To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Hi everyone,

 

I'll be obliged to fill all compulsory details later (to establish the context : was reading this and two other forums for a week, 40 yo male) but right now I do need some guidance, and this is a matter of urgency to me.

 

I do believe that my wife of 15 years had developed an emotional and likely a romantic connection with another man. I acknowledge that I may have been blindsided and in reality it may be a full grown affair. My intuition and knowledge of her character tell me that this had not reached that point yet. But it is going there and the outlook is not great.

 

My dilemma is that I have no actual proof, only the circumstantial evidence (changes in behaviour etc). To complicate the situation I have to go on a business trip soon. If nothing has happened yet, it may very well happen while I'm away. So my options are :

 

Confront - or I'd say have a civil conversation - now. It may stop the affair, but with no proof she can easily deny any wrongdoing and take everything underground. Even if she (with our without confession) stops the affair I (and this is critical for me) I'll live the rest of my life not knowing what would have happened if I hadn't stopped it.

 

Wait and gather proof - I may eventually get it (assuming it's ongoing or will progress to the worst possible outcome) but I will have to live the rest of my life knowing I basically enabled the affair.

 

Unfortunately I have been considering this for too long and need to make a decision asap.

 

Your timely help and wisdom will be wholeheartedly appreciated.

[fellini]

Put an end to it. You are right, you do not want to go through life thinking you enabled it.

 

If she is moving forward, she is acting on her own emotions. Probably just telling her to stop, she won't.

 

But you can be clear to her (if in fact you mean this): if she has an affair, you will divorce her imediateLy. No if ands or buts.

 

You can tell her this is her wake up call.

 

There is little else you can do other than hand her a book like Shirley Glass " not just friends" and ask her to start reading it before she makes a fool of herself.

 

If she is too far gone, she is too far gone.

 

Good luck.

[Mr Carson]

Or hire a PI while you're out of town, if you can afford one. Her guard will be down when you're gone?

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger,

 

If you confront her, you know since you have no actual proof she is going to deny it completely and make you out to be crazy. Right out of vthe cheaters handbook 101. If you go this route you have to be clear in your mind that you will NOT backtrack on what you tell her. Then you sit her down and tell her why you suspect her, and that while you cannot control her that you refuse to live in a marriage with more tha n two peolple in it. You tell her calmly thatshe will have this one chance to come clean with you and that if she does you will not take any immediate drastic action regarding divorce. But if she lies any more you will divorce her immediately. If you take this route you have to mean what you say. DO NOT draw lines that you allow her to cross.

Your other option would be to do the following

(1) put a VAR in her car and oin your home somewhere

(2) put a GPS on her car

(3)change your itinerary if possible without telling her.

(4) if you can afford it, the PI is the way to go.

I am guessing that one of the red flags she has given you is locking and living with her phone next to her so you cannot get to it. You should know the other red flags. If not just google it.

The problem with this approach is it may take time to catch her and you are going to kick yourself in the ass if you were right and let it happen whle you are playing CIA.

The important thing for YOU to detemine is what you are going to do if you are correct. The minute you tell her how much you love her and want to reconcile is when you lose all the power and control because she cheated and you have right away accepted it. She owns that 100% regardless of what else is going on.

You may not think so but you are one step ahead of the game because you at least have decided not to pt your head in the sand and hope you are wrong.

You also need to understand you are not in a court of law, You do NOT have to prove anything to anyone but yourself. You decide if what she is doing is bad enough to end the relationship, and you set the boundaries for reconciliation if it comes to that. Just understand that it is highly unlikely you will get the entire truth even if you catch her.

Now if it were me, and you are concerned enough to find this forum, I would do the VAR, GPS, AND hire the PI if you can afford it.

[spanz1]

if you can C block the affair now, even thought you have no concrete proof, I would do it. it is much easier to reconcile from an EA only.

 

 

If you can cancel the business trip you would have more time to keylog her computer and phone, do some VAR stuff, GPS her car, try to have SOMETHING to hang your hat on.

 

 

When you do confront her now, she will just say the standard "you are crazy, we are just good friends....." and be gaslighted. AND the affair might just continue in a more underground way that you will never find out about. so getting a little proof will help you immensely.

Edited May 20, 2015 by spanz1

[fellini]

When you do confront her now, she will just say the standard "you are crazy, we are just good friends....." and be gaslighted. AND the affair might just continue in a more underground way that you will never find out about. so getting a little proof will help you immensely.

 

Except the difference will be that he has made it clear that he sees her moving into an unacceptable situation, and in the end, if she does, she already knows he knows. It's hard to gaslight someone who already believes the opposite. Easier to gaslight when someone want NOT to believe it's possible.

 

Either way, he cannot hold her hand forever. By addressing her in a clear, no nonsense, no room for interpretation manner, he puts the ball in her court. She has to either see this as her dday before she really got things rolling, or go hide it better and take her chances knowing he is already on to her.

 

If even after that, she continues, well, then she knows what's coming. Not sure OP can do much more than chain her to the bathroom sink.

[zinger]

I'll start by thanking everyone who has responded so far. I have not yet decided on the option in going to choose (please don't take it as a criticism, I've got a number of great suggestions already, but obviously that is mine decision to live with).

 

Fellini, I like the idea of having a talk outlining the consequences of infidelity; I'm just toying with idea of letting her know that I do not accept infidelity whithout actually accusing her - just lead a routine discussion to the point when I can express this.

 

Frisky, you agree spot on with your "CIA" scenario, this is (under the circumstances) is my worst nightmare. And you made a lot of other valid points.

 

Span, what is 'C block"?

 

 

In general: if I don't get clarity before I leave I'll leave no stones unturned and will get to the bottom - VAR, GPS, PI - whatever it takes. And she knows (and will be reminded again) that I do not make empty threats, it's just not me. She knows that.

 

All, even while I have not quoted all the good points and responded to all of them, thanks all your suggestions are dully noted. And - the extra benefit is I feel slightly better know as I managed to talk about all of this to someone.

 

Thanks

 

P.S. Apologies for spelling and grammar, I'm using my phone and honestly not in the best state of mind at the moment.

[fellini]

Fellini, I like the idea of having a talk outlining the consequences of infidelity; I'm just toying with idea of letting her know that I do not accept infidelity whithout actually accusing her - just lead a routine discussion to the point when I can express this.

 

I wouldn't accuse her either unless I had a serious issue with a boundary crossing that is irrefutable. No you are right. If I had the information prior to my WW stepping out, something concrete, but not definitive, I would have put it forward as, Im not accusing you of anything, but Im not going to sit back and tell you Im fine with some things I have seen in your behaviour. These are the kinds of behaviours that can get out of hand without you knowing it, so Im telling you now, what is bothering me, and what I would do if things went too far.

 

i.e. talk to her as a friend would tell her if she thought she saw her heading down a road that had car wreck written all over it. That's what friends are for, that is, in fact, what my WW's colleague tried to do, but didn't take seriously enough her role in stopping her from disaster.

[zinger]

Except the difference will be that he has made it clear that he sees her moving into an unacceptable situation, and in the end, if she does, she already knows he knows. It's hard to gaslight someone who already believes the opposite. Easier to gaslight when someone want NOT to believe it's possible.

 

That is the definition I'm looking for. Need to think on how to structure the discussion to get the point across without directly accusing her. The objective is to avoid the "cheaters handbook, are you crazy" scenario which will or may curve her to take it underground. Kind of indirect influence of it makes any sense.

Edited May 20, 2015 by zinger
Spelling

[fellini]

That is the definition I'm looking for. Need to think on how to structure the discussion to get the point across without directly according her. The objective is to avoid the "cheaters handbook, are you crazy" scenario which will or may curve her to take it underground. Kind of indirect influence of it makes any sense.

 

Even if a spouse takes it "underground" or off the radar.

 

They still need the physical time and space to hook up. You cannot have an affair completely underground. In the end, you have to do things somewhere, you need communication, and you need to do this under the suspicious eye of a spouse who isn't living in la la land thinking his wife is too good to cheat.

 

It has to be a lot harder to do this regardless. My wife is a real luddite. I was able to simply turn on GPS and track her movements without her aware of when I was doing so. Once I could see she was living a normal life, I stopped monitoring.

Edited May 20, 2015 by fellini

[zinger]

. My wife is a real luddite. I was able to simply turn on GPS and track her movements without her aware of when I was doing so. Once I could see she was living a normal life, I stopped monitoring.

 

Off topic, but does this mean that you took her back?

 

If the outcome is that I'm right (hanging to a 5-10% probability I'm paranoid and nothing is going on) - I'll find the truth one way or another.

 

I think I'm getting the idea on what and how do I need to say before I can leave with (at least) clear conciousness I've done everything I can and not as affair enabling cuckold.

[JS84]

Never confront without proof. Not only will she deny whatever you can't prove, all you're doing is telling her you're on to her and she needs to be more careful to keep her affair underground.

[gettingstronger]

I believe in good honest conversation- maybe something like, I am not feeling great about going out of town, I have noticed XYZ about our relationship lately and I am worried about it, what do you think about XYZ-

 

In retrospect, I do wish I had dug a bit deeper on little things that I wrote off as work related stress- I would not have accused him because that puts people on the defensive, but I do wish I had said- you know, I am concerned about.....

[whichwayisup]

Get some actual proof/evidence to show her when she lies/denies it and turns it around on you and tells you're over reacting and the guy is "just" a friend and you have nothing to worry about.

 

If she is up to no good and close to having an A or is having one, you tell her she has a choice to make. Either you and the marriage or that other guy. She cannot have both and make it clear to her that you will not put up with betrayal and lies, sneaking around and her making a fool of you.

 

Also, find out who this guy is, if he's married or not. Is he a co worker? A friend of yours? Someone she happened to meet somewhere without your knowledge? Someone from her past?

 

You could hire a PI.

[lolablue17]

i would talk to her first, to stop everything, but don't show your cards. Tell her you know some things that happened and ask her if she wants to come clean... If she denies, continue to play like you know that there is something.

 

Either way, you have to put her under surveillance when you leave. Var, logger, PI... everything.

 

If i were you I'd lose some money, postpone my business trip, tell her i'm going to the trip and make the surveillance myself, so i could stop things before they actually occur.

[Morro72]

Why not invite your wife to accompany you on the trip? Maybe stretch it out a day so you can do something fun? Regardless of her response you'll probably learn something that you wouldn't have learned otherwise.

[Furious]

Hi everyone,

 

I'll be obliged to fill all compulsory details later (to establish the context : was reading this and two other forums for a week, 40 yo male) but right now I do need some guidance, and this is a matter of urgency to me.

 

I do believe that my wife of 15 years had developed an emotional and likely a romantic connection with another man. I acknowledge that I may have been blindsided and in reality it may be a full grown affair. My intuition and knowledge of her character tell me that this had not reached that point yet. But it is going there and the outlook is not great.

 

My dilemma is that I have no actual proof, only the circumstantial evidence (changes in behaviour etc). To complicate the situation I have to go on a business trip soon. If nothing has happened yet, it may very well happen while I'm away. So my options are :

 

Confront - or I'd say have a civil conversation - now. It may stop the affair, but with no proof she can easily deny any wrongdoing and take everything underground. Even if she (with our without confession) stops the affair I (and this is critical for me) I'll live the rest of my life not knowing what would have happened if I hadn't stopped it.

 

Wait and gather proof - I may eventually get it (assuming it's ongoing or will progress to the worst possible outcome) but I will have to live the rest of my life knowing I basically enabled the affair.

 

Unfortunately I have been considering this for too long and need to make a decision asap.

 

Your timely help and wisdom will be wholeheartedly appreciated.

 

 

Most likely the horse has left the barn, whether or not it has become physical. It's naive to think that having a good talk with your wife about boundaries or that you suspect she's involved with another man is going to put a stop to her "feelings". Most likely it will backfire on you, not to be harsh but it's like announcing that you're a wimp and afraid to lose her. This type of action reinforces her ego and the justification she has manufactured to step out on you.

 

There is absolutely nothing sexy about a man who willingly plays the pick me dance. At his point you need to decide how to deal with this on your own terms, instead of half measures that are based without proof.

 

You're in an favourable position, the great majority of betrayed spouses in hindsight wish they had a do-over in how they handled things early on when their emotions overtook their common sense.

 

It's naive to think a little chit chat about how you feel about cheating is going to miraculously snap your wife out of her emotional affair or stop her from taking it forward to a physical affair.

 

I advise you seek irrefutable proof because without it the common cheater will deny,deny,deny.

 

Information is your friend and get as much of it as possible before you act. Think long and hard about what you will do with the information and how best to proceed. The ball is your court and use your brains and not emotions and do what is best for you at this point. You can't save a marriage alone, and realize that at this point there is no marriage.

[spanz1]

CBlock?

 

i.e. you are going to block the other man's C**k

[VeryBrokenMan]

Get proof, get proof, get proof. I can't say that enough.

 

If you don't have proof I don't think you will ever know the extent of her affair. Read the first few pages of my thread to see what I did in detail but in a nutshell I confronted and she denied, I hired a PI, got the complete picture and 39 days later gave her an ultimatum. You MUST deal with affairs from a position of strength. Be willing and ready to divorce when you give her the ultimatum. Don't sugar coat it: tell her either she breaks it off that day or you will file for divorce. That shocked my fWW back to reality. They are in a dream world when in the affair and it takes "shock and awe" to snap them out of their fantasy.

[spanz1]

Most likely the horse has left the barn, whether or not it has become physical. It's naive to think that having a good talk with your wife about boundaries or that you suspect she's involved with another man is going to put a stop to her "feelings".

 

 

IF she is already having an affair...either emotional OR physical, her brain chemistry has changed. it is flooding her pleasure centers with endorphines, just like if she was a clueless teenage girl on prom night. So yeah, just having a TALK is not going to suddenly make a big change. She, assuming she suddenly sees the error of her actions, will need MONTHS to come down from this chemical high.

 

OFTEN cheating spouses need a sharp hit upside their head to see reality! they are in "the fog" of a new relationship, and need something like divorce papers and the prospect of living the rest of their lives without your income/house to support her, to snap her back to reality.

 

But like i and the above poster said, IF you are going to talk to her, it helps to do so from a position of power. you need to know SOMETHING about what is really going on. text message trails on your phone bill, emails and deleted text messages you pried from her computer/phone. Some tracking stuff that said that instead of her going to your health club, she was instead across town parked for hours at some apartment complex....

 

And if you DO uncover that it is an affair, and the guy is married...call HIS wife and clue her in. that is an excellent way to kill the affair instantly.

[understand50]

Not a good situation. I wish you luck

307

[VeryBrokenMan]

IF she is already having an affair...either emotional OR physical, her brain chemistry has changed. it is flooding her pleasure centers with endorphines, just like if she was a clueless teenage girl on prom night. So yeah, just having a TALK is not going to suddenly make a big change. She, assuming she suddenly sees the error of her actions, will need MONTHS to come down from this chemical high.

 

OFTEN cheating spouses need a sharp hit upside their head to see reality! they are in "the fog" of a new relationship, and need something like divorce papers and the prospect of living the rest of their lives without your income/house to support her, to snap her back to reality.

 

But like i and the above poster said, IF you are going to talk to her, it helps to do so from a position of power. you need to know SOMETHING about what is really going on. text message trails on your phone bill, emails and deleted text messages you pried from her computer/phone. Some tracking stuff that said that instead of her going to your health club, she was instead across town parked for hours at some apartment complex....

 

And if you DO uncover that it is an affair, and the guy is married...call HIS wife and clue her in. that is an excellent way to kill the affair instantly.

 

All good advise. I'd also add that if she uses an android based cell phone there is a trail of everywhere she has been the last 6 months unless she has opted out. Search for "google location history". You will need her gmail password to see it but her location for each day for the prior 6 months can be viewed.

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

Wait and gather proof - I may eventually get it (assuming it's ongoing or will progress to the worst possible outcome) but I will have to live the rest of my life knowing I basically enabled the affair.

 

If the above that you stated is the WORST possible outcome, you DO NOT wait to gather proof. Especially if you think there is any chance this has not gone PA yet. it may have, since you have not been specific in what changes in her behavior you are noticing. And understand something about gathering proof. You can have pictures of her banging OM, and there are some WW that will still deny it and tell you you are crazy.

 

if you decide to talk to her, you DO NOT have a nice general chat about infidelity. You tell her exactly why you think she is having an affair and most important, you tell her EXACTLY what the consequences are going to be. If she believes you, she may come clean. If you tell her that you will forgive her no matter what, she will tell you nothing.

 

You are getting conflicting advice because people are trying to help you based on their experiences. If your quote above is how you really feel, if you sit back and gather evidence, which can take time unless you are lucky, you can be doing exactly what you say will be the worst possible outcome, i.e. enabling it to go on while you wait.

 

One thing is certain, you need to get the snooping electronics installed right away or confront her before this trip or you are going to be a mess.

 

If you read the forums you will see the misery that occurs when you sit and watch and gather for too long waiting for proof that could convince the Supreme Court. And it is all also dependent on how you can function knowing this is going on waiting daily to check a VAR.

 

if she is dressing different, staying out late with girlfriends, locking her phone all of a sudden, "grooming" herself differently, or not wanting to be sexual with you, then she is definitely already involved with someone. These things do not happen out of the clear blue sky for no reason.

 

The sex and intimacy thing is important. Women in affairs ususally fall into two categories.

(1) those that are so in the "fog" of the affair sex that their husbands are no longer exciting or attractive. they become "distant" and their sex drive in many cases decreases dramatically. This is usually one reason the Bh starts to suspect, and these type are easier to catch because the guilt and sneaking affects their behavior.

(2) the other type is the type who is able to totally "compartmentalize' the affair, and accept it for what it is, just excitement and a thrill. the sex can actually increase with these WW because they are so horny thinking about their OM that they are totally able to function without missing a beat. Obviously, these affairs are harder to catch and last longer before being caught unless they make a mistake.

 

I would not worry about her going "underground" if you confront her. She already is underground and no matter what evidence you get she can open another account ior app if she wants to. if it gets to that point, you have one other little ace card you can play and that is the polygraph. if she is telling you the truth, she will want to take one. if she is lying her ass off, she will refuse and give you ten stupid reasons. her reaction to the demand is what is important.

 

Zinger, you have gotten some good advice from different people. It all depends on what YOU believe you can live with on which course of action you take. Gathering evidence will probably "make your case" but she may have sex with him for a while until you get that.

 

Trust you gut and do what is right for you.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

Gather evidence and proof. When you are satisfied that you have the proof, just tell her that you know what's going on and she should just tell the truth.

 

Say you don't want to stand in the way of her happiness and tell her to go be with the man she wants to be. Get out.

 

Without proof, she will just deny and obfuscate. Don't give her a choice. She made her choice already. If you want to salvage the marriage, a tough emotional jolt is the only way.

[Clarence_Boddicker]

Hire a PI & have your home bugged. Don't confront unless you have soild evidence & divorce papers. Letting her know you know without proof is either paranoia or weakness. You're either wrong about it, or you are showing you are weak by not ending things.

 

 

Cheating is a total deal breaker, no matter what has been invested. If she knows you won't leave after catching her in an affair, you are no longer on equal grounds.