Working on marriage while having an affair?

[velvette]

Yup. But it's like... a never-ending cycle. He needs to be able to express his needs, and that it's a need of his in order to be happy and want to stay in the M. She doesn't want to do it, but knows she needs to do it in order for him to be happy and stay in the M. So, she does it, but he knows she doesn't really want to. So then even though he's getting it, he's still unhappy.

 

Just as much as feeling obligated to do something is the quickest turn-off ever, so is knowing someone is doing something they really don't want to do just to appease you (whether you articulated the need or not). We want the desire to be genuine.

 

That's his main complaint of his W, and his main compliment of me: the desire isn't/is genuine.

 

You are tormenting yourself on something that you cant possibly know the full story about and may never know.

 

 

Did it ever occur to you that he may be the reason she has no desire for him? And, by that I mean something about the way he treats her or has treated her.

 

 

For all you know he is abusing her. Do you think he would tell you that? That's just one example. There are too many to even list them that could be at the bottom of their problems.

 

 

The main problem right now is that he is not all in and she likely senses that at some level even if she hasn't figured out he is cheating.

 

 

He sounds very immature to be sharing his marital troubles with everyone around the lunch table or whatever setting you're talking about. Even that, for all you know that's his way of "broadcasting" to see who the available affair partners are who take the bait.

[RoseVille]

Well....I'd leave them to work it out or not.

 

I'm just going to be honest and say that I don't quite understand the cases where OW are deeply enmeshed in MM's marital problems, in the sense that they are fully briefed on all his intimacy issues with his wife and all the rest and almost act as pseudo-therapist. That just wasn't the dynamic in my situation, and nothing about it is romantic to me lol, and even small stuff he occasionally said that made me remember she existed sent me into a tizzy much less if I was kept fully briefed of all their problems. I mean...for me that's a HUGE turn off. I guess for some it makes them "understand" or feel bad for the MM or something, or feel closer or like they help him or I dunno what truly, but for me it would make me sick. That's how the small mentions sometimes made me feel so I couldn't possibly have managed to listen to anything further.

 

The less I knew the better. If I knew more I'd just tell him to go fix all his problems and leave me out of it as I'd be so turned off by it. Which would be my advice to you ultimately. Let his man and his wife handle their issues and leave you out of it.

 

I wasn't fully enmeshed in his M, I certainly wasn't given daily briefings. But I was aware of the issues going in, and that they still existed during. We were friends long before the A (we met 20 years ago), so it's only normal to continue sharing aspects of our lives and feelings when they come up.

 

But I also assure you there were plenty of times where I stopped him by yelping, "I don't want to know!" or "Lalalalaa!" and he'd catch himself. Sometimes, I think he thought he was still talking to "Friend Rose," and not "Romantic/OW Rose."

[RoseVille]

You are tormenting yourself on something that you cant possibly know the full story about and may never know.

 

No, not really. I'm looking for confirmation that it's not possible, that he's either not thinking clearly/deluding himself or using it as an excuse, in an effort to remind myself why I need to stay away.

 

Did it ever occur to you that he may be the reason she has no desire for him? And, by that I mean something about the way he treats her or has treated her.

 

Yup. And he's stated as much. Their financial troubles, which he takes responsibility for as the breadwinner who was laid off for a good chunk of time due to budget issues, caused a lot of problems for them. His ego was bruised, he retreated/pulled back, became depressed, became a "bad husband" (having nothing to do with any other woman, he just wasn't a good partner), and it affected her feelings about herself, and their interactions. The spiral began.

 

For all you know he is abusing her. Do you think he would tell you that? That's just one example. There are too many to even list them that could be at the bottom of their problems.

 

Laughable. That's not happening.

 

The main problem right now is that he is not all in and she likely senses that at some level even if she hasn't figured out he is cheating.

 

She doesn't just sense it, she knows it. He's told her as much, and him leaving three times during their M in the past year confirmed it. They both know their M is on shaky ground.

 

He sounds very immature to be sharing his marital troubles with everyone around the lunch table or whatever setting you're talking about. Even that, for all you know that's his way of "broadcasting" to see who the available affair partners are who take the bait.

 

You don't know the context of our work environment, but it's very similar to what I described. It's not immature, it's quite normal for people in our profession to share what's going on in our lives, and quite frankly, to laugh about it - we have to use humor to decrease the stress from otherwise super stressful situations. And I'm the only woman there in that circle of trust, so unless he's gay, he's hardly been broadcasting looking for bait for the past year.

[MissBee]

I wasn't fully enmeshed in his M, I certainly wasn't given daily briefings. But I was aware of the issues going in, and that they still existed during. We were friends long before the A (we met 20 years ago), so it's only normal to continue sharing aspects of our lives and feelings when they come up.

 

But I also assure you there were plenty of times where I stopped him by yelping, "I don't want to know!" or "Lalalalaa!" and he'd catch himself. Sometimes, I think he thought he was still talking to "Friend Rose," and not "Romantic/OW Rose."

 

Got it, makes sense if you were friends before how that would happen. It wasn't my dynamic since we weren't friends before so I guess my reaction to it is how I'd react if a boyfriend spent significant amounts of time complaining about an ex gf or something.

 

Rose, you're a smart woman, you don't need anyone else to tell you that what he's saying doesn't make sense...come on lol. You know it makes no sense too.

 

Like him, where he's deluding himself, you can also choose that route by saying you don't know if it makes sense or could posisbly be sensible lol OR you can admit it makes no sense but you still want him so are opening your mind to it, even though you want to stay away. It's like the cheeseburger diet thing I mentioned, sometimes we WANT what's best (your case, to leave MM alone) but then we partake in actions that are the opposite, and then to other people we seem a bit crazy because we're saying we want to stay away or lose weight but are eating cheese burgers or trying to ask if a MM can have an affair with us and work on his marriage lol...it's like come on....

Edited May 16, 2015 by MissBee

[minimariah]

Is it possible for a WS to truly be working on his marriage, "figuring things out," trying to make it work (for the kids), because he has a glimmer of hope that they'll find the passion and connection that's been missing for a decade...

 

...if he's still enmeshed in an affair? PA and/or EA? A PA/EA that, by his own words, gives him confidence and is good for his ego, because he feels unwanted and rejected as a man in his marriage?

 

no.

 

HOWEVER - i know of this one... interesting situation.

 

a couple, financial struggles, kids, she became less and less interested in sex due to high stress & being tired and overworked with small child + her own business = he had an A. she discovered and he decided to stay and to work on their issues. so they worked on their issues for about three years - had regular sex again, she got pregnant and gave birth with their 2nd child, they started bonding and communicating, spending time with each other and sharing their intimacy... their marriage got a lot better. the catch is -- he only ended his A, around almost 4 years from the D-day and they were working on their marriage that entire time. it has been a decade since then and they're still married. so he was working on his M and his M indeed got better but it took him a lot to actually end the A.

 

in his own words, he just couldn't stop, he was addicted to the OW but he knew he didn't want to leave his W either. so he bonded with the W again and with that -- the connection with the OW was weakened. he was falling in love with his W again and falling out of love with his OW. it was a process and it took time to break it off with the OW and by the time they finally broke up, he claims his marriage was already in a much better state.

 

the OW became the W/BS, the dynamic simply shifted.

 

so i guess, if you ask him, it is possible to work on the M while the A is still on BUT coming to an end.

Edited May 16, 2015 by minimariah

[sandylee1]

Yup. But it's like... a never-ending cycle. He needs to be able to express his needs, and that it's a need of his in order to be happy and want to stay in the M. She doesn't want to do it, but knows she needs to do it in order for him to be happy and stay in the M. So, she does it, but he knows she doesn't really want to. So then even though he's getting it, he's still unhappy.

 

Just as much as feeling obligated to do something is the quickest turn-off ever, so is knowing someone is doing something they really don't want to do just to appease you (whether you articulated the need or not). We want the desire to be genuine.

 

That's his main complaint of his W, and his main compliment of me: the desire isn't/is genuine.

 

So does he say what she wants? Her desires? Needs? Is he meeting them?

 

You mentioned her wanting him to help with the kids when he gets home, maybe if he doesn't help that puts her in a bad mood. I've been there.

 

Does she work or SAHM?

[RoseVille]

no.

 

HOWEVER - i know of this one... interesting situation.

 

a couple, financial struggles, kids, she became less and less interested in sex due to high stress & being tired and overworked with small child + her own business = he had an A. she discovered and he decided to stay and to work on their issues. so they worked on their issues for about three years - had regular sex again, she got pregnant and gave birth with their 2nd child, they started bonding and communicating, spending time with each other and sharing their intimacy... their marriage got a lot better. the catch is -- he only ended his A, around almost 4 years from the D-day and they were working on their marriage that entire time. it has been a decade since then and they're still married. so he was working on his M and his M indeed got better but it took him a lot to actually end the A.

 

in his own words, he just couldn't stop, he was addicted to the OW but he knew he didn't want to leave his W either. so he bonded with the W again and with that -- the connection with the OW was weakened. he was falling in love with his W again and falling out of love with his OW. it was a process and it took time to break it off with the OW and by the time they finally broke up, he claims his marriage was already in a much better state.

 

the OW became the W/BS, the dynamic simply shifted.

 

so i guess, if you ask him, it is possible to work on the M while the A is still on BUT coming to an end.

 

And the bolded could be the issues that a MM refers to needing work. If they can work on those, the sex will return.

 

In short, he's just buying time with an OW until the other issues resolve... and like you said, the OW and W switch places.

[RoseVille]

So does he say what she wants? Her desires? Needs? Is he meeting them?

 

You mentioned her wanting him to help with the kids when he gets home, maybe if he doesn't help that puts her in a bad mood. I've been there.

 

Does she work or SAHM?

 

She wants him to want her and only her and never even have eyes for another woman, even a celebrity. She wants him to love and be satisfied with their family, the life they've built together, to think that nothing could ever compare or be better. She wants him to never think, "What if?" about a different life. She wants him to never have thoughts of another woman, not even find another woman attractive. She claims she's never fantasized about kissing another man, not even a celebrity as part of a fantasy. Given that they've been together since they were teenagers, I don't think her desire that he be devoid of curiosity is all that reasonable.

 

On the other hand, I think he's created some of these issues with her by telling her almost every thought that's crossed his mind. He knows how she is and how she feels, and that she's somewhat reserved sexually, so to bring up threesomes or an open M as options (he's actually raised them with her), was bound to make matters worse.

 

She works part-time, from home when they're at school, so kinda double duty. There was a time about 6-7 years ago when she wasn't working, but his work hours put a strain on them just because he was gone a lot, necessary for the gig. So, at her urging, he switched jobs, and is now less satisfied with his work, but it keeps the peace at home. I think that's where the resentment started. Then that second/new gig suffered layoffs due to budget, and he's like, "Dude, I came to this gig to help my family situation, and this ain't helping, why'd I make this change!?" and her response to getting laid off wasn't supportive of the impact on him or appreciative of his efforts to make their home life better, it was one of expected/understandable panic, "What are we gonna do!?"

[velvette]

 

 

 

Yup. And he's stated as much. Their financial troubles, which he takes responsibility for as the breadwinner who was laid off for a good chunk of time due to budget issues, caused a lot of problems for them. His ego was bruised, he retreated/pulled back, became depressed, became a "bad husband" (having nothing to do with any other woman, he just wasn't a good partner), and it affected her feelings about herself, and their interactions. The spiral began.

 

 

 

Laughable. That's not happening.

 

 

.

 

 

Again, this is his version. How do you know it would be her version? And, its rather interesting that the only way he has failed as a husband is due to something like a layoff that was out of his control. See what I mean. His version is he's a great guy who was only a bad husband because of something that happened to him, not because of anything really to do with him. Somehow, I doubt would be the whole story if his wife were telling it.

 

 

And, why is it laughable that he could be abusing her? Most abuse happens in private. Anyhow its just one example. Could be anything one spouse shouldn't be doing to another. Not very often we hear examples of WS fessing up to their real flaws during an affair. In fact, I don't recall ever hearing it.

[RoseVille]

Again, this is his version. How do you know it would be her version?

 

I can't go into detail. I know it's not true.

 

And, its rather interesting that the only way he has failed as a husband is due to something like a layoff that was out of his control. See what I mean. His version is he's a great guy who was only a bad husband because of something that happened to him, not because of anything really to do with him. Somehow, I doubt would be the whole story if his wife were telling it.

 

Didn't say that, you're twisting words. The layoff started a snowball for him.

 

And, why is it laughable that he could be abusing her? Most abuse happens in private.

 

Again, not going into detail. I just know it's not happening. Stop trying to sell abuse here, please.

[jen1447]

The "anything's possible" angle is a bit superfluous ....I think we have to trust that Rose is most familar w/the situation and believe her accounts.

 

LOL - I'm starting to get tempted to play devil's advocate in all this.

[minimariah]

In short, he's just buying time with an OW until the other issues resolve... and like you said, the OW and W switch places.

 

could be but there are probably feelings involved, too.

 

in my example, he definitely loved his AP. it was hard for him to let her go but in the end... he chose his W for many other reasons. he felt like his marriage still had a chance and he decided to work on it for the kids, for their history, because he still loved his W & it worked out for him, i guess.

 

but he loved his OW. it wasn't easy to walk away from someone who truly loved him & he had deep feelings for her, too. his OW was VERY respectful, you can say she played "the game" and was very smart - she was affectionate, there for him, she got herself into his life and she won him over, never pushed him, never trashed the W or anyone else and never gave ultimatums. all of that just made him fall for her even more, you know? so while he wanted his M to work, he was still very much in love with the OW and it took him time to fall out of it.

[velvette]

I can't go into detail. I know it's not true.

 

 

 

Didn't say that, you're twisting words. The layoff started a snowball for him.

 

 

 

Again, not going into detail. I just know it's not happening. Stop trying to sell abuse here, please.

 

Wasn't trying to twist your words, but in reading back I see that was your interpretation of what he was doing rather than his. And, Im not trying to sell you abuse; it was an example.

 

 

In any case, what generally is going on when couples reach this kind of stalemate is that they are both not meeting the primary needs of their partners.

 

 

That usually happens to some degree in most relationships. In a healthy relationship people have the resources individually and together to work through it.

 

 

When they don't, everyone becomes hurt and then resentful. Resentment kills the feeling of being in love and then no one cares about anything except getting their own needs met. Nothing gets resolved.

[RoseVille]

Wasn't trying to twist your words, but in reading back I see that was your interpretation of what he was doing rather than his. And, Im not trying to sell you abuse; it was an example.

 

 

In any case, what generally is going on when couples reach this kind of stalemate is that they are both not meeting the primary needs of their partners.

 

 

That usually happens to some degree in most relationships. In a healthy relationship people have the resources individually and together to work through it.

 

 

When they don't, everyone becomes hurt and then resentful. Resentment kills the feeling of being in love and then no one cares about anything except getting their own needs met. Nothing gets resolved.

 

I think I'm lucky in that I've never really experienced resentment in a LTR, that I can remember, anyway.

 

Can resentment be overcome? Long-standing, years-long resentment?

[velvette]

I think I'm lucky in that I've never really experienced resentment in a LTR, that I can remember, anyway.

 

Can resentment be overcome? Long-standing, years-long resentment?

 

Sure if both people realize that's what is necessary and want to do it.

[CrystalCastles]

I think I'm lucky in that I've never really experienced resentment in a LTR, that I can remember, anyway.

 

Can resentment be overcome? Long-standing, years-long resentment?

 

Why do you care, Rose? His marriage is his problem, why is it your responsibility to fix it? He's a big boy, he can handle his problems all by himself.

 

I personally think you're just his fun girl on the side, and he's using you. He clearly doesn't give a f*** about you if he's trying to rebuild his marriage (not that that's my idea of rebuilding but whatever).

[sandylee1]

Rose - If he said he was done with his wife and wanted to be with you, would you be happy with that?

 

Because. ..really gently here - you seem to be placing almost all the blame at her feet, based on what he's told you. Without being in the marriage, you're getting the story from one perspective.

 

He's left her 3 times in a year , so that's bound to make her attitude towards him change. The thing is in a relationship, each party only tends to see the fault or lay blame with the other person.

 

So for example if I discuss an argument /issue I had with my H, more than likely my view would be that he was at fault and the person I was telling would only have my side and think my H was at fault too. If he was telling his friend about the same issue, I've no doubt they'd think I was at fault or to blame.

 

Most people don't tell a story that shows them in negative light and I don't think your MM is any different. Whether he told you things as a friend or as the OW, he'd still put the blame on his wife. It's just human nature.

 

It's the reason arguments happen, because everyone thinks THEY are RIGHT. If we all saw things the same there would never be arguments.

 

I have to say being laid off, doesn't make you a bad husband , that's just nonsense. Getting laid off wasn't his fault, so if he's trying to say that she blames him, I find that total bull. He's saying that to make her appear unreasonable and get more pity for himself.

[RoseVille]

Rose - If he said he was done with his wife and wanted to be with you, would you be happy with that?

 

Probably.

 

Because. ..really gently here - you seem to be placing almost all the blame at her feet, based on what he's told you. Without being in the marriage, you're getting the story from one perspective.

 

Not really. I don't really think there's blame/fault to be had (pre-A, anyway). They have been together since they were teenagers, got married young, and have grown as people, away from each other. He wants what she can't give. That's not her "fault," that's just an incompatibility.

 

I have to say being laid off, doesn't make you a bad husband , that's just nonsense. Getting laid off wasn't his fault, so if he's trying to say that she blames him, I find that total bull. He's saying that to make her appear unreasonable and get more pity for himself.

 

No, it's not getting laid off, it's the fall out. The depression, the sitting on the couch all day, the hit to his ego of failing his family, the weight gain, the griping, the bitterness, the resentment of having to carry the household, the drinking, the anger, that came with the layoff, that made him a bad husband - per him.

[RoseVille]

The "anything's possible" angle is a bit superfluous ....I think we have to trust that Rose is most familar w/the situation and believe her accounts.

 

LOL - I'm starting to get tempted to play devil's advocate in all this.

 

Dooooo iiiiitttt...

[Grapesofwrath]

Is it possible for a WS to truly be working on his marriage, "figuring things out," trying to make it work (for the kids), because he has a glimmer of hope that they'll find the passion and connection that's been missing for a decade...

 

...if he's still enmeshed in an affair? PA and/or EA? A PA/EA that, by his own words, gives him confidence and is good for his ego, because he feels unwanted and rejected as a man in his marriage?

 

To me, this depends on what he means by "figuring things out." If he means conducting a fearless investigation into his married and why he strayed...including total disclosure to his wife...then, no. If he means figuring out how to make it tolerable to stay married, then, yes. And of course, all the possible permutations in between.

 

I am as guilty of this as anyone...sometimes in the moment of these conversations, I don't ask the right question. I listen, take it in, and then respond. It's only in retrospect that I think to ask things like, "please define 'figuring things out.'" or "what would "figured out things" look like in your view?"

[TunaCat]

Is it possible for a WS to truly be working on his marriage, "figuring things out," trying to make it work (for the kids), because he has a glimmer of hope that they'll find the passion and connection that's been missing for a decade...

 

...if he's still enmeshed in an affair? PA and/or EA? A PA/EA that, by his own words, gives him confidence and is good for his ego, because he feels unwanted and rejected as a man in his marriage?

 

Absolutely not. If he truly wants to work on his marriage, the OW would be out of sight & mind. He would work to show his wife that she is one of the most important people in his life and he would be working to regain her trust.

 

If he's still emmeshed in the affair, then he's wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

 

If this were my husband, I'd be starting the divorce proceedings myself because he would be showing me that he's not committed to working on the marriage.

[truncated]

I can't go into details about why, as they will identify us more than I already have, but I know he's being honest with me. This was going on for a long time before even the EA part, and he told many people about it.

 

I use a lot of analogies, so imagine a firehouse, where you confide in your "family" there who you spend 3 days on with, about what's going on in your personal life, and playful ribbing/teasing happens from those you're closer to as a result. Those in our "circle of trust" have known about this for a while. It's been talked about for a long time around the veritable dinner table. He's been in a not-so-great-place in his M for a long time.

 

He went back each time he left because of his kids. They are young, and he cannot stand to be away from them anymore than he already is, and would be devastated financially if he left. He also sees a "glimmer of hope" that they could make it work.

 

 

Sorry, but this mm is full of what comes out of the back and of a cow.

 

He is so desperate to be with his kids, and he can't stand to be away from them, that he would put that at risk?

 

As for the guy at the firehouse telling his friends what goes on at home...I ahve seen guys comlain ad nauseum about their wives and how there is never any affection, how tehir wife is horrible and how she is even rude to him a round others, but guess what? No one ever sees it.

 

I've been in a workplace that is very male oriented, and was there long enogh that I was considered a defacto 'one of the boys'. These guys would complain about thier wives endlessly to one another, yet if it was just one on one with me and I aksed them if their wife was really that bad, the answer was always, "no, she's a pretty great lady", followed by a description of the many things she did that showed it, often small things that showed she cared.

 

I'm always amazed at how the ow in an affair feels that she is in any place to judge the wife or marriage based upon the words of a man who has a vested interest in keeping the affair going. after all, if the ow feels empathy and sadness for the wife at home who is is running around on, the risk of the ow ending the affair increases.

[RoseVille]

Absolutely not. If he truly wants to work on his marriage, the OW would be out of sight & mind. He would work to show his wife that she is one of the most important people in his life and he would be working to regain her trust.

 

If he's still emmeshed in the affair, then he's wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

 

If this were my husband, I'd be starting the divorce proceedings myself because he would be showing me that he's not committed to working on the marriage.

 

What about in a situation where the W is unaware of the A?

[RoseVille]

I am as guilty of this as anyone...sometimes in the moment of these conversations, I don't ask the right question. I listen, take it in, and then respond. It's only in retrospect that I think to ask things like, "please define 'figuring things out.'" or "what would "figured out things" look like in your view?"

 

 

I'm guilty of not asking any questions in the first place.

[TunaCat]

What about in a situation where the W is unaware of the A?

 

If the husband truly wanted to make his marriage work and the wife honestly didn't know he was having an affair, his first order of business would be to drop the OW completely. No contact with his AP at all.

 

If the marriage hadn't been good for awhile, I'd hope the married couple would start both marriage counseling and individual counseling.

 

The man needs to open up to his wife and communicate about the problems in the marriage. He cannot do that with a clear conscience if the AP is still in his life in ANY way.