The new, consolidated, Paying for Dates thread

[PrettyEmily77]

Is this just theory, or have you actually put this into practice? How many relationships have you had in which you handled all of the early dating costs?

 

Not theory, no. I'm self sufficient, so I don't mind and don't make such a song and dance about it is all. I've had long-term experience of a guy who would share what was mine and keep what was his, but that didn't make me bitter or want to change myself in case it happens again.

 

As an aside, some men really keep their wallets tight (especially wealthy men) out of fear for the might gold digger. Sadly, they still get burnt because some people are very adept at playing the long game, will pretend to be whatever it is you want them to be and then reveal their true colours when committed.

 

So my plan is to take the time to get to know someone well, listen to my guts, not over-think and take it on the chin should things go wrong, not agonise over who does what on Date 1 and Date 2.

 

Admittedly I've not dated that much, I don't do OLD (not for me), and prefer direct contact straight away with a very marked preference for people in my extended social / pro circle, so that might explain a few things.

[Shining One]

Not theory, no. I'm self sufficient, so I don't mind and don't make such a song and dance about it is all. I've had long-term experience of a guy who would share what was mine and keep what was his, but that didn't make me bitter or want to change myself in case it happens again.

To be clear, I only make this a song and dance on this forum. Women I date have no idea I feel this way. For example, I went on four dates with a woman shortly before I met my current girlfriend. She didn't look at her purse at the end of any of those dates. The morning after the fourth date, I called her and told her I didn't see a future. She thought things were going well. She didn't ask why and I didn't tell her.

Admittedly I've not dated that much, I don't do OLD (not for me), and prefer direct contact straight away with a very marked preference for people in my extended social / pro circle, so that might explain a few things.

This makes sense. Most of my dates have come from OLD. I've dated dozens of women over the years.

[SwordofFlame]

Not theory, no. I'm self sufficient, so I don't mind and don't make such a song and dance about it is all. I've had long-term experience of a guy who would share what was mine and keep what was his, but that didn't make me bitter or want to change myself in case it happens again.

 

As an aside, some men really keep their wallets tight (especially wealthy men) out of fear for the might gold digger. Sadly, they still get burnt because some people are very adept at playing the long game, will pretend to be whatever it is you want them to be and then reveal their true colours when committed.

 

So my plan is to take the time to get to know someone well, listen to my guts, not over-think and take it on the chin should things go wrong, not agonise over who does what on Date 1 and Date 2.

 

Admittedly I've not dated that much, I don't do OLD (not for me), and prefer direct contact straight away with a very marked preference for people in my extended social / pro circle, so that might explain a few things.

 

I would alter my approach too if I were already friends and knew the woman pretty well before dating her. What works in those scenarios may not really work for OLD. You don't believe in OLD anyway, so that's fine.

[PrettyEmily77]

To be clear, I only make this a song and dance on this forum. Women I date have no idea I feel this way. For example, I went on four dates with a woman shortly before I met my current girlfriend. She didn't look at her purse at the end of any of those dates. The morning after the fourth date, I called her and told her I didn't see a future. She thought things were going well. She didn't ask why and I didn't tell her.

 

For all you know, she thought you wanted to treat her rather than expected you to...She's not a mind reader, no more than you are.

 

I have a French background and men in France would be offended if a woman were as much as offer to pay for a meal. In my uni days here in the UK, male friends would not accept for the girls to pay for our drinks in our group. It was very common back in the day.

 

Obviously times and habits have changed with OLD, and there are other variables like cultural differences and age, but of all 'deal breakers', that's probably the last thing on my list. I don't want my relationships to be made to feel like a business arrangement.

 

If that's what OLD does to you, no thanks.

[Shining One]

Obviously times and habits have changed with OLD, and there are other variables like cultural differences and age, but of all 'deal breakers', that's probably the last thing on my list. I don't want my relationships to be made to feel like a business arrangement.

Are you saying you would be okay with a man not once reaching for the check in the first four dates with you?

[PrettyEmily77]

Are you saying you would be okay with a man not once reaching for the check in the first four dates with you?

 

I don't count in terms of dates, that doesn't mean much to me. I don't have the stomach for dating dozens of men over the years anyway.

 

In any case, doesn't matter what I do - if this is a good way for you weed out 'takers', then go for that.

[Shining One]

I don't count in terms of dates, that doesn't mean much to me. I don't have the stomach for dating dozens of men over the years anyway.

 

In any case, doesn't matter what I do - if this is a good way for you weed out 'takers', then go for that.

I'm just trying to understand why that particular deal-breaker seems unacceptable. That's why I asked what you would do in that specific scenario.

 

Personally, I have yet to meet a woman who would be okay with a man not reaching for the check at least once in the first four dates. If you are okay with that, you would be the first.

[No_Go]

Personally, I have yet to meet a woman who would be okay with a man not reaching for the check at least once in the first four dates. If you are okay with that, you would be the first.

 

Ok - you just met one This was the case with my first BF. He just lost his business before meeting me, I knew it and was ok (initially) with covering up for both of us. Btw I was a PhD student back then so not swimming in cash myself. It eventually got old and I had to leave but that was months down the line.

[PrettyEmily77]

I'm just trying to understand why that particular deal-breaker seems unacceptable. That's why I asked what you would do in that specific scenario.

 

Personally, I have yet to meet a woman who would be okay with a man not reaching for the check at least once in the first four dates. If you are okay with that, you would be the first.

 

There are plenty of women like that (that to me would happen as a matter of course), but I don't think we could compare.

 

I don't want to be date 24 of the month, I'm not keen on having sex early to prove a point, and I don't want to be seating next to guy who is weighing my relationship potential on the expectation that I should or shouldn't pay for a meal within a certain timescale.

 

So you see, apples and oranges.

[Sunkissedpatio]

First off, I do agree with you. My first date is generally the same. A drink at a local bar, and if things go well, Netlfix and Chill at my place after. I have never run into any issues with this method. However, just as a point of reference, check out some of the OLD profiles ladies have up. Read up on the first date section and you will see a ton of women who expect to be wined and dined from the onset.

 

What some women expect, and what you agree to before meeting them don't necessarily have to align. right?

 

If you meet her on OLD then suggest a bar not a restaurant as a first meet. Guys do have a say in the matter.

I mean if she insists she needs to be fed, then you know you are looking at a "hungry" one. Hungry for your pocket that is....

Edited August 30, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Shining One]

I don't want to be date 24 of the month, I'm not keen on having sex early to prove a point, and I don't want to be seating next to guy who is weighing my relationship potential on the expectation that I should or shouldn't pay for a meal within a certain timescale.

 

So you see, apples and oranges.

Fair enough. I think I get your point of view. However, as you can see from this thread, there are women who determine a man is not relationship material if he doesn't pay for a meal/date on the first meet. By comparison, I'm quite lenient.

[salparadise]

Are you saying you would be okay with a man not once reaching for the check in the first four dates with you?

 

 

See that's the thing... generosity of spirit looks quite different depending on whether you're wearing the pants or the skirt. What they're really saying is I like being the recipient of generosity... I'll buy you an ice cream and we'll call it even.

 

And I agree with enigma... that slow reach thing––transparent and distasteful.

 

What's really interesting is how much diversity there is in attitudes, and how difficult it is to communicate or make known what the expectations are.

[introverted1]

What some women expect, and what you agree to before meeting them don't necessarily have to align. right?

 

If you meet her on OLD then suggest a bar not a restaurant as a first meet. Guys do have a say in the matter.

I mean if she insists she needs to be fed, then you know you are looking at a "hungry" one. Hungry for your pocket that is....

 

Where there's a will...

 

I recently had a first date with a guy. Drinks (I had a glass of wine while he had 3 mixed drinks). He bought. I thanked him and said I'd get it next time.

 

On date #2, we again met for drinks but, this time, he ordered dinner, too. So the bill was pretty big. I paid (and graciously) but I can definitely see why guys feel used and abused when women casually up the ante and still expect to have their evening paid for.

 

I am a big fan of keeping early dates inexpensive -- an ice cream and a walk on the beach are fine with me. Then, it doesn't really matter who pays. The focus can be on getting to know each other and, if it doesn't work out, no one has taken a financial hit. Win win.

[PrettyEmily77]

See that's the thing... generosity of spirit looks quite different depending on whether you're wearing the pants or the skirt. What they're really saying is I like being the recipient of generosity... I'll buy you an ice cream and we'll call it even.

 

Who are 'they'?

 

 

It's not like most men are sitting there with a calculator figuring out how much we are paying to hang out with a girl. It's more like, "Ok, this is date 5, and she has never once put any effort in to pay for any of these dates, or at least return the sentiment by cooking me dinner, anything. This is probably a selfish woman."

 

I don't know, man. I really don't know many women who would expect that sort of treatment without any type of reciprocation at all and frankly, I'm struggling to take that at face value.

 

And If you do clearly state your expectations from the start without ambiguity (it could even be worth mentioning something to that effect in your profile thing), you may not be running into these issues seemingly so frequently.

 

Plus you are in competition with guys who wouldn't bat an eyelid at grabbing the bill every single time without expectations or it causing a major fit - in my professional and social circle, they are the overwhelming majority (cultural differences no doubt).

[xxoo]

.

 

Plus you are in competition with guys who wouldn't bat an eyelid at grabbing the bill every single time without expectations or it causing a major fit - in my professional and social circle, they are the overwhelming majority (cultural differences no doubt).

 

That's the bottom line. Many men simply want to pay when they are highly interested in a woman, and that's very attractive behavior.

[xxoo]

 

Sounds a lot like prostitution to me. Give a girl money and suddenly she finds me attractive.

 

Filtering out men who see no differences between courtship and prostitution is a nice side benefit

[introverted1]

That's the bottom line. Many men simply want to pay when they are highly interested in a woman, and that's very attractive behavior.

 

It is attractive behavior.

 

But that doesn't mean I let him act on it.

[Sunkissedpatio]

I can certainly see the guys' perspective on this topic and empathize.

 

Like Enigma said it's not the kind of thing you can just put out there early on or incorporate into an OLD profile "I refuse to be taken for a ride" (of course that is a gross exaggeration) but no matter how you word it that will be the subtext. And that in itself reeks of guy with baggage and huge chip on his shoulder, no different than a woman hinting at how she will not go out with you if you are a liar and a cheat just looking for sex. It just makes "those types" of people conceal their agendas harder.

 

You kind of just have to suss it out over a date or two.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Shining One]

That's the bottom line. Many men simply want to pay when they are highly interested in a woman, and that's very attractive behavior.

Sounds a lot like prostitution to me. Give a girl money and suddenly she finds me attractive.

Filtering out men who see no differences between courtship and prostitution is a nice side benefit

To be fair, there is a significant difference between a woman saying: "I find it attractive when a man spends money on me" and a woman saying: "My attraction to a man is contingent on him spending money on me". I believe xxoo was saying the former while engima32 is referring to the later. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[PrettyEmily77]

You don't need to take my word for it, just take the word of pretty much every other guy in this thread who has said they have run into women like this on numerous occasions. It's not like I am making this crap up. Not worth the effort.

 

 

 

Stating expectations is not as effective as you think. I can see it now, me telling a woman I don't want to date selfish, entitled women. I am sure that any selfish entitled woman would then admit her selfish nature and bow out of the date

 

 

 

This is really what it comes down to, right here. If a woman has the option to only date guys who throw money at them, they are gonna take it. Can't really say I blame them. I mean, if 90% of the women I met always paid for everything for me, I might get a little ratted if some woman actually wanted me to pay my own way, like I did not deserve her money or something. The nerve!.

 

1. I've read the thread - given it's a thread highlighting the issue, that would be predictable. Yet there are also plenty of men on that very thread (re read it without the bias) who say paying on dates is no issue for them. Plenty. That's your competition. There are also a few women on this very thread who said it doesn't apply to them. So point not proven, sorry.

 

2. Right, so what you want is to give the impression that you are a 'giver' (with money, on dates) to appeal to as many women as possible.

 

It is perfectly possible to word it without looking like a jackass, I'm sorry. Something like 'I am looking for equality at all levels in a relationship from the first date' (that'a draft, you can refine it yourself). That will set the tone and reassure women that you mean you are all about sharing everything (you know, chores, time, etc.) , not just paying on dates, which is one detail when you look at the bigger picture of what forms a potential relationship.

 

3. That's what you should be whining about - if your competition is made of 90% of men willing to pay for all dates, that's your issue right here, not 'entitled and selfish women' (or whatever).

[salparadise]

This is really what it comes down to, right here. If a woman has the option to only date guys who throw money at them, they are gonna take it. Can't really say I blame them. I mean, if 90% of the women I met always paid for everything for me, I might get a little ratted if some woman actually wanted me to pay my own way, like I did not deserve her money or something. The nerve!

 

^This. It's entitlement... integrated so deeply, believed so completely that they are annoyed and offended if a man doesn't presume them to be sitting high on a pedestal and express his deference to their status as highly desirable, worthy of being woo'd and pursued like a trophy. They love being treated as the esteemed guest of honor where their value is presumed, but his has to be earned... and she sits in judgement assessing whether he is worthy of her attention and company.

 

And before you doth protest too much, pretty-pretty Emily, I'm not saying these are conscious thoughts, I'm saying this is an attitude that is so thoroughly integrated that you can't even see it.

 

It's the flip side of the privilege that feminists say men presume and can't see... like how a fish completely clueless as to what you have when you mix two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.

 

3. That's what you should be whining about - if your competition is made of 90% of men willing to pay for all dates, that's your issue rig.ht here, not 'entitled and selfish women' (or whatever).

 

Competition, eh? I couldn't have said it better. Some women and men intend to transcend this concept of the vagina competition. And apparently some don't.

[Sunkissedpatio]

3. That's what you should be whining about - if your competition is made of 90% of men willing to pay for all dates, that's your issue right here, not 'entitled and selfish women' (or whatever).

 

That's a really good point right there!

 

In all my years of dating (I've had a LOT ) I don't think I have ever encountered a man that didn't offer to pay in those initial dates. I don't think I ever went out with a guy that wanted to go Dutch or that just didn't insist on paying.

 

Maybe some of us got "lucky" or maybe that is a proven fact that for all the complaining, most men will and do pay and insist on it and want to do it again. So there is definitely some truth to that comment above regarding all the competition out there. If you don't, 10 others will. If they begrudge it behind closed doors it was never made obvious to me. And I can rest assured that one way or another what came my way will come back around their way so it does even the score.

 

And making dinner at home, which becomes a regular occurrence once we settle down pretty much has fallen on my lap of "chores" which I am happy to do. Yet we both work and pull long hours when we need to at work and come home equally tired and drained...

[xxoo]

That's a really good point right there!

 

In all my years of dating (I've had a LOT ) I don't think I have ever encountered a man that didn't offer to pay in those initial dates. I don't think I ever went out with a guy that wanted to go Dutch or that just didn't insist on paying.

 

Maybe some of us got "lucky" or maybe that is a proven fact that for all the complaining, most men will and do pay and insist on it and want to do it again. So there is definitely some truth to that comment above regarding all the competition out there. If you don't, 10 others will. If they begrudge it behind closed doors it was never made obvious to me. And I can rest assured that one way or another what came my way will come back around their way so it does even the score.

 

And making dinner at home, which becomes a regular occurrence once we settle down pretty much has fallen on my lap of "chores" which I am happy to do. Yet we both work and pull long hours when we need to at work and come home equally tired and drained...

 

That last paragraph made me laugh. In exchange for paying for the majority of our dating meals, I have cooked dinner for my husband daily for decades

 

It does seem quite pointless to complain about what people are attracted to, whether that is a physical trait or a personality trait. The people with the most attractive traits have an advantage. Paying is just one example.

[Shining One]

And making dinner at home, which becomes a regular occurrence once we settle down pretty much has fallen on my lap of "chores" which I am happy to do. Yet we both work and pull long hours when we need to at work and come home equally tired and drained...

I've been the better and primary (usually the only) cook in all but two of my relationships. Woggle mentioned this earlier:

If you are a woman that wants a man to hold up his end of the traditional roles you should hold up your end as well. If you want to feel feminine then act like it. I believe in more modern roles but I know tradition is a two way street. I think much of what you see from men these days is resentment against it only being expected one way.

There are women out there who expect/require a man to fulfill the traditional "man pays" role but then don't fulfill the traditional "woman cooks" role.

[insert_name]

Who are 'they'?

 

 

 

 

I don't know, man. I really don't know many women who would expect that sort of treatment without any type of reciprocation at all and frankly, I'm struggling to take that at face value.

 

And If you do clearly state your expectations from the start without ambiguity (it could even be worth mentioning something to that effect in your profile thing), you may not be running into these issues seemingly so frequently.

 

Plus you are in competition with guys who wouldn't bat an eyelid at grabbing the bill every single time without expectations or it causing a major fit - in my professional and social circle, they are the overwhelming majority (cultural differences no doubt).

 

Yeah I've heard about these guys who are always paying for stuff. What are they called again....'Nice Guys' something like that?

 

From the way women talk about them...they ain't competition.