Working on marriage while having an affair?

[lana-banana]

I get a sense the BW wouldn't be mortified by the personal details Rose is posting here because she probably wouldn't recognize them. All we're seeing is the cartoonishly lopsided picture MM has provided; there's no way to know which elements are true, which are half-true, and which are outright falsehoods.

 

Rose, you're not an idiot, so it's hard to understand why you're so defensive here (while simultaneously insisting that it's not about you and you don't really care). You must know that MM is only one person who can present only one aspect of his story, and he has a vested interest in making you believe it's as dreadful as possible. Meanwhile you're eating it all up, critical thinking be damned. It's like you're telling us you know the president of the United States sacrifices Christian babies at night and it has to be true because Fox News told you so.

 

A marriage takes two, and try as you might you have no place in it. You have no idea what happens between them, how they talk to each other, what they like to eat for dinner, the weird private jokes that any couple has after a decade-plus together, what they mumble about in bed before they start a sleepy Sunday morning. All you have is a very biased version of events from someone who treats you like a plaything and wants to keep you at his beck and call. You're here obsessively posting about how great he is and how the rest of us just don't understand so it's safe to say his manipulation is working. The question is why you're content to be manipulated.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I just wanted to say, to those saying Rose discussing details of the marriage is disrespectful and unhealthy, I don't disagree, however, the affair itself is disrespectful and unhealthy anything else is just gravy.

 

These boards are anonymous and if Rose is trying to gain an understanding of MMs thoughts, she isn't doing anything that the majority of OW haven't done. Of course the BS would be mortified that her sex life is being discussed, but she'd be mortified her H is having an affair. Remember MM usually has to tell OW things aren't great in the sack, otherwise why seek out sex elsewhere.

 

If my H was having an affair, of course I wouldn't be surprised he'd discuss our sex life with the OW. It's called justification.

 

Please note - I say what I have being objective. I'm not and have never been the OW.

 

 

My point was....if pointing to the fact the MM said most/all of this prior to the affair makes it the "truth"....it just doesn't. It makes it less truthful...and more just ewwww....crude....tactless...unattractive.....did I mention ewwww.

 

Wouldn't most people avoid "TMI Tom...from accounting"? Or duck from "Blow Job Bob"? Get up from the table feigning fullness when "Wife ruined the moment Will" sits down?

 

How many people would encourage these types of work conversations? More importantly....why? What is the listener getting from it? What does it say about the listener? What is it feeding to the listener?

[GirlStillStrong]

Rose, trying to figure out crazy will just make you crazy.

 

Any guy who has an affair is unstable and unhealthy. If you can't be honest and true in your primary relationships, you can't be honest and true anywhere.

And you already know the answer to your original question; you don't need strangers to affirm it.

[RoseVille]

Rose, I honestly don't feel anyone is trying to kick you. I and others are trying to get you to see the situation for what it is.

Because you are so in love with the MM, you're so close to the screen and can't see the whole picture.

 

I really do get that your hurting right now and I've tried to be careful with my words, because I don't want to hurt you further.

 

If you've ever watched the quiz show 'who wants to be a millionaire,' There's a lifeline called 'ask the audience '. You've done just that and most of us have told you, 1) a WS can't work on their marriage while in an affair and 2) that you can't believe he's telling you the truth about his wife/marriage.

The majority are almost always right. Do you think we're all wrong about the second point on this occasion?

 

Again, I'm not intending you any distress, disrespect or trying to kick you while you're down.

 

Thanks, sandy. I appreciate your advice, I really do.

 

I'm not here to be coddled, but really, it's all about delivery. Yours is totally fine. I'm surprised some folks here haven't figured that out yet. You might not think I was being poked, but some posts were deleted.

[RoseVille]

And yes, I'm hurting. He's making good on his "working on marriage" thing. There has been no physical contact or texts for two weeks now. We've only seen each other, out of necessity, at work. At it's been hard.

[jen1447]

A marriage takes two, and try as you might you have no place in it. You have no idea what happens between them, how they talk to each other, what they like to eat for dinner, the weird private jokes that any couple has after a decade-plus together, what they mumble about in bed before they start a sleepy Sunday morning. All you have is a very biased version of events from someone who treats you like a plaything and wants to keep you at his beck and call. You're here obsessively posting about how great he is and how the rest of us just don't understand so it's safe to say his manipulation is working. The question is why you're content to be manipulated.

 

A thorough read of the thread will show she's actually looking to invalidate the MM in the context of the A and find the resolve to stay apart. That she still finds appeal in him is just honesty, not really an agenda.

 

An example - It's like when women find a guy they'd like to have an affair with and tell him how bad the husband is, that he abuses her, is mean, she's too afraid to leave him. She starts confiding in the guy as a friend first, telling him intimate details of her relationship. How unhappy she is, no affection from her husband etc . She's saying this to gain sympathy, so that once in the affair she doesn't get pressurised to leave. As to do so would be 'dangerous', the controlling H would get violent, that he'd even kill her. This keeps the the OM quietly in the affair or makes him so mad he seeks out the husband and kills him in order to protect her and be the KISA. There have been so many of these stories and I've never heard of a case where the alleged abuse was true. It's manipulation to get what the person wants.

I think there's a fair amount of variability with this tho. I mean sure, some philanderers put on total BS shows and are very adept at manipulation, but many others are genuinely conflicted and rationalize a lot of things. People are often quick to condemn other people who get up to this stuff as 'pure evil' and all that, but how many people in the world really are? Certainly not as many people as are having affairs out there, so that implies that many of those people are fundamentally decent (not murderers, rapists, etc.) who are just failing miserably on an ethics gt check. Throw in the endorphin rush of sex and intimacy (and the illicitness f it) and the stopping can be something akin to a meth addict trying to get clean. Usually this stuff exists in shades of grey.

 

Slightly OT but somewhat informative - my BF investigates infidelity on a fairly regular basis and he says you'd be surprised how stereotypically 'normal' the players often are - churchgoers, community leaders, other outwardly ethical pioneers or champions of decency. You'd also be surprised how widespread cheating is and to what extent large percentages of people cheat.

 

btw sandy, I for one appreciate your dignified tone. I'm seeing a lot of calling out of Rose here as being defensive, but there were a lot of capitals shouted at her and a fair amount of histrionics on the part of those who spoke against. People can't have it both ways. If you're aggressive and you shout, expect to get it back.

 

It's also easy to find fault with neatly compartmentalized scenarios that appear to play out in real time on a message board over a half-hour or so, but RL is rarely so clear. The office gossip doesn't wear an ID card for example, they get exposed as that person over time. Likewise potential cheaters aren't automatically street-urchin shady people who can be spotted easily at a glance. That's why it's generally a bad idea to be judgmental - you never really know the full story or exactly what's going on, at least not right off the bat.

 

edit - I see like Rose said some things have changed in this thread. Apologies if my references seem confusing because of it.

Edited May 17, 2015 by jen1447

[truncated]

No, he hasn't. He's never really intimated that he believed things could be okay in his M... Rather, it was more about him finding a place where he could accept the state of his M. Or maybe that's the same thing?

 

When the A started, and largely pre-A, he'd say they were "working on it." He started the affair when they were working on it. That was my primary question in starting this thread; how could he be working on it, and actively seeking a connection/sex outside his M, at the same time? Not even so much starting to work on it during the A, but working on it and THEN starting an A.

 

Later, when he ended the A, he said he had to end it with me so that he could "really work on it." He said that he'd been unable to work on it during the A, because his emotional attachment to me was making it difficult for him to even want to work on it at home/with his W, but that he had to make it work.

 

The more you write about him, the more it sounds like the problem really isn't his marriage as much as it is his really odd way of looking at things, and he is very self centered. I say that in the sense that he sees himself and his wants/needs as being what matters, and that he has some serious issues with empathy.

 

It sounds like he has a lot of growing up to do, and really, if he is in the place where you indicate he is psychologically, I don't see how he can work on his marriage, or, for that matter, really give anyone else what they need emotionally, except of a very shallow level.

Edited May 17, 2015 by truncated

[gettingstronger]

No, you can not work on your marriage while in an affair. You also can not give your AP what they need if you're married. The only "winners" in affairs are those that are ok with using people and being dishonest.

[RoseVille]

Truncated: He is indeed very "his needs" focused. I don't know if he's just purely selfish or he's selfish in the way it's been so long since he's had them met that he just has a "**** it, I'm just gonna get what I need!" attitude. Either way, he's selfish... but any MP in an A is.

[jen1447]

Ok, so, how could Rose's MM possibly be working on his marriage while having an affair? Let's have a look at at that.

 

Seems to me there are some basics involved with any relationship, marriage or not. No doubt there are a variety of them, but let's consider emotional intimacy and physical intimacy.

 

Emotional intimacy - try as I might, I can't think of a way that deceiving your spouse and sharing this type of intimacy with an OW could help the BS, except for the unlikely possibility that the OW was actively trying to speak up in the interest of the BS. Which seems really unlikely. Not doing character assassination (which I believe is where you're at Rose) is one thing, but campaigning for her is another. I guess another possibility is just that spending time with the OW would calm MM's emotions and/or make him more amenable to his wife's needs in general (happiness breeds happiness), but ....I don't really buy it. I think in this context, it's a copout.

 

Physical intimacy - this is the one that has some potential imo, albeit in a weird way and in a way that'll no doubt offend some people. Open relationships can actually foster a closer bond between the two primary partners. I know your case isn't open, but I think it illustrates the point that sexual fidelity isn't an absolute. I could see a scenario where sexual satisfaction and the endorphin rush we get from it could cause the MM to be more considerate - sexually and otherwise - to the BS and treat her better in general, and that MM might be seeking that. This begs the question of whether the BS would want that kind of "good treatment" if she knew the cost, but we're looking at MM's beliefs and motivations here, not OW's fallout. So I think it's possible, if misguided, that he could think extramarital sex would have a beneficial effect.

 

I think we should also keep in mind that he may view all this - affair and marriage concurrently - as simply his own desperate attempt to keep his head above water. As in, he can't live w/out you or his wife and family and doesn't really know what to do, so he maintains the status quo instead.

 

I think the greater likelihood is that it's primarily a rationalization on his part, but if that's the case, it's better than outright manipulation, though not as good obvs as the owning/manning up he should really do.

 

Hope this is helpful.

[Popsicle]

No, I don't think it's possible to work on your M while having an A.

 

My guess is that when most quit their A and say they want to work on their marriage, both spouses end up not doing anything different in their M. Old habits die hard, for real. But they have to at least feel like they are doing the right thing.

[waterwoman]

To answer the original question - nope, it isn't going to work. REALLY fixing a marriage takes effort and emotional hard graft. Nothing left for anyone else.

[gettingstronger]

No, I don't think it's possible to work on your M while having an A.

 

My guess is that when most quit their A and say they want to work on their marriage, both spouses end up not doing anything different in their M. Old habits die hard, for real. But they have to at least feel like they are doing the right thing.

 

 

That has not been my experience- at all-

[truncated]

Ok, so, how could Rose's MM possibly be working on his marriage while having an affair? Let's have a look at at that.

 

Seems to me there are some basics involved with any relationship, marriage or not. No doubt there are a variety of them, but let's consider emotional intimacy and physical intimacy.

 

Emotional intimacy - try as I might, I can't think of a way that deceiving your spouse and sharing this type of intimacy with an OW could help the BS, except for the unlikely possibility that the OW was actively trying to speak up in the interest of the BS. Which seems really unlikely. Not doing character assassination (which I believe is where you're at Rose) is one thing, but campaigning for her is another. I guess another possibility is just that spending time with the OW would calm MM's emotions and/or make him more amenable to his wife's needs in general (happiness breeds happiness), but ....I don't really buy it. I think in this context, it's a copout.

 

Physical intimacy - this is the one that has some potential imo, albeit in a weird way and in a way that'll no doubt offend some people. Open relationships can actually foster a closer bond between the two primary partners. I know your case isn't open, but I think it illustrates the point that sexual fidelity isn't an absolute. I could see a scenario where sexual satisfaction and the endorphin rush we get from it could cause the MM to be more considerate - sexually and otherwise - to the BS and treat her better in general, and that MM might be seeking that. This begs the question of whether the BS would want that kind of "good treatment" if she knew the cost, but we're looking at MM's beliefs and motivations here, not OW's fallout. So I think it's possible, if misguided, that he could think extramarital sex would have a beneficial effect.

 

I think we should also keep in mind that he may view all this - affair and marriage concurrently - as simply his own desperate attempt to keep his head above water. As in, he can't live w/out you or his wife and family and doesn't really know what to do, so he maintains the status quo instead.

 

I think the greater likelihood is that it's primarily a rationalization on his part, but if that's the case, it's better than outright manipulation, though not as good obvs as the owning/manning up he should really do.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

 

Your post does make sense in that it does explain the thought process of a mm who is in that situation.

 

The thing is that it's a very immature way of thinking.

 

It it were an open marriage where all three parties knew what was going on and had a say in the rule and boundaries they were all willing to accept, it would be one thing, but he hasn't done that. He wants to take the easy way out, and that means keeping his wife in the dark about the affair, and keeping the ow in the dark about certain aspects of his marriage.

[jen1447]

^ I agree. (10)

[Southern Sun]

She wants him to want her and only her and never even have eyes for another woman, even a celebrity. She wants him to love and be satisfied with their family, the life they've built together, to think that nothing could ever compare or be better. She wants him to never think, "What if?" about a different life. She wants him to never have thoughts of another woman, not even find another woman attractive. She claims she's never fantasized about kissing another man, not even a celebrity as part of a fantasy. Given that they've been together since they were teenagers, I don't think her desire that he be devoid of curiosity is all that reasonable.

 

On the other hand, I think he's created some of these issues with her by telling her almost every thought that's crossed his mind. He knows how she is and how she feels, and that she's somewhat reserved sexually, so to bring up threesomes or an open M as options (he's actually raised them with her), was bound to make matters worse.

 

Hi Rose - this post of yours really stood out to me as being somewhat revealing as to the kind of person your MM is. I know that you've been long-time friends, and perhaps you are okay with some of the activities you've mentioned in this, but I just thought it was worth pointing out.

 

HE has brought up to his WIFE, who I assume he committed to with traditional marriage vows (again, making assumptions here), having threesomes and opening the M. This is naturally going to make her resentful, uncomfortable, and insecure. It is naturally going to damage the marriage. Going back to my chicken and egg analogy...which came first? I don't know, but all you are getting are his perceptions. I'm just betting though, that when he proposed, based upon her view of "making love" and the other things you've shared, she did not anticipate threesomes and open marriages as a part of their life together. I would imagine this has thrown her for a loop and is very hurtful. It's a bait and switch.

 

The fact that he is spending any time harping on how he can't even have a celebrity crush...he is having a pity party. He is whining like a little spoiled child. He is all me, me, me right now. His role as a husband has officially left the building. He's forgotten what he signed up for. I'm not sure if he'll be able to right his ship. It will require remembering the true definition of marriage, which does include self-sacrifice. It can be quite a wonderful thing, but his perspective has really gotten screwed up somewhere along the way. Maybe he started out correctly but something flipped to a very "I deserve" mentality. The fact is, we can't always have it all! He wants to fxxk sometimes, I get it. But if he wants that and his wife doesn't, well, he might have to sacrifice. And if he insists on having that, then he might have to give up his kids 50% of the time. See? As adults, we have to make grown up choices. I don't know. His stomping around and fussing is kind of getting to me. I saw it with my xMM a little toooo much.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Southern Sun

[RoseVille]

Southern Sun, yes, you're right about all of that. I TOTALLY get her feelings and why things have broken down further since he made those requests and other admissions about what he wants and that he's tempted by other women since they're missing in his M.

 

When he ended it, he said that his "work on the marriage" would involve "figuring things out," such as whether he can "accept things the way they are" (sacrifice that want/need to stay married/with a family). I think he necessarily had to end it with me to know if he could live without the sex he enjoys; he has to not have it to see if he can live without it.

[purplesorrow]

No, I don't think it's possible to work on your M while having an A.

 

My guess is that when most quit their A and say they want to work on their marriage, both spouses end up not doing anything different in their M. Old habits die hard, for real. But they have to at least feel like they are doing the right thing.

 

Should one guess the same thing about an AP? Never changes? Always just an ap?

[daisygirl19]

No, I don't think it's possible. In order for it to work, both parties have to be all in and 100% committed to trying to better the marriage. I don't see how keeping secrets and continuing an affair in the process makes it possible.

 

My MM did "try" MC, but not until year a half after he suggested it. She refused to believe their issues were "big enough" and was blindsided when he asked for a divorce. At that point, she begged for MC, and they went for a few months, but it was a complete joke. He agreed to it, and his reasoning was to try to alleviate her pain so she didn't feel so blindsided and show his kids that they both tried. His heart was never in it from the start. It was a complete waste of time and energy. His STBXW though, feels like they gave it a shot and she claims that it gave her peace to accept the marriage was over.

[m4p]

Should one guess the same thing about an AP? Never changes? Always just an ap?

 

If the AP is single, I think this is a better situation for the AP than the WS. WS will go back to the routines of marriage. Old habits indeed die hard. Especially when you've been living this way for the past decade and more. They might never cheat again, but they might not be truly happy too without solving the root of the problem. i guess keyword is identifying the root of the problem in the marriage? Is the attraction still there? That's another point to consider. I don't claim to know this to be accurate though, just deducing.

 

WS that cheated and got caught had effectively set in motion a series of event that will affect the BS, children, family, friends, money, marriage....... you get the gist.

 

On the other hand, single AP gets a fresh start after all the pain and hooha. Not that it is easy too. As painful as it is for all parties involved, there always will be one that has more to lose...

[minimariah]

It was a complete waste of time and energy. His STBXW though, feels like they gave it a shot and she claims that it gave her peace to accept the marriage was over.

 

if this is true -- the MC wasn't a waste of time & money, at all.

 

sometimes, a MC point isn't to fix the marriage and bring the couple back together -- sometimes the point is for the couple to understand that the separation is better than staying together.

 

sometimes, the MC can help with an easier exit - as simple as that. it is almost never a waste of time.

[Southern Sun]

Southern Sun, yes, you're right about all of that. I TOTALLY get her feelings and why things have broken down further since he made those requests and other admissions about what he wants and that he's tempted by other women since they're missing in his M.

 

When he ended it, he said that his "work on the marriage" would involve "figuring things out," such as whether he can "accept things the way they are" (sacrifice that want/need to stay married/with a family). I think he necessarily had to end it with me to know if he could live without the sex he enjoys; he has to not have it to see if he can live without it.

 

And thus illustrates another huge problem with affairs (at least for the married folks)...we aren't supposed to compare. If he hadn't stuck his dongle in other places then he wouldn't know what he was missing. He wouldn't be thinking about what he was "forced to live without." He wouldn't have a side by side compare and contrast on his mind. Speaking to myself here as much as anyone. Off the soapbox now

[Got it]

Roseville - okay I will tell you as someone that was married and had an affair with a married person. We talk. As our relationship grew we talked about different areas of our lives including sex life, or lack there of. Obviously not everyone does but I figured once we decided to share our organs we are going to share all other areas as well.

 

So I didn't see it as any more disrespectful than the initial act. And he may not either. And, for myself, my loyalty was with my MM, not my husband. Now I showed that by separating weeks later.

 

What I don't think one can do, and what he is trying to do, is straddle the fence and say he is working on the marriage. He can't. To work on the marriage he has to have both feet fully planted in it and to give it a fighting chance, be transparent and honest. And he is most definitely not doing that.

 

So he may THINK he is, but I am sure if he leveled with a therapist they would set him straight.

 

My advice, let him work on his marriage. If you want him, and as not the MM, then let him go do that and shut down all communication. Let him see what it feels like to be fully back in the marriage without the soft escape of an OW. The reality and the fantasy are going to be totally different. He shouldn't get to put you both on a shelf and decide what to do. I think take the idea and run with it at 110% percent.

 

I know that is hard and it makes your skin itch for contact but, trust me, the best thing to get what you think you ultimately want, is to follow his plan. What most likely happens, he does nothing and he comes back offering you the same arrangement. Do you want that?

 

I had a friend who had a MM who sounded similar. A lot of waffling, back and forth, "doing the right thing" bs that he told himself, and just ebbed and flowed. He kept jerking her around playing this game so he could seem like a good guy. Okay. Maybe he was conflicted but at some point you need to get on one side of the fence or the other.

 

So the best gift you can give him is knocking him off the fence and not allowing him to straddle it.

[RoseVille]

Great advice, Got it.

 

He's on shift today, and as we passed each other around the water cooler acted oddly happy/chipper. I wanted to knock his Dunkin Donuts coffee right out of his hand as he brought it to his lips.

[lookingforclosure]

I don't believe you can truly work on your marriage and have contact with AP, xAP, or whatever. You have to focus 100% on your BS and family and like others have said, there isn't time for anything else. And if you truly want your marriage to have a fighting chance, you don't "make" time for anything else.

I think men who waffle or straddle the fence so to speak are wanting the woman to make the decision for them...