To bust or not to bust

[SycamoreCircle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, don't open Pandora's Box. What you know is enough. Trust that. Concentrate on you. Concentrate on getting as far away as possible from this. This isn't true crime. No further evidence needs to be gathered, organized, filed away so that justice can be meted out. There is no justice.

 

I think, in some ways, this is a defense mechanism that we go through to deal with the shock. By applying some accelerated sense of fact finding, we think we can rationally explain it all away and nurse our hurt. Well, the heart is murky territory. No forensic analysis of this love crime is going to clear things up. It must remain a mystery. With time, the perplexity of the mystery will fade. Accept its impossibility. Let go. Just let go.

[beatcuff]

May I please ask to post a link to a thread where husband was legally destroying the OM?

 

and this is why you need an IC.

 

i have been following the thread and felt until now, my input was covered. an IC is NOT there for additional emotional support. rather they should 'refocus' you on preparing to move forward. if you instead wrote my W said it was 'over', the responses would suggest the '180'. and that is what the IC will steer you to.

 

ok, you are in the anger (very emotional) stage, we understand, so i suggest you walk slow. eventually (hopefully) you will move forward and looking back may appreciate what you didn't do. a/k/a it may feel great now but later it may not.

 

failing that, your attorney will set you straight (hint: blue state judges take dim views if a restraining order is taken against you).

[eric1]

This... FML....

 

 

 

This is why it's essential to reconsider no breaking No Contact and return home. You're about to get hit over the head with emotional manipulation. None of your return home, or discovery of additional information, will steer your course differently so why do it to yourself? She did this to YOU. YOU are the victim. YOU heal.

 

You're at an emotional stage now. I've been there. Go dark. Execute your plan. And I PROMISE you at some point this will not longer be a dagger to the throat. That's when you look for closure.

 

I feel you've been handling this well and I feel you're a lot like myself. I'm just saying from experience that at this point I was my own worst enemy. I'd pay a million dollars if I could go back in time and execute my plan like it was a GANTT chart, and once I was done let myself settle down.

 

Please take this in the spirit of me sharing my experiences with you, take them with the grain of salt that they assuredly deserve! None of us are exactly alike.

[BetrayedH]

This... FML....

 

This is why a therapist can be helpful. These emotions are going to keep coming at you. Most of them can be categorized into the five stages of grief: denial, bargaining, depression, anger, and acceptance. Getting to the end can take years and profoundly affect future relationships.

 

I do think that you're (outwardly) handling this better than most. Your decisions have been rational and you haven't let your emotions get the best of you. I would have preferred to see you get proof of a physical affair before confronting (you can see how difficult it is going to be to really know that now) but it's water under the bridge and you've acted well within the norm. Almost no one can stop themselves from confronting once they confirm that an affair is happening.

 

I'd used a GPS to track her to a hotel at night. After a little research, I had enough hotel data to "know." But I hired a PI for video proof as I thought it would matter in a divorce. The PI failed and I continued to sit on the info I had. I made it 3 days before she said something about how she was "trying to work on the marriage" and I lost it.

 

Like you, I think I was actually pretty stable and rational up to that point. But it completely changed when I confronted. Suddenly, she was crying, saying she was glad that I finally knew, that she was so sorry. She said she would break off the affair, answer any questions that I wanted to ask, fix the marriage, go to individual counseling and marriage counseling, would never lie to me again. My resolve to divorce just melted away. In utter irony, I found myself hugging and consoling her. That's when the emotional anguish came in. Do I trust this "remorse" that I see? Do I give another chance? What if I do and she goes off to meet the OM? How will I know? Should I have her trailed? Am I being stupid?

 

It became obsessive. My mind was constantly thinking about all of it. I became hypervigilant. I didn't sleep. I hardly ate (lost 25 lbs in the first month and 38lbs total in the months to follow). I couldn't focus at work, plagued by visions of her boss bending her over his desk. I didn't know who to talk to. LoveShack was split between those that support reconciliation and those that don't. I wanted to save the family for my kids and my broken wife. Two ICs and our MC all eventually said that I had symptoms of PTSD. I got my MD to put me on antidepressants.

 

It went for 8 months. End result: she was lying thru her teeth the whole time.

 

I think it's wise not to make a single move in your wife's direction until she proves everything to you, not with words but with actions. And having a therapist to help with the emotions isn't a bad idea. I have a feeling that your conversation with your wife is going to affect you more than you expect. You've been able to avoid her so far. But you're going to want to believe her. You may even have sympathy for her; it sounds like you already do. I think you're going to be torn about what to do.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you're a stronger individual. I hope so. Even if you end up reconciling, your strength will have helped that effort.

 

Good luck.

[No Limit]

Thanks,

Great input, I'd probably want to confirm:

1. I do need a professional help - from a lawyer, perhaps even more so when I get to the OM.

2. I want to be fair and give credit to my FWW where credit is due. She is far from letting the parents to act as a proxy and the "he'll be back" attitude. She was devastated, shattered and desperate since I confronted and full of re (morse)/(gret). My phone is full of calls, messages and texts and she sounds (in texts and messages) as regretful as one could imagine. The calls and texts are not stopping (yet).

 

I know what you all are going to say and I keep a pragmatic outlook on it, but given the circumstances I'm not sure I presented her current behavior objectively.

 

Agree with the other 2 paragraphs in your response BTW.

 

Don't give her credit before you speak to her. If she spills the beans, yes she's remorseful. If not there are still too many remnants of selfishness left to bother with reconciliation.

 

As for destroying OM - no offense to artists but almost all of them are broke anyway, there likely isn't much to destroy. And they must have met somehow - since you mentioned you found certain website addresses in her search history it was HER who looked for someone else. If it hadn't been this guy, it would have been the next guy whose profile she randomly clicked on. It was your wife's choice, conscious, wanted and planned. Nonetheless I don't see anything wrong with confronting him - perhaps his perspective might actually help. Who knows, maybe he doesn't even know you exist.

[BetrayedH]

Zinger, in all of these texts and voicemails, what is she offering to do about any of this? And is she offering up any more detail that an "inappropriate emotional relationship?"

[oldshirt]

Don't give her credit before you speak to her. If she spills the beans, yes she's remorseful. If not there are still too many remnants of selfishness left to bother with reconciliation.

 

As for destroying OM - no offense to artists but almost all of them are broke anyway, there likely isn't much to destroy. And they must have met somehow - since you mentioned you found certain website addresses in her search history it was HER who looked for someone else. If it hadn't been this guy, it would have been the next guy whose profile she randomly clicked on. It was your wife's choice, conscious, wanted and planned. Nonetheless I don't see anything wrong with confronting him - perhaps his perspective might actually help. Who knows, maybe he doesn't even know you exist.

 

 

From the info we have so far, it sounds like this OM was an internet hook up.

 

That's a different animal than a coworker or a friend from her social circle.

 

With a coworker/friend etc there is a risk of some developed feelings, future planning, fantasies of divorce and a future with OM etc etc.

 

With an internet hook up, this was likely just a bid for some extra excitement and some strange. For OM it was just some quick and

Easy poon.

 

This is likely not an entrenched affair and may have even been busted up before any real feelings developed (hormone rush for sure, but probably no real feelings)

 

The chances of her wanting to end the marriage for OM is probably around 0.001%.

 

The chances of the OM being willing to stand up and fight for her once approached is probably about the same.

 

There is a possibility he isn't even aware she was married.

 

What kind of website was this? Was it a conventional, vanilla dating site or was it a cheater site like Ashley Madison or a swinger site?

 

Has your PI found her website profile? Does she mention being married or imply being single?

[eric1]

I think that if some some completely ****ed up reason Zinger wants to reconcile I would keep contacting OM as the ace in the hole.

 

Again, I completely one billion percent agree with him proceeding with divorce yesterday, and leave her and her poisonous self in the rearview mirror but...

 

(what follows is pain porn and is written as basically the only way I'd use her boyfriend *at this point*)

-----------------------------------

If she ever agrees to No Contact (they've been chatting since DDay in case anyone is wondering... her and her lover think Zinger is a rube and won't catch onto Kik) do this:

 

1. Have her agree to unconditional 100% no contact

2. Give it a day

3. let it "slip" that you've paid a Private Investigator $25,000 to completely ruin this guys life. Like build it up, completely obliterate it. That you were on your way out to watch this ******* go down in flames.

4. Harvest the proceeds of her broken No Contact

-------------------------------------

 

Zinger, the second you walk into the house I hope you're on a 180. Also before saying a single word please ask her for possession of her mobile device, other eletronics and all of her passwords to the devices and applications / web services. Make this a condition of even saying a single word. If she doesn't acquise then just turn around and walk out.

[eric1]

From the info we have so far, it sounds like this OM was an internet hook up.

 

That's a different animal than a coworker or a friend from her social circle.

 

With a coworker/friend etc there is a risk of some developed feelings, future planning, fantasies of divorce and a future with OM etc etc.

 

With an internet hook up, this was likely just a bid for some extra excitement and some strange. For OM it was just some quick and

Easy poon.

 

This is likely not an entrenched affair and may have even been busted up before any real feelings developed (hormone rush for sure, but probably no real feelings)

 

The chances of her wanting to end the marriage for OM is probably around 0.001%.

 

The chances of the OM being willing to stand up and fight for her once approached is probably about the same.

 

There is a possibility he isn't even aware she was married.

 

What kind of website was this? Was it a conventional, vanilla dating site or was it a cheater site like Ashley Madison or a swinger site?

 

Has your PI found her website profile? Does she mention being married or imply being single?

 

In my opinion Ashley Madison is worse. I do not excuse any affair but Ashley Madison means that she was the proactive aggressor in looking outside of marriage. Again, all infidelity is bad, but this isn't getting blackout drunk and blowing her boss. AM suggests extreme premeditation.

[RightThere]

I have never seen one in my life, but from what I read there are two (generalizing) reasons people want to see IC.

 

1. If they feel there is something wrong/broken with them and they need an assistance or assessment by a professional. Well, I do not believe I'm broken or have done anything wrong that is proportional to or can be considered as causing the affair. I'm not ideal and had to turn my life around from a "street kid" to who I am, but I never requested nor needed any assistance from anyone.

 

2. If they can't cope. Well, these are hundred percent not the happiest days of my life, but I can cope.

 

3. If they need answers. Well, I do but not the abstract and philosophical ones from a 3rd party. There's one and only one person who could give me the answers and if she sees the benefit in doing so she can have an appointment.

 

You'll get as much from a counsellor as you will on these boards. Personally, I got way more here than I ever did shelling out $100/hr for a counsellor.

[BetrayedH]

I'm not sure if I'd say anything about the OM other than to ask who he is. It might be enlightening to see if she tries to protect him by lying or refusing to divulge.

[oldshirt]

In my opinion Ashley Madison is worse. I do not excuse any affair but Ashley Madison means that she was the proactive aggressor in looking outside of marriage. Again, all infidelity is bad, but this isn't getting blackout drunk and blowing her boss. AM suggests extreme premeditation.

 

With about any other site she could make up a story about looking up coworkers profile or checking it out to see what it's all about do to a conversation with a friend etc etc

 

But with AM it is lock, stock and barrel intent and forethought to get some on the side.

 

Getting busted on AM is getting as busted as you can get. This is no other explanation for being there.

[drifter777]

From experience I'd suggest demanding details of their affair for your mental health but not getting hung up on the sex. The problem is that it will then become about an act versus the overall betrayal. You of course have the right to know, but finding out didn't ultimately matter to me at least.

...

 

Sex is ultimately biological. It represents the biggest possible betrayal but it's not the biggest betrayal. The biggest betrayal is giving her heart to another man.

Getting "hung up on the sex" is not a choice. For the majority of betrayed husbands it's all about the sex. The emotional component and the lying/deceiving is just as horrible for most of us, but it's the sex that fuels the horrible mind movies of her with OM and is the biggest impediment to reconciliation. Often times the WW can demonstrate complete remorse and do everything possible to rebuild the marriage but, in the end, the BH simply can't get past the sex. zinger has demonstrated that knowing if she had sex with OM is important to him and, in my opinion, it should be. It is a major factor in whether to even attempt reconciliation. Just as understanding that when a husband bust's his wife cheating it greatly raises the divorce rate.

 

Over a five year period, 80 percent of the couples that kept the secret of infidelity were divorced, while only 43 percent of those who confessed ended in a split.

 

I think that she had sex with him, but I can't know. I think this because of the dozen's and dozen's of infidelity stories I've read as well as personal experiences. The cheater will lie until it is proven that they had sex. Then they will minimize with things like "it was only one time" and "it was awful - he was terrible" and "he was much smaller than you" and "we only had missionary" - all that bullsh*t. When the truth about these things begins to trickle out it feels like d-day all over again. It's feels like a living nightmare that you cannot wake up from.

[fellini]

It's strange how people talk about men's inability to get over the physical like it was a sure thing. First of all, it's not true that all men are like that.

 

But is it a strength? Can it not also be a weakness in men? And I doubt that it has anything to do with biology and everything to do with gender. Which suggests that we are getting the short end of the stick in the morals and values department.

 

What do you think are the realities (never mind percentages) that women will forgive men their INFIDELITY but men will not forgive women for the same?

 

Do you think it's fair for men to say that the PA isn't such a big problem for women? Maybe it's that women who have a different set of values upon which they interpret the world around them are merely better at living with the complexities and contradictions that are necessary when faced with problems like infidelity.

[eric1]

Getting "hung up on the sex" is not a choice. For the majority of betrayed husbands it's all about the sex. The emotional component and the lying/deceiving is just as horrible for most of us, but it's the sex that fuels the horrible mind movies of her with OM and is the biggest impediment to reconciliation. Often times the WW can demonstrate complete remorse and do everything possible to rebuild the marriage but, in the end, the BH simply can't get past the sex. zinger has demonstrated that knowing if she had sex with OM is important to him and, in my opinion, it should be. It is a major factor in whether to even attempt reconciliation. Just as understanding that when a husband bust's his wife cheating it greatly raises the divorce rate.

 

Over a five year period, 80 percent of the couples that kept the secret of infidelity were divorced, while only 43 percent of those who confessed ended in a split.

 

I think that she had sex with him, but I can't know. I think this because of the dozen's and dozen's of infidelity stories I've read as well as personal experiences. The cheater will lie until it is proven that they had sex. Then they will minimize with things like "it was only one time" and "it was awful - he was terrible" and "he was much smaller than you" and "we only had missionary" - all that bullsh*t. When the truth about these things begins to trickle out it feels like d-day all over again. It's feels like a living nightmare that you cannot wake up from.

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I admittedly sometimes do throw out my own experiences as universal truths.

 

From my experience I found that sex was the thing I got the most angry about, but the thing that would wake me up in a cold sweat was hearing the tone of her voice talking to him (I recorded them). Even now I have pain typing it. The sex thing I don't even give a **** about anymore, but I will never NEVER get over the tone of her voice.

 

From the few of us in this unlucky club that I know of in real life, this seems to be consistent. Hell, half of it is that I f**cked around a ton after my ex wife and NONE of the sex healed me. I naively thought deep down I thought that I could fight fire with fire, but then I guess I figured out that sex is definitely possible without emotion and wasn't a big deal to me atleast.

[BetrayedH]

It's strange how people talk about men's inability to get over the physical like it was a sure thing. First of all, it's not true that all men are like that.

 

But is it a strength? Can it not also be a weakness in men? And I doubt that it has anything to do with biology and everything to do with gender. Which suggests that we are getting the short end of the stick in the morals and values department.

 

What do you think are the realities (never mind percentages) that women will forgive men their INFIDELITY but men will not forgive women for the same?

 

Do you think it's fair for men to say that the PA isn't such a big problem for women? Maybe it's that women who have a different set of values upon which they interpret the world around them are merely better at living with the complexities and contradictions that are necessary when faced with problems like infidelity.

 

From the stats that I've seen, men are about 10% more likely to divorce. We can guess at the reasons. Perhaps women are more enlightened/less concerned about a physical affair and more concerned about any emotional connection (and men's affairs may typically be more about sex than emotions).

 

Or perhaps they are economically more dependent upon men and thus, more apt to try to reconcile.

 

Or perhaps men are more shallow.

 

Are you suggesting thay zinger should be more enlightened?

 

He's said that a PA would be a dealbreaker. I, for one, won't be judging him for that.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

Like I wrote before, this guy is nothing. He was just the one standing there when your wife decided to throw caution to the wind and indulge. Let him have her. That's probably the worst thing you can do to both.

[drifter777]

It's strange how people talk about men's inability to get over the physical like it was a sure thing. First of all, it's not true that all men are like that.

I don't remember reading anyone saying that it applied to all men.

 

But is it a strength? Can it not also be a weakness in men? And I doubt that it has anything to do with biology and everything to do with gender. Which suggests that we are getting the short end of the stick in the morals and values department.

I don't know why anyone would label this tendency as a strength or a weakness. And your reference to "short end of the stick" regarding morals & values is a judgement that doesn't feel appropriate.

 

What do you think are the realities (never mind percentages) that women will forgive men their INFIDELITY but men will not forgive women for the same?

There are enough studies showing that more women forgive than men. I don't care about the percentages either.

 

Do you think it's fair for men to say that the PA isn't such a big problem for women? Maybe it's that women who have a different set of values upon which they interpret the world around them are merely better at living with the complexities and contradictions that are necessary when faced with problems like infidelity.

 

I don't know if it's fair or not - but I think it's ignorant to suggest that women don't care about the sex as much as men. We're all different. However, the evidence is clear that the sex is generally a bigger problem for men than it is for women.

[zinger]

I couldn't find any, so a direct link will be greatly appreciated.

 

Im in the info gathering phase. Unfortunately - as someone rightfully posted further in this thread - he seems to have very little to loose. No wife or stable girlfriend, no permanent job. But I'll find the way. Not because I want to stop the affair - and I do not disagree with posters suggesting that he didn't betray me, my FWW did. Just because I really want to do it, I can afford it, and when I do it the thought that I could have done it but for whatever reason chose to do nothing will not be haunting me. Plus, he needs a lesson.

After that he can have her.

 

Zinger -

 

It was one of the Sofie threads. It didn't go into detail with how he did it but he was a lawyer and operated like an assassin. One day the dude was just fired from his job. His wife was boning her boss so it was probably easier than the time that you'll have.

 

At this point if you want to be destroying your wife's boyfriend you need to be in information gathering stage. She assuredly has warned him. Time is your friend. He's expecting something now and has probably prepared for it. Gather more facts.

 

That is unless you want to stop their affair through intimidation but you're getting divorced anyhow so who cares right?

[zinger]

and this is why you need an IC.

 

i have been following the thread and felt until now, my input was covered. an IC is NOT there for additional emotional support. rather they should 'refocus' you on preparing to move forward. if you instead wrote my W said it was 'over', the responses would suggest the '180'. and that is what the IC will steer you to.

 

ok, you are in the anger (very emotional) stage, we understand, so i suggest you walk slow. eventually (hopefully) you will move forward and looking back may appreciate what you didn't do. a/k/a it may feel great now but later it may not.

 

failing that, your attorney will set you straight (hint: blue state judges take dim views if a restraining order is taken against you).

 

Perhaps I'll book an appointment just in case. Thanks.

[zinger]

I have a task list... and a flowchart

 

 

This is why it's essential to reconsider no breaking No Contact and return home. You're about to get hit over the head with emotional manipulation. None of your return home, or discovery of additional information, will steer your course differently so why do it to yourself? She did this to YOU. YOU are the victim. YOU heal.

 

You're at an emotional stage now. I've been there. Go dark. Execute your plan. And I PROMISE you at some point this will not longer be a dagger to the throat. That's when you look for closure.

 

I feel you've been handling this well and I feel you're a lot like myself. I'm just saying from experience that at this point I was my own worst enemy. I'd pay a million dollars if I could go back in time and execute my plan like it was a GANTT chart, and once I was done let myself settle down.

 

Please take this in the spirit of me sharing my experiences with you, take them with the grain of salt that they assuredly deserve! None of us are exactly alike.

[zinger]

Zinger, in all of these texts and voicemails, what is she offering to do about any of this? And is she offering up any more detail that an "inappropriate emotional relationship?"

1. Offerings to do "everything" to get me back. That she'd rather face my anger forever than to loose me. Note. I have never been angry or abusive towards her.

2. "I'll explain everything " (at that point in time I was also expecting "this is not what you think" as a part of the package)

3. Word "emotional " was never used.

4. Messages are hard to understand because of sobbing and tears.

 

You (all) be the judges.

 

 

Also: no hookup websites in the history or apps on the phone found, only 3 marriage/infidelity forums (this plus 2 others) and couple of relationship and dating articles. Plus kik on her phone.

[BetrayedH]

I couldn't find any, so a direct link will be greatly appreciated.

 

Im in the info gathering phase. Unfortunately - as someone rightfully posted further in this thread - he seems to have very little to loose. No wife or stable girlfriend, no permanent job. But I'll find the way. Not because I want to stop the affair - and I do not disagree with posters suggesting that he didn't betray me, my FWW did. Just because I really want to do it, I can afford it, and when I do it the thought that I could have done it but for whatever reason chose to do nothing will not be haunting me. Plus, he needs a lesson.

After that he can have her.

 

Here's a link to one of Sofie's threads. Click on her username and statistics to find other threads. Frankly, I don't think you'll find anything that interesting about what her husband did. Nor do I think you should bother.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/426582-he-knows-about-my-affair-but-hasn-t-said-anything-update-disclosed

[eric1]

I couldn't find any, so a direct link will be greatly appreciated.

 

Im in the info gathering phase. Unfortunately - as someone rightfully posted further in this thread - he seems to have very little to loose. No wife or stable girlfriend, no permanent job. But I'll find the way. Not because I want to stop the affair - and I do not disagree with posters suggesting that he didn't betray me, my FWW did. Just because I really want to do it, I can afford it, and when I do it the thought that I could have done it but for whatever reason chose to do nothing will not be haunting me. Plus, he needs a lesson.

After that he can have her.

 

If you have the resources go nuts. I have and had the resources as well and I found dismantling the guy's life extremely pleasurable and therapeutic. I still follow up on him from time to time to make sure there isn't some havoc that I can cause in his life.

 

This may make me a petty piece of crap, but it makes me feel better and in the big picture it's a minor sin.

 

The other thing to consider is that since he has nothing to lose then he also has nothing to lose by continuing his relationship with his girlfriend, your wife. The secret is finding what they have to lose. It may take some time. It's a fun hobby.

 

My opinion probably will not be popular here. Oh well.

[eric1]

1. Offerings to do "everything" to get me back. That she'd rather face my anger forever than to loose me. Note. I have never been angry or abusive towards her.

2. "I'll explain everything " (at that point in time I was also expecting "this is not what you think" as a part of the package)

3. Word "emotional " was never used.

4. Messages are hard to understand because of sobbing and tears.

 

You (all) be the judges.

 

 

Also: no hookup websites in the history or apps on the phone found, only 3 marriage/infidelity forums (this plus 2 others) and couple of relationship and dating articles. Plus kik on her phone.

 

Incognito browsing, doing it from work, she met him somewhere, etc etc etc. She did it, it'll just be a matter of finding it, if you ever do.

 

The Kik history is in a sqlite database on the phone, you'll need to root/jailbreak to get at it, but it'll be there in all of its glory. I'd be completely shocked if it wasn't. Kik is used by people who can't afford to text, gamers and cheating spouses.

 

She may also have a burner phone.

 

All cheaters leave some trail on a mobile device somewhere.

 

If the phone was reformatted or restored from backup all the data would have been lost, I'd check her text logs to make sure that there aren't any holes in it that would suggest the time difference between when a phone was last used and restored from backups. People don't take backups every day so there WILL be lost data in there. Cross reference it with the online bill.