Sex deprivation- is it an abuse ?

[carhill]

By best friend has deprived me of sex for over 20 years and we love each other dearly..... as two heterosexual men.

 

IMO, if the deprivation of a physical and emotional intimacy such as sex, as agreed to between the partners when they agreed to a sexually and emotionally monogamous and intimate relationship, is unilateral and ongoing, meaning repetitive over time, it becomes a behavior, at minimum, neglectful or abandoning and, at most, abusive.

 

Since neglect and abandonment were once grounds for divorce and, in some case, even grounds for annulment/nullity of a marriage, it follows that the minimum definition could be construed to be injurious to the health of the marriage itself and ostensibly to the partner who is neglected and abandoned.

 

I used marriage for simplicity but the concept could apply to any committed and monogamous relationship predicated on sexual and emotional intimacy.

 

Overwhelmingly, it appears, when discussing such dynamics, it's generally the husband who is experiencing the sexless marriage, where he desires sex and is denied. Hence, one can find parity where the husband denies his wife sexual intimacy and examine the definitions surrounding that choice. Is that neglect? Is that abandonment? Is that abuse?

[autumnnight]

I believe fully that my husband's refusal and denial of sex and physical intimacy was possibly ignorant at first. After numerous conversations, my twisting myself into a perfection pretzel, begging for counseling, etc.....it stopped being about his ignorance. It became neglect, passive aggressively abusive, and a form of sexual betrayal.

 

The same Book that says "thou shalt not commit adultery" also says "do not deprive each other."

 

He absolutely knew what I needed. He did not care. Anyone who thinks that is not at LEAST neglect is in serious uncomfortable denial.

[Robert Z]

He absolutely knew what I needed. He did not care. Anyone who thinks that is not at LEAST neglect is in serious uncomfortable denial.

 

Same here. And I couldn't even go out on the couch and jack off in peace. She would try to sneak out and "catch me". WHAT ARE YOU DOING?!?! Eventually I learned to hear her sneaking down the hall. So then it got to be a game of waiting until she gave up and went back to bed. But at that point I was still trying to be understanding of her "medical problem". I figured it was temporary and she was acting out of guilt or something. I didn't know that she planned on me going the rest of my life without sex.

 

 

If only I knew then what I know now. I could have saved myself 20 years of grief.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Robert Z

[Phoenician]

Oh, I see. You're right.

In that context, it seems like it's part of a passive-aggressive form of abuse. I'm sorry that you're feeling stuck.

 

I'm a woman and I'm not married but I had a boyfriend like your wife.

We were in a long distance relationship so you can imagine how disappointing it was when we went on sexless "romantic" vacation to Italy. He was punishing me because I didn't move in to the country he lived in yet. It felt terrible and I felt that he thought I'm stupid. Plus I was very irritable because I was sexually deprived!

 

How old are your kids?

 

Sorry to hear that ,

 

my kids are 16,13 (girls ) and a 6 years old boy.

[regine_phalange]

Sorry to hear that ,

 

my kids are 16,13 (girls ) and a 6 years old boy.

 

I see. They're still young, indeed.

I know that divorces are most of the times against men.

Since she knows that you want an open marriage, well, she practically knows about your frustration. I'm totally against cheating, but in this instance it's not cheating anymore. But before finding someone else maybe you could discuss about having an amicable divorce? I don't really know what the process is. Have you asked an attorney if it's possible to make it amicable without her changing her mind and completely taking away the children and the resources? Is she vindictive? Also are you sure your wife doesn't have a boyfriend?

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Abuse, no.

 

 

Contact voiding action, yes.

 

 

Unless for a legitimate medical reason, or a reaction to bad behavior (abuse, cheating, dishonesty, etc), withholding sex is indefensible & should result in ending the partnership.

 

 

Give her a deadline & if she fails to at least tell you why & what you can do to fix it, you should file for divorce.

[Rejected Rosebud]

No it is not abuse!! Don't play a victim role here, even tho it's not abuse it def shows that your marriage is in trouble and you are not getting your needs met and you need to address it!! I have to say though that it is puzzling that sex withholding is considered abuse by some :confused: women and men are in relationships with people who refuse cruelly and selfishly to meet their needs physical and emotional, if a woman is miserable and feeling crushed because her husband plays video games or watches sports or porn all the time and never talks to her would you think that was abuse?? I wouldn't, but I would think that she needs to do something about her relationship and her life!! I understand that you are miserable and you don't want to divorce but I have to say it is YOUR life and you need to take care of it and yourself!!! Your kids might be happier in a family of divorced parents where both of them are feeling good about life than in a miserable household!!

 

It is not doing you any good to consider yourself a victim!!!

[stillafool]

well I wish the book was why "does she does that " because my wife is depriving me from sex just if I disagree with her on anything ; like "no darling we cant put a treadmill in bedroom ; it will squeeze us .. and puff sex disappear for dys , weeks , ....

 

 

Are you the type who begs her for sex on a frequent basis? Be honest. If you do then stop asking her for it. She sounds like she gets satisfaction from rejecting you. It's sick.

Edited May 18, 2015 by stillafool

[Phoenician]

I see. They're still young, indeed.

I know that divorces are most of the times against men.

Since she knows that you want an open marriage, well, she practically knows about your frustration. I'm totally against cheating, but in this instance it's not cheating anymore. But before finding someone else maybe you could discuss about having an amicable divorce? I don't really know what the process is. Have you asked an attorney if it's possible to make it amicable without her changing her mind and completely taking away the children and the resources? Is she vindictive? Also are you sure your wife doesn't have a boyfriend?

 

The only good thing in our marriage is that we are mature enough in not propagating the trauma in our family ; I discussed many times with her our issues ...

 

The issues are not just intimacy ; actually when intimacy happened it was good ; she would orgasm many times , I would be satisfied and I am not greedy ;

 

The main issue is her selfish lifestyle and her laziness ; which makes her disrespect me if I ask her anything to do other than sleeping and resting .

 

She is not cheating , 100% sure f it , and I do a lot of Investigations from time to time ...

 

She is just a spoiled kid , who couldn't grow; and I am in a loosing battle because if i leave she will have either all kids or the minor ones ...

 

she just want in life security through marriage , because even if i divorce her back , she will be financially secure from the benefits i give her ...

 

 

i am in a loosing battle...

 

all what i can do now , is wait until kids grow a bit then leave ...

Edited May 18, 2015 by Phoenician

[Taramere]

When a spouse suffers from sex deprivation over the years from partner ;would you consider it as abuse ?

 

Pretty much anything that's done in a calculated, malicious way could be defined as abuse. So ignoring a partner, withholding affection, withholding sex - all of that could potentially be seen as emotionally abusive if it's done in a vindictive sort of way, with the intention of causing distress.

 

The problem with creating a term like "deprivation of sex", and categorising it as a form of abuse, is that for many people sex is an expression of love and intimate feelings..and if they're feeling emotionally distanced from their partner, going through the motions of this very intimate act might feel distinctly unpleasant. Saying no in that situation isn't abusive. It's a sign that there's a problem within the relationship...but to mark it as "her abusing me by saying no to sex" is really just putting all the blame, and the responsibility for solving the problem, onto her.

 

I've seen posts on here where people describe withholding of sex or affection as being an intentionally vindictive, calculated to hurt behaviour by a partner. Whether it really is calculated and intentional is anybody's guess. I think there's often a temptation to insist that it is....but if the reality is that your partner just doesn't feel connected enough to you, in the immediate aftermath of an argument, to want sex, then choosing to perceive her behaviour as a calculated, abusive sort of thing isn't really going to help you address the situation effectively.

 

If there's a pattern of one person withholding sex and/or affection following disagreements then I suppose the task is "how can we both improve the way we handle disagreement and conflict...so that there isn't this residual sense of hostility and reduced intimacy?" Maybe some couples counselling could help with that....but I would think that a skilled counsellor would want to steer you away from labelling your wife as an abuser whenever she's not available to you for sex. Perceiving it in those terms, and sharing with her that that's how you perceive it seems highly unlikely to achieve anything positive.

 

After all, withholding sex or affection isn't something you inflict on somebody in the way that physical violence or shouting/abusive language would be. If somebody withdraws because they need some space or privacy then unless you're talking about a young child being neglected and failing to thrive as a consequence of a parent withdrawing attention and affection, use of a term like "abuse" is really quite manipulative. Abuse is a highly loaded term, and I think it's wise to employ it with some care...lest others perceive you as positioning yourself in the victim role with the aim of controlling another person (eg "if you loved me, you would have sex with me when I ask. You're making me feel unloved by saying no. You're abusing me...")

 

If there's a regular pattern of sex being withheld - and it's increasingly looking like a controlling strategy on your wife's part, then perhaps this is something that can be brought out and discussed constructively within couples counselling. I think if you carry on assuming that she's using sex as a weapon, and feeling victimised as a result, you're just going to move ever farther away from addressing this in any sort of constructive way.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Taramere

[dreamingoftigers]

No it is not abuse!! Don't play a victim role here, even tho it's not abuse it def shows that your marriage is in trouble and you are not getting your needs met and you need to address it!! I have to say though that it is puzzling that sex withholding is considered abuse by some :confused: women and men are in relationships with people who refuse cruelly and selfishly to meet their needs physical and emotional, if a woman is miserable and feeling crushed because her husband plays video games or watches sports or porn all the time and never talks to her would you think that was abuse?? I wouldn't, but I would think that she needs to do something about her relationship and her life!! I understand that you are miserable and you don't want to divorce but I have to say it is YOUR life and you need to take care of it and yourself!!! Your kids might be happier in a family of divorced parents where both of them are feeling good about life than in a miserable household!!

 

It is not doing you any good to consider yourself a victim!!!

 

As much as your exclamation points all over the place make your point well-rounded and valid.....

 

It isn't.

 

In fact, withholding of sex is listed as an abusive behaviour on the domestic violence materials I received from a shelter during counseling, as well as a domestic violence course I took 3 years ago.

 

Force is the same as passive-aggressive withholding in this instance.

 

And basically anything used as a form of "control" in a relationship IS ABUSE.

 

Now seeing oneself as a "victim" has become a new term, that has been twisted and shamed into seeing one as someone who won't do anything to better their situation.

 

That doesn't make sense at all.

 

vic·tim

ˈviktəm/Submit

noun

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.

synonyms: sufferer, injured party, casualty; More

a person who is tricked or duped.

"the victim of a hoax"

synonyms: loser, prey, stooge, dupe, sucker, quarry, fool, fall guy, chump; More

a living creature killed as a religious sacrifice.

synonyms: sacrifice, offering, burnt offering, scapegoat

"he offered himself as a victim"

 

None of this says, "oh woe is me I shall never be or want or do anything different."

 

And marrying someone who does a bait & switch is victimizing someone.

 

I was a victim of such things.

 

That doesn't mean that I need to go back over and over to the same trough. That's "choosing to be a victim."

 

That's something completely different.

[beach]

The only good thing in our marriage is that we are mature enough in not propagating the trauma in our family ; I discussed many times with her our issues ...

 

The issues are not just intimacy ; actually when intimacy happened it was good ; she would orgasm many times , I would be satisfied and I am not greedy ;

 

The main issue is her selfish lifestyle and her laziness ; which makes her disrespect me if I ask her anything to do other than sleeping and resting .

 

She is not cheating , 100% sure f it , and I do a lot of Investigations from time to time ...

 

She is just a spoiled kid , who couldn't grow; and I am in a loosing battle because if i leave she will have either all kids or the minor ones ...

 

she just want in life security through marriage , because even if i divorce her back , she will be financially secure from the benefits i give her ...

 

 

i am in a loosing battle...

 

all what i can do now , is wait until kids grow a bit then leave ...

 

No, that is NOT all you can do for now.

 

You have choices. You CAN choose to leave her but you choose not to.

 

When it gets bad enough - you will leave.

 

 

Start making REAL demands then! Especially since she with holds sex anyway ( that really is cruel).

 

Tell her to get a full time job and earn money. Tell her if she's not willing to give you sex and intimacy then you plan to get it from another woman.

 

No asking - just lay it out... You have needs and she doesn't intend to acknowledge your feelings - so tell her you intend to find someone else to bond with.

 

Divorce should definitely be your first option. You can parents those kids without being in the same home as her.

[Robert Z]

Anyone who doesn't see this as a form of abuse should trying going without sex for ten years. It left me holding a gun to my head and doing my best to pull the trigger.

 

Were it not for prostitutes, I would be dead by now. It kills a man from the inside out. But it happens slowly and almost imperceptibly as the will to live slips away. It is death a thousand cuts. By the time I should have known to end it, I was almost too far gone to help myself. The will to live was gone.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Robert Z

[autumnnight]

Anyone who doesn't see this as a form of abuse should trying going without sex for ten years. It left me holding a gun to my head and doing my best to pull the trigger.

 

Were it not for prostitutes, I would be dead by now. It kills a man from the inside out. But it happens slowly and almost imperceptibly as the will to live slips away. It is death a thousand cuts. By the time I should have known to end it, I was almost too far gone to help myself. The will to live was gone.

 

The problem with this, Robert, is that those who do not see it as abuse do ot typically believe sex is all that important. They are the ones who typically assume it's the starving spouse who is to blame for the deprivation. There's no way to convince someone who already minimizes sex that it's a big deal.

 

Just look at some of the phrases....we insist that it is malicious, manipulative, or vindictive, but that could be anybody's guess (translation - it is probably our own fault and we should just quit being sex maniacs.

[Robert Z]

The problem with this, Robert, is that those who do not see it as abuse do ot typically believe sex is all that important. They are the ones who typically assume it's the starving spouse who is to blame for the deprivation. There's no way to convince someone who already minimizes sex that it's a big deal.

 

Just look at some of the phrases....we insist that it is malicious, manipulative, or vindictive, but that could be anybody's guess (translation - it is probably our own fault and we should just quit being sex maniacs.

 

 

Yes, people who are undersexed or who have no libido can't possibly understand, which is in part why the problem exists in the first place. If you have a healthy drive and happen to marry someone who doesn't, God help you. Not only will you be deprived, you will be judged and condemned for your needs.

 

I had no idea how important sex is until the day after my first night with an escort. Suddenly I had the will to live again. Suddenly I felt like a new man. Suddenly I wanted to get out of bed in the morning. A few hours in the sack did more good than two years of therapy and a year of prozac. It was only then that I realized that I need sex. I don't just want it, I need it in order to desire to live. And I am sick of being judged by people who have no sex drive. They are the ones who are abnormal, not me. I just happen to have an especially strong drive.

 

When I went to see an escort, I thought it was just a reason to hang on. Having sex with hot babes is better than dead. It was the one thing that I could still imagine wanting to do when I looked down the barrel of my 0.380. But I had no idea that it would change my life!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Robert Z

[pteromom]

Simply uninterrested in sex could be true when a person is really LD ;she enjoys sex only when she needs it only when she wants it , and only the way she likes it ...

 

she is selfish ...

 

This stuck out to me.

 

Is it selfish to only want sex that she enjoys? Is it selfish of you to want sex that she doesn't enjoy?

 

I get the feeling there is more to this story than a woman who says no to sex because she can't put a treadmill in the bedroom.

 

You describe her as lazy and selfish... do you say those things to her? Because if you do, then of course she doesn't want to have sex with you.

 

I am sure there are people out there who just refuse sex for sport or power. And there are people who just have extremely low drive or sexual aversion. But MOST OF THE TIME, sex refusal is part of a larger pattern in which both partners play a part.

 

In general terms (there are exceptions), women need intimacy first in order to want sex. This means she has to feel close to you, and loved by you. Not love in the way you feel she should want it, but love in the way she wants it expressed. The more loved and understood and accepted she feels, the more she will want to be close to you. The more criticized and judged and blamed she feels, the more she will want to be distant from you.

 

Of course - your wife may be one of the cruel or LD variety. I don't know her or your relationship.

[pteromom]

And I am sick of being judged by people who have no sex drive. They are the ones who are abnormal, not me. I just happen to have an especially strong drive.

 

No, we aren't abnormal either. There is a wide range of normal. I will never judge you for your high drive - please give us LD people the same respect. I promise I will never pursue a relationship with you.

[Taramere]

The problem with this, Robert, is that those who do not see it as abuse do ot typically believe sex is all that important. They are the ones who typically assume it's the starving spouse who is to blame for the deprivation. There's no way to convince someone who already minimizes sex that it's a big deal.

 

I don't see anybody minimising sex. However, abusive behaviour is that which you have a normal duty to refrain from. I think most people would recognise duties not to name call, or say abusive things to people with the intention of hurting them, or visiting violence on people - or sexually molesting an unwilling individual.

 

Is there a duty to have sex with one's spouse? Well, I think it's understood that within a normal loving relationship between partners, there will be sex and affection, open communication - the various things that make a happy, functional relationship. However, I think it goes too far to say there is a duty to have sex, because that implies a loss of agency over one's own body. The concept of marital rape has been introduced into the criminal law of most Western jurisdictions precisely because it's recognised that marriage does not equate with a person losing agency over their own body. Losing the right to say no.

 

A sexless, unaffectionate relationship seems like a cold marriage. It's a marriage that some might tolerate or even decide is suited to them - but that many others would want to depart from. And I don't think any reasonable person would expect them to stay. But you wouldn't call the police and say "my wife refuses to have sex with me" or "my husband never cuddles me any more".

 

It's a sign that the marriage has broken down, and if it can't be retrieved and the situation remedied then ending that marriage seems like a good call. But to say that a person is abusive if they refuse to have sex with you implies that they must have sex with you whether they want to or not. To me, a normal and healthy person faced with a partner who doesn't seem to want an affectionate and intimate relationship with them any more would conclude "this person no longer seems to love and desire me, so I have to question what future we have together."

 

If for some reason you (general you) feel obliged to stay married to them, then you need to sort out some agreement with them. Maybe involving an open relationship. But really, the preferential course of action in this day and age is probably to end it if things can't be worked out - rather than labouring on in a clearly dead relationship. Adopting the very stigmatising (to both you and your partner) "victim of abuse" label because you made that choice to labour on in it instead of cutting your losses and getting out....why do that?

 

If I'm in a relationship with X and they say "I don't love you any more" the fact that on an emotional level I need them to love me doesn't mean they're abusing me by not fulfilling that need. People aren't robots who can switch on emotions like love and physical drives like lust because we "need" them to. If they don't feel it, they don't feel it....and it becomes one oft those sad situations in life that you have to accept, manage and eventually move on from.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Taramere

[autumnnight]

Do you consider emotional or psychological abuse to be abuse? Do you consider actions or lack of actions that negatively and seriously affect someone's sense of self, self-concept, and well-being to be abuse? To you consider the choice to do something that you KNOW is going to hurt someone else abusive?

[Taramere]

Do you consider emotional or psychological abuse to be abuse? Do you consider actions or lack of actions that negatively and seriously affect someone's sense of self, self-concept, and well-being to be abuse? To you consider the choice to do something that you KNOW is going to hurt someone else abusive?

 

No, not necessarily. I've ended relationships before, because they weren't right for me....knowing that it would hurt the person's feelings, affect their self esteem (temporarily), and feeling bad about that. But, nonetheless, ending the relationship because I did not want to be in that relationship.

 

If it's done vindictively as a means of getting the upper hand in some power play, then that's an entirely different matter. For me personally, I would assume that a partner saying no to sex or not behaving affectionately towards me would simply mean "I'm not in the mood just now."

 

If it became habitual, then I'd be considering the future of the relationship and I'd want to talk to them about that. But if I found myself thinking "they're doing this deliberately to hurt me. They're doing it for vindictive reasons" then I'd be questioning why I was in a relationship with them. I wouldn't attribute that motive to somebody unless I had a general view of them being vindictive, manipulative and abusive.

 

But the act of withholding affection/sex in the absence of other signs of an abusive personality....no, my assumption would be "they're saying no, because they don't feel like being close to me today." Then, if they habitually said no, my conclusion would be "they're losing interest/have lost interest."

 

I can certainly see that there are schools of thought out there that promote the "withholding sex is abusive" line of thinking. It's understandable that a person might see it as abusive if they've been in a relationship with a generally abusive person (for whom withholding sex/affection was one of a variety of control/abuse strategies). However, it's pretty problematic if those people start appointing themselves as experts on what constitutes abuse - and inform every person whose marriage is going through a dry spell sexually that "you are being abused."

 

Fundamentally, I do not believe that "abuse" is a term to be used lightly. Historically we've seen families ripped apart by people in a position of professional responsibility who used the concept of abuse indiscriminately, judgementally and very ill advisedly. The fact that a situation leaves us hurting and in need of some emotional support does not automatically mean the other person in that situation has abused us.

[autumnnight]

Well I am certainly happy for those who have never been starved of touch for years and decades and who only has to deal with "I'm just not in the mood today" every once in awhile.

 

Maybe one day I'll know what that's like. Until then I guess I'll just keep in mind that my pain was trivial. I mean, after all, I never had to call the police....

[Rejected Rosebud]

As much as your exclamation points all over the place make your point well-rounded and valid.....

 

It isn't.

 

In fact, withholding of sex is listed as an abusive behaviour on the domestic violence materials I received from a shelter during counseling, as well as a domestic violence course I took 3 years ago.

yeh I just googled that and read it, it's listed under "sexual violence" which is really offensive to me since I know what violent sexual violence is and it is not in the same category as that.

 

Force is the same as passive-aggressive withholding in this instance.

I do NOT agree and also who is determining whether the withholder is doing it as "passive aggressive control" or they just don't feel like having sex, or are just a self centered jerk??

 

And basically anything used as a form of "control" in a relationship IS ABUSE.

Who decides though if she or he is trying to control the other person or is just not interested in sex, or maybe not attracted to that person sexually, or just doesn't give a crap about fulfilling their needs??:confused:

 

Now seeing oneself as a "victim" has become a new term, that has been twisted and shamed into seeing one as someone who won't do anything to better their situation.

 

That doesn't make sense at all.

 

vic·tim

ˈviktəm/Submit

noun

a person harmed, injured, or killed as a result of a crime, accident, or other event or action.

synonyms: sufferer, injured party, casualty; More

a person who is tricked or duped.

"the victim of a hoax"

synonyms: loser, prey, stooge, dupe, sucker, quarry, fool, fall guy, chump; More

a living creature killed as a religious sacrifice.

synonyms: sacrifice, offering, burnt offering, scapegoat

"he offered himself as a victim"

 

None of this says, "oh woe is me I shall never be or want or do anything different."

yeh but none of it even comes close to "my wife won't have sex with me". I also don't argue with you that you were the "victim" of a hoax or bait and switch or whatever but I also know what REALLY happens in alot of relationships. Somebody changes, somebody loses interest or ability to maintain and sustain a healthy relationship so they fall back into bad selfish or whatever habits that they were suppressing in the beginning. I know, I did it myself, I was not baiting and switching, my weakness just got the better of me for a time, lucky for me I owned it and addressed it but almost lost everything, But I swear I had no INTENTION of tricking my dear love. I was just a big f***up.

 

Really people getting complacent lazy and selfish happens all the time

[autumnnight]

yeh I just googled that and read it, it's listed under "sexual violence" which is really offensive to me since I know what violent sexual violence is and it is not in the same category as that.

 

I do NOT agree and also who is determining whether the withholder is doing it as "passive aggressive control" or they just don't feel like having sex, or are just a self centered jerk??

 

Who decides though if she or he is trying to control the other person or is just not interested in sex, or maybe not attracted to that person sexually, or just doesn't give a crap about fulfilling their needs??:confused:

 

yeh but none of it even comes close to "my wife won't have sex with me". I also don't argue with you that you were the "victim" of a hoax or bait and switch or whatever but I also know what REALLY happens in alot of relationships. Somebody changes, somebody loses interest or ability to maintain and sustain a healthy relationship so they fall back into bad selfish or whatever habits that they were suppressing in the beginning. I know, I did it myself, I was not baiting and switching, my weakness just got the better of me for a time, lucky for me I owned it and addressed it but almost lost everything, But I swear I had no INTENTION of tricking my dear love. I was just a big f***up.

 

Really people getting complacent lazy and selfish happens all the time

 

Like I said, I'm happy for those of you who never felt like freaks or unattractive worthless carp because the person who promised to love you wouldn't touch you. If only I had been enlightened enough to realise it was no big deal. Silly victim me....

[Robert Z]

Not in the same category as violence? Alright. But it was a form of torture. And it sucks the life right out of you. That some members refuse to accept that probably isn't surprising if they were the deniers. The truth hurts!

 

I see the dead men walking all around. I know the toll that it takes. I can see it in their eyes. They are just waiting to die, like I was.

 

 

And I always find it particularly amusing when women argue with men about how men feel about sex! Gee, that's not a clue to run for your life on a date, is it?

Edited May 19, 2015 by Robert Z

[autumnnight]

Not in the same category as violence? Alright. But it was a form of torture. And it sucks the life right out of you. That some members refuse to accept that probably isn't surprising if they were the deniers. The truth hurts!

 

I see the dead men walking all around. I know the toll that it takes. I can see it in their eyes. They are just waiting to die, like I was.

 

 

And I always find it particularly amusing when women argue with men about how men feel about sex! Gee, that's not a clue to run for your life on a date, is it?

 

If I were a man, I'd almost make a woman sign a libido contract before we married. I'm not kidding.