To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Did she say how she met the OM?

 

What happens next for you? Is this something you can forgive?

 

No. Didn't ask - something I need to find out.

I honestly don't know. Even when I was going through 20+ pages of good feedaback here it felt like this is not happening to me. Even now it feels that way.

 

I'll put it in other way. I can not imagine what she can do to make me to forgive her.

Any input to this issue will be absolutely critical to me. Absolutely.

[oldshirt]

exits are when you try to take gifts back.

 

 

 

 

 

good point!!!!!!!!!!!

[TobyBoy]

No. Didn't ask - something I need to find out.

I honestly don't know. Even when I was going through 20+ pages of good feedaback here it felt like this is not happening to me. Even now it feels that way.

 

I'll put it in other way. I can not imagine what she can do to make me to forgive her.

Any input to this issue will be absolutely critical to me. Absolutely.

 

Some require the following just to consider reconciliation.

1.True remorse.

2.Complete accountability for her affair, no blame-shifting.

3.Full timeline of events of this and any other affair.

4.Full transparency. All her passwords to all her hidden accounts. No deleting of evidence.

5.Agree to polygraph to determine if it was physical or other betrayals.

6.IC for her.

 

These would be my minimum requirements.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I'm very sorry to hear this, friend.

 

I'm a WIS, so watches are my thing. I just wanted an idea if she dropped $500 or $5,000 or more on the gift, as it would be telling. You don'tgive a $5,000 watch to ssomeone you've just had a solely emotional involvement with. The details aren't important now, you're right.

 

I parting expensive gift doesn't make sense to me. I think she's just lyingnow to cover hherself and she hasn't had a chance to assemble a more coherent story.

 

I'd also figure her best female friend knew about this and covered for her. She's a co conspirator and her friend, not yours, so keep this in mind if she tries to sway your opinion. To me, she'd haveaabout as much credibility as your wife: none.

 

I still think you shouldn't leave the house. It all became suddenly real for your wife, and unlike before it's not all up to her. This is very frightening for her and she didn't expect it. She's pretty shaken. But I really don't think you should care.

 

Good luck.

[eric1]

It is critical that you remain no contact for the moment. You are assured that she has been in contact with family who you can assume will keep her safe.

 

Collect your emotions, remain in no contact and retain legal advice to advise you of 100% how to protect yourself. Anything you say or do can be held against you from this point forward and while the advice here will be good, you may have a specific situation or regional law which unfortunately means our advice should come with a grain of salt.

 

The relationship was obviously physical as evidenced by their touching in the cafe. To the degree that it was beyond is academic at this point.

 

All of this information, of course, can be verified by Kik logs, but at this point I'm pretty sure you're sure of what you'll find there, so why bother?

[eric1]

No. Didn't ask - something I need to find out.

I honestly don't know. Even when I was going through 20+ pages of good feedaback here it felt like this is not happening to me. Even now it feels that way.

 

I'll put it in other way. I can not imagine what she can do to make me to forgive her.

Any input to this issue will be absolutely critical to me. Absolutely.

 

She was giving him a gift as a way to escalate the relationship. Her heart and soul were shifting to her new lover. At this point she is regretful that she got caught, but is not at all remorseful for her affair.

 

Here's the thing - reconciliation needs to be driven by her. You'll get bullet points for people here, which are correct to understand. But at some level you'll have to get the little cartoon idea bulb over your head when you feel that she feels she is an awful person, and not someone just working to get the marriage back.

 

Frankly, it might never happen. Frankly, it probably will never happen. This is why you need a new days of No Contact. Your marriage is OVER. Period. Now it's your decision if your FWW is the person best suited to make you fulfilled for the rest of your life, or if there is someone else better suited for that role.

 

Personally, I believe that the answer is usually "someone else" since you know what you're getting with FWW....and that's not good. Scroll through this forum and a few of the other ones and you'll see the maxim of "once a cheater always a cheater" is unfortunately usually true. There are awesome women out there, ones who doing what she did to you would never ever occur to them in 100 years.

[oldshirt]

I can not imagine what she can do to make me to forgive her.

 

 

.

 

 

 

This is actually an important fact. The truth is you DON'T know what can be done to fix this at that time, if anything. It may take months before the dust has cleared enough and you are able to peel back all the layers and be able to know for sure what course is the best to take.

 

 

What those of us that have been on here for any length of time have seen time and time again though is that there are basically two options where people retain their dignity and their self of self-worth and go on to live good lives post Dday.

 

 

One is where they draw a strong line in the sand, do "The 180" to the letter and hold their WS accountable for their actions and don't allow them to manipulate or gas light or rugsweep or plead or negotiate their way into anything less than full disclosure and commit to intensive therapy and counseling and commit to 100% transparency and life-long complete NC with AP (and of course don't pick up any other APs along the way) SOME of those couples survive intact and have happy and healthy marriages a couple years down the road after a ton of hard work and intensive therapy.

 

 

(and this is all assuming that the WS even wants to reconcile and remain in the marriage. most say they do after the initial shock after getting busted, but many of those throw in the towel once they learn how much hard work they really have to do)

 

 

 

 

 

 

The other people that come out OK in the end are the ones that just walk away and start a whole new life for themselves leaving the WS behind.

 

 

Those are the two groups that have had success. The ones that fall somewhere in between all get eaten alive and ground through the mud and kicked in the teeth and cheated on and mistreated again repeatedly and come out of it destroyed and completely humiliated and broken.

 

 

Whether you toss her out and divorce immediately or whether you try to reconcile, the key to success is strength and determination and not taking an ounce of crap off of anybody.

 

 

It may take months before you have a clear idea of what to do. My advice is keep all options open at that moment and make no agreements to anything at this point until all the facts are in and you have a grasp of where things stand.

 

 

Start making preparations to divorce and move on and have that be a very valid option and be able to do so if that is what you need to do.

 

 

But keep an open mind that reconciliation may also be on the table but that will depend heavily on how honest she is and how transparent she is and how committed she is to fixing the damage and distrust that she has done. it's ok to consider reconciliation but you have to have the ax in your hand at all times and be willing to make it come down at any moment if she balks or tries to pull a fast one.

[oldshirt]

She was giving him a gift as a way to escalate the relationship. .

 

 

 

Gifts are an "investment" into the relationship. There's just no other way around that.

 

 

It's either some form of 'thank you' for something that someone has done in the past.

 

 

Or it's a term of endearment and investment for something you wish to acheive in the future.

 

 

Period.

[Binster]

Good post from oldshirt.

 

Don't want to cause any more pain to you but if you were away for those few days it gave plenty of time to go to P.A

 

If you decide to try again lots of things you may want.

a written timeline

phone/computer history

maybe a poly test (as much for the threat as anything else).

 

the other guys will give a better list than I can.

 

Sorry again it turned out like this.

[turnera]

While she is still remorseful (at getting caught) and still begging you to forgive her, schedule a polygraph. Trust me, she won't stay that way. Eventually, you'll become her adversary.

[No Limit]

I don't see the point in waiting anymore, it's obvious she's had an affair for some time now. Sit her down and demand she tell you everything - once that's done, sit her down again to the polygraph test right afterwards and if she has lied just a single time you hand her divorce papers. On the other hand, should you decide you want to reconcile - keep the PI after her. Once she reaches out to OM, you should strongly consider divorcing.

[Steen719]

I cannot believe that I did not remember this until I read Oldshirt's post about the watch! OMG!! My XH's first AP gave him a watch in the middle of their affair. I can't pretend to know why, but I remember I found the watch and the card that went with it about how she loved him and some STUPID sentiment about keeping up with when she would she him next.

 

Wow, old memories from 1997. I didn't look for anything in 2011...I had the black and white kind, thanks to technology.

[eric1]

Is your PI still on her? Has she gotten in touch with her lover since?

[merrmeade]

Well OP. You got confirmation, but it seems you do not know "of what" exactly.

 

EA is confessed.

 

But now you are left with a WW who claims she was ENDING her EA, presumably because of the very two early discussion you had with her.

 

Which options are there?

 

1) That she really was ending a EA when she realised your position.

2) That she realised your position but was moving forward with her EA until, at least, she got caught.

Umm, no. There are 3 options, maybe many more, that involve LYING. She's already been lying. That there was at LEAST an EA - True. But once they've lied, NOTHING they say is trustworthy again. Nothing. You need proof.

[merrmeade]

Did do the stuff I listed in post#200?:

And bank statements. Between credit card and bank statements you can track a person's whereabouts depending on how much they use plastic. Where was she when she bought gas? When was she at x, y, z restaurant? What other purchases do you see?

zinger, did you DO this? - check the bank and credit card statements?

 

You are looking for -

 

1 - specific purchases

2 - pmts for hotel/motels

3 - GAS from gas stations in new/atypical locales,

4 - TICKETS to venues you didn't know about

5 - especially pmts to RESTAURANTS in new/atypical locales

 

And in lieu of specific payments like these,

 

6 - ATM withdrawals

 

I mean, ZINGER: How did she pay for the watch? There's a freakin' trail somewhere. Just find it.

 

YOU need this proof. Divorce settlements need this proof. She needs to know you have this proof.

 

Hell, maybe I should be a freakin' PI. I'm getting impatient with this guy. Why doesn't HE have access to all your stuff and figured this out already?

[TobyBoy]

Did do the stuff I listed in post#200?:zinger, did you DO this? - check the bank and credit card statements?

 

You are looking for -

 

1 - specific purchases

2 - pmts for hotel/motels

3 - GAS from gas stations in new/atypical locales,

4 - TICKETS to venues you didn't know about

5 - especially pmts to RESTAURANTS in new/atypical locales

 

And in lieu of specific payments like these,

 

6 - ATM withdrawals

 

I mean, ZINGER: How did she pay for the watch? There's a freakin' trail somewhere. Just find it.

 

YOU need this proof. Divorce settlements need this proof. She needs to know you have this proof.

 

Hell, maybe I should be a freakin' PI. I'm getting impatient with this guy. Why doesn't HE have access to all your stuff and figured this out already?

If he's been using android device manager to track her phone, he can use Google Location History to track where she's been using the same account. He can go back months to see her tracks on a map with time stamps!!!

[merrmeade]

I don't see the point in waiting anymore, it's obvious she's had an affair for some time now. Sit her down and demand she tell you everything - once that's done, sit her down again to the polygraph test right afterwards and if she has lied just a single time you hand her divorce papers. On the other hand, should you decide you want to reconcile - keep the PI after her. Once she reaches out to OM, you should strongly consider divorcing.

No, it's not about one or the other. It's about proof.

 

zinger:

You need to know how far beyond "touching cheeks" and "holding hands" the PA went.

 

(ie - If there are hotel bill pmts, there was more. If there are purchases/pmts to gas stations or restaurants in strange places, maybe there was more. Also use the Toby's idea of useing Google stamps to track. There's much more. What's wrong with this PI! )

 

Note: I'm sorry but you have to be in your head a little more longer. It's necessary.

[No Limit]

zinger:

You need to know how far beyond "touching cheeks" and "holding hands" the PA went.

 

That's what polygraphs are for.

[merrmeade]

Originally Posted by zinger

I can not imagine what she can do to make me to forgive her.

It may take months ...

Years.

 

Maybe never.

 

oldshirt is courageous to answer this question and has done an enviable job of hitting the main points with usable suggestions.

 

There are LS threads and posts going back years on this subject. Books. Sermons. Internet articles. Forgiveness as a concept has only begun for you. As a reality, you may never know it or you may transcend it.

 

It's too big and too early is my point. Just get through one day at a time. Feel and try not to stay in "numb." You'll just have to dredge it up later and go through the feelings out of context.

 

It's way too soon for forgiveness.

[drifter777]

Zinger: in your stunned, emotionally damaged state of mind it is difficult to do anything but hurt. As you begin moving forward the next few days you must guard against giving in to the dark aide : denial. It often takes the form of "I can handle this. After all, time heals all wounds". And time alone heals nothing. Believing your wife's lies will hold the promise of relief from this horror. But its only a brief respite and the truth will begin to trickle out.

 

She is lying - every time her lips move. You jumped the gun despite much advice to wait for real evidence that proves things one way or another. Now the path to the truth got longer and much harder.

[fellini]

Jumped the gun? He caught his spouse in a lie, at a cafe, with her AP, handing gifts and caressing.

 

Now his WW is in damage control (nothing new there) is trying to downplay the extent of the affair or not, (Nothing new there), and begging and crying and pleading having been caught (nothing new there).

 

What he did manage to do is to prevent having to witness them in a hotel room.

 

Even if there had been an EA prior, and she was lying about it being her good bye present: NOTHING NEW THERE EITHER.

 

The first job is to put a stop the the A.

Now he has to decide if HE wants to stay, and if so, he has to do the work untangling the lies - past, present, and certainly more to come - as she begins to dance around his ability to know what may or may not have really gone on.

 

Their relationship has taken a turn: She is no longer living a secret. Now he can decide what that means for him and for his marriage.

 

But jumping the gun he did not do.

[lgspot]

zinger, are you still using the P.I.?

Now that she knows you know, a lot can be found from her actions and what the OM does.

Once again I say, information is YOUR friend...

 

zinger, I personally believe reconciliation is possible. Have seen it several times with friends and family. What she does now can be important to your future whether you are with her or not. Her actions will tell you more than her words.

Best wishes and take care of yourself.

[drifter777]

Jumped the gun? He caught his spouse in a lie, at a cafe, with her AP, handing gifts and caressing.

 

Now his WW is in damage control (nothing new there) is trying to downplay the extent of the affair or not, (Nothing new there), and begging and crying and pleading having been caught (nothing new there).

 

What he did manage to do is to prevent having to witness them in a hotel room.

 

Even if there had been an EA prior, and she was lying about it being her good bye present: NOTHING NEW THERE EITHER.

 

The first job is to put a stop the the A.

Now he has to decide if HE wants to stay, and if so, he has to do the work untangling the lies - past, present, and certainly more to come - as she begins to dance around his ability to know what may or may not have really gone on.

 

Their relationship has taken a turn: She is no longer living a secret. Now he can decide what that means for him and for his marriage.

 

But jumping the gun he did not do.

To know whether she is having sex with him is vital to any decision on reconciliation. He jumped the gun in that he is now dependent on his detective ability to find out the truth. I understand why he did.it - his own fear of discovering more details got the better of him. Unwittingly, he made his recovery harder.

[zinger]

What's WIS? It makes sense and I'll try to find out more as a matter of "behavioral analysis", don't really care about the financial aspect.

 

I'll check with her friend although I'm more or less confident she played no part in this. She's just that kind of person who'd help my FWW - and she sounded very upset on the phone.

 

 

 

I'm very sorry to hear this, friend.

 

I'm a WIS, so watches are my thing. I just wanted an idea if she dropped $500 or $5,000 or more on the gift, as it would be telling. You don'tgive a $5,000 watch to ssomeone you've just had a solely emotional involvement with. The details aren't important now, you're right.

 

I parting expensive gift doesn't make sense to me. I think she's just lyingnow to cover hherself and she hasn't had a chance to assemble a more coherent story.

 

I'd also figure her best female friend knew about this and covered for her. She's a co conspirator and her friend, not yours, so keep this in mind if she tries to sway your opinion. To me, she'd haveaabout as much credibility as your wife: none.

 

I still think you shouldn't leave the house. It all became suddenly real for your wife, and unlike before it's not all up to her. This is very frightening for her and she didn't expect it. She's pretty shaken. But I really don't think you should care.

 

Good luck.

[CarrieT]

What's WIS?

Watch Idiot Savant.

And as a personal rant, I *hate* abbreviations, including the ones used here on LoveShack; BS, AP, EA, FWW etc...

 

I'll check with her friend although I'm more or less confident she played no part in this. She's just that kind of person who'd help my FWW - and she sounded very upset on the phone.

How are YOU doing today, Zinger? I am assuming your wife has been trying to get in touch with you?