The new, consolidated, Paying for Dates thread

[Sam2020]

This topic cracks me up. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and to date who they want to date. It’s when people start talking about feminism and think that because women believe that they are entitled to equal pay for equal work, that that somehow carries over to dating. They are two completely different arenas. And if you can’t see the difference, then I’m pretty sure you have some serious issues with women.

 

Dudes who think paying for your beer means that they are paying for sex are people to avoid. Full stop. That’s all there is to it.

 

Well said!

[Shining One]

This topic cracks me up.

Me too. I can't fathom the logic of women who spout: "He's cheap/stingy because he only wants to pay 50%" but fail to label themselves as cheap for wanting to pay nothing.

Dudes who think paying for your beer means that they are paying for sex are people to avoid. Full stop. That’s all there is to it.

The same can be said of women who make sex contingent upon being paid for. I don't think a woman would find it acceptable if I lost sexual interest in her because she failed to cook me dinner or fold my laundry.

 

Admittedly, I've probably been "spoiled" by the egalitarian women in my life. Thus, I no longer consider this behavior as relationship-worthy.

[Woggle]

This topic cracks me up. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and to date who they want to date. It’s when people start talking about feminism and think that because women believe that they are entitled to equal pay for equal work, that that somehow carries over to dating. They are two completely different arenas. And if you can’t see the difference, then I’m pretty sure you have some serious issues with women.

 

Dudes who think paying for your beer means that they are paying for sex are people to avoid. Full stop. That’s all there is to it.

 

A popular saying during the 70s feminist movement was that the personal is political so dating very much is a part of feminism.

 

I don't think that paying for a meal entitles a man to sex but at the end of the day if I were single I would not drop a lot of money on a woman I was not exclusively involved with. You can't rip up a social contract and then try to revert back to it when it you feel it benefits you. Life doesn't work that way. It is a new social order between men and women and we all have to adjust to it. I am not against chivalry at all but I understand how it feels grating when men all the time about how patriarchy is bad and all these things women won't do for men anymore but they want to keep the parts of patriarchy that they like. Sometimes the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater.

[preraph]

Bottom line, if you don't like the guy's actions, whatever they are, stop going out with him. Your instincts are probably right. A man is on his best behavior in the very early days of dating. It's only going downhill from there. So if this is his best effort......

[Woggle]

This is true for anybody of any gender. If somebody shows bad signs early on it's all downhill from there.

[Shining One]

A man is on his best behavior in the very early days of dating. It's only going downhill from there. So if this is his best effort......

Are women not on their best behavior during the very early days of dating?

[oldtruck]

This topic cracks me up. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions and to date who they want to date. It’s when people start talking about feminism and think that because women believe that they are entitled to equal pay for equal work, that that somehow carries over to dating. They are two completely different arenas. And if you can’t see the difference, then I’m pretty sure you have some serious issues with women.

 

Dudes who think paying for your beer means that they are paying for sex are people to avoid. Full stop. That’s all there is to it.

 

Hypocritical to be a feminist and want equality yet want the man to

pay for the whole date.

 

That is picking and choosing when it is ok to be treated equally and to

be treated as a woman.

 

 

Pay for the date?

Woman pay for the date?

I don't need no stinkin' woman paying for no stinkin' date.

 

The above courtesy from the movie Treasure of the Sierra Madre.

Not the first one to take poetic license with that line.

 

 

Troop Beverly Hills: Patches, what patches,we don't need no stinkin' patches. At 4:58.

Edited September 8, 2019 by oldtruck

[salparadise]

...because women believe that they are entitled to equal pay for equal work, that that somehow carries over to dating. They are two completely different arenas. And if you can’t see the difference, then I’m pretty sure you have some serious issues with women.

 

...they want to keep the parts of patriarchy that they like

 

Nope, not "two completely different arenas" at all. Feminism is not limited to equal pay for equal work. It goes far beyond –– it's about men and women being equal in every way, and relating and respecting as such. It is a new social order; women have agency and patriarchy is a relic of previous millennia.

 

I don't care much for framing it as feminism either; for me it's simply equality, along with balanced expectations in terms how we relate to one another. It's also not about the practical cost of a date (though it can get expensive), it's the contortionist, hypocritical expectation that men need to pay for the privilege of a woman's company due to unequal value of his vs. hers.

 

Having dated both types, it has gotten to the point that I lose respect when a woman just assumes that paying is a man's obligation due to her having greater value and inherent privilege. The two are mutually exclusive, and to not understand that is, well, a deficit in key areas of awareness or intelligence.

[thefooloftheyear]

I guess for women, if its a donkey they want, then sure, its best to see that the donkey is willing and capable of carrying the load, right from the start...

 

TFY

[oldtruck]

Nope, not "two completely different arenas" at all. Feminism is not limited to equal pay for equal work. It goes far beyond –– it's about men and women being equal in every way, and relating and respecting as such. It is a new social order; women have agency and patriarchy is a relic of previous millennia.

 

I don't care much for framing it as feminism either; for me it's simply equality, along with balanced expectations in terms how we relate to one another. It's also not about the practical cost of a date (though it can get expensive), it's the contortionist, hypocritical expectation that men need to pay for the privilege of a woman's company due to unequal value of his vs. hers.

 

Having dated both types, it has gotten to the point that I lose respect when a woman just assumes that paying is a man's obligation due to her having greater value and inherent privilege. The two are mutually exclusive, and to not understand that is, well, a deficit in key areas of awareness or intelligence.

 

It is not that a woman relationship value is greater.

 

It is two things:

 

One: Some women being hypocrites.

 

Second: A man showing that he willing to provide for the woman

he is in a relationship with. Years ago Mr Neanderthal would drag

home an animal's carcass. Now the equivalent is to pay for the

date.

 

People ignore biological evolution. Woman can now go out and

get their own meat from the butcher. However men and women

still need to procreate. They need to couple up.

 

Paying for the date demonstrates his ability to share his kill, now called

his income. A woman judges a man's ability to provide for her and their

future children as part of her decision on who to marry.

 

How many times it is said on LS: single women give their best sex to the

bad boy's and the WW's to their OM. They marry Mr Safe Beta Provider.

Who they just give enough plain sex to keep beta husband around.

To pay the bills.

[Foxhall]

Im noticing now that while I am generally happy to pay for the date, when the woman is keen to pay sometimes it is a sign that things are going well

 

[salparadise]

People ignore biological evolution.

 

I don't ignore evolution, in fact I've made so many arguments on here talking about our genetic propensities that people are tired of hearing it. And they always argue that we need not be slaves to biology even though such tendencies exist, which is often denied when it's convenient.

 

Social learning and social evolution exist too. There are many, many women who have the opposite perspective, and sufficient pride that they would never think of signaling that they subscribe to the helpless breeder role by expecting/allowing strange men to buy them meals. This is social evolution/revolution, and it has been going on in an organized fashion for about 200 yers, since before 1848 when Lucretia Mott and Elizabeth Cady Stanton organized a women's rights convention in Seneca Falls, New York that is considered the beginning of the women's suffrage movement.

Edited September 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
off topic

[Veronica73]

Me too. I can't fathom the logic of women who spout: "He's cheap/stingy because he only wants to pay 50%" but fail to label themselves as cheap for wanting to pay nothing.The same can be said of women who make sex contingent upon being paid for. I don't think a woman would find it acceptable if I lost sexual interest in her because she failed to cook me dinner or fold my laundry.

 

Admittedly, I've probably been "spoiled" by the egalitarian women in my life. Thus, I no longer consider this behavior as relationship-worthy.

 

Again, if I'm remembering correctly, this guy (from the original thread from which these posts were reposted) wasn't even offering to buy A BEER. He paid for his own and left her to pay for hers. Who does that?! When I go out with people, whether it is friends, family, date, coworkers, people I just met...we take turns. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a sexist thing. If a friend, no-matter what gender, wasn't willing to offer to buy a drink for me, it would be off-putting. Not that it would be a deal-breaker...I'd just think it was one of their more un-attractive quirks. Because I know them and know their other wonderful characteristics. And I definitely give as good (if not more) than I get. My parents and my older sibling are probably the only people in my entire life who have spent more money on me than I have spent on them.

 

Not even being willing to buy a beer for somebody you have been on a (I think I remember correctly) a few dates with is just cheap-skate, ungenerous, red-flag behavior as far as I'm concerned. And again, if I'm remembering correctly about the details of the thread that I originally posted in, they had gone on several dates, he was the one who asked her out, he picked the venues, and she had to drive farther to get there. And yes, maybe she should have offered to buy a round first... or dinner first, but my post was more in response to these guys who are acting like buying a girl/person a beer carries some expectation of sex. WTF? I'll buy strangers at a bar a beer. And they will do so for me as well. And at least on my part, it wouldn't ever occur to me that either one of use would be expecting sex. Who is that cheap?!!!!

 

It's called being friendly. It has nothing to do with feminism.

 

A popular saying during the 70s feminist movement was that the personal is political so dating very much is a part of feminism.

 

I don't think that paying for a meal entitles a man to sex but at the end of the day if I were single I would not drop a lot of money on a woman I was not exclusively involved with. You can't rip up a social contract and then try to revert back to it when it you feel it benefits you. Life doesn't work that way. It is a new social order between men and women and we all have to adjust to it. I am not against chivalry at all but I understand how it feels grating when men all the time about how patriarchy is bad and all these things women won't do for men anymore but they want to keep the parts of patriarchy that they like. Sometimes the baby needs to be thrown out with the bathwater.

 

I guess I get your point. And I wouldn't drop a lot of money on a person I wasn't exclusively involved with, and I wouldn't be comfortable with vice versa, unless the guy was obviously so well off that it didn't mean much to him. But a lot of what I personally am talking about, is just being a generous, kind person. And while I think we all deserve equal rights and equal pay under the law... I don't quite agree all men and all women necessarily need to treat each other in completely equal fashions when it comes to dating. People are entitled to their preferences, and people are entitled to be the people they truly are and are comfortable with being. That doesn't mean that those two people will always match up.

 

Nobody is required or entitled to get dates. For example, women tend to be judged much, much harsher as far as appearances go when it comes to dating/sex. And yeah, it sucks. (But when I'm trying to find someone to date, I try to find guys who aren't so particular/judgemental about that stuff. Because I know I'll never measure up, and frankly, it's a losing battle. Time wins.) We are expected to do way more as far as spending on clothes, keeping up our hair, body, makeup, shaving, have attractive panties/bras, (and never reach menopause) etc. It's just the way it is. And yeah, there are a few women who look gorgeous and up-to-standards doing very little of this stuff, (as there are some guys who don't care that much about that stuff) but they are probably at the very far-right of the bell-curve, or they are in their twenties. Men have a much easier deal on this front.

 

Guys who spend/care as much about their OWN appearance, as they do about the appearance of the woman/women they are dating, or are considering dating, are either considered gay or metro-sexuals. Neither of which is generally considered a good thing when it comes to heterosexual dating.

 

But yet when it comes to financial matters, women are expected to forgo our natural proclivities to want a man who will try to provide for us. In that case we should all be treated equally.

 

And again, personally, I have always offered to pay, when the relationship wasn't established and we hadn't worked out an understanding that said otherwise. I can only think of one time I didn't offer to split or pay the entire bill, and that was when my date grabbed the bill out of the waiter's hand before he even set it down, and I had only had a bowl of soup while my date had had an entire meal plus a drink.

 

Bottom line, if you don't like the guy's actions, whatever they are, stop going out with him. Your instincts are probably right. A man is on his best behavior in the very early days of dating. It's only going downhill from there. So if this is his best effort......

Exactly.

 

Didn't want to quote all of that.

Didn't want to quote all of that.

 

We're not even close to being equal. There are places where a whole lot of men want to be equal are where it costs them if they're not equal, but they're perfectly fine when it's beneficial to them. And in those cases they call it "biological" or "evolutionary".

 

But again, most of my posts that were quoted weren't even about that. People were all going off the rails because I think it's a warning sign when a PERSON doesn't want to buy you a beer. And I think that's a serious cheapskate move and probably a red flag about how things will be in the future. And that if a guy thinks that buying somebody a beer that it somehow equates to expectations of sex on either side, it's probably also a huge red flag. And I say this as someone who treats men, women, friends, family, strangers, equally in a bar. It's a freaking beer.

[Woggle]

I would never throw a fit over a beer but I understand why some men feel resentment over being the only one ones to have to follow the old rules. You heat all the time how women don't need us and our better off without us then theyvact shocked when that doesn't inspire chivalrous desires in men. Also according to many women they get dressed up for themselves and other women instead of men.

[gaius]

There is something that most women like on a primal level about men picking up the tab on a date. And that's not going to change. So if you like a woman and you want to impress her, pick up the tab!

Edited September 14, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
off topic

[oldtruck]

I would never throw a fit over a beer but I understand why some men feel resentment over being the only one ones to have to follow the old rules. You heat all the time how women don't need us and our better off without us then theyvact shocked when that doesn't inspire chivalrous desires in men. Also according to many women they get dressed up for themselves and other women instead of men.

 

Also according to many women they get dressed up for themselves and other women instead of men.

 

Before the word gets out I can get you a deal on ocean front property in

Nebraska. You have to move fast.

 

 

Yes an we be the fools to believe it. In away they dress up for other women.

They do not want their other competition get ahead in their quest to

attract male attention. You have to be able to read between the lines

when women talk.

[CollinW]

it’s when people start talking about feminism and think that because women believe that they are entitled to equal pay for equal work, that that somehow carries over to dating. They are two completely different arenas. And if you can’t see the difference, then I’m pretty sure you have some serious issues with women.

Men paid because men had all of the money and buying power. Not only that but people didn't date around back then and dating almost always lead straight to marriage, in which the women was assumed to give up her own lifestyle to serve the family.

 

So if you want to reverse the financial expectations of society, you have to reverse the culture that those financial implications were built on also. The reason no one expects children to pay for anything is because children don't have buying power. The minute children begin making as much as adult, then they're likely going to be assigned responsibility. Like a teenager who gets a summer job and is expected to pay for their own expensive clothes.

Edited October 5, 2019 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
rude

[thefooloftheyear]

When women start talking about how men paying and providing is primal and biologically based, just tell them so is "spreading his seeds" among as many women as possible is primal for men...

 

That usually brings it back around....

 

TFY

[CollinW]

When women start talking about how men paying and providing is primal and biologically based, just tell them so is "spreading his seeds" among as many women as possible is primal for men...

 

That usually brings it back around....

 

TFY

Right?!

 

Biological imperative is all good and dandy up until it applies to men. Then it's toxic and we're supposedly evolved past it.

[some_username1]

There is something that most women like on a primal level about men picking up the tab on a date. And that's not going to change. So if you like a woman and you want to impress her, pick up the tab!

 

I'd rather be appreciated for my mind rather than objectified for the size of my wallet, thanks.

[some_username1]

My recent experience is that, having dated 4 women aged 40+ recently only one of them deigned to reach into her purse and buy a round. The others sat there with an empty glass in front of them until I got bored of waiting for them to offer and offered to buy them another at which they jumped at the chance.

Ugh, such a turn off! This is in total contrast with the < 40 crowd I have dated.

The way I operate is that if a girl shows enough gumption to buy a round on the first date I'll buy her dinner on the second so I'm all about providing but I want to see that they aren't afraid to contribute from the start. One seemed a really good prospect too, then she turned up 20 minutes late and sat on her purse the whole time. Poor form.

 

I'll definitely be sticking to under 40's women in future.

[salparadise]

Poor form. [...] I'll definitely be sticking to under 40's women in future.

 

I agree. If you’re going to have to pay to play, you might as well patronize the more fertile vendors, a few rounds notwithstanding.

[SumGuy]

I’m all about not feeding an entitlement mentality but a few drinks is chump change if you’re in the financially stable category and 40+. I’m happy to buy drinks and dinner as it’s magnanimous. Though have to say I date only 40+, and often 50+ women and they usually offer to split and sometimes even pay.

[gaius]

You know enigma, in my lifetime I've taken out a grand total of 3 women. None of them were after a free meal. I've never been stood up or rescheduled on. Because it's not about taking out every woman you exchange 3 words with online or letting the women pick you. Know what you want, find it and go after it. And spend enough time interacting to have a good idea if she's that or not before you ever take her out.

 

If you follow those rules even if you're dirt poor you should have enough money to show her a good time and pick up the tab. And you won't have to go through 500 first dates before you find the one. Third time was the charm for me.

[SumGuy]

To sum up what I feel are the reasons some men might be upset by the idea that we are still expected to pay for dates.

 

1: Equality is supposed to be a thing. Everybody wants equality until it comes time to pay for dinner, and then suddenly, ladies are all traditional.

 

2: Dating is too expensive. Sure, paying for dinner for this one girl doesn't set me back much, but when you are trying to use OLD, and you're supposed to pay for each date, for each girl you meet, that crap adds up.

 

3: Too many people act entitled to a free meal. This one really bugs me too. When the check comes, some ladies don't even pretend they ever had any intentions of paying for anything. What, can't even offer to pay the tip?

 

4: The double standard of it all. If a guy does not pay, he's a cheapskate, right? But what about all the women sitting around not wanting to pay for crap and labeling men cheapskates? They're not cheapskates.

That is pretty much it.

 

I do love when women offer to pay the tip, and it is what I do when they insist on paying. Now when women pay found it is one of two things, they are not interested at all and don't want to be beholden to you, or they are really interested and they want to show you that you are "worth paying for." So clear unambiguous signals. Actually it is pretty clear in context but love how the same action is used to send two completely different messages.

 

I went out with a girl back in May. She is the one that was hitting on me online and said we should meet for drinks. She even picked the place! We show up, have a drink, then she says she is hungry and we both order some food. Have another drink. When the check comes, it is around $70.00 and despite the fact that she picked the place, she made more money than me, and she is the one that wanted to have food, guess who was expected to pay? This guy.

Did you? How'd it work out with her?