Miss Spider Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) A lot of people believe that who asks pays, but this all varies depending upon location, age group, who you ask and how they were raised They rationale is that since you want their company, you pay? I never got that. If they're agreeing to it, they want your company too, so why are you not paying for your own food? This doesn't make any sense to me why men are expected to pay for a woman's food and other leftovers from an era that needed to go. I feel like who women like "chivalry" (as in what men ought to do and what women ought to do )don't understand its history or something. Edited July 19, 2017 by Cookiesandough Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 When you're talking about dates, definitely whoever asks is who pays unless someone just volunteers to help out, which a lot of people will. Like they buy concert tickets, I buy the drinks. Or I pay the tip or something. But the same isn't true for if you're just inviting a friend out to eat and you just reach whatever agreement you're both comfortable with. I have one friend who still thinks I should pay if I invite him but then he also seems to think I should pay if he invites me, so.... All my other friends usually just pay for their own, separate check, but then there are a couple of places where that's frowned upon, like I heard it was in NYC. Which is crazy. But a date is a person offering to take another person out and entertain them. Once people are a real couple, certainly at that point, they should discuss their financial abilities and preferences and see if they can come to some mutually agreeable situation -- but this very thing is what breaks up a lot of couples because you have one who wants to spend nothing and one who wants to maybe live beyond his means and expects the other one to waste her money too. Or you have difference in food preferences. One of my younger bfs only liked to eat McNuggets, and I like restaurants, not fast food. So the only time we could agree on anything about food was when NOT eating out and if I cooked the meal, paid for it, and then he'd enjoy eating it, but that wasn't much fun for me. Eventually we just started eating ice cream because it was the one thing we could agree on. Part of settling on a person is finding one who is on the same page with you. And the more extreme you are in either direction, the more people in the middle aren't interested in you. If a couple is going to agree to mostly split the check or take turns paying, then both also get to choose the restaurant and take turns doing that. And then you run into, Well, I don't like Chinese, so I'm not going. To be a couple, you have to agree on most things like that to make it work. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Hmmm Is a date really about one person having to entertain the other. I don't see it that way. Like, I don't agree to a date with the idea "now amuse me" "impress me now". Have I been doing it wrongs If a guy asks me out and I agree it's because I have mutual interest in getting to know the person to see if there is a romantic connection. I see it no diff then two friends going out in the beginning except there is sexual/romantic attraction 2 Link to post Share on other sites
salparadise Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 When you're talking about dates, definitely whoever asks is who pays... Preraph, you crack me up sometimes. You might as well say that whomever has the XY chromosome arrangement pays, because you know damn well that an XX never asks an XY out to dinner. The XX prompts the XY to ask by dropping her hankie, allowing XY to swoop in and... another 19th century convention that ought to be abolished. If you prefer to be wined and dined just call it that. As many of you know, my most recent relationship was with a progressive, liberal, highly educated, socially adept woman. On our first date, when the check came, I placed my card on the tray and she placed her's beside it. I offered to cover it and she graciously said, "thanks but I prefer that we split it." She said that in a gentle, firm manner so as to let me know that she didn't subscribe to the traditional gender entitlement mentality. She asserted her autonomy and values in a way that set the tone for how things would be going forward. The next morning she sent the first text message (we had only communicated on the dating site) saying, "I had a nice time and hope we can do it again soon." No waiting around wondering, or leaving it up to me to figure out if she was interested. I found that extremely attractive. We dated a year and a half, and though we didn't keep score it was always approximately equal. She was reciprocal in other aspects of the relationship as well. She wasn't controlling or a princess, and didn't have the dreaded masculine energy either. I've dated quite a few women (once or twice) since that ended and found that only a few offered to split the tab and meant it. They also happened to be the ones that I considered relationship quality (not only for that reason). About one-fourth make no offer to contribute––just sit there and watch you pay, more than half do the slow reach expecting to be told to put their money away, and fewer than twenty percent preferred to split and weren't faking it. I think this is a pretty good barometer for identifying smart, progressive women... but I still haven't been able to bring myself to suggest to the entitlement types that we split the check. I've paid enough for women that I have no intention of seeing again to have become more discerning though. I really do not like the feeling I'm left with knowing I just got played for a chump. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
salparadise Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Hmmm Is a date really about one person having to entertain the other. I don't see it that way. Like, I don't agree to a date with the idea "now amuse me" "impress me now". Have I been doing it wrongs If a guy asks me out and I agree it's because I have mutual interest in getting to know the person to see if there is a romantic connection. Nope. It's about a mutual interest, and to see if there's a connection. I see no rational reason why a woman should show up with an attitude of entitlement, or a man thinking he has to out peacock anyone to be worthy of her company. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Miss Spider Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Next date I go on I am going in like 'Amuse me, you peon. I am not yet entertained. I grace you with my presence and you have the impudence to mock me with this mediocre display!' 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SevenCity Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Preraph, you crack me up sometimes. You might as well say that whomever has the XY chromosome arrangement pays, because you know damn well that an XX never asks an XY out to dinner. The XX prompts the XY to ask by dropping her hankie, allowing XY to swoop in and... another 19th century convention that ought to be abolished. If you prefer to be wined and dined just call it that. As many of you know, my most recent relationship was with a progressive, liberal, highly educated, socially adept woman. On our first date, when the check came, I placed my card on the tray and she placed her's beside it. I offered to cover it and she graciously said, "thanks but I prefer that we split it." She said that in a gentle, firm manner so as to let me know that she didn't subscribe to the traditional gender entitlement mentality. She asserted her autonomy and values in a way that set the tone for how things would be going forward. The next morning she sent the first text message (we had only communicated on the dating site) saying, "I had a nice time and hope we can do it again soon." No waiting around wondering, or leaving it up to me to figure out if she was interested. I found that extremely attractive. We dated a year and a half, and though we didn't keep score it was always approximately equal. She was reciprocal in other aspects of the relationship as well. She wasn't controlling or a princess, and didn't have the dreaded masculine energy either. I've dated quite a few women (once or twice) since that ended and found that only a few offered to split the tab and meant it. They also happened to be the ones that I considered relationship quality (not only for that reason). About one-fourth make no offer to contribute––just sit there and watch you pay, more than half do the slow reach expecting to be told to put their money away, and fewer than twenty percent preferred to split and weren't faking it. I think this is a pretty good barometer for identifying smart, progressive women... but I still haven't been able to bring myself to suggest to the entitlement types that we split the check. I've paid enough for women that I have no intention of seeing again to have become more discerning though. I really do not like the feeling I'm left with knowing I just got played for a chump. That reminds me of a story from a few years back. I was working in the city and me and my married friend were friendly with these two girls in his group. The girls suggested we go out to lunch (I later found out one of them had a crush on me). As we were all coworkers we went out as friends. When the bill came, both women sat there with their arms folded not even acknowledging the check. My friend had to actually say something and snap them back to reality and get them to open up their purses to contribute to their meals. They we're both visibly upset. I was amazed at the behavior but also realized that neither of them probably paid for a meal when out with a man. My buddy and I had a good laugh about the horror they experienced by paying their own way for a lunch they had setup. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 That reminds me of a story from a few years back. I was working in the city and me and my married friend were friendly with these two girls in his group. The girls suggested we go out to lunch (I later found out one of them had a crush on me). As we were all coworkers we went out as friends. When the bill came, both women sat there with their arms folded not even acknowledging the check. My friend had to actually say something and snap them back to reality and get them to open up their purses to contribute to their meals. They we're both visibly upset. I was amazed at the behavior but also realized that neither of them probably paid for a meal when out with a man. My buddy and I had a good laugh about the horror they experienced by paying their own way for a lunch they had setup. Where did you meet all these women? When a bunch of friends go out and the check arrives, the first thing is to divide the total by the number of people (maybe excluding kids if some friends bring their kids). I don't see how anyone can just sit there doing nothing... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SevenCity Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Where did you meet all these women? When a bunch of friends go out and the check arrives, the first thing is to divide the total by the number of people (maybe excluding kids if some friends bring their kids). I don't see how anyone can just sit there doing nothing... These were girls we worked with. The entitlement carries even into the platonic. I later found out the one who liked me (I wasn't interested) had a guy offering to take her to Europe expense free. Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 (edited) A few years ago, a relative of mine introduced a guy friend to me who was coming to my area for a brief visit, just in case he needed someone to show him around. When the guy arrived, he asked me to get dinner. I accepted as friends (only later learned that he was interested in that way, as he thought my relative was trying to set us up). Toward the end of the dinner, the waiter put the check on his side of the table without us asking for the check. I saw that the check was sitting there for a good 10 mins without any hint that he's trying to figure out our payments, so I grabbed the check and put my credit card on the tray. He started to slowly reaching for his wallet. Not wanting to be petty, I said I'll get it... p.s. The guy was Asian, if it matters. Edited July 19, 2017 by JuneL 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 All of them are University graduates and work as professionals. They are all Chinese and + 40 years old. Now they are married and all of them providing their revenue to the family expenses. They are generous women with their husband, family and friends and I cherish their friendship a great deal. The point still remains that the dating phase is different than being in an established relationship with them. Lol I am strictly speaking dating scene here. This sounds more the norm in my parents generation. But then people at that time in their cultural norm also don't date around much. So when a woman accepts to go on the first date, there is a good chancge things will escalate to a serious relationship fairly quickly. You know, going on a first date is more like making the deposit for securing a serious relationship for them Link to post Share on other sites
lovephule Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The other week we were casually talking about it over dinner, and he said where he's from (New York) woman are very independent and always just pay their half. This is the first I've heard of such a thing, lifelong (knock wood) New Yorker. (Hi, I'm new!) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SevenCity Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 This is the first I've heard of such a thing, lifelong (knock wood) New Yorker. (Hi, I'm new!) Im thinking that may have been a line Link to post Share on other sites
phineas Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Lol! Right on brother!!! I sound harsh but let's be real here. women over 40 are not spring chickens and need to lose the princess attitude or get themselves a box of cats. The only women i know over 40 with chit jobs with well to do BF's are with guys pushing 60 who feel like king chit cause their with a much younger hot woman. but those women are cheating on those guys with men their own age. Why? duh! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 You have misunderstood me. I meant the expectations coming from the guys. I felt very bad when I was first dating my current boyfriend, as he insisted on paying for me. Then I realized it's petty to fight with him, as I can contribute in other aspects (cooking him meals, making him small gifts. etc.). Actually for some of us financially independent women who have always paid their own way (and have been generous with our family and friends), we have the opposite problem: we have to learn to be okay for our guys to treat us to dates. You know, I have realized it's a cute dynamic to let your guy take you out so that you can have an excuse to get him something thoughtful Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 Next date I go on I am going in like 'Amuse me, you peon. I am not yet entertained. I grace you with my presence and you have the impudence to mock me with this mediocre display!' I almost needed the Heimlich maneuver for this because i had just taken a bite of leftover steak lol I'm not a man but I'd pay for your dinner just for that joke Of course, I'd expect you to pay for MY humor the next time 1 Link to post Share on other sites
knabe Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I sound harsh but let's be real here. women over 40 are not spring chickens and need to lose the princess attitude or get themselves a box of cats. The only women i know over 40 with chit jobs with well to do BF's are with guys pushing 60 who feel like king chit cause their with a much younger hot woman. but those women are cheating on those guys with men their own age. Why? duh! I confess I know a few over 40's who peaked in high school and are still trying to milk it with Plexus, Spanx and those add-a-cup VS bras.... BUT As a 40-something with education, a good job, and an amazing equal partner (who is really fun to look at, and for some reason he thinks I am gorgeous too), I'm a little stung by this generalization. I'm no princess....but I did once stay at a Holiday Inn Express PS princess and my age are relevant because topic and princess expecting to be paid for and age and blah blah blah 1 Link to post Share on other sites
phineas Posted July 20, 2017 Share Posted July 20, 2017 I confess I know a few over 40's who peaked in high school and are still trying to milk it with Plexus, Spanx and those add-a-cup VS bras.... BUT As a 40-something with education, a good job, and an amazing equal partner (who is really fun to look at, and for some reason he thinks I am gorgeous too), I'm a little stung by this generalization. I'm no princess....but I did once stay at a Holiday Inn Express PS princess and my age are relevant because topic and princess expecting to be paid for and age and blah blah blah Did I say all women? No. I was referring to the types of women op seems to be meeting. I know plenty of women like the one's op chases. too many. I freindzoned them so to speak when i figured them out. they don't dress like they are in college but they party like it, they expect everyone to wait for them and they have a universe of orbiters to call up when they go out so they don't have to pay for anything. They are fun in bed but they would have to be because that's all they really have to offer a guy. Can't understand why OP insist on wasting his time with these types of women. Link to post Share on other sites
SevenCity Posted July 21, 2017 Share Posted July 21, 2017 Did I say all women? No. I was referring to the types of women op seems to be meeting. I know plenty of women like the one's op chases. too many. I freindzoned them so to speak when i figured them out. they don't dress like they are in college but they party like it, they expect everyone to wait for them and they have a universe of orbiters to call up when they go out so they don't have to pay for anything. They are fun in bed but they would have to be because that's all they really have to offer a guy. Can't understand why OP insist on wasting his time with these types of women. Those aren't exactly the type of women I am referencing (I know that type too). As stated, the ones in the OP were not where they should have been financially or maturity wise but not exactly party girls. There were others I've dated with equal or higher income and had the same entitlement. Me me me. I don't waste much time but often it takes a few weeks to figure them out. Link to post Share on other sites
Gr8fuln2020 Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 Instinctively, I, the man, has no problem paying if I am the one who asked her out. In those relati2onships where it has gone beyond 3 or 4, whether I have asked or not, I have had a good number of the ladies offer w/o prompting. I guess I have been lucky. Link to post Share on other sites
Bastile Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 My preference is to just cover all bases. Plan and pay for dates, because that's leading it where you want it to go. Create a date routine that you run girls through, and then you know where you are in a given moment. Keep the early dates fairly cheap. Literally from initially meeting someone, to first time sex, shouldn't cost more than £100. That's covering everything you need to cover as a man. It's dodging the provider (borefriend) box, it's leading and being assertive, it's escalating sexually, it's dealing with logistics, etc etc. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SevenCity Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 My preference is to just cover all bases. Plan and pay for dates, because that's leading it where you want it to go. Create a date routine that you run girls through, and then you know where you are in a given moment. Keep the early dates fairly cheap. Literally from initially meeting someone, to first time sex, shouldn't cost more than £100. That's covering everything you need to cover as a man. It's dodging the provider (borefriend) box, it's leading and being assertive, it's escalating sexually, it's dealing with logistics, etc etc. Converted to USD, that's about $117. Seems fair. I think I've been hovering around $150. Though one dinner can easily exceed that amount if you're not careful. My issue has been maintaining attraction once these women start to show their true colors. Some of them would have made good FBs but they all want a RL. I do too, just not with these women. As I really don't like dating or multi dating I get very dissapointed when I make the determination that a girl is not LTR material. I recall this one (probably the hottest body on girl I've ever dated, great job, very intelligent) and she acted up on the phone prior to our 3rd date and I was all "Damnit! She is not LTR material!" (And further proved it by being very selfish sexually). I have this realization at some point with all of them and I often feel it's not worth the headaches. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 With the special problems created with Old I think most women except for divas are going to understand that the first date or two need not be a full-on wine and dine until you at least know you like each other a little at which point you start to find out each others habits including activities and Financial enough to move forward or call quits. Link to post Share on other sites
JuneL Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 My preference is to just cover all bases. Plan and pay for dates, because that's leading it where you want it to go. Create a date routine that you run girls through, and then you know where you are in a given moment. Keep the early dates fairly cheap. Literally from initially meeting someone, to first time sex, shouldn't cost more than £100. That's covering everything you need to cover as a man. It's dodging the provider (borefriend) box, it's leading and being assertive, it's escalating sexually, it's dealing with logistics, etc etc. How many dates does that cover usually? Link to post Share on other sites
littleblackheart Posted July 22, 2017 Share Posted July 22, 2017 (edited) I am starting to think that maybe this paying for dates issue is just a case of these men who are complaining about all those entitled women possibly not being totally ready to fully invest in someone due to the traumatic breakup of a relationship or marriage they did invest in heart and soul, and repeating bad patterns of behaviour by going for the same types of women over and over again. I now believe it's less about entitlement or generosity than it about the ghosts of a broken heart not yet fully healed. Edited July 22, 2017 by littleblackheart Link to post Share on other sites
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