Is cheating always a poor life choice?

[AlwaysGrowing]

For myself,

 

If one has to dismantle their core beliefs about themselves...to engage in cheating...then it is always the wrong choice. Most who cheat....betray themselves first.

 

That is not to say...that one (after being the cheater) can not come to the conclusion that they have become a better version of themselves.

 

However, I would not say the cheating is what made one believe that they are a better version. For most, it is in the work on themselves in the AFTERMATH of an affair that gets the credit.

 

Two very distinct events.

[Seachan]

Until they both died, I was certain that my mother cheated on my father because he had a bad temper.

 

After they passed away and I started reading up on infidelity, I realized his bad temper was *because* she had cheated.

 

On top of being cheated out of a loving marriage, my dad and I were cheated out of a healthy father/daughter relationship because of my failure to understand his grief.

[oldshirt]

Interesting and thought-provoking questions. I look forward to hearing the various thoughts and opinions on the subject(s)

 

 

I'll share some of my thoughts in bold below.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is cheating always a poor choice for the cheater?

 

 

The moralists and ethicists will hate my answer here but I think that depends wholly on whether they get caught or not.

From the cheaters perspective, it's only a lose if they get caught. It's a win if they get away with it.

As long as they don't get caught, don't get an STD, don't get their ass kicked by their AP's jealous BS and don't get pregnant, cheating is actually a solid score. That's why people risk it all to do it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Is it for some, a good choice?

 

 

Every last one of them thinks so before they take their clothes off. Again, it comes down to if they get caught and whether they suffer any negative consequences.

 

 

Is cheating "the break" for some that they needed in their lives?

 

 

Totally. For some, the validation and confidence and realization that there can be another life out there for them is all they need to make the break and move on.

I may be a bit jaded after being on the forum for a number of years now but I sincerely believe that in the real world, very very few people ever leave their nonabusive spouse without having some form of contact outside the marriage first.

There may be abused spouses that leave with the clothes on their back without having some kind of extramarital experience or some kind of back-up plan, but other than that I think it is very rare that anyone leaves their non-abusive spouse completely chaste.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are there marriages out there that would never have survived had one partner not cheated?

 

 

 

 

Absolutely. However the question of whether they "should" survive is a whole other question.

I am a big Star Trek fan. In the original series with Kirk and Spock and the guys, there was an episode where they went to a warring planet that had been at war with a neighboring planet for 500 years. But instead of the planet being devasted and rife with disease and famine and despair, it was pristine and orderly and eutopian. The reason for it is they had made warfare neat and orderly and painless where people just voluntarily walked into a disintegration chamber after a computer told them to. Since the computer war took away the pain and misery and despair and horror of real war, instead of the war coming to a natural end with a victor and a defeated, it raged on for 500 years until they could no longer even remember what they were fighting about.

I see affairs as basically doing the same thing. Instead of suffering the misery of a bad marriage and either addressing the issues or ending the marriage, getting your fun and thrills on the downlow just prolongs the passage of time spent in an unfulfilling marriage.

People's needs get met outside the marriage and so they just keep on keeping on and coming home and putting up with the daily grind within the marriage because they know that Tuesday afternoon they'll get their fun.

In the Star Trek episode, Captain Kirk destroyed the computer system and the disintegration chambers so that the warring planets would either have to come to the negotiation table and discuss a peace plan. Or they would have to go to a real war with real guns and real bombs and real bloodshed.

I see affairs the same way. They must be blown up and destroyed so people have to face the reality of their own marriage and either come to the negotiation table or walk away.

Longevity of a marriage is not necessarily the measure of it's success.

 

 

 

 

But is cheating always, in reality, a poor choice for the one doing the cheating?

 

 

Only when they get caught. The BS is often the only one that suffers the repercussions of an undiscovered affair. That is why it is incumbent on the BS to always be vigilant and ready, willing and able to peel back layers and determine if there is any outside activity taking place.

 

 

Are some WSs actually living off the high that cheating brought them for years afterwards?

 

 

I don't know about years. but the affair fog and it's associated hormone rush can take months to wear off and for them to come back down to reality.

 

 

 

 

Did they actually need that in their life to give their life a boost; to inject some drama, something to remember, something to learn from maybe?

 

 

they at least thought so at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

Has cheating made them better people, not to their close circle perhaps, but generally?

 

 

 

 

again, they thought so before the pants hit the floor. Whether they thought so afterwards is open for debate.

From an outside observers standpoint, I don't see how being a WS could ever make someone a better person.

 

 

 

 

If they had to look back on a life well lived, did cheating make their life better, more interesting, more exciting?

 

 

Hmmmm, tough question. From my own experience, I have never cheated on my wife but I have cheated on a couple girlfriends back in my youth.

In looking back now, I enjoyed the experience that I had with the other girls and feel my life would be a little less full than if I had never been with them.

However that is offset by the regret that I hurt someone else in the process.

In looking back 20+ years, my regret in not that I was with other women. My regret is that I stayed with the GFs too long and didn't break up sooner. I don't regret my relationships ended. I regret that I hung on to them too long and didn't experience more freedom.

I think I'm going to have to say from my experience as a young single man in my 20s it all averaged out to somewhere around net-zero.

However if I were to have ruined a marriage and broke up a home and family and subjected minor children to the stress of divorce etc that balance would have definitely been tipped into the negative.

 

[ttfn555]

I have been a BS, it sucks. We divorced, no option, he cheated and still had the girlfriend. I didn't blame her, I felt bad, we have two children, whom he left and I have full custody and raise alone, no $ support. after 5 years he ruined her, she lost her home, her job and lives in someone's spare room. I consider myself lucky.

 

I met a man recently, he said he was separated, I didn't quite figure that part out as my separation was directed at divorce. He was "legally" separated 2.5 years...however, his grown children begged them to try again. I do not want to go thru this with him, I told him to call me if he was ever free. But I continually wonder, " why pick me, a single mom who has been thru hell and back" WHY tell me all of the lies and promises? If they reconcile will their marriage be "perfect" with secret of me? that he told someone else he loved her? I would never want to be his wife, and have my husband keep this from me, knowing also he doesn't love you e(he told her in counseling-Catholic counseling so its purpose is to stay together.) Cheating is never a good a good choice and lying can't help a relationship grow stronger can it? I am out of it, I never willingly wanted to hurt another woman

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Frans de Waal had it right I think. Many people are selfish & feel trapped in stagnant relationships. Many people practice situational morality.

[Winterina]

Nothing in this life is ALWAYS a bad choice. Cheating is most of the time a bad choice.

 

 

But what if you are cheating the cheater? Giving someone taste of their own medicine? What if, after being many times lied to, your level of intimacy has become equal to zero and someone else came into your life for one night? What if someone cheating is not always their fault, but they have been pushed into it after many years of putting up with crap and broken promises, lies, etc?

 

 

This comes from a person that resents cheating, that never cheated anyone, but that is increasingly thinking about it. Why? Because I cannot get my bf any other way to open up his eyes to what he is doing to us when he breaks promises, lies, takes other people's side and then later apologizes for everything and gives all the promises just to break them later. I talked openly. I talked with a louder voice. I talked as a friend. I shouted. I cried. I hit and break things at home hurting myself in the process... I am ready to go to mental institution. He is always very very sorry for his things. He promises nothing like that will ever happen again. He always does them again. So the next thing I can do is cheat on him or just shoot myself in the head. I am just sick and tired of everything.

I do not think I would feel too guilty cheating on someone like this. I started fantasizing about this idea just to get back at him for everything he's ever done to me, to us... Maybe he needs a real wake up call, and not a loyal little woman who always gives him more chances to learn how to be a responsible adult. So let him be the one to suffer for a change.

[fellini]

You could always walk away from him :-)

 

There are two affair types mentioned by Kirshenbaum that you seem likely to follow:

 

"Heating Up Your Marriage affair" and more closely related to your story: "Let's Kill this Relationship and See if It Comes Back to Life affair" (Kirschenbaum: "The idea is that once an affair is discovered, it will deliver a blow that will either kill your relationship or make it stronger. And it often does. The sex becomes much more passionate for some people.")

 

Having an affair isn't the best way to solve relationship problems, but it has worked for some people, obviously, or she wouldn't be writting about it.

 

Nothing in this life is ALWAYS a bad choice. Cheating is most of the time a bad choice.

 

 

But what if you are cheating the cheater? Giving someone taste of their own medicine? What if, after being many times lied to, your level of intimacy has become equal to zero and someone else came into your life for one night? What if someone cheating is not always their fault, but they have been pushed into it after many years of putting up with crap and broken promises, lies, etc?

 

 

This comes from a person that resents cheating, that never cheated anyone, but that is increasingly thinking about it. Why? Because I cannot get my bf any other way to open up his eyes to what he is doing to us when he breaks promises, lies, takes other people's side and then later apologizes for everything and gives all the promises just to break them later. I talked openly. I talked with a louder voice. I talked as a friend. I shouted. I cried. I hit and break things at home hurting myself in the process... I am ready to go to mental institution. He is always very very sorry for his things. He promises nothing like that will ever happen again. He always does them again. So the next thing I can do is cheat on him or just shoot myself in the head. I am just sick and tired of everything.

I do not think I would feel too guilty cheating on someone like this. I started fantasizing about this idea just to get back at him for everything he's ever done to me, to us... Maybe he needs a real wake up call, and not a loyal little woman who always gives him more chances to learn how to be a responsible adult. So let him be the one to suffer for a change.

[Furious]

Nothing in this life is ALWAYS a bad choice. Cheating is most of the time a bad choice.

 

 

But what if you are cheating the cheater? Giving someone taste of their own medicine? What if, after being many times lied to, your level of intimacy has become equal to zero and someone else came into your life for one night? What if someone cheating is not always their fault, but they have been pushed into it after many years of putting up with crap and broken promises, lies, etc?

 

 

This comes from a person that resents cheating, that never cheated anyone, but that is increasingly thinking about it. Why? Because I cannot get my bf any other way to open up his eyes to what he is doing to us when he breaks promises, lies, takes other people's side and then later apologizes for everything and gives all the promises just to break them later. I talked openly. I talked with a louder voice. I talked as a friend. I shouted. I cried. I hit and break things at home hurting myself in the process... I am ready to go to mental institution. He is always very very sorry for his things. He promises nothing like that will ever happen again. He always does them again. So the next thing I can do is cheat on him or just shoot myself in the head. I am just sick and tired of everything.

I do not think I would feel too guilty cheating on someone like this. I started fantasizing about this idea just to get back at him for everything he's ever done to me, to us... Maybe he needs a real wake up call, and not a loyal little woman who always gives him more chances to learn how to be a responsible adult. So let him be the one to suffer for a change.

 

 

Odd, that you'd rather consider cheating on your jerk boyfriend than break up with him.

 

Breaking up with him is a good choice, becoming like him is a bad choice.

[cocorico]

I never really thought about this, until I read what was written above today.

 

Is cheating always a poor choice for the cheater?

Is it for some, a good choice?

Is cheating "the break" for some that they needed in their lives?

Are there marriages out there that would never have survived had one partner not cheated?

 

We in society also go on apace about how bad cheating is, how it is morally wrong, how it impacts people's lives, how it ruins lives too.

And there is no doubt it does.

It causes upset, hassle and stress and the ripples run wide. It is certainly no fun for most people who surround and interact with a cheater.

 

But is cheating always, in reality, a poor choice for the one doing the cheating?

Are some WSs actually living off the high that cheating brought them for years afterwards?

Did they actually need that in their life to give their life a boost; to inject some drama, something to remember, something to learn from maybe?

Has cheating made them better people, not to their close circle perhaps, but generally?

If they had to look back on a life well lived, did cheating make their life better, more interesting, more exciting?

 

I do not have any answers, just asking some questions.

 

I guess it depends on how you classify a "good" or a "poor" life choice. The examples you give are of outcome - where "cheating" brings about a positive outcome. By that token, my H's infidelity would definitely qualify as a "good" life choice, because:

 

1) it led to dissonance and unease within himself, that led him to seek IC, which helped him develop the skills to leave his toxic M;

2) it bought him time, allowing him to survive a little longer in his toxic M until the kids were older and better able to face another split;

3) it showed him what was possible in a R, that not all Rs were dysfunctional, and that it was possible to interact respectfully, with love, maturely;

4) it allowed him to become himself again, to escape from the ill-fitting role he'd been forced into in his M, to revert to his ground state;

5) it allowed him to reconnect with his family, to spend more (and better) time with friends, to become focused on work again, and to overcome his clinical depression;

6) it allowed his kids to live their final high school years in a happy home, to overcome their emotional, social and academic issues, to learn what a good R looks like, and to develop good Rs with older adults;

7) it brought a great deal of happiness to a great number of people, at a relatively minor cost (some additional unhappiness to one already chronically unhappy person).

 

From a utilitarian perspective alone, it would seem like a "good life choice".

Does he feel that way about it? It's hard to give a categorical answer on that - he recognises that, at the time, in that context, to him it felt like the best decision his resources would allow. But he hates that he had to compromise on principles he'd always identified strongly with, and that - however much he'd come to dislike her - he added to the unhappiness of the woman he had, as a kid, undertaken to defend against the world. So to him it's not a cut-and-dried outright win.

[autumnnight]

Maybe it is just word games. But cheating, IMO, is always a deceptive, unfaithful, vow-breaking choice. For people who believe in the importance of honesty, unselfishness, and keeping promises, that would make it a poor choice.

\

For people to whom those things are not important, I guess for them it wouldn't seem like a poor choice. However, I bet whoever they betrayed would disagree.

[merrmeade]

i think living with the constant guilt, shame & paranoia of your little secret someday being discovered is absolutely draining...

 

Not necessarily. You're talking about yourself, projecting how you would feel or how normal, mentally healthy individuals would feel. The fact is it depends on the person's coping mechanisms and issues that caused, or at least allowed, the infidelity to happen in the first place. I've been quite amazed - had no idea - my husband was so adept at rationalization, avoidance and blame-shifting. He altered reality, shifted priorities and worked successfully at hiding then not thinking about whatever made him look bad to others and himself. Even now - well, especially now - one of the first things out of his mouth when I bring up an A-related subject is something like - I don't know; I don't think about that any more. I finally realized that is what he learned from childhood - denial and suppression.

 

Therefore, no, being a WS need not be absolutely draining. Some WSs have many ways of justifying their actions and then putting them - literally - out of their minds.

 

What the BS must do about that is a different topic.

[drifter777]

I think many WS's remember their affair partner with joy & lust and believe that their affair was the most exciting things they ever did in their life. No regrets - period. Even the one's that get busted and successfully reconcile with their BS. For the others, I think some of them decide not to do it again because they don't want to risk their family life or a costly divorce, but not because they have too much respect for their spouse or their marriage. They just do the math and decide that they got away with it once and they should quit while they are ahead.

 

Of course there are WS's who are wracked with guilt and are full of regret. I guess.

[nightmare01]

This is a bit of a triggery question for me.

 

Can having an affair boost a WS esteem and add spice to their life that's missing?

Probably.

 

Can having an affair give a WS good memories to fall back on when times are tough?

Maybe. BUT if I ever discover that my WW had good memories of her and OM our marriage would be over that very day.

 

Can having an affair save or improve a marriage?

I can't see how cheating, abusing, and betraying your partner would improve your relationship with them. I suppose it's possible - but not in my experience.

[nightmare01]

I think many WS's remember their affair partner with joy & lust and believe that their affair was the most exciting things they ever did in their life. No regrets - period. Even the one's that get busted and successfully reconcile with their BS. For the others, I think some of them decide not to do it again because they don't want to risk their family life or a costly divorce, but not because they have too much respect for their spouse or their marriage. They just do the math and decide that they got away with it once and they should quit while they are ahead.

 

Of course there are WS's who are wracked with guilt and are full of regret. I guess.

 

I can only pass on what my WW told me.

 

She felt she was in a low period. Angry at me for working too much. Angry at me for some hurtful things I had said and done. And along came OM.

 

OM was a serial cheater - she knew this, and yet when he offered her "marriage advice" she took it. She believed he was trying to help her (us) with our marriage.

 

So I think there are some few WS that get involved with another person that ends up manipulating them into doing things they would otherwise not do. And once caught up in the affair relationship they find it hard to let go.

 

Once my WW realized how he was manipulating her she lashed out at him and the affair was over. Sadly though this happened after years of their LTA.

[merrmeade]

Everything has a silver lining to some extent, but it is always what's salvaged after the pain and hardship you have to go through. If your marriage is bad and you are not communicating, there have to be better ways to (re)start the process. Affairs always leave damage. The fact that you and your spouse may be able to move on from it and have a "better" marriage does not outweigh the lasting pain that is given to the BS and, therefore, I hope, to yourself.

 

As for cheating that your spouse does not know and you got away with, there is always the chance it will come out later and you will have to deal with it.

I thought this was very good and so edited a tad (sorry - it's what I do for a living) to clarify/reinforce idea.

 

We're really pussyfooting around the WS accountability factor. If I may extrapolate and extend, for those WSs who really reach for remorse — showing and genuinely feeling it while they work on reconciliation together. The ideal:

 

The pain is unavoidable and must be carried equally, simultaneously and knowingly by both the one who inflicted injury as well as the one injured to get to a better, less painful juncture. If the BS's understanding and acceptance is matched by WS insight and verbal acknowledgement, it's a good sign. Wish I had it.

 

The BS needs proof, to see and feel that the WS is doing some hard work to understand. I'd give an eye tooth for it. Instead I get, "How do you know I'm not working?" or whatever the question is. I invariably respond with, "Then, why don't I know that? Why can't you tell me? Why should I assume it or even believe you? I should see and hear it..." Etc. One big circle.

 

One small - maybe not so small - point: The ability of the WS's capacity to "accept" may depend on the kind of shame felt by the WS. If it is crippling, toxic shame, then acceptance is a huge, positive step forward. However, the difference between normal, healthy guilt and toxic shame may not be readily apparent to the BS consumed by other negative emotions. The tricky balance is not to make the WS's progress more important than the BS's. I've discovered that the self-absorption at the root of the toxic shame itself makes that balance difficult if not impossible. By nature, this type of WS's every act, thought and feeling are limited to his/her own self-absorption.

[RoseVille]

Yes but not all choices we as individuals make in life are good for other people, are they?

We break up with people who are in love us, we disappoint our parents sometimes when we move away, we may upset work colleagues/bosses when we change jobs... etc.

Are they also poor choices or are they just individual choices we make for ourselves and by choosing them, we necessarily sometimes upset other people.

 

Yes, this. I've been thinking about this a lot lately.

[RoseVille]

Can having an affair give a WS good memories to fall back on when times are tough?

Maybe. BUT if I ever discover that my WW had good memories of her and OM our marriage would be over that very day.

 

Unless it was a ONS, don't you have to assume that she will have some good memories of the time she spent with this person? He was fulfilling something for her, and that would feel good. That memory doesn't go away...

 

Unless you mean she's hanging on to memories, and savouring them?

 

Can having an affair save or improve a marriage?

I can't see how cheating, abusing, and betraying your partner would improve your relationship with them. I suppose it's possible - but not in my experience.

 

It can serve as a wake-up call to a mutually unfulfilling relationship that work needs to be put back in the M.

[nightmare01]

Unless it was a ONS, don't you have to assume that she will have some good memories of the time she spent with this person? He was fulfilling something for her, and that would feel good. That memory doesn't go away...

 

Unless you mean she's hanging on to memories, and savouring them?

 

That's exactly what I mean. Holding on to memories, savoring them, seeing what they did together as "romantic".

 

It can serve as a wake-up call to a mutually unfulfilling relationship that work needs to be put back in the M.

 

So you are saying that an act that destroyed all trust in the relationship can be a good thing?

 

Once destroyed trust can return, but will IMO never be to what it once was before the betrayal. Any BS that trusts at that level after an affair is IMO a fool and asking to be betrayed again. I think trust might with time and work by both the WS and BS be restored to 95%, but never 100%.

 

Sure, communication skill can improve. But that can only really happen if the WS is completely totally honest with their BS about everything that happened in the affair. If lies by omission remain, or things glossed over or conveniently forgotten, if the BS even suspects they are not being told everything, then I really doubt trust will return to anywhere near what it once was.

 

And without trust, can a couple actually have honest communication? Without honest communication, how is true emotional intimacy even possible?

[drifter777]

Unless it was a ONS, don't you have to assume that she will have some good memories of the time she spent with this person? He was fulfilling something for her, and that would feel good. That memory doesn't go away...

 

I wonder if a ONS is remembered very fondly by a WS as an exciting, flattering, crazy-good sex experience. I think it often is and it is something that makes me sick when I trigger on something and look at my WW.

 

Unless you mean she's hanging on to memories, and savouring them?

 

It can serve as a wake-up call to a mutually unfulfilling relationship that work needs to be put back in the M.

A wake-up call to get yourself to a divorce lawyer?

[Woggle]

I have never seen anything but misery and heartbreak come from cheating.

[violet1]

Yes, I think cheating is always a poor choice. I also believe doing heroin and other hard drugs are always poor choices too. Sometimes people just have to learn the hard way. They have to hit rock bottom before they can fix what they've destroyed. With that said, I don't think poor choices have to define who a person becomes. Learning and growing from our mistakes can be a beautiful journey that makes us become stronger than ever.

[ttfn555]

I agree that you can learn so much from your mistakes, from really admitting your weaknesses. I hope that for my ex-husband whose life is a series of "mistakes" yet seems not to have hit rock bottom.

 

My question here is, what if neither party admits to cheating, no D-Day, if there is no transparency...plenty of people continue marriages out of obligation and fear of the "unknown" and change, can you reconcile for the sake of staying together and nothing deeper than that? some people seem to be able to just go on and deal with the situation