In the interest of moving on

[Grapesofwrath]

How often did you keep in touch with MM while you were not seeing him?

 

We were in touch regularly. Most mornings, he texts me first thing to say good morning. If we're working on the same campus, he would take me out for lunch a couple times a week. If he was spending the evening in town, he might call to chat or will text with me if I can't talk on the phone. So he kept in touch pretty consistently.

[Morbius]

We were in touch regularly. Most mornings, he texts me first thing to say good morning. If we're working on the same campus, he would take me out for lunch a couple times a week. If he was spending the evening in town, he might call to chat or will text with me if I can't talk on the phone. So he kept in touch pretty consistently.

 

New to this thread. Is it conceivable that the man you went on the retreat with sensed you were not all in and backed off? It seems the MOM was always on your mind, and you were not moving on as your thread title implied. When this burgeoning relationship did not go as you planned, you immediately fell back into old disruptive patterns. That is not moving on. Additionally, when the MOM knew of your plans to go on this retreat, he got mad and you liked it. It was powerful that your seeking companionship elsewhere upset your MOM. Intoxicating?

 

Now you are back where you started a little over a month into this thread. I understand your belief this neighbor may not have been ready, but does that mean you toss him out and run back to the MOM? Not to be disrespectful, but did you really want this to work? Once MOM got mad it was like you accomplished your goal, and blew off the neighbor and run back to the MOM.

 

A person coming off a divorce is going to have mixed and confusing emotions, and depending on the divorce circumstances, baggage. You knew this man for a while, and felt connected yet when push came to shove you went back to the MOM.

 

Grapes, you deserve better than a part time lover filling your life. I suggest you get back up, dust yourself off and move forward without the safety net of the MOM. I can't see how you can commit to another as long as you have MOM as a back up plan when something in the relationship by your estimation goes wrong. MOM as a fallback plan will never let you move forward. You know this.

 

Points to ponder.

[Popsicle]

GrapesofWrath, since you've almost given up on the neighbor, it wouldn't be a bad idea to tell him that you were hoping that he was interested, but he acts as if he isn't, and if he's not then it's okay, you will still remain his friend and continue to help him out. See what he says/does after that.

 

There is nothing for you to lose in saying this.

[Hope Shimmers]

New to this thread. Is it conceivable that the man you went on the retreat with sensed you were not all in and backed off? It seems the MOM was always on your mind, and you were not moving on as your thread title implied. When this burgeoning relationship did not go as you planned, you immediately fell back into old disruptive patterns. That is not moving on. Additionally, when the MOM knew of your plans to go on this retreat, he got mad and you liked it. It was powerful that your seeking companionship elsewhere upset your MOM. Intoxicating?

 

Now you are back where you started a little over a month into this thread. I understand your belief this neighbor may not have been ready, but does that mean you toss him out and run back to the MOM? Not to be disrespectful, but did you really want this to work? Once MOM got mad it was like you accomplished your goal, and blew off the neighbor and run back to the MOM.

 

A person coming off a divorce is going to have mixed and confusing emotions, and depending on the divorce circumstances, baggage. You knew this man for a while, and felt connected yet when push came to shove you went back to the MOM.

 

Grapes, you deserve better than a part time lover filling your life. I suggest you get back up, dust yourself off and move forward without the safety net of the MOM. I can't see how you can commit to another as long as you have MOM as a back up plan when something in the relationship by your estimation goes wrong. MOM as a fallback plan will never let you move forward. You know this.

 

Points to ponder.

 

Ten characters

Edited June 17, 2015 by Hope Shimmers

[Grapesofwrath]

New to this thread. Is it conceivable that the man you went on the retreat with sensed you were not all in and backed off? It seems the MOM was always on your mind, and you were not moving on as your thread title implied. When this burgeoning relationship did not go as you planned, you immediately fell back into old disruptive patterns. That is not moving on. Additionally, when the MOM knew of your plans to go on this retreat, he got mad and you liked it. It was powerful that your seeking companionship elsewhere upset your MOM. Intoxicating?

 

Now you are back where you started a little over a month into this thread. I understand your belief this neighbor may not have been ready, but does that mean you toss him out and run back to the MOM? Not to be disrespectful, but did you really want this to work? Once MOM got mad it was like you accomplished your goal, and blew off the neighbor and run back to the MOM.

 

A person coming off a divorce is going to have mixed and confusing emotions, and depending on the divorce circumstances, baggage. You knew this man for a while, and felt connected yet when push came to shove you went back to the MOM.

 

Grapes, you deserve better than a part time lover filling your life. I suggest you get back up, dust yourself off and move forward without the safety net of the MOM. I can't see how you can commit to another as long as you have MOM as a back up plan when something in the relationship by your estimation goes wrong. MOM as a fallback plan will never let you move forward. You know this.

 

Points to ponder.

 

Morbius: Thank you for the thoughtful post. I've been pondering. I agree that this represents a step backward and that I deserve better. I disagree, however, that I have been holding back with the neighbor because it's the MM I really want. I didn't "toss him out." He is still part of my life. I just think nothing romantic is in the offing right now. I knew the neighbor first, wanted to be with him first, and would prefer to be with him, but I don't think he's ready. Not yet, anyway. He is still pretty raw from his divorce and that is totally understandable. So it's more like the MM is the back-up plan for the neighbor, not the other way around.

 

I feel like I've been available to him, especially given our history, but I also know that timing is everything and I don't think we're aligned on that yet. The error, for me, is allowing my disappointment and mild feelings of rejection to drive me back to MM. That's where I need to really ponder. Why not just have no one for a while? Enjoy other things for a while? I have been alone for long periods so I know I can do it. I just don't want to. I think I'm also struggling with a pending birthday (49) and what that means to me.

[jen1447]

Who wants to have no one when you could easily have someone? I think that's a pretty common conundrum, where the 'easy' or obvious answer is actually hard to carry out (and seemingly pointless?), and the 'wrong' answer is easy and deliciously available. Sort of like chocolate.

 

I guess the question is what's really wrong or right, and how much does either really matter?

[MuddyFootprints]

Ah, but isn't it the quality of the chocolate that makes it truly delectable?

[Morbius]

Morbius: Thank you for the thoughtful post. I've been pondering. I agree that this represents a step backward and that I deserve better. I disagree, however, that I have been holding back with the neighbor because it's the MM I really want. I didn't "toss him out." He is still part of my life. I just think nothing romantic is in the offing right now. I knew the neighbor first, wanted to be with him first, and would prefer to be with him, but I don't think he's ready. Not yet, anyway. He is still pretty raw from his divorce and that is totally understandable. So it's more like the MM is the back-up plan for the neighbor, not the other way around.

 

I feel like I've been available to him, especially given our history, but I also know that timing is everything and I don't think we're aligned on that yet. The error, for me, is allowing my disappointment and mild feelings of rejection to drive me back to MM. That's where I need to really ponder. Why not just have no one for a while? Enjoy other things for a while? I have been alone for long periods so I know I can do it. I just don't want to. I think I'm also struggling with a pending birthday (49) and what that means to me.

 

I think you are correct with what and who to ponder on. To understand that this mild rejection drove you back to MM is a key. Add to this your concern of loneliness and pending birthday, you sought out for lack of a better term false comfort.

 

You really like this neighbor, it is very obvious. I am glad you spoke out in your post with great conviction who you want to be with, and admitted the MM was a back up plan. I think that is also another key.

 

You did not respond about the MM being angry that you went on this retreat. Did he know ahead of time your intentions or after you went? Did you feel that him being upset gave you power? Another key.

 

I understand you not wanting to be alone, but is the MM and the relationship what you need, or do you want to put this behind and truly move forward? That is the final key.

 

We both know you deserve better and that is where eliminating the safety net will help you move forward. Use these four keys to unlock your future.

 

And of course:

 

GrapesofWrath, since you've almost given up on the neighbor, it wouldn't be a bad idea to tell him that you were hoping that he was interested, but he acts as if he isn't, and if he's not then it's okay, you will still remain his friend and continue to help him out. See what he says/does after that.

 

There is nothing for you to lose in saying this.

 

 

^^There is nothing for you to lose, and everything to gain if you want.^^

 

 

I actually really like you - you had so much resolve in your last thread that im surprised you went back there and am genuinely feeling sorry for you.

My advice is stop - in the Long term it destroys you. Right now you're back to bargaining why this is ok. But the fact that 'no overnights' means you'd end it shows me that you can only exist in an affair as much as it feels like a normally relationshi so you can have a level of denial that you're boyfriend isn't really your boyfriend - that he's a married mad committed to some else who only makes space in his life for you as far as it's convenient for him. When it's not convenient you're discarded.

 

I think you should go back and read all the advice you got last time, because i think you're just stuck. But hey, prove me wrong.

 

 

^^A bulls eye if I ever saw one.^^

 

When his son is staying with me, he is at home with his daughter. The one night that I had both of them with me, he was out of town on business. It has definitely crossed my mind that he has someone else. Wouldn't surprise me.

 

^^Do you really believe this to be the case or is it rationalization not to move forward and stay stuck in a nowhere relationship because it is easy?^^

 

Who wants to have no one when you could easily have someone? I think that's a pretty common conundrum, where the 'easy' or obvious answer is actually hard to carry out (and seemingly pointless?), and the 'wrong' answer is easy and deliciously available. Sort of like chocolate.

 

I guess the question is what's really wrong or right, and how much does either really matter?

 

 

^^If you truly wish to move on, and to borrow the chocolate analogy. It's time to throw out the M&M's and choose a new box of quality delectable chocolates that take a bit longer to make because he is, and you are, worth it...^^

[Owl6118]

Grapes, I was very affected by your hospital thread and have thought about it often since.

 

That moment-- the moment when he told you not to reach out to him and just stuff your concern and wait, to just stuff your feelings at the moment when you most needed to show love and support. Which was also a moment when a man who should simply have been recovering was diverting his attention to the logistics of managing his lies and double lives. Which was also a moment when a woman was placed in the pathetic situation of (unknowingly) incoveniencing her husband because her presence at his sickbed was, at least for an instant, an awkward and unwelcome complication for her man, not a comfort.

 

There is nothing healthy in any of this. Nothing life-giving. I hope someday you will chose life, not this non-life and non-love.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Owl6118

[Grapesofwrath]

I

You did not respond about the MM being angry that you went on this retreat. Did he know ahead of time your intentions or after you went? Did you feel that him being upset gave you power? Another key./QUOTE]

 

He wasn't angry about the retreat. He was supportive, but became a little jealous when he realized I was going with a man. He didn't get upset. It was just the tone of his voice and the look on his face that gave him away. We agreed long ago that I can see other people (no brainer), and he knows I sometimes do. He will occasionally ask if I want to tell him about it, and I don't. So while we have that agreement, he does recognize that I want more and should have it, and when that time comes this relationship will end.

 

I understand you not wanting to be alone, but is the MM and the relationship what you need, or do you want to put this behind and truly move forward? That is the final key.

 

We spent the evening together last night. It was fun. Had dinner, watched the ballgame, snuggled on the couch. etc. As mentioned here, it does create the illusion of a boyfriend. In his defense, he does a good job of working around my schedule, not the the other way around. Except weekends, he makes himself available to me on the days that I am free to see him, and he has to move a lot of things around to make that happen, but he does it without complaint.

 

We talked a little last night about his past infidelities, and I was a bit shocked by his lack of remorse and insight. He described one by saying, "I just couldn't turn my back on that opportunity." He really just doesn't get it. Conversations like this help me get to the point of ending it. Not because of any external factors...or even because I "deserve" more. (I'm not sure people deserve anything, really). But I will end it because, ultimately, he's not a good enough man for me to commit myself to him. He is entitled. Selfish. An opportunist. And a liar. Not qualities I seek in a long-term partner. Having already gone through a divorce from someone like that (though my xH was not a cheater, he lied about a lot of other things) I do not ever want to go through that again.

[Gloria_Smellons]

But I will end it because, ultimately, he's not a good enough man for me to commit myself to him. He is entitled. Selfish. An opportunist. And a liar. Not qualities I seek in a long-term partner. Having already gone through a divorce from someone like that (though my xH was not a cheater, he lied about a lot of other things) I do not ever want to go through that again.

 

But you are going through it again, right now.

[jen1447]

^^If you truly wish to move on, and to borrow the chocolate analogy. It's time to throw out the M&M's and choose a new box of quality delectable chocolates that take a bit longer to make because he is, and you are, worth it...^^

 

But how do we know MM's an M&M (haha), and what if OP really likes M&Ms regardless?

[Southern Sun]

We talked a little last night about his past infidelities, and I was a bit shocked by his lack of remorse and insight. He described one by saying, "I just couldn't turn my back on that opportunity."

 

Ohhh, Grapes. Blech. Just...you know exactly what he is. This one thing is enough. It made me physically sick reading this. I could almost see the glibness. It's something my xMM would say.

[Grapesofwrath]

But you are going through it again, right now.

 

Not quite the same thing, Gloria, but close. I was referring to being married to and then divorcing someone like this. Meaning that I would not want a future with MM because of what I know to be true of his character. Sometimes I am overcome by a wave of anguish for his wife and children, who probably look to him as the family leader and a "good man." I wonder if she knows, on some level, what he is really all about. Is it possible to be with a man for this long and not know the true nature of his character? I think it might be.

 

TBH, all of this, and reading the posts on LS, gives me great pause. I question deeply the institution of marriage, the concept of intimacy and honesty between partners, and wonder if it's possible to really know someone.

[Grapesofwrath]

We talked a little last night about his past infidelities, and I was a bit shocked by his lack of remorse and insight. He described one by saying, "I just couldn't turn my back on that opportunity."

 

Ohhh, Grapes. Blech. Just...you know exactly what he is. This one thing is enough. It made me physically sick reading this. I could almost see the glibness. It's something my xMM would say.

 

Wanna know what's worse? If my math is correct...he participated in this "escapade" while his wife was pregnant with his first-born child. That may not be true, but I think it could be.

[Sassy Girl]

He sounds like a bit of a pig who sees women as "opportunities" and treats them like they are disposable.

 

So what's the plan, Grapes? You sticking with him for now?

[whichwayisup]

Wanna know what's worse? If my math is correct...he participated in this "escapade" while his wife was pregnant with his first-born child. That may not be true, but I think it could be.

 

But I will end it because, ultimately, he's not a good enough man for me to commit myself to him. He is entitled. Selfish. An opportunist. And a liar. Not qualities I seek in a long-term partner.

 

What's stopping you from ending it now?

[Morbius]

We talked a little last night about his past infidelities, and I was a bit shocked by his lack of remorse and insight. He described one by saying, "I just couldn't turn my back on that opportunity."

 

He really just doesn't get it.

 

Conversations like this help me get to the point of ending it. Not because of any external factors...or even because I "deserve" more. (I'm not sure people deserve anything, really). But I will end it because, ultimately, he's not a good enough man for me to commit myself to him. He is entitled. Selfish. An opportunist. And a liar. Not qualities I seek in a long-term partner.

 

 

He sounds like a bit of a pig who sees women as "opportunities" and treats them like they are disposable.

 

So what's the plan, Grapes? You sticking with him for now?

 

 

With the qualities I have bolded I can't see him as a short term partner nor even as an acquaintance...You are nothing more than an opportunity, and if not you it would be somebody else, and who is to say his infidelities are in the past? He is cheating on his W with you, and when opportunity knocks...

 

MOM really may not get it, but I don't think you do either. There is nothing wrong having a FWB relationship. But knowing his history, and how he dangled and still is dangling you, this MOM is more than a bit of a pig. I wouldn't want any benefit from him.

 

And yes, you do deserve better. I would approach your neighbor, the one you care for and tell him you want to be FWB, NSA. You have already been intimate. What have you got to lose? Not a darn thing. But you have everything to gain.

 

*****

 

If happiness was easy anybody could do it. I believed I didn't deserved happiness after what I did to this caring wonderful woman who is my dear friend. I thought I lost her forever...and it hurt, not because I hurt, but because she hurt, it was devastating. :'( She needed me, and I f**ked up and almost destroyed a beautiful thing. Almost

 

Yesterday was the best darn day ever for me. My dark clouds are dissipating, and the future is bright. And it was because she reached out to me. She...reached...out...to...me.

 

She contacted me, and we talked, really talked. And by her forgiveness her grace, I am the luckiest man in the world.

 

She does not like the word never, as in never say never. I started a sentence with, "I could never..." and before I uttered another word, she immediately "scolded" me and of course she is right.

 

But in this instance I will NEVER betray her again, and before anyone jumps to conclusions it was not the usual betrayal culprits.

 

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions...and by her grace my road to Hell is now closed. More important, I have my dear friend back. People, the first half of 2015 has been brutally painful for her, no one deserved what she went through, and was put through. I was a part of her pain too. Despite this, it was her who reached out; it was her, not me, her. She still believed in me, in us. I was not strong, she was not only strong but courageous. She took a leap of faith, and I will NEVER forget it, because it means the world to me and she does too. There's that darn word again.

 

Second chances are rare, and I damn well will not screw this one up. This is also probably my last post for the foreseeable future.

 

*****

 

Sorry for this brief thread jack, but it does apply, and the point I was making is this.

 

Sometimes Grapes, you gotta take the bull by the horns and go for it. You can do this. Don't give up until you are lying next to him enjoying his arms around you.

Make him the new luckiest man in the world, because you had the courage to step up.

 

I'd rather you regret doing something, than not doing something. So take that leap Grapes!

Edited June 19, 2015 by Morbius

[norudder]

about him just not getting it I used to take it personally but now I see him as an emotional Lenny from mice and men he wants love so bad and just doesn't realize he's hurting peopleand isn't normal

[Grapesofwrath]

What's stopping me? Really...nothing.

 

He spent the night with me last night again. Very cozy. Very intimate. Very boyfriend/girlfriend. ("The more I know you, the more I love you.") But this morning, it was back to reality. BS texting him madly this morning, first thing. The awareness that he is going on vacation with his family next week and there will be a "black out" period. His niece moving in to the family house in August to go to university which means he will have a roomate. I told him this morning that the latter will spell the end for us, and that I think this is a good thing. He agreed that it's good in some ways (end it before a DDay "before anyone gets hurt" and bad in some ways ("I don't want it to end. i want it to go on and on.")

 

It is my nature to seek to understand why people do the things they do. When I look at the MM, the possible explanations for his behavior are varied, and mostly reprehensible. He offers no decent explanations, himself. He said something last night about "living in denial." Not sure what that meant, but in the context of our conversation I think he meant that he lives in denial about his feelings about his marriage and what he really wants from life to be happy. Either way, I'm left, once again, feeling abandoned and hollow in the relationship because of the circumstances.

 

There is no reason for me to do this to myself any further. I've seen this movie now, more than once. The only decision now is when to run the credits. I feel ready to just go for it now.