Why do people always tell lonely guys to try dating unattractive girls?

[ZA Dater]

^^^this^^^

And this is where some men fall down, there is a distinct lack of good personality traits or a distinct inability to put their good personality traits on show.

Dating is about marketing goods, you have to first identify your target audience, make sure your product is acceptable to that audience, then sell, sell, sell.

Target audiences are very important, most feel safe within their own demographic. Most do not want to step out into unknown territory. They may be flattered, but some are suspicious of the motives of those who ask them out from a different part of town, from a different social class, from a different educational background, from a different age group, from a different race/country etc. In order to be accepted there has to be some link identified, some point of reference. Randomly asking random women out is destined to fail IMO.

 

Most "unattractive" guys I know who are successful with women IRL are persistent in their pursuit. I DO NOT mean they stalk women or are nasty to women or pursue women who definitely aren't interested, I just mean they don't take no for an answer, from women who seem interested, but do not say yes when directly asked out.

They continue to sell their "product" to her and that is where personality comes in again, and they eventually manage to persuade her to say yes to a date. It is a build up from a position of weakness to a stronger position, and many women like to see that determination.

 

Really good post. The problem for me is how do you determine definitively if someone is not interested? How do you know someone is interested?

 

I agree its marketing, totally true hence I try to find the very rare person I do click with intellectually and then try my best but if I am honest I am working with a very inexperienced hand so I basically just wing it and be myself, take an interest in them, maintain eye contact, try make them laugh.

 

Even when the extremely almost non existence occasion happens and I do manage to do all of the above, it still fails.

 

How do you get to a stronger position, flowers I have through experience deduced don't work, nor do gifts, nor does trying to e mail flirt.

[elaine567]

Here's a snippet from a profile on POF:

 

"im a young 46 year old..like to have a laugh... If you're over the age of 50 with or without pic don't waste your time messaging me cos I'm not interested and you won't get a reply. Guys I know I'm fat but if you're fat yourself please don't message me as I like my men to be slim average or with muscles and the thought of two fat people having sex yuck the thought repulses me."

 

Yet it's guys who accused of being delusional and entitled, merely for wanting somebody whose weight begins with a 1 instead of a 2!

 

Yes and that did the rounds and everyone had a good laugh and it is NOW "proof" that fat women and of course women in general (apart from hotties) are all "horrible" people with unrealistic expectations.

She is just a 46 yo woman looking for love. I do not believe anyone should be ridiculed publicly for their dating profile in the way she has. To do so is mean spirited IMO.

She has every right to post her preferences in the same way as everyone else.

She is being honest, she is not leading anyone on, she is not wasting anyone's time, she has simply made it crystal clear, who she will not reply to. Is that a bad thing?

[JuneJulySeptember]

^^^this^^^

And this is where some men fall down, there is a distinct lack of good personality traits or a distinct inability to put their good personality traits on show.

Dating is about marketing goods, you have to first identify your target audience, make sure your product is acceptable to that audience, then sell, sell, sell.

Target audiences are very important, most feel safe within their own demographic. Most do not want to step out into unknown territory. They may be flattered, but some are suspicious of the motives of those who ask them out from a different part of town, from a different social class, from a different educational background, from a different age group, from a different race/country etc. In order to be accepted there has to be some link identified, some point of reference. Randomly asking random women out is destined to fail IMO.

 

Most "unattractive" guys I know who are successful with women IRL are persistent in their pursuit. I DO NOT mean they stalk women or are nasty to women or pursue women who definitely aren't interested, I just mean they don't take no for an answer, from women who seem interested, but do not say yes when directly asked out.

They continue to sell their "product" to her and that is where personality comes in again, and they eventually manage to persuade her to say yes to a date. It is a build up from a position of weakness to a stronger position, and many women like to see that determination.

 

The way you describe it, dating is more like getting a job and less like making friends.

 

And if that is the case, you really can't blame men for giving up. Who wants to feel like they need to convince a woman to date them by beating out 15 other guys?

 

Is that what love is?

[Els]

The advice to date someone you find unattractive is ludicrous and plain wrong, for either men or women. Not only is it unfair to yourself, it's unfair to the person you're stringing along. And trust me, they WILL eventually find out - nobody is capable of continuously putting effort into a relationship they're settling for.

 

Being advised to think beyond just the physical is an entirely different thing, and not nearly as ludicrous, as you would still be attracted to the person, just for a variety of reasons instead of purely physical (many of which, like personality, help you find someone whom you can actually be happy with for the long term). But that depends on whether or not it is actually possible to alter your pattern of attraction - I'm on the fence about that.

[ZA Dater]

But that depends on whether or not it is actually possible to alter your pattern of attraction - I'm on the fence about that.

 

I think you can, the most amazing person I met wasn't the hottest physically (though she was above average) but it was her personality which really, really attracted me to her.

 

The problem with this kind of attraction is relatively speaking once you have experienced an amazing personality its all you ever want and when you get rejected its ever more brutal because you really were captivated by the personality and looks combination. In my experience that is a very rare combination.

[AD1980]

I agree it's not like unattractive women find us any better looking..if I'm gonna get rejected it might as well be by a women I find attractive..

 

Also as much as I struggle with women I could never be with a women I find unattractive physically..Doesn't mean I'm only attracted to hot women I find a lot of women attractive but if rather be alone then with a women I have no attraction to physically at all.

[AD1980]

^^^this^^^

And this is where some men fall down, there is a distinct lack of good personality traits or a distinct inability to put their good personality traits on show.

Dating is about marketing goods, you have to first identify your target audience, make sure your product is acceptable to that audience, then sell, sell, sell.

Target audiences are very important, most feel safe within their own demographic. Most do not want to step out into unknown territory. They may be flattered, but some are suspicious of the motives of those who ask them out from a different part of town, from a different social class, from a different educational background, from a different age group, from a different race/country etc. In order to be accepted there has to be some link identified, some point of reference. Randomly asking random women out is destined to fail IMO.

 

Most "unattractive" guys I know who are successful with women IRL are persistent in their pursuit. I DO NOT mean they stalk women or are nasty to women or pursue women who definitely aren't interested, I just mean they don't take no for an answer, from women who seem interested, but do not say yes when directly asked out.

They continue to sell their "product" to her and that is where personality comes in again, and they eventually manage to persuade her to say yes to a date. It is a build up from a position of weakness to a stronger position, and many women like to see that determination.

 

I'm sorry but I want to keep some dignity I'm not gonna beg a women to date me..I take a no as a no and move on..

[Mrlonelyone]

Interesting article.

 

Soo... When a struggling guy becomes a 40 year old virgin he uses his money he has to..convince... a 20 year old girl to be his wife?

 

Unfortunately then is the girl really attracted to the man? Or is she attracted to the money and upgrade in lifestyle from what she could of been living with a more attractive but poorer 20 year old guy?

 

As for the less attractive women in my experience they are not more likely to say yes, they still reject you just like everybody else.

 

No when that man is 20 years old he bangs the women he can get but he does not marry just anyone.

[Mrlonelyone]

Whenever I hear advice like this, I always ask those giving that advice to show me their extensive list of ex-partners who resemble this guy:

 

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/109/597/1199977_large.jpg

 

Exactly!

 

But when you then explain that even those who are obese etc. consider themselves too good for you, you are rounded on and labelled 'entitled'

 

Here's a snippet from a profile on POF:

 

"im a young 46 year old..like to have a laugh... If you're over the age of 50 with or without pic don't waste your time messaging me cos I'm not interested and you won't get a reply. Guys I know I'm fat but if you're fat yourself please don't message me as I like my men to be slim average or with muscles and the thought of two fat people having sex yuck the thought repulses me."

 

Yet it's guys who accused of being delusional and entitled, merely for wanting somebody whose weight begins with a 1 instead of a 2!

 

True true true. I keep in shape, have low blood pressure, good lifting ability, and good endurance. Yet I should settle for someone who can't be bothered to run on a treadmill.

[fardaxel]

Maybe just like a job, if you want to get experience, you have to take the menial roles first.

[Moy]

Yes and that did the rounds and everyone had a good laugh and it is NOW "proof" that fat women and of course women in general (apart from hotties) are all "horrible" people with unrealistic expectations.

She is just a 46 yo woman looking for love. I do not believe anyone should be ridiculed publicly for their dating profile in the way she has. To do so is mean spirited IMO.

She has every right to post her preferences in the same way as everyone else.

She is being honest, she is not leading anyone on, she is not wasting anyone's time, she has simply made it crystal clear, who she will not reply to. Is that a bad thing?

 

Whoa there! Who said anything about hotties? I've never gone for a "hottie" in my life. Why? Because I know that I'm not "hot" enough for a "hottie"

 

"Is that a bad thing?" On the face of it, no. However, we have seen several times on these boards that any man who complains that he has trouble meeting anybody is immediately rounded on and accused of being "shallow" and "entitled" merely for wondering why he keeps getting thrown in the trash by women who deem him unworthy of being acknowledged as a human being. And yet gross double standards from a woman are defended as "looking for love." And WE'RE the ones accused of being shallow. That's right fellas, you need 6-pack abs to meet the standards of morbidly obese women, and if you don't agree with that then YOU'RE shallow and entitled!

 

There was a post on the "Can't Take The Fakeness of OLD" thread where a woman was bemoaning the fact that her 6"1', well educated, rich boyfriend was a loser because he didn't have a fit physique. Wow.

 

I'm beginning to see the narrative on these boards, and it's extremely sexist. As the saying goes, if it wasn't for double standards there'd be no standards at all.

[elaine567]

Whoa there! Who said anything about hotties? I've never gone for a "hottie" in my life. Why? Because I know that I'm not "hot" enough for a "hottie"

 

"Is that a bad thing?" On the face of it, no. However, we have seen several times on these boards that any man who complains that he has trouble meeting anybody is immediately rounded on and accused of being "shallow" and "entitled" merely for wondering why he keeps getting thrown in the trash by women who deem him unworthy of being acknowledged as a human being. And yet gross double standards from a woman are defended as "looking for love." And WE'RE the ones accused of being shallow. That's right fellas, you need 6-pack abs to meet the standards of morbidly obese women, and if you don't agree with that then YOU'RE shallow and entitled!

 

There was a post on the "Can't Take The Fakeness of OLD" thread where a woman was bemoaning the fact that her 6"1', well educated, rich boyfriend was a loser because he didn't have a fit physique. Wow.

 

I'm beginning to see the narrative on these boards, and it's extremely sexist. As the saying goes, if it wasn't for double standards there'd be no standards at all.

 

YOU are doing it again, holding up some other woman as an example that all women are horrible...

Oh dear!

[Moy]

YOU are doing it again, holding up some other woman as an example that all women are horrible...

Oh dear!

 

No I'm not, your attempts at projection and shaming language won't work on me.

 

Do you REALLY think that I'm basing this on ONE person? I'm basing this on a constant stream of attitudes like the above starting from early 2013 when I first signed up on OLD.

[elaine567]

No I'm not, your attempts at projection and shaming language won't work on me.

 

Do you REALLY think that I'm basing this on ONE person? I'm basing this on a constant stream of attitudes like the above starting from early 2013 when I first signed up on OLD.

 

I know you had a hard time on OLD, and that was totally unacceptable. A few months ago I could see you were turning that page, being more positive and moving forward, but recently you appear to have reverted to anger and bitterness again.

I hope you didn't go down the steroid route you talked about at one point.

[Moy]

I know you had a hard time on OLD, and that was totally unacceptable. A few months ago I could see you were turning that page, being more positive and moving forward, but recently you appear to have reverted to anger and bitterness again.

I hope you didn't go down the steroid route you talked about at one point.

 

No, I didn't. Do you know why? Because I shouldn't HAVE to. I shouldn't have to because:

 

a: I'm already in shape (motivated by women's hatred of me for not being attractive enough to be considered worthy of talking to, by the way. Please don't forget that)

 

b: I shouldn't have to inject myself with dangerous substances purely to attract the interest of people who feel that they deserve a guy with muscle mass and less than 10% body fat despite tipping the scales in the region of an NFL linebacker themselves.

 

Of course I'm bitter. I haven't even kissed, held hands with or even had a face-to-face conversation with a woman since 2012 (and no, "do you want any bags?" when doing the weekly shop doesn't count as a conversation.) I'm forced to shut myself away from society because women have decided that I am scum of the earth. The last two years have taught me that I barely deserve to even be alive in the eyes of women. Wouldn't you be a tad bitter having to live like that for years on end? I am literally terrified of women now as I know what I'd get if I stood within ten feet of one.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Moy

[Revolver]

Those girls are busy being the sidechicks to hot guys

[elaine567]

Those girls are busy being the sidechicks to hot guys

 

Stop stirring the pot...

[elaine567]

I am literally terrified of women now as I know what I'd get if I stood within ten feet of one.

 

Have you thought of therapy? Genuine question, I am not being facetious.

[Necris]

No when that man is 20 years old he bangs the women he can get but he does not marry just anyone.

 

Oh okay, 40 maybe a little late, but oh well.

 

What if he doesn't "bang" anyone and truly becomes the 40 year old virgin?

 

Also this guy sounds like easy gold digger prey.

[preraph]

I have to challenge your generality you repeated a couple of times that lonely guys will be rejected even by unattractive girls. Obviously, we're all lonely at times, and most of us still end up with boyfriends and girlfriends. If you're rejected by literally everyone, it may be something more serious than you just being lonely or unattractive. Have you asked a close friend what is hold you back?

 

And I do agree that when guys *and this is important* who have the guts to be social and ask girls out keep getting rejected, it is because they are overestimating their own attractiveness and think they should still be able to date a young slim girl with a reasonably pretty face or figure. Now, for guys who simply aren't confident enough to ask anyone out, that's a different problem, one that is best resolved in the psychologist's chair if it persists past mid-twenties. For every lonely physically unattractive guy out there, there are as many if not more lonely physically unattractive women. It's a simpler answer than for those with social anxiety or extreme shyness, no matter how you look, because if you don't put yourself out there, you can't expect a mate to beam in through your ceiling while you're playing videogames. So if you're at least being social, having friends, and asking women out, you are not too bad off and should eventually find people to date.

[Necris]

Maybe just like a job, if you want to get experience, you have to take the menial roles first.

 

See that's the idea, but in actuality that doesn't make sense.

 

If the girls the guy is truly attracted to don't want him, girls he's not attracted to probably won't want him as well they have their own ideas of what they want in a guy as well and often its no different than the more attractive girls.

 

So the only experience the guy is going to get is the rejection.

 

Plus whatever relationship they have is destined to be bad since both people are settling for each other and are looking for other options.

[preraph]

Moy, for what it's worth, drought since 2012 isn't that long the older you get. Even in my prime in my late 20s/early 30s, I had some droughts that lasted longer than that! As long as you don't let your bitterness show, some woman will come along for you. You keep saying you don't feel that attractive, but you are a big muscley Marine type guy, a type that certain women love. Probably you just need to get out and meet women in more sedate settings like classes or workplace, where people get to know each other because they see you day to day. So change strategies! Take up new strategic positions! Go for it.

[Necris]

I have to challenge your generality you repeated a couple of times that lonely guys will be rejected even by unattractive girls. Obviously, we're all lonely at times, and most of us still end up with boyfriends and girlfriends. If you're rejected by literally everyone, it may be something more serious than you just being lonely or unattractive. Have you asked a close friend what is hold you back?

 

And I do agree that when guys *and this is important* who have the guts to be social and ask girls out keep getting rejected, it is because they are overestimating their own attractiveness and think they should still be able to date a young slim girl with a reasonably pretty face or figure. Now, for guys who simply aren't confident enough to ask anyone out, that's a different problem, one that is best resolved in the psychologist's chair if it persists past mid-twenties. For every lonely physically unattractive guy out there, there are as many if not more lonely physically unattractive women. It's a simpler answer than for those with social anxiety or extreme shyness, no matter how you look, because if you don't put yourself out there, you can't expect a mate to beam in through your ceiling while you're playing videogames. So if you're at least being social, having friends, and asking women out, you are not too bad off and should eventually find people to date.

 

But if you say they are overestimating their own attractiveness doesn't that mean they are pretty confident in themselves? Something alot of people on here always say is the key to attracting women is their confidence?

 

And let's say they are overestimating their own attractiveness if they ask out uglier women what does it mean if they are still being rejected? They should keep going lower and lower?

 

Also not sure about the lonely women thing, sure they exist but most women aren't approaching and getting turned down by guys so they are usually lonely because of very high standards and rejecting every guy or they simply don't get out so no guy knows she is even available or even exists. Even if a girl isn't all that attractive there is a thirsty guy somewhere that wants her, problem is, is he the right guy for her though?

 

I do agree about the extreme shyness thing, if a guy isn't approaching he shouldn't be surprised no one is beating down his door trying to get to him.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Necris

[elaine567]

But if you say they are overestimating their own attractiveness doesn't that mean they are pretty confident in themselves? Something alot of people on here always say is the key to attracting women is their confidence?

Yes, but there is confidence (attractive quality) and over-confidence (non attractive quality).

 

And let's say they are overestimating their own attractiveness if they ask out uglier women what does it mean if they are still being rejected? They should keep going lower and lower?

Well yes maybe, everyone has to find their own target audience. The audience who will accept them.

But it is not as simple as a 10 matches another 10 and a 2 matches another 2. It is not all about attractiveness for many women.

Other things come into play, education, social class, things in common, personality etc.

A guy may be a 10 on the attractiveness scale, but if he is not educated well, or has poor social skills or a dreadful personality, he may as well be a 1 to any woman who is looking for a LTR with an educated man with a good personality and social skills.

Whether she herself is a 1 or a 10 is immaterial, he will be rejected.

[preraph]

OP, your question about if they are overestimating their own attractiveness, doesn't that mean they're confident -- yes and no. If they are overestimating their own attractiveness, it comes off less as confidence and more as delusional and entitled -- and they often wear it as bitterness. That's what people see, and that's not attractive. We all get that way, but got to keep it from showing when dating because neither sex likes it.

 

And lonely women may be hindered by wanting more attractive guys just like men are, or they may simply never be able to get a date because they're fat, flat, ugly, or old or all four. I truly believe there are more women who can't date than men. I've seen men who were not at all attractive still be able to date. And it may be the fact women do not usually ask men out that is the reason why there's more women out there rotting away because no one wants them. That might account for it. Because you do have to work harder if you have no advantages to get a date and many women won't do that because of tradition.

Edited April 29, 2015 by preraph