Sex deprivation- is it an abuse ?

[dreamingoftigers]

What constitutes abuse towards an adult isn't the same as what constitutes abuse towards a child, so I'm not sure why you're bringing children up. At any rate, what you mentioned above WOULD be abuse towards a child (because they can't feed themselves and can't choose to leave) but certainly NOT abuse towards an adult partner. Selfish, uncaring, unloving, etc - yes, but not abuse.

 

'Abuse' is an extremely specific term and you are doing genuine abuse victims a huge disfavour by slapping the term onto any sort of negative, rude, or hurtful behaviour that a partner does. I mean, if you really think about it, that sort of categorization can be stretched to ridiculous limits. Didn't get you a gift even though you said the occasion was meaningful to you? Abuse! Doesn't want to cuddle? Abuse! Didn't want to talk about the problem you encountered at work today? Abuse! Didn't introduce you to his friends?... You get the idea.

 

There are heaps of behaviours that are a good reason to leave a relationship, not all of them go under the 'abuse' umbrella.

 

A system degradation of a partner that IS INTENTIONAL IS ABUSE!

 

No wonder withholding sex and affection is a theme on Loveshack.

 

People seem to think it is just "another relationship issue."

 

No. It isn't. It's a unilateral decision to withhold intimacy from a partner. Often with so many other factors that are difficult to escape.

 

Financial abuse is recognizable. For instance, when there is one person in control of the finances and they keep the money to themselves, buy themselves nice things and the family lives like they are impoverished, THAT is financial abuse.

 

Sex is no different.

 

You are only supposed to get it from one source in a relationship of that nature. And then the partner simply cuts the supply off with no recourse other than a divorce. Of course, following a mindf**k on the way out the door.

 

It can take years to get through the idea that this person is manipulating you. Then more time to untangle it all.

 

Frankly, I was abused as a kid (severely). I have been in an abusive marriage as well. And this was the most degrading part of it all.

[Els]

We are talking about the abusive kind of sex deprivation , not just few days or even weeks of cold wars ...

 

Okay....

 

Let me get this straight. You start a thread asking 'Sex deprivation - is it abuse?'. After 7 pages, you finally clarify that when you are talking about 'sex deprivation', you are specifically talking 'about the abusive kind of sex deprivation'. Well of course in that case it's abuse! Not all arguments are abuse either, but the abusive kind of arguments are obviously abuse...

 

I'm really not sure what the purpose of this thread is in this case, especially when you have already answered your own question. Nobody can even attempt to state their opinions without being bludgeoned by guilt trips and assumptions about their life, personality, or libido.

 

In any case, if you seriously think you're being abused, then do what victims of domestic abuse are advised to do. Get out of your marriage, get a divorce, call a helpline, get counselling, go to a shelter if you need to.

 

Good luck, I'm out of this one.

[dreamingoftigers]

sorry if I now ask some embarrasing question :

 

I will go to extreem and say he can perform anymore , which could not be the case , if he made you orgasm through cuddling and oral lets say once a week , which is half an hour sacrifice few times per month , would you still be in the same boat ? would you feel deprived ?

 

Honestly, if he even were to present to me that he hoped we could connect on that level (if he wasn't able to function) I would probably be fine.

 

In fact, I would feel pretty rotten about asking him to perform on me if he couldn't function. Unless he was wanting that kind of touch.

 

Physically it would be uncomfortable but reasonably I wasn't expecting us to have intercourse at 95.

 

Best case scenario if he couldn't function: he offers once in a while to ease stuff for me via oral or touching if he felt up to it and seen a doctor etc. or regaining potential function. Otherwise I could accept that that part of the relationship was over. In general. If he had just had a functional problem I wouldn't resent it.

 

But claiming to be not functional, and then doing more withholding. NO. Emphatic NO.

[Els]

I'm really not sure what the purpose of this thread is in this case, especially when you have already answered your own question. Nobody can even attempt to state their opinions without being bludgeoned by guilt trips and assumptions about their life, personality, or libido.

 

Edit: To Phoenician/OP and DoT, I'm not blaming you for this, I don't think you said anything out of line. Just saying that it's impossible to debate this topic any further, so I don't see a point in it any more.

[dreamingoftigers]

1) Still missing the point.

2) I have no disdain towards people who have been hurt by terrible partners (including partners who stopped having sex with them). I think most of us have been hurt by previous relationships in some way or other and it is an awful feeling. I don't wish it on anyone.

3) I do have disdain towards people who show disdain towards genuine abuse victims by claiming that a partner who doesn't feel like having sex is being 'abusive', and by making personal accusations towards everyone who disagrees with them. For the record, before further accusations spew forth, I have been the 'higher drive' partner in an R where sexual activity dwindled into near nonexistence. I still hold that I was not being abused in that R. I'm not exactly speaking from the 'depriver' side here.

 

You are missing the point.

 

There is a world of difference between being a higher/lower drive person where there is a difference in frequency and some frustration and what the OP and the others here are describing.

 

THe OP has described a relationship where sex is meted out as a reward for docility.

 

Others of us have listed similar circumstances.

 

And that you keep saying things like "genuine victims of abuse" by applying YOUR context of high/low drives to the posting.

 

It's a completely different thing and people would be good to realize that.

 

It is using intimacy as a weapon to mete out control in a relationship. It is really sick (frankly) and quite damaging.

 

Not merely a difference in frequency or "emotional distance."

 

I actually have felt very insulted by the last two posts of yours that I have read. And you've been on here for years and I generally appreciate your posts. I also know that you weren't aiming anything at me etc. But I think it is so triggering for me as someone that went through this to have it compared to "high.low drive" and "not getting you the gift you wanted" etc.

 

The gulf is so large between pathetic little slights, high/low drive relationships and having your basic biology used against you that I think given this thread that it is almost inarticulateable to anyone who hasn't experienced it. And I hope that you don't.

 

I miss being innocent of such realities.

It reminds me a lot of when I thought that people cheated because they felt their spouse didn't care about them or give them enough sex.

[Rejected Rosebud]

Ironically enough, it surprised me to learn it was considered a form of abuse, but then when you think of the control dynamic involved in it and how it psychologically wears down the partner, it makes sense.

But can you understand that a person who doesn't want to have sex might have some good reasons alot of times because of something deeper in the relationship ??? and being called frigid, sexless and selfish etc or having somebody threaten suicide also might be experienced as controlling and wearing down from their partners insistence and refusal or inability to address the underlying problems??? I guess that's why things like this make me feel mad sometimes, somebody refusing sex is just seen as depriving or withholding and we're not talking about reasons why that may be. But dreamingoftigers I am NOT talking about you and your ex husband or minimizing what has gone on in your marriage I am just talking in general.

[Rejected Rosebud]

- The worst incompatibility when ppl get into a serious relationship or marriage is having someone , Lazy + selfish + LD ; while the partner is just : normal and giver ...

I'm getting the idea that you think you are a much better person in every way than your wife maybe this attitude is making her feel turned off sexually with you???

 

 

My next question could be , are majority of LD selfish ?

 

anybody encountered an exception where the LD person is a great giver ?

I'm pretty sure there are just as many people with a high sex drive who are selfish and not a "great giver" as people with low sex drives, sheesh.

[Phoenician]

I'm getting the idea that you think you are a much better person in every way than your wife maybe this attitude is making her feel turned off sexually with you???

Not at all , i am just a normal human , who makes mistakes , knows I have weknesses but as a human too able to forgive and try again and again and again ; however if I supposed just to be null with no opinion and not even elligible to express my opinion in order to have sex , then certainly I don't want sex anymore ; if this is the case with all women , then I no wonder why so many cheating is happening nowadays.

 

 

I'm pretty sure there are just as many people with a high sex drive who are selfish and not a "great giver" as people with low sex drives, sheesh.

 

Selfish wether in an HD or LD is a mental sickness ,sexless resulting from it is a symptom .

 

 

After seven pages I realized that as said logically :

 

-Only when sex deprivation is a control tool sometimes linked to passive aggressive behavior and selfish acts , it is an abuse ; the abuse in this case extends to the whole relation ...

What is very important to me , is that I realize now that in my case the deprivation is more a symptom of the disease , not the disease itself .

Also Michelle stated a very important issue : it is in the way many women thinks that when disconnected for any reason , they need a long time to establish the intimacy link again ; majority of the time , the link gets broken again before the link heals .

 

 

Divorce is not a simple issue , I can't start over again with such a heavy load ,As You can see , though I am in a sitty situation and divorce is not far ; I am always trying to find a hope that leads to a solution ...

 

Ladies , I enjoyed listening to your opinions , so i am now opening a new thread that targets the issue of rotten relations that could be resulting from inability of one or both partners to understand the male / female thinking;my logical thinking tells me the amount of additional effort that can be done sometimes to reach an acceptable stage is sometimes way less expensive than divorce .

 

I will call it "what triggers your woman to hate you ? "

Edited May 21, 2015 by Phoenician

[Els]

You are missing the point.

 

There is a world of difference between being a higher/lower drive person where there is a difference in frequency and some frustration and what the OP and the others here are describing.

 

THe OP has described a relationship where sex is meted out as a reward for docility.

 

Others of us have listed similar circumstances.

 

And that you keep saying things like "genuine victims of abuse" by applying YOUR context of high/low drives to the posting.

 

It's a completely different thing and people would be good to realize that.

 

It is using intimacy as a weapon to mete out control in a relationship. It is really sick (frankly) and quite damaging.

 

Not merely a difference in frequency or "emotional distance."

 

I actually have felt very insulted by the last two posts of yours that I have read. And you've been on here for years and I generally appreciate your posts. I also know that you weren't aiming anything at me etc. But I think it is so triggering for me as someone that went through this to have it compared to "high.low drive" and "not getting you the gift you wanted" etc.

 

The gulf is so large between pathetic little slights, high/low drive relationships and having your basic biology used against you that I think given this thread that it is almost inarticulateable to anyone who hasn't experienced it. And I hope that you don't.

 

The problem is that the title and opening post of the thread was about whether or not lack of sex was abuse, period. It was not until much later that the OP backtracked to say that he was talking about 'emotionally abusive relationships where sex was withheld as a weapon among other thing', when that was not what was mentioned in the OP nor is it the case in many situations. Obviously there will be a lot of misunderstanding if that isn't clarified, because when you ask blanket questions like "Does X = Y?", it's perfectly valid for people to answer "No because not every X is Y".

 

As I have said in my post to you, I think in your past relationship there was a lot more wrong than just lack of sex - that was just one of the symptoms. I am not discounting what you personally went through, and I'm sorry for what you endured, but I don't think you should take blanket answers to blanket questions personally.

 

I also think that while your previous R was abusive in more ways than one, some of the examples that the OP personally gave were not indicative of abuse - I don't think that it was his wife's 'duty' to 'give him sex' each time he gets a testosterone jab if she doesn't feel like it on that particular night, and I think that after an argument it's perfectly normal for someone to take a while to recover before feeling the desire to have sex (which also isn't abuse).

 

Anyway, I have said that I will stay out of this, but I am making a last attempt to explain my posts to you because I truly did not intend to hurt you. I really do have to leave this thread, though, because I think viewing sex in the way that it is described here - as a duty, as something that you need to do for your partner so as not to be 'selfish', as something that you just have to 'put out' - might actually be temporarily decreasing my libido IRL. 'Duty' is the absolute least sexy thing to think about, IMO, and if you form a subconscious mental connection between that and sex, well, that's pretty bad. It was pretty scary when I realized that my dip in libido for the past few days corresponded exactly with my participation in this thread, so I evidently need to stop for the sake of my real life.

 

Do take care.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Elswyth

[autumnnight]

I wish now he had just cheated on me repeatedly. Because my long term sexual betrayal apparently wasn't "real" hurt.

[Rejected Rosebud]

I wish now he had just cheated on me repeatedly. Because my long term sexual betrayal apparently wasn't "real" hurt.

Why do you keep going there??? Nobody said it isn't "real" hurt EVER!! Some of us just don't believe that one partner failing, refusing, avoiding to have sex with the other one is ABUSE. That doesn't minimize the depth of how it hurt you though!!! AND there is always good in looking at everything from the other perspective, a person who is not feeling sexual towards another individual is NOT necessarily cold, selfish, abusive, all of that, both of the parties USUALLY are coming from a valid place, NOT just the party that is not getting their contractual obligation for sex met. unless we are talking about psychos. Both.

 

OP I don't think your wife being selfish means she has a mental illness or "sickness" either, probably your marriage has a sickness and you both need to go to counseling to address it TOGETHER.

[autumnnight]

a person who is not feeling sexual towards another individual is NOT necessarily cold, selfish, abusive, all of that,

 

I think I finally understand the miscommunication.

 

In my case, I am not talking about a man who "is not feeling sexual toward another individual." I am not talking about a man who just wasn't in the mood at times. I am not talking about a man I mistreated into disconnecting.

 

I am talking about a man who passive aggressively refused sex, who made it clear he was not going to step up through his inaction, who, when I would reach the end of my rope, would promise to change and beg me to stay only to NOT do anything. Who would tell me to initiate because "he just doesn't think about it," and when I would, there was always a reason it was a bad time. Who I bought lingerie for, modeled, and was asked to "get out of the way." Who listened to me cry in bed and did not even roll over to hug me. Who found some validation that he wasn't the only man who wasn't sexual and used that to say "See! I'm normal! I don't have to do anything!" Who, one night, when he could tell I was sad, sighed and huffed and came into the bedroom and said, "Okay, fine, let's get it over with."

 

That isn't a man who "just doesn't feel sexual." That is a man who intentionally hurts.

[carhill]

I am talking about a man who passive aggressively refused sex, who made it clear he was not going to step up through his inaction, who, when I would reach the end of my rope, would promise to change and beg me to stay only to NOT do anything. Who would tell me to initiate because "he just doesn't think about it," and when I would, there was always a reason it was a bad time. Who I bought lingerie for, modeled, and was asked to "get out of the way." Who listened to me cry in bed and did not even roll over to hug me. Who found some validation that he wasn't the only man who wasn't sexual and used that to say "See! I'm normal! I don't have to do anything!" Who, one night, when he could tell I was sad, sighed and huffed and came into the bedroom and said, "Okay, fine, let's get it over with."

Thanks for making that delineation. Perhaps antithetical to the male stereotype but we can feel exactly the same way; the difference is in socialization regarding how we process it and in practice, how society accepts such communications from a man, as evidenced in this thread. Much as, apparently, women do, men also seek and value the safe haven of their bedroom and intimacy to uplift and add context and meaning to their lives and, when denied such intimacy, regardless of reasons or rationalizations or issues, it generally goes to the same place as for any other human, the place of rejection.

 

Each man processes the interactions and acts in his own unique way. Some would rather die than admit they've been neglected, abandoned or abused. Others simply process in silence. Others have outbursts. Others get angry and commit abusive acts themselves. In general, anger is an emotion which is validated in men so it is one often seen in men. Hurt is much less validated and seen, again, generally.

[autumnnight]

Thanks for making that delineation. Perhaps antithetical to the male stereotype but we can feel exactly the same way; the difference is in socialization regarding how we process it and in practice, how society accepts such communications from a man, as evidenced in this thread. Much as, apparently, women do, men also seek and value the safe haven of their bedroom and intimacy to uplift and add context and meaning to their lives and, when denied such intimacy, regardless of reasons or rationalizations or issues, it generally goes to the same place as for any other human, the place of rejection.

 

Each man processes the interactions and acts in his own unique way. Some would rather die than admit they've been neglected, abandoned or abused. Others simply process in silence. Others have outbursts. Others get angry and commit abusive acts themselves. In general, anger is an emotion which is validated in men so it is one often seen in men. Hurt is much less validated and seen, again, generally.

 

 

Thank you. For me, sex and romantic love are inextricably linked. It is one of the reasons I could never have a casual FWB. If I have romantic love for you, I am going to want physical intimacy, and the more physical intimacy, the closer, more bonded, and more deeply committed I am going to feel. Conversely, if I have no physical intimacy, eventually that bond is just cracked and broken, I feel distant and frustrated, I feel rejected, and the romantic love will die.

 

It is a this point that someone will straighten their back, adjust their glasses, purse their lips, and remind me that silly feelings fade and "love is a choice," and "commitment is a decision." No shyte Sherlock. I know that. That is why I stayed 20 years. But for me, with MY individual and perfectly valid makeup, it was a slow death. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with needing physical intimacy.

[Phoenician]

I think I finally understand the miscommunication.

 

In my case, I am not talking about a man who "is not feeling sexual toward another individual." I am not talking about a man who just wasn't in the mood at times. I am not talking about a man I mistreated into disconnecting.

 

I am talking about a man who passive aggressively refused sex, who made it clear he was not going to step up through his inaction, who, when I would reach the end of my rope, would promise to change and beg me to stay only to NOT do anything. Who would tell me to initiate because "he just doesn't think about it," and when I would, there was always a reason it was a bad time. Who I bought lingerie for, modeled, and was asked to "get out of the way." Who listened to me cry in bed and did not even roll over to hug me. Who found some validation that he wasn't the only man who wasn't sexual and used that to say "See! I'm normal! I don't have to do anything!" Who, one night, when he could tell I was sad, sighed and huffed and came into the bedroom and said, "Okay, fine, let's get it over with."

 

That isn't a man who "just doesn't feel sexual." That is a man who intentionally hurts.

 

 

wow !

i feel sorry for you ,

and I see your husband is a clone of my wife !

[Phoenician]

Thank you. For me, sex and romantic love are inextricably linked. It is one of the reasons I could never have a casual FWB. If I have romantic love for you, I am going to want physical intimacy, and the more physical intimacy, the closer, more bonded, and more deeply committed I am going to feel. Conversely, if I have no physical intimacy, eventually that bond is just cracked and broken, I feel distant and frustrated, I feel rejected, and the romantic love will die.

 

It is a this point that someone will straighten their back, adjust their glasses, purse their lips, and remind me that silly feelings fade and "love is a choice," and "commitment is a decision." No shyte Sherlock. I know that. That is why I stayed 20 years. But for me, with MY individual and perfectly valid makeup, it was a slow death. And you know what? There is nothing wrong with needing physical intimacy.

 

 

I was described to be abnormal when I tried once per week to be intimate with her ...

 

it is a crime!

[autumnnight]

When push comes to shove, I do not really care if someone calls it abuse. What I hate is the minimization and question of whether I have been good enough to "earn" it.

 

It's like, if I had stage 4 lung cancer, and someone says, "well, lots of people cough." It's apples and watermelons.

 

I get it. Some people need the stage to be set correctly to feel like sex, and if something happens that upsets them they feel it is appropriate to express their displeasure by not having sex. I also get that sometimes people are sick or extremely tired.

 

That isn't what I lived. And I am tired of people trying to give me cold medicine for stage 4 cancer. People comparing a stubbed toe to a leg amputation.

 

And then, when it is obvious I am posting "from a place of hurt," which is the phrase that gets lots of other scenarios a pass (like a BS)....I'm scolded or hit with sarcasm.

 

Believe it or not, there is not only ONE kind of marital hurt that really really REALLY hurts.

[Phoenician]

I am with equality of genders ,

but we can't forget that man express their love through physical intimacy , it is the love language they know ;

 

Admire all feedbacks from various ppl , male and female , when i stressed in trying to know the normal behavior of a women ;it was to understand how i should react .

 

i admit after 20 years with a single women , my experience maybe in dealing with a lady is modest now .

 

irrespective which side of the story is true , mine her or the truth , i clearly now believe that a partner shall not trigger a women hate or disgust; but the norm is that anger over small things shall not be normally in days ... (iam not acting smarter or claim to be one)-no high IQ is needed to consider for ex a simple thing as simple or silly ;

 

i reassure now as others said , no matter if it is abuse , the main issue is not in a sex initiation , this is just the symptom; selfish bpd is the main cause ...

 

automn , i reaaly understand every word u said ; and wish u the best my dear

[travelbug1996]

After reading this thread and the debate about whether or not the OP is being "abused" or not is really irrelevant.

 

We have all been given the power of choice. while the OP is definitely being deprived of having his basic sexual needs met in his marriage, he has also noted that he WILL NOT BE leaving his family or cheating. Therefore, he will continue to make a choice to stay with someone that he KNOWS will deprive him. That is his choice. Now he just needs to own it and deal with it.

 

No victims here, only volunteers.

 

This reminds me of the story of the howling dog lying on a nail. He'd stop howling if/when he gets his ass off the nail. Only he can make the choice.

 

It takes two to tango and the OP has been dancing with his wife for a long time. He knows who she is. He just has problems accepting her.

 

Your life is the sum total of the choices you make. If you don't like your life, face your fears and make better choices.

Edited May 23, 2015 by travelbug1996

[autumnnight]

Those of us who have suffered in a sexless marriage appreciate your sensitive and empathetic comments

 

No victims here, only volunteers.

[travelbug1996]

Those of us who have suffered in a sexless marriage appreciate your sensitive and empathetic comments

 

 

I'm not trying to be insensitive but people have choices. You made the choice to suffer in a sexless relationship. Me personally, would NEVER EVER stay with someone who habitually rejected and neglected my needs.

 

But that's me and my CHOICE.

[autumnnight]

I'm not trying to be insensitive but people have choices. You made the choice to suffer in a sexless relationship. Me personally, would NEVER EVER stay with someone who habitually rejected and neglected my needs.

 

But that's me and my CHOICE.

 

So I volunteered to be starved, I chose to stay because I like torture (it couldn't possibly be because I wanted to honor my marriage vows in spite of the pain), and now I see how much better someone like you is than a volunteer like me.

 

You should be a motivational speaker

 

Any pretzel we can twist into to avoid saying that sexual refusal is flat out WRONG

[carhill]

Absent forceful imprisonment, sure, anyone can remove themselves from an environment they perceive to be abusive at any time. Time is the key, meaning timeline, when describing the dynamic. *After* the acts have occurred and perception of them as abusive, neglectful or abandoning is sensed, *then* a choice is available to act upon. That choice can be simple or complex, depending upon circumstances.

 

Save for scientific experiments where people volunteer to be the subjects, very few people volunteer to be killed, tortured, abused, neglected or abandoned. It goes against elementary human nature. We do, however, experience such acts in life, not of our own volition, and *then* have choices to make. That we later have a choice and act on that choice in our own individual manner does not obviate the act which precipitated the choice.

 

Hence, if a man or woman is deprived sex once and *then* chooses to divorce or leave their partner at that moment, they have made a choice. If they choose to address that issue via communication, they have made a choice. If they choose to say or do nothing, they have made a choice. Each choice presents a completely unique and different potential timeline and procession of events along that timeline. None of this obviates the causal event, itself a part of a unique timeline.

 

In re-reading, I liked how the OP titled the thread using 'an abuse'; this recognizes or indicates that there are many abuses and each is individual and stands alone in its scope and effect and perception of extent. As an example, 'sexual abuse' through denial of sex could be perceived as less serious than 'physical abuse', something now known as domestic violence. Still, it could be perceived as 'an abuse', with the perception turning upon the individual. Where a bunch of individuals agree and lobby, that's how we get laws.

[autumnnight]

Funny how we sympathize with a BS who can't "just leave," but a person starved for intimacy is a volunteer.

[xxoo]

I think I finally understand the miscommunication.

 

In my case, I am not talking about a man who "is not feeling sexual toward another individual." I am not talking about a man who just wasn't in the mood at times. I am not talking about a man I mistreated into disconnecting.

 

I am talking about a man who passive aggressively refused sex, who made it clear he was not going to step up through his inaction, who, when I would reach the end of my rope, would promise to change and beg me to stay only to NOT do anything. Who would tell me to initiate because "he just doesn't think about it," and when I would, there was always a reason it was a bad time. Who I bought lingerie for, modeled, and was asked to "get out of the way." Who listened to me cry in bed and did not even roll over to hug me. Who found some validation that he wasn't the only man who wasn't sexual and used that to say "See! I'm normal! I don't have to do anything!" Who, one night, when he could tell I was sad, sighed and huffed and came into the bedroom and said, "Okay, fine, let's get it over with."

 

That isn't a man who "just doesn't feel sexual." That is a man who intentionally hurts.

 

Do you think he did feel sexual, but intentionally denied you sex to hurt you?

 

I do think he should have done something, for example be honest about his lack of desire to have sex with you....ever. But it doesn't sound like faking interest and having sex he doesn't want to have was a good option.