Perspective makes all the difference (Updated)

[minimariah]

This was my guy's ex stance as well. She was happy to drink all night, spend his money and shut him out emotionally. She refused both IC and MC.

 

and all that time... it took him to meet YOU to realize that there was something wrong with this picture? did she change overnight? if not... why did he marry someone like that in the 1st place? did she seduce the poor guy? why didn't he protect his child from this kind of behavior?

 

Refused AA. But oh, once he left... she wanted to meet with their priest to guilt him into coming home.

 

that's not weird at all. he did spend, after all, YEARS convincing both himself and the Xspouse that he was happy. and according to your posts, his Xspouse is an abuser so... let's just say that her perspective is probably a little... well, weird.

 

Part of it also was that he was so used to being treated horribly that he just took it until he realized it didn't have to be that way.

 

so he is coming from an abusive and dysfunctional home, too? because that's the only way someone could think that being treated this way was okay.

 

So yeah, he made the choice to have an affair, then leave. But let us not forget that he was set up for it. Ripe for it. His choice? Yep. Extenuating circumstances? Absolutely.

 

these two things are in contradiction. if he was "set up" - then it wasn't his choice. also - doing the right thing... folks don't know what that means, most of the time. doing the right thing =\= staying in an unhappy marriage out of obligation and only for the kids. people THINK they're doing themselves and their children a favour that way... they don't.

 

i mean, he really wasn't set up for an A. he had a bad marriage and it is clear that he was over with the M for a loooong time, long before you appeared. he DID leave his wife... so his character is the only reason why he cheated prior to it, aka the exit affair.

 

in your case, from everything i've read, your dude was basically not even married when you met him. that's why (to me) the cheating part is even more weird, it is literally beating a dead and rotten horse.

[minimariah]

Nope. Because of all the other evidence. The letters and emails saying exactly that - "I don't see the need for MC because I am not the problem, you are the problem because you are unhappy. I am not unhappy. If you are unhappy then it is your problem to fix, not mine.", etc. The observations of family and friends over the years, of how she treated him in public, what was said in their presence, etc. The referral reports from the GP to be taken along to the MC (which didn't happen). The emails from the MC who saw them for a single session before the xW stormed out and refused to return. The emails during the divorce. The letters. The journals she kept and left lying on the floor when she moved out. The things the kids reported.

 

The "cheater" doesn't have to say a thing. The evidence is pretty clear.

 

how did he end up marrying her? how do you go from I DO to.... this?

i really gotta open a thread about it.

[minimariah]

i mean... when you're in a bad marriage and don't touch your spouse and don't have the sex AT ALL... you really can't be surprised when the said spouse cheats on you. so the state of the marriage matters, of course.

 

it's not the same when someone cheats in a bad marriage with a really bad and horrible spouse and when someone cheats in a marriage when the spouse is fantastic. even then? it still might not be enough.

 

i know from personal experience... had a perfect relationship, he was amazing to me. there was obsession, passion, in love. but it just wasn't enough and i discovered later that it can be so much more and happier with someone who didn't treat me not nearly that perfect. destiny, kismet... sh*t happens.

[purplesorrow]

this is true. with one exception - BSs don't choose to believe that the WSs wasn't sane so they can explain the unjustice. they're doing it so they can convince themselves that the WS still loves them & that there is still hope for reconciliation. if the admit that the A was more than a lapse in judgement and that it had some strong and real feelings... reconciliation is almost close to impossible.

 

everything is a defense mechanism, pretty much.

 

You can't speak for any bs that reconciled. You have no idea what they think. I'm not reconciling but I don't agree with this either.

[goodyblue]

and all that time... it took him to meet YOU to realize that there was something wrong with this picture? did she change overnight? if not... why did he marry someone like that in the 1st place? did she seduce the poor guy? why didn't he protect his child from this kind of behavior?

 

 

 

that's not weird at all. he did spend, after all, YEARS convincing both himself and the Xspouse that he was happy. and according to your posts, his Xspouse is an abuser so... let's just say that her perspective is probably a little... well, weird.

 

 

 

so he is coming from an abusive and dysfunctional home, too? because that's the only way someone could think that being treated this way was okay.

 

 

 

these two things are in contradiction. if he was "set up" - then it wasn't his choice. also - doing the right thing... folks don't know what that means, most of the time. doing the right thing =\= staying in an unhappy marriage out of obligation and only for the kids. people THINK they're doing themselves and their children a favour that way... they don't.

 

i mean, he really wasn't set up for an A. he had a bad marriage and it is clear that he was over with the M for a loooong time, long before you appeared. he DID leave his wife... so his character is the only reason why he cheated prior to it, aka the exit affair.

 

in your case, from everything i've read, your dude was basically not even married when you met him. that's why (to me) the cheating part is even more weird, it is literally beating a dead and rotten horse.

 

No. She didn't change overnight. It was a slow progression in the last 12 years of their marriage. He stayed for the reasons I stated. Those are the reasons he cites.

 

It didn't take 'meeting me' for him to leave. We have known one another for more than 20 years. He was ready,wanted to leave. But tbh I do not know if he would have had the courage. He was a deacon in his parish. I think that was probably the biggest loss for him.

 

In any event, it is what it is. I do not feel that he has some inherent cheater flaw. I do not worry about him cheating on me. I just feel it was the perfect storm. And thank God.

 

His ex, I used to really abhor her. I have calmed down some. Now I just feel sorry for her and hope that he gets help. As for her expecting him to just come back, or fighting for the marriage, too little too late. She should have fought long before he had made his final decision.

[minimariah]

As for her expecting him to just come back, or fighting for the marriage, too little too late. She should have fought long before he had made his final decision.

 

in reality - they probably should've never married in the 1st place. some people, quite literally, end up together by a mistake.... circumstances, not honest & respectful love. it is what it is. and the marriage most certainly (simply following the law of probabilities) didn't fail SOLELY because of her - i'm sure he "helped", too.

 

the thing that truly baffles me is the progression from "I DO!" to "this b*tch has lost her mind, calling 911" - it has nothing to do with your situation, i'm just rambling and talking in general.

[goodyblue]

As i said, it was a slow progression.

 

And i am sure he played his part in the downfall of the marriage. But... living with a drunk pretty much trumps anything he did.

[velvette]

I'm sure there is a good deal of truth to this, if only a priori. An OW would not (normally) involve herself with a MM she judged to be "of flawed character", so if she's involved with him, she must consider his character generally sound.

Likewise, a BS would not (normally) choose to believe that a sane, rational, good person made a reasoned decision to treat them with disrespect and disdain, since this implies that other sane, rational, good people might equally consider them (the BS) of deserving such disrespect and disdain, and so they need to argue that the WS was not sane, not rational, or not good (or a combination of those) so as to explain such an "unjustified" decision to treat the BS so callously.

 

Huh? I had to read that several times to follow your mental gymnastics and I'm still not sure what you are saying. But, I and I don't think many BS need to think very long to know that a spouse doesn't deserve to be treated callously or with disrespect. And, how you make it to the conclusion anyone would think the disrespect they don't deserve from their spouse would become contagious among other people is just strange.

 

 

There is no need to rationalize behavior with made up stuff when you already know its wrong. Wrong behavior lies at the feet of the person engaged in it. Everyone learns that in kindergarten. Whether the lesson sticks is a different subject.

 

 

As for the OW, she usually has no clue as to the real character of the cheater until she's gotten to know him better and even then lots is still hidden in most affairs.

[velvette]

As i said, it was a slow progression.

 

And i am sure he played his part in the downfall of the marriage. But... living with a drunk pretty much trumps anything he did.

 

This flies in the face of everything that is known about acoholics and their enablers.

 

 

So are you one of those OW telling yourself what you want to make yourself feel better or are do just not understand this?

 

 

The enabler makes it virtually impossible for the drinker to stop drinking and get treatment.

 

 

Most professionals see this behavior as dysfunctional as the drinking.

 

 

These are the characteristics associated with enabling:

 

 

Needing to control the drinker.

Blaming any R issuses on the drinker.

Avoiding conflict at all costs.

Denial/Tendency to minimize problems.

Cowardice/fear

 

 

Interesting how they are the same characteristics most professionals associate with cheating.

[velvette]

this is true. with one exception - BSs don't choose to believe that the WSs wasn't sane so they can explain the unjustice. they're doing it so they can convince themselves that the WS still loves them & that there is still hope for reconciliation. if the admit that the A was more than a lapse in judgement and that it had some strong and real feelings... reconciliation is almost close to impossible.

 

everything is a defense mechanism, pretty much.

 

 

I don't agree. First, whether or not the WS loved the AP has little to no consequence when it comes to R.

 

 

Second, even if a BS thinks like this during the initial discovery, shock, trauma its not usually a thought process that lasts. Its a normal reaction. People have the same reaction all the time when someone they know well does something way out of character or something that is "insane" from the perspective that it is going to rain down a bunch of crap on their lives.

[goodyblue]

This flies in the face of everything that is known about acoholics and their enablers.

 

 

So are you one of those OW telling yourself what you want to make yourself feel better or are do just not understand this?

 

 

The enabler makes it virtually impossible for the drinker to stop drinking and get treatment.

 

 

Most professionals see this behavior as dysfunctional as the drinking.

 

 

These are the characteristics associated with enabling:

 

 

Needing to control the drinker.

Blaming any R issuses on the drinker.

Avoiding conflict at all costs.

Denial/Tendency to minimize problems.

Cowardice/fear

 

 

Interesting how they are the same characteristics most professionals associate with cheating.

 

Eh, he doesn't reall. do any of that stuff except he hates conflict.

[velvette]

Eh, he doesn't reall. do any of that stuff except he hates conflict.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear. These are the behaviors enablers exhibit in a relationship with an alcoholic.

 

 

You wouldn't be seeing them in your new R. They probably wouldnt manifest until he, you or the marriage encounters a stressful or conflict filled situation that he has difficulty dealing with. That doesn't usually happen in the beginning of most relationships.

[goodyblue]

Erm... i didnt see him.exhibit.those behaviors when he was with his ex, and we have been togetjer for some time now. I would think that watching him divorce, moving across the country, raising my gaggle of kids together, tjat i.would at leadt see a glimpse of tbose things. I. Dont see them, except the one i mentioned previously.

 

You really are using.that brush to paint all A's the same, and it just isn't so.

[velvette]

Erm... i didnt see him.exhibit.those behaviors when he was with his ex, and we have been togetjer for some time now. I would think that watching him divorce, moving across the country, raising my gaggle of kids together, tjat i.would at leadt see a glimpse of tbose things. I. Dont see them, except the one i mentioned previously.

 

You really are using.that brush to paint all A's the same, and it just isn't so.

 

No, I wasn't even talking about affairs, but about people who are enablers to alcoholics.

 

 

You wouldn't see what went on in their relationship.

 

 

Like I said, until you experience a major stress on your relationship you probably wont see.

 

 

Its advice for the future. Take it or leave it.

[goodyblue]

I.

 

Like I said, until you experience a major stress on your relationship you probably wont see.

 

 

Its advice for the future. Take it or leave it.

 

You spouted a list of characteristics for enablers, then went on to say they.are the same as WS. I said my guy has not exhibited those and you said i wouldn't see them until our relationship was stressed. I said it had been and i saw none of that, then you try to say you were only talking about alcoholics and in the next breath say it is something for me.to watch for in the future.

 

Yeah, i am going to have to go ahead and leave it, thanks. All WS are not the same, most assuredly not mine. Sorry.

 

But i appreciate your candor and thoughts. You see, just as BS's love to say we OW don't know what goes on in the marriage of our MM, i believe BS's know even less of what our relationship with our MM was/is.

 

And this isn't about you in particular, but just in gemeral, Bs's love to tell us all about how OW are used and abused by MM. Nobody, and i mean nobody, has any idea what.goes on between AP's.

[cocorico]

how did he end up marrying her? how do you go from I DO to.... this?

i really gotta open a thread about it.

 

I'll happily answer if you start such a thread. I don't want to t/j this one any further.

 

this is true. with one exception - BSs don't choose to believe that the WSs wasn't sane so they can explain the unjustice. they're doing it so they can convince themselves that the WS still loves them & that there is still hope for reconciliation. if the admit that the A was more than a lapse in judgement and that it had some strong and real feelings... reconciliation is almost close to impossible.

 

everything is a defense mechanism, pretty much.

 

True, I have seen this a few times on these boards. But, if the WS has such a "flawed character", why invest in reconciliation? Surely a character that flawed is a risk...?

[minimariah]

I don't agree. First, whether or not the WS loved the AP has little to no consequence when it comes to R.

 

i disagree -- i think the "depth" of the relationship with the AP is, in fact, the most important in a reconciliation because it shows you just how detached you became from the 1st relationship. if the love & feelings for the AP are much deeper, more intense and stronger than anything that was EVER felt for the BS - then you basically have 0 chance for a true reconciliation.

 

But, if the WS has such a "flawed character", why invest in reconciliation? Surely a character that flawed is a risk...?

 

for the same reasons WS cheat & decide to stay -- love, kids, finances, comfortable life, not easy to walk away from all that history... the act of cheating (lies and sneaking around) IS a character flaw but falling in love with someone else, developing feelings for someone else... that isn't. a character flaw is something that can be controlled, worked on... fixed, eventually. if your WS doesn't love you anymore? no way of fixing that, that's hopeless.

 

so it's easier to think that an A is exclusively a character flaw and nothing but a character flaw than it is to face the painful truth that your spouse (maybe) stopped loving you. we work on our characters daily, we grow as people, we change. you can change your flaws but you can't force yourself to stop or start loving someone.

[velvette]

i disagree -- i think the "depth" of the relationship with the AP is, in fact, the most important in a reconciliation because it shows you just how detached you became from the 1st relationship. if the love & feelings for the AP are much deeper, more intense and stronger than anything that was EVER felt for the BS - then you basically have 0 chance for a true reconciliation.

 

 

I think the bolded point is probably true, but these are generally the people who leave marriages. The only exception I see to that is if the depth of love for the A partner is if a huge need was not ever being met in the marriage and somehow the married partners find a way to meet that need.

 

 

Yeah some people stay for the perks of M. But, that is not really a reconciliation, more like a maintenance plan to keep the same number of cars in the garage.

 

 

Its almost a given that people who are in A feel some form of love. If not love, then attraction/limerance or at least like/affection.

 

What I meant was in a genuine reconciliation it doesn't matter much what those feelings were. The requirements for a reconciliation are defining what you want your marriage to look like together, honesty and then taking the required steps to create the marriage you want. You really cant do that without deep love, so that's a given to me.

 

 

 

ten characters

[cocorico]

i disagree -- i think the "depth" of the relationship with the AP is, in fact, the most important in a reconciliation because it shows you just how detached you became from the 1st relationship. if the love & feelings for the AP are much deeper, more intense and stronger than anything that was EVER felt for the BS - then you basically have 0 chance for a true reconciliation.

 

 

 

for the same reasons WS cheat & decide to stay -- love, kids, finances, comfortable life, not easy to walk away from all that history... the act of cheating (lies and sneaking around) IS a character flaw but falling in love with someone else, developing feelings for someone else... that isn't. a character flaw is something that can be controlled, worked on... fixed, eventually. if your WS doesn't love you anymore? no way of fixing that, that's hopeless.

 

so it's easier to think that an A is exclusively a character flaw and nothing but a character flaw than it is to face the painful truth that your spouse (maybe) stopped loving you. we work on our characters daily, we grow as people, we change. you can change your flaws but you can't force yourself to stop or start loving someone.

 

Ah, right. Yes, that makes sense.

[BlackOpsZombieGirl]

I agree with the assessment that someone who lives a lie over time, and carries on an affair behind their spouse's back, has a character flaw, or an emotional issue, or some other kind of major malfunction. I personally am at a place in my life where I KNOW I would never do this to someone. I would leave the relationship first.

 

ZombieGirl, I am sorry this was done to you. I know firsthand the kind of destruction this can cause. I hope you WILL forgive someday, for your own benefit. Or at least consider, the vows one makes in marriage are made under God (historically speaking), and so he will have to answer to God for breaking them. I hope if you cannot forgive, you can try to hand it over. It seems you carry a great weight on your shoulders.

 

Thanks for understanding the agonizing pain and heartbreak that I've gone through (and that my babies have gone through as well) with regard to my ex-husband's selfish and monstrous act of infidelity when all he had to do was COMMUNICATE to me what he was thinking and feeling. Yes, I've handed my pain and feelings of betrayal and emptiness over to God years ago - but, that doesn't mean I'm all hunky-dory and doing cartwheels every day of my life. I look into my beautiful children's eyes and I can sometimes see the pain that they feel that mommy and daddy aren't together anymore. What they've suffered emotionally, in addition to what I've suffered, is something I'll NEVER forgive him for, because he does NOT deserve it. And, I know that forgiveness is not for the other person but for yourself. Someday, when I feel it in my heart to forgive him, maybe I will.

 

 

 

but she didn't tell you that - no one did. literally no one is saying that the state of the marriage is irrelevant. BUT it cannot be the excuse for cheating. you cannot use the state of the marriage as the reason you've cheated because cheating is not the only response to the bad marriage. like, why did you cheat and left the marriage only when you had a #2 option safe and secured? reasons are usually kids, finances... that's the reason you've decided to cheat instead of divorcing, not the state of your marriage. the state of your marriage is a reason that you've stopped loving your spouse, distanced yourself, blah, blah... but the fact that you've decided to cheat instead of leaving? your bad marriage ain't to blame - your finances and kids are.

 

both spouses are usually to blame for the bad marriage and for the problems that eventually led to the infidelity but the act of the infidelity is exclusively cheater's choice and fault. saying that the state of the marriage cannot be excuse or that it doesn't make it okay is cheat DOES NOT mean that the state of the marriage is irrelevant. to me, cheating is most definitely a symptom of a bad marriage. a sign that shows you that something is missing.

 

it's hard to talk about the state of the marriage because BS's and WS's perspectives are usually very different. no one changes over night, you know? no one becomes a monster over night, the signs were there from the beginning. and if THAT's true... then what the f*ck were you thinking when you married that person and decided to have children with them in the 1st place? many BS's "becoming monsters" are in fact, caused by the WS's behavior towards them. trashing your Xes and your xMarriage - you're trashing yourself, because YOU chose them.

 

your choices make you who you are, they show your true character. the fact that you have a bunch of folks who are in an unhappy marriage - some of them cheat and some of them divorce - shows you very clearly that cheating IS, in fact, a matter of character AND circumstances (a lot of people can't divorce for this or that reason). but it most definitely cannot be removed from character.

 

100% THIS ^^^^

 

 

.

[velvette]

I would like to know how you characterize someone.who didn't drink when they married? Someone who was relatively normal, until 15 years into.the marriage? what is the preexisting disposition? Everything is fine... until it it isn't.

 

 

If I were told that story as an OW, I would be skeptical based on what I know about alcoholism.

 

 

So, to bring this back on topic, that's why it is so important not to let your perspective as OW, AP or BS color the facts. As the OW you have no way of knowing if this is a true statement. Learning about alcoholism would show you its not likely to be true and in fact would be a rare if not non-existent possibility.

 

 

As an OW, for the purposes of understanding the married AP, and how his past marital history might or might not impact me, I would be more interested in learning about what event relative to the marriage or the drinker preceded the excessive drinking. Also, what his role in things was.

[goodyblue]

If I were told that story as an OW, I would be skeptical based on what I know about alcoholism.

 

 

So, to bring this back on topic, that's why it is so important not to let your perspective as OW, AP or BS color the facts. As the OW you have no way of knowing if this is a true statement. Learning about alcoholism would show you its not likely to be true and in fact would be a rare if not non-existent possibility.

 

 

As an OW, for the purposes of understanding the married AP, and how his past marital history might or might not impact me, I would be more interested in learning about what event relative to the marriage or the drinker preceded the excessive drinking. Also, what his role in things was.

 

It wouldn't matter what I.said, whether the peopke in her life agreed this was the case, whether she herself admitted such, you would want to blame FMM. So really, i am not interested in your pop psychology. It appears you.think you know every single scenario to every affair. I eould be wrong no matter what.

 

Enjoy your evening.

[velvette]

So you're saying that a BS has preexisting issues that predispose them to being "cheated" on?

 

 

Interesting question and one I have not spent much time thinking about other than as it relates to myself. My situation being a BS of the same man I was in an A with is not representative of the majority of cheating scenarios.

 

 

There's not a ton of study in that area to my knowledge like the mountains of case studies you could find for spouses of alcoholics and abusers.

 

 

So, in general my answer would be that any time you find yourself in a dysfunctional situation, you would be well served to ask yourself how you got there.

 

 

Beyond that to do justice to the topic would require totally derailing this thread. Start a new one and I'll be happy to discuss it further with you and hear what real live BS have to say on the subject.

[cocorico]

Interesting question and one I have not spent much time thinking about other than as it relates to myself. My situation being a BS of the same man I was in an A with is not representative of the majority of cheating scenarios.

 

 

There's not a ton of study in that area to my knowledge like the mountains of case studies you could find for spouses of alcoholics and abusers.

 

 

So, in general my answer would be that any time you find yourself in a dysfunctional situation, you would be well served to ask yourself how you got there.

 

 

Beyond that to do justice to the topic would require totally derailing this thread. Start a new one and I'll be happy to discuss it further with you and hear what real live BS have to say on the subject.

 

I was simply asking to see whether your thinking was consistent, or whether your clear prejudices around infidelity allowed you to recognise your own cognitive dissonance.

 

I've done my own reading and have my own answers, thanks I hope one day you'll find the peace you seek.

[velvette]

I was simply asking to see whether your thinking was consistent, or whether your clear prejudices around infidelity allowed you to recognise your own cognitive dissonance.

 

I've done my own reading and have my own answers, thanks I hope one day you'll find the peace you seek.

 

Thanks for your concern, but I'm feeling quite peaceful and not stressed by cognitive dissonance.

 

 

You must have read the only book/study ever printed on pre-existing dysfunction in BS. Googling it 6 different ways to Sunday, turns up nothing but an old thread here that didn't go very far.

 

 

Where did you find this information?