Reconcilation and lowered expectations/standards

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

But what makes me really frustrated is when she says that it is me who is breaking up our family because she wants to move on and I am the one who keeps taking divorce and doing this to our kids. And I cannot put in words back to her why this is so wrong to put it on me. I am just reacting to her infidelity.

Baloney.

 

She put you in this position. When she decided to stray, it was on her. There was nothing you could have done about it.

 

That was good and fine for her at the time.

 

Now she's been exposed and wants back in. That's your decision, and it's on you. There is nothing she can do about it.

 

It's perfectly fair, even if she refuses to see it as such.

[the_artist_1970]

I did contact his wife. But essentially she didn't care. They apparently have an open relationship. Which made all the more. She associates our family with folks like that.

 

But what makes me really frustrated is when she says that it is me who is breaking up our family because she wants to move on and I am the one who keeps taking divorce and doing this to our kids. And I cannot put in words back to her why this is so wrong to put it on me. I am just reacting to her infidelity.

 

Her dad is a pastor and her family keeps telling her that Jesus has forgiven her and that I am just tormenting her by not getting over it.

 

And with all these ups and down, she thinks I am doing it to punish her. How convenient ... She screwed up, she repented and now I should move on ... Never minds the small inconvenient fact that I now find myself married to a cheater. I know it sounds silly ... But I didn't sign up for this?

 

If you go to bestbuy and your purchase turns up a dud, what so you do? You didn't pay for that! Take back to the store. Similarly , I didn't marry a cheater. Return!

 

Sorry I now I am just venting like a brat

 

This is called gaslighting. Your WW has no business putting that on you. At this point you have a right to divorce her because SHE broke the M vows. Your W wanting to blow this over shows that she has an inflated sense of entitlement. I know I wouldn't have rebuilt the M if my DH had that sense of entitlement that I see waywards on this board have. Yes, God may have forgiven her but you need time because you are human and you have a choice in whether you want to stay with her after what she did. Honestly, the road to rebuilding is VERY hard but with someone like your W it will be almost impossible.

[the_artist_1970]

You are totally correct and I struggle with the same feelings ( wife cheated with a married man, got pregnant, confessed and had abortion) still with her (2 kids)

Busying myself and am there for the kids but I will never trust my wife again and it has revealed an ugly side of her personality that I never knew was there.

 

We just co-parent and coexist for now and we never really had a sex life before her affair anyway. But it's the knowledge of what she did, those memories she must have, did they laugh about me behind my back? Do things we never did? Who knows, but I try to push it to the back of my mind and work on myself. I am above this ****, and there is a better woman out there for me

 

If you and your W are just co-parenting and not truly rebuilding one of you will cheat again. Few ppl can go without intimacy and remain faithful. Co-parenting and coexisting is not a good way to live.

[merrmeade]

Esther Perlman's TED Talk just came to my email as a TT notification: Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | Talk Video | TED.com

 

I really liked what she says at the end about reconciliation, though she never uses that word:

I look at affairs from a dual perspective: hurt and betrayal on one side, growth and self-discovery on the other -- what it did to you, and what it meant for me. And so when a couple comes to me in the aftermath of an affair that has been revealed, I will often tell them this: Today in the West, most of us are going to have two or three relationships or marriages, and some of us are going to do it with the same person. Your first marriage is over. Would you like to create a second one together?

It kind of annoys me at the same time because it makes me (everybody involved) have to focus on us instead of me. (sort of kidding)

[johnbol2]

As a Christian, tell her father that although Jesus has forgiven her, Jesus also says: "But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery" (Matthew 5:32).

 

Her dad is trying to do damage control and he's doing a terrible job. DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM. They are trying to blame shift and bring the guilt upon you. Divorce her without hesitation as you have EVERY right to do so, even according to Jesus if her father tries to bring up that argument. Even though God created marriage and hates divorce, God does allow divorce in the case of infidelity because it is such a disgusting act.

 

Please let me know if you read this, I don't want them to brainwash you.

 

Thank you for this. I didn't know about this in the Bible

[johnbol2]

Thank you everyone for your posts. Too many great responses to single out any.

 

It sucks to be a betrayed spouse. It makes you realize that your marriage and life have been a lie. Because you had thought yours was a life where your partner could never do this. And you come to realize that your life had never been that . I.e., that you had always been married to a cheater. Because it takes a cheater to cheat

[drifter777]

Thank you everyone for your posts. Too many great responses to single out any.

 

It sucks to be a betrayed spouse. It makes you realize that your marriage and life have been a lie. Because you had thought yours was a life where your partner could never do this. And you come to realize that your life had never been that . I.e., that you had always been married to a cheater. Because it takes a cheater to cheat

You seem like a good guy. I hope you get the courage to divorce her and start a new life sooner rather then later. We didn't deserve to be betrayed. We do deserve to be whole again.

[fellini]

Thank you everyone for your posts. Too many great responses to single out any.

 

It sucks to be a betrayed spouse. It makes you realize that your marriage and life have been a lie. Because you had thought yours was a life where your partner could never do this. And you come to realize that your life had never been that . I.e., that you had always been married to a cheater. Because it takes a cheater to cheat

 

Well I for one disagree entirely about your fundamental premise: WE CHEAT BECAUSE WE ARE CHEATERS.

 

You might want to believe this about your spouse, and you might want to believe your marriage was a lie from the words I do. But if you actually do the deep reflexive work with more emphasis on reason and less on gut response to pain, you will surely see the folly, worse, impossibility in that statement.

 

My WW is a cheater because she cheated. She did not cheat because she is a cheater.

 

The difference is the difference between choice and biological determinism.

 

I hope you find a way to make peace with yourself. I truly do not believe removing free will from every single living and dead soul that ever walked the earth is the adequate one.

[drifter777]

Change your thinking and you will change your emotional reaction and thus feel better. This often works for people when they are suffering from garden-variety depression or anxiety from obsessive worry - things like that. Severe trauma, including PTSD, are defined by the graphic, intrusive memories and visions of the event. For many BH the level of trauma rises to a PTSD-like event so this "fake it till you make it" approach is not used by professional counselors. Working with that person to focus on facing the horrors of the event(s) to try to take away their power is one of the primary treatments. When the event is military a counselor will strongly advise that patient leave the military to reduce the triggers that are inherent in everyday life. That's why I always advocate divorce to BH's. I believe the percentage of men who will truly recover is so small that the smart thing is to just end things. Like other PTSD sufferer's, removing the triggers of everyday life - such as seeing her - dramatically reduce his triggers.

[nightmare01]

I think that the BS usually goes through a lot of negative self focused internal dialogue. We feel worthless and discarded. We loved someone who acted in the most un-loving way toward us, so we figure they didn't and maybe never did love us. And if that's the case then we are un-lovable.

 

In all this we are relying on the actions of another to determine our self worth. And that IMO is what needs to change.

 

I was stuck in that place for a long time.

 

Now everyone's path is different. For me, I had to take a hard look at myself, and actually make a plan wherein if I were on my own with out my WW, that I would be fine. It took that to separate myself from depending on my WW for my self worth. By doing that I saw that I would be more than fine if I were on my own, that I would in fact thrive.

 

Once I changed that perspective I was able to stand on my own, and actually feel good about who I am and where I am going with my life. I became strong and confident because I didn't need her. I wanted her to stay with me, but I didn't need her to.

 

So I allowed her the opportunity to make changes and stay with me. This was a privilege I granted her - but it was of course conditional. I was able to see myself as the prize, and if she wanted that prize she would have to work for it.

 

Again - it's a long road that follows a different path for everyone. For me it worked to build myself up first, then consider if my WW was worthy enough to stay with me.

[turnera]

we never really had a sex life before her affair anyway

Yes, there IS a better woman out there for you. If she really loved you, barring abuse in her past, she would have WANTED to have sex with you and would have enjoyed it. I'll assume you were a convenience for her.

 

That said, she COULD be the way she is because of an overbearing, self-righteous pastor for a father. I wasn't abused, but my self-righteous brother who raised me during the teen years taught me that sex is horrible and I'm horrible if I do it, and I can't undo that. It's quite possible she has this in her brain and would need help (therapy) to get it out, to 'free' herself to become a sexual being with you.

 

Has that been addressed?

Edited May 24, 2015 by turnera

[drifter777]

Yes, there IS a better woman out there for you. If she really loved you, barring abuse in her past, she would have WANTED to have sex with you and would have enjoyed it. I'll assume you were a convenience for her.

 

That said, she COULD be the way she is because of an overbearing, self-righteous pastor for a father. I wasn't abused, but my self-righteous brother who raised me during the teen years taught me that sex is horrible and I'm horrible if I do it, and I can't undo that. It's quite possible she has this in her brain and would need help (therapy) to get it out, to 'free' herself to become a sexual being with you.

 

Has that been addressed?

 

But she can be a sexual being with another man? Really? And you ask him if its been "addressed" as if he has some responsibility for her pathology?

[jnel921]

I agree with some of the other posters that you may still be angry. I was angry knowing that my H was a certain way and willing to sext and send dirty pics to another woman when he has never done so with me. Honestly as hurt as I felt I didn't expect him to. I told him what I expected. What would ease my thoughts and heal my pain.

 

She may have sent you those texts and not said anything when she got home because you didn't respond. I think that's a normal response.

 

If she is reaching out to another man or really showing you that she doesn't want to be in this M then you have reason to walk. If not then do your part in helping with the R process. 9 months is still too fresh. It takes time. Once you open your heart and do new things with each other things will change.

 

I am 2 and a half years past D-Day and things are good. They can be for you too.

 

Good Luck.

[turnera]

But she can be a sexual being with another man? Really? And you ask him if its been "addressed" as if he has some responsibility for her pathology?

As her husband, it IS his responsibility to say "I'm not happy with the status of our marriage; what are we going to do about it?" If it turns out there IS a pathology, he has to then determine whether his marriage vows included staying with a mentally compromised person. But NOT saying something makes it at least partially his problem.

[travelbug1996]

"Is she a bad woman who did a bad thing or is she a good woman who did a bad thing?"

[Buckeye2]

But what makes me really frustrated is when she says that it is me who is breaking up our family because she wants to move on and I am the one who keeps taking divorce and doing this to our kids.

 

Her dad is a pastor and her family keeps telling her that Jesus has forgiven her and that I am just tormenting her by not getting over it.

 

The situation is very uncomfortable for your wife and her family. You have the power to make it all go away. Of course you’re the bad guy. Your wife is off the hook because she can’t change the past. You’re on the hook because you can change the future.

 

I had a similar situation with a worthless cousin. I’ve always saved and he would spend his last nickel. He had money problems and everyone knew I could write a check and fix everything for him. Of course I was the bad guy if I didn’t.

 

According to her, it was limited just to sexting, phone calls, and phone sex, and some plans to meet in person which they never did (which I don’t believe).

 

And when I spoke to him, he said he was the one who broke it off, because he realized he loved his wife too much, and my wife was starting to become attached/possessive.

 

I did contact his wife. But essentially she didn't care. They apparently have an open relationship.

 

Let me get this straight. The OM is in an open marriage and has permission to have sex with other women. Instead of doing that he spends his time talking dirty to your wife and they never meet. Then he dumps her because she’s getting too “attached/possessive” during the dirty talk sessions.

 

The OMW doesn’t care about her husband talking dirty to or having sex with other women. Getting caught wasn’t a concern of the OM. Why did he stop? Did the dirty talk get boring? How did the too “attached/possessive” manifest itself during the dirty talk?

 

His wife doesn’t care about sex with OW but she would care if the affair was intruding in her life with her husband. A married man that can have guilt free sex with other women doesn’t settle for dirty talk. Much more likely is that they had sex and your wife wanted more. He said that wasn’t the deal and broke it off.

 

EDIT:

 

Another thing that a few of you have said is that probably she did something in person AND that she would never admit to this. It is hard for me to ponder this possibility, but I cannot find any way around agreeing that she WOULD never tell me the truth, because she knows, after seeing how upset the mere phone calls have made me, that THAT would be the end. So naturally she would NEVER tell me.

 

She will still be very motivated not to tell you even after a divorce. That would make her look bad to her family and justify your actions. She will take it to the grave.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Buckeye2

[aliveagain]

Thanks to all who have responded. Some very very insightful comments.

 

I remain convinced that divorce is my solution. Putting aside the sexual and trust biggies aside, the very fact that she has made me question my own sanity and made me become a cynic about marriage and made me feel so naive ... While she was in the know. Call it pride or whatever, why should one stay marred to the person who has unleashed such mental rape on him? I don't see the world the same. Sure, she would read this and say how melodramatic. Oh, it was just a mistake , a flirt, a midlife crisis, or blah blah. But all that has changed my world and my self image. I had thought I was a very smart guy. Three degrees, great career , very ambitious etc. And she went for a high school dude still living in his mom's house, and working at the produce section of FoodLion grocery store. All the things I had been proud of meant nothing for her. And there is nothin wrong with that. It was authentic lust and connection between then. Of course, how silly to think that education has any bearing in it. Real feelings are unconditional. They don't require an MBA or ... Just bring your own self. That is the authenticity that is gone , the chance for it gone. Reconciliation takes effort. Authenticity doesn't but is actually the opposite of authenticity, as it requires a dismissal of a very important fact. Your spouse is a cheater.

 

Everyone knows what a mistake is, deceiving your spouse while making plans to meet up with an affair partner via teleconference or in person is not a mistake. It requires a lot of planning because two family's are being deceived. You need to plan that the children are out of the way as well as the betrayed spouses. How can it be a mistake when it happens over and over and over again? How can it be a mistake if there is more than one affair partner?

 

It takes years to get to a point of acceptance regardless if you reconcile or divorce. If you think about why it takes so many years and what it is that you are really doing in the process of getting to that place of acceptance you will understand why it takes so long. It takes years because what we are doing is programing an overwrite of what we do instinctively to protect ourselves. We are forcing ourselves to eat a sh*t sandwich that our bodies don't want to eat. We come up with all kinds of excuses for them as part of that overwriting. I wrote this on another post for someone that hasn't confronted his wife yet but still applies here. Everything we need to know is going on right in front of our eyes. It is our own illusions and hopes that blind us.

 

I was once that mouse that learned to push the blue button to get a treat.

[Miss Clavel]

There are millions of people who are not having that conversation and their spouses don't really love them.

 

Not cheating on someone is not a sign of deep love.

Nor is cheating on someone necessarily a sign that they do not love you.

 

We could just as well ask, if he didn't really love you, why does he want you to give him a second chance?"

 

And of course the answer has to be one that matters to the person involved.

I really do not think, if we look at the sheer volume and types of infidelity, at the individual stories, at the frequency in which waywards later want to return to their marriages, that we can make (or believe) in blanket statements like "If he loved you he wouldn't have cheated".

 

It sounds so simple to say that, but this site shows that it's anything but that black and white.

 

The question is "which is your story?", and "what do you want to do about it?"

 

I'm not giving my WW a second chance because she loves me, I am giving her a second chance because I love her. It starts there. But it doesn't end there. The truth of infidelity is that good people who love their spouses deeply can, and some do, cheat on those very spouses.

 

So do good people who do not really love their spouses, and cheat because they simply do not have the investment in their marriage that they pretend to have. I don't believe anyone on LS is able to make that distinction for me, for you, for OP or for anyone else but themselves.

 

I have never liked that cliche "If you really loved me you would do X for me", I find it closer to emotional blackmail than a truism by which to guide my heart. And more so when infidelity comes to mind.

 

if my ex really loved me he would not have done what he did, to me. you are as free to measure the esteem your significant other holds you in as i am.

 

and there is no other way for me to take the measure of my value to anyone then by the way they treat me.

 

no one that cares for me could lie to my face and cheat on me. he can claim he loves me till pigs fly but he's lying.

 

talks cheap.

[Noirek]

if my ex really loved me he would not have done what he did, to me. you are as free to measure the esteem your significant other holds you in as i am.

 

and there is no other way for me to take the measure of my value to anyone then by the way they treat me.

 

no one that cares for me could lie to my face and cheat on me. he can claim he loves me till pigs fly but he's lying.

 

talks cheap.

 

Perfect love maybe, and it is okay to want perfect love and live in a world where everything is simple and love is constant. Not something we lose sight of during times on our life. Or when we justify it to ourselves that our spouse doesn't know and therefore isn't harmed.

 

To the title of the question I think everyone reacts to infidelity the same way. But on what I have read most BS have higher expectations for their WS than lower. They may not trust them knowing how fallable they truly are but you reas over and over how behaviour, not even just things like flirting or opposite sex friends, that the BS didn't like are no longer tolerated. Some even go so for as to try to use the A to mold their WS into the perfect spouse. They suddenly expect perfections from the simpering WS while they hold the moral high Ground. Or some merely won't take any crap because their BS level has lowered.

 

Now, the thing about this observation is that talk is cheap. And what one preaches or pushes on an online forum isn't a good reflection of how the real world works.

[Mr. Lucky]

Now, the thing about this observation is that talk is cheap. And what one preaches or pushes on an online forum isn't a good reflection of how the real world works.

 

Disagree, I think there's some (not all but some) valuable insight here shaped by hard lessons learned in the real world. The infidelity and break-up of my marriage predates the prevalence of online forums like this. Had they been available as a resource, I could have avoided the sense of isolation and shame that often accompanies the BS role...

 

Mr. Lucky

[drifter777]

Disagree, I think there's some (not all but some) valuable insight here shaped by hard lessons learned in the real world. The infidelity and break-up of my marriage predates the prevalence of online forums like this. Had they been available as a resource, I could have avoided the sense of isolation and shame that often accompanies the BS role...

 

Mr. Lucky

This is an inarguable fact. As for not always following out own advice I think many of us have proven to be true when dealing with infidelity. When faced with the reality of our spouse cheating very few of us acted like we always imagined we would. Facing the ugly truth in real time often elicits emotional, fear-based reactions. Trying to hold things together for the sake of your sanity often makes you do things you never thought possible. Many of us posting here KNOW in our hearts what's best for us but we are living with shame and fear and unable to break out of it for a variety of reasons. That doesn't - shouldn't - keep us from advising other BS's when d-day hits or during R. Or telling your story and advocating that the BS not make the same mistakes. As you point out above, if this forum had been available to me all those years ago I know I would have made a much more informed decision regarding reconciliation. I'm not saying I wouldn't have made many of the same mistakes, but I would have had the advantage of feedback and support. Not a substitute for a counselor or even a good friend but much, much better than the nothing I was left with.