plan and pay for every single date. I enjoy handling the details usually, but I appreciate it when she takes an active interest so it isn't one sided."

 

Answering anything under this question is really powerful. Once again, it isn't directly aimed at her. But it's telling her in one way or another what you won't tolerate.

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

See, this is where I don't agree with a lot of the posters here. I don't feel that a man's interest in dating me or his interest in getting to know me is hinged upon him offering to pay for the date or always paying for the dates (even earlier on). For me, a man's interest in dating me is shown when he speaks up and asks me if I'd like to go out on a date with him.

 

Whether it's a first date or a fourth date, I always take out my debit card to pay my way. ALWAYS. If the guy says, "No no, I got this!" Then I'd say, "Are you sure?" and if he says, "Yeah!" then I'd say, "Cool. I got it next time!" And that'll be that. I'd NEVER put a guy on the spot by expecting him to buy my meal or to pay my admittance ticket, etc. Why should he pay my way for ANYTHING?? I'm a complete stranger - he doesn't know me from Adam! Not only that, but by paying my own way EVERY time, it keeps things even and respectful. There won't be any obligations or expectations from either side. I would feel very uncomfortable if a guy paid my way on a date without me paying my way first; it would make me feel inferior, like I'm incapable of paying for myself - and, a LOT of guys expect 'something' at the end of the evening just because they paid a woman's way. Or, they expect you to continue to date them even if there's no chem or connection present. Um, no way!

 

For all of the traditional women out there who insist on men paying their way on the first date or on subsequent dates because they think it's "romantic" or "chivalrous" of the guy to do that or because they hinge his willingness to pay for them as a sign of his "interest" in them, then that's their call to make. If it works for them, great. But, that mode of thinking doesn't work for me. I'm not interested in a guy's money, or what he buys me, or where he spends money on to take me somewhere. I'm interested in HIM. I'm interested in whether I'm attracted to him physically, to his personality and whether there's any chem or connection between us. If we get into a relationship, and he wants to buy me a gift or take me somewhere, that's all well and good. As long as he's comfortable with me reciprocating that, then it's gonna be a fun and awesome relationship!

 

 

 

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[writergal]

 

For all of the traditional women out there who insist on men paying their way on the first date or on subsequent dates because they think it's "romantic" or "chivalrous" of the guy to do that or because they hinge his willingness to pay for them as a sign of his "interest" in them, then that's their call to make. If it works for them, great. But, that mode of thinking doesn't work for me. I'm not interested in a guy's money, or what he buys me, or where he spends money on to take me somewhere. I'm interested in HIM. I'm interested in whether I'm attracted to him physically, to his personality and whether there's any chem or connection between us. If we get into a relationship, and he wants to buy me a gift or take me somewhere, that's all well and good. As long as he's comfortable with me reciprocating that, then it's gonna be a fun and awesome relationship!

 

.

 

Haha that's directly referencing my post here. I get it. We have different dating styles.

 

But I am not a materialistic person. I've said also that a man's chivalry paying for the date doesn't guarantee that he has good character or is someone financially stable. I guess I live in an idealistic world, or maybe some would consider it a fantasy world. But it does make me feel more feminine, to have a guy offer to pay for my dinner or movie tickets. The way

at 1:00 into this clip. I will always be a romantic at heart like that.

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

Haha that's directly referencing my post here. I get it. We have different dating styles.

 

Whoa, are you serious? I didn't even read your post before I posted mine lol. But, I did read posts from the other members that specifically stated those very same things!

 

Yeah, we both have different dating styles, but, whatever works for each of us is what counts - which is what I stated at the end of my post! That being said, what makes me feel feminine and what makes me think the guy is being chivalrous and romantic is when he opens doors for me, places his hand gently on my lower back when we're entering a building or when we're about to sit down at a table...when he genuinely listens to me while I'm talking, when he brushes the hair out of my eyes or touches my long hair...when he looks into my eyes and it's like he's looking into my soul lol....stuff like that!

 

 

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[writergal]

Whoa, are you serious? I didn't even read your post before I posted mine lol. But, I did read posts from the other members that specifically stated those very same things!

 

Yeah, we both have different dating styles, but, whatever works for each of us is what counts - which is what I stated at the end of my post! That being said, what makes me feel feminine and what makes me think the guy is being chivalrous and romantic is when he opens doors for me, places his hand gently on my lower back when we're entering a building or when we're about to sit down at a table...when he genuinely listens to me while I'm talking, when he brushes the hair out of my eyes or touches my long hair...when he looks into my eyes and it's like he's looking into my soul lol....stuff like that!

 

 

.

 

Haha! Yep! And I like your examples of men's chivalry too! I like it when men do those for me as well! Different dating styles, but we still think alike sometimes!

[smg15]

See, this is where I don't agree with a lot of the posters here. I don't feel that a man's interest in dating me or his interest in getting to know me is hinged upon him offering to pay for the date or always paying for the dates (even earlier on). For me, a man's interest in dating me is shown when he speaks up and asks me if I'd like to go out on a date with him.

 

Whether it's a first date or a fourth date, I always take out my debit card to pay my way. ALWAYS. If the guy says, "No no, I got this!" Then I'd say, "Are you sure?" and if he says, "Yeah!" then I'd say, "Cool. I got it next time!" And that'll be that. I'd NEVER put a guy on the spot by expecting him to buy my meal or to pay my admittance ticket, etc. Why should he pay my way for ANYTHING?? I'm a complete stranger - he doesn't know me from Adam! Not only that, but by paying my own way EVERY time, it keeps things even and respectful. There won't be any obligations or expectations from either side. I would feel very uncomfortable if a guy paid my way on a date without me paying my way first; it would make me feel inferior, like I'm incapable of paying for myself - and, a LOT of guys expect 'something' at the end of the evening just because they paid a woman's way. Or, they expect you to continue to date them even if there's no chem or connection present. Um, no way!

 

For all of the traditional women out there who insist on men paying their way on the first date or on subsequent dates because they think it's "romantic" or "chivalrous" of the guy to do that or because they hinge his willingness to pay for them as a sign of his "interest" in them, then that's their call to make. If it works for them, great. But, that mode of thinking doesn't work for me. I'm not interested in a guy's money, or what he buys me, or where he spends money on to take me somewhere. I'm interested in HIM. I'm interested in whether I'm attracted to him physically, to his personality and whether there's any chem or connection between us. If we get into a relationship, and he wants to buy me a gift or take me somewhere, that's all well and good. As long as he's comfortable with me reciprocating that, then it's gonna be a fun and awesome relationship!

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

This is how I feel about the first meet from a dating site. I really should not be paying for anything

[Anela]

Haha that's directly referencing my post here. I get it. We have different dating styles.

 

But I am not a materialistic person. I've said also that a man's chivalry paying for the date doesn't guarantee that he has good character or is someone financially stable. I guess I live in an idealistic world, or maybe some would consider it a fantasy world. But it does make me feel more feminine, to have a guy offer to pay for my dinner or movie tickets. The way

at 1:00 into this clip. I will always be a romantic at heart like that.

I love that movie, and that clip is one of my favourites.

[guest569]

What about when a friend turns and says 'ok, you owe me $1.75 for half of the buy one get one free coffee' and was actually serious. Awkward. Forgetting that last time I paid $12 for his movie ticket. Not that I want to keep a tally, but come on. Tight as.

[Els]

It's really interesting how despite multiple attempts at explaining it, some people can't seem to grasp the difference between an 'expectation' and 'something someone does that happens to increase your attraction towards them'.

 

Anyway, as I've said before on these threads... it's really just a cultural thing IMO - there's no right or wrong. Where I grew up in Asia the guy almost always paid for dates, and in fact it was so ingrained in our culture that if a waiter knows you're a couple, he gives the bill to the guy right away, no asking if you want to pay separately. (In case some of you were wondering, there was no 'expectation' of anything at the end of the evening either - sex on the third date was extremely rare there and most guys were happy to wait months at the very least). But where I currently live (egalitarian Caucasian culture) it seems like most of the younger couples go dutch (and sex typically happens a lot earlier).

 

Personally going dutch screams 'platonic friends!!!!' to me , probably due to cultural conditioning - it was sort of an unspoken rule in many Asian countries that if you like the guy, you allow him to pay for you when he insists, whereas if you want to enforce platonic boundaries you insist on going dutch. Similarly a guy who was trying to pursue you would always try to pay, whereas a platonic friend who wasn't interested in anything romantic would not. Social signals and all that. So even if I were to be in a R where we each pay 50% on dates, I'd rather just take turns treating than split the bill.

 

But, different strokes for different folks...

Edited April 26, 2015 by Elswyth

[Shining One]

It's really interesting how despite multiple attempts at explaining it, some people can't seem to grasp the difference between an 'expectation' and 'something someone does that happens to increase your attraction towards them'.

These are not mutually exclusive. Someone can expect the other party to pay and be more attracted as a result. Someone can also expect the other party not to pay and not experience increased attraction when the other party surprises them and does pay.

Personally going dutch screams 'platonic friends!!!!

I only go dutch with casual acquaintances. I take turns with my close friends. Two people on the first date are just acquaintances though. They're "nothing" yet.

[PumpkinLumpkin]

If the guy splits the bill on the first date, there will not be a second date.

 

Why? Simple. It's not the way I was raised, and in all of my past relationships, the man always paid and that is what I am accustomed to. I'm also mindful enough to order modestly, no drinks or desserts. Majority of the time, I eat like a bird and the guy finishes off my plate too, so yeah, he should pay.

 

The man not paying (especially for the first few dates) is just a small indicator of what I might expect on a larger scale of a combined life together, like who is expected to take out the trash or who will be responsible for laundry or who drives. I would not be dating a man who made me drive all the time either.

 

I guarantee if I cooked dinner, which will be a likely possibility if we continued dating, more money would be spent on the ingredients I buy, plus my time and expensive cookware and cookbooks, than whatever dinner he's buying me. It works out in the end.