To bust or not to bust

[eric1]

Oh also, if you download Kik and she was silly enough to link it to he real email Kik will attempt to import all of your contacts into your Kik. It will show you what her username is on Kik.

 

That username is gold, it's usually what the cheater uses on sites like Ashley Madison or whatever (Assuming she met him online). However it will not disclose your email, so it's tough to match up. But I'm guessing since you seem to be well off that most of your friends and contacts will have had no use for Kik, so the universe will be limited.

 

When I do investigations I install a fresh version of kik on BlueStacks (an Android emulator for PC and Mac), create a fake gmai to link to that Android installation and then import your real address book there. There is literally no way to trace it back to you at that point, unless you try to contact her that is.

 

DO not install it on your real phone because she may see you as a "you friend just joined kik!" thing.

 

This is of course assuming that she has deleted kik on the phone. I'm waiting for my kids so had some time to kill so figured I'd spell it out for ya.

[zinger]

Thank you Eric and BH,

 

BH, that reading was enlightening, I wouldn't be surprised if my FWW was thinking in a similar way.

 

Eric, some of your suggestions are beyond my IT skills unfortunately (for they are good). While I have a bunch of IT guys at my disposal, I'm not sure if I can reveal my ordeal to them.

 

And by the way, discovered a missed message from the lady, who drove my FWW home that night. She's is wondering how am I going and wants to talk? Not even.sure how did she get my number?

[CarrieT]

And by the way, discovered a missed message from the lady, who drove my FWW home that night. She's is wondering how am I going and wants to talk? Not even.sure how did she get my number?

 

Ummmmm..... No.

 

She is fishing for your wife and would probably relate anything you said to her directly back.

 

Your wife probably gave her your number, in fact.

 

You've got us to talk to. Granted, we are faceless, but we feel for you and know what you are going through.

[BetrayedH]

I think you're going to run into a situation where she insists that it was non-physical. For what it's worth, as others have already said, I don't buy that since there weas hand-holding, facial caresses and such at their meeting. They clearly have crossed the boundary from talking to touching. And unless they're 12 year olds, they're not just holding hands.

 

The problem is, it's "possible" that she was breaking it off before they went there. How are you to know? I think you're following advice to let the burden of proof be on her. Instead of you trying to confirm that it wasn't physical, let her be the one to do it. She needs to present a believable story. And right now her word isn't worth two cents so she's going to need more than that.

 

And that's going to require that she disclose far more than what she's comfortable with, I'd bet. She can go ahead and produce her kik username, password, and messages. She can also tell you her usernames to LS and whatever other sites she has. She can produce a timeline of their communications, a detailed one, that you can confirm cia phone records. She can produce her emails. What? She never "joined" any of those sites? She deleted all of the messages? That only points to her guilt. I guess she's going to have to get creative.

 

The point here is that she has to embrace full transparency.

 

Where I'm not sure I am with you is expecting that she'll "get it" without you presenting this at least as some form of condition. Maybe that's ok. I just don't think it's realistic. I'm not saying you have to feed her a list of to-do items. But you may have to make it clear that she's not going to be able to just offer an "explanation" of jack-sh*t. If she wants you to believe anything, she's going to have to prove it. Because as it stands now, she's guilty of lying and breaking your marital contract.

 

My point is, I think she's going to have to be told something to that effect. Waywards don't just "get it."

 

Just my $.02 as something to consider.

[eric1]

Zinger - your PI should be able to coordinate a good IT guy. If not let me know and I'll find someone for you. (if you're in NYC I'll do it for you for a beer!)

 

Of course you may get lucky and nothing was deleted. I'm not holding my breath.

[zinger]

That is hundred percent accurate.

Yes, throughout the confrontation she was - deliberately or not - avoiding the direct admission it went physical all the way, but she has not unambiguously denied it either. Plus all "I can explain" in the messages.

No, I do not believe he was just showing her spray painting techniques and dry brushing methods. Actually the images of them together make me sick and everything I do or see triggers these images.

Yes, I will tell her this week the burden is on her. I doubt she will come up with it on her own. I'm just not going to project message the process and come up with ideas.

She needs to offer it, not I demanding it.

 

 

 

I think you're going to run into a situation where she insists that it was non-physical. For what it's worth, as others have already said, I don't buy that since there weas hand-holding, facial caresses and such at their meeting. They clearly have crossed the boundary from talking to touching. And unless they're 12 year olds, they're not just holding hands.

 

The problem is, it's "possible" that she was breaking it off before they went there. How are you to know? I think you're following advice to let the burden of proof be on her. Instead of you trying to confirm that it wasn't physical, let her be the one to do it. She needs to present a believable story. And right now her word isn't worth two cents so she's going to need more than that.

 

And that's going to require that she disclose far more than what she's comfortable with, I'd bet. She can go ahead and produce her kik username, password, and messages. She can also tell you her usernames to LS and whatever other sites she has. She can produce a timeline of their communications, a detailed one, that you can confirm cia phone records. She can produce her emails. What? She never "joined" any of those sites? She deleted all of the messages? That only points to her guilt. I guess she's going to have to get creative.

 

The point here is that she has to embrace full transparency.

 

Where I'm not sure I am with you is expecting that she'll "get it" without you presenting this at least as some form of condition. Maybe that's ok. I just don't think it's realistic. I'm not saying you have to feed her a list of to-do items. But you may have to make it clear that she's not going to be able to just offer an "explanation" of jack-sh*t. If she wants you to believe anything, she's going to have to prove it. Because as it stands now, she's guilty of lying and breaking your marital contract.

 

My point is, I think she's going to have to be told something to that effect. Waywards don't just "get it."

 

Just my $.02 as something to consider.

[66Charger]

The elephant in the room is

 

Was this your first affair?

[BetrayedH]

The elephant in the room is

 

Was this your first affair?

 

And good luck figuring that one out.

 

For a long time, I believed that the affair I discovered was my wife's first. Now, I think that's pretty unlikely. That's the trickle truth that would have never come out.

[drifter777]

Complete transparency is fine but that really is for reconciliation. You are still in discovery mode and anything she voluntarily hands over has been carefully purified. You can use it to see only what she wants you to see.

 

BH said it best - they've clearly crossed the line from talking & texting to romantic touching in public. From this point the sex math is pretty simple.

 

I'm sorry the porn movies staring you wife and OM are beginning to torture you. They are brutal. Right now you are a raw bundle of emotions and those mind movies can dominate your thoughts. As time goes by the images won't come as often but they don't go away. The quickest way to get them in check is to remain No Contact with your WW. When you don't have to see her day in and day out you eliminate the primary trigger of those horrible thoughts.

[zinger]

Sorry Eric, missed the "beer" part. Not in NYC unfortunately - would love to have a beer with you. Since this is not practical Ill go alone... the feeling of seating there alone with no wedding ring on my finger is surreal.

 

And on top of all of this coming is yet another weekend am really not looking forward to (e.g. going home).

 

 

Zinger - your PI should be able to coordinate a good IT guy. If not let me know and I'll find someone for you. (if you're in NYC I'll do it for you for a beer!)

 

Of course you may get lucky and nothing was deleted. I'm not holding my breath.

[eric1]

Listen, even if actual sex hadn't occurred it's patently clear that it was going to occur. If you were a single guy would you waste this much time on a relationship with a girlfriend who had stated "No Sexual Contact Of Any Type Ever!".

 

No.

 

I can only give you advice on what I'd do but I wouldn't be giving her any extra credit points for YOU having the ability to identify and breakup faster than her bf was able to get into her pants. This is kind of why I'm not 100% with you on the physical thing.

 

It likely wasn't a torrid physical affair. Otherwise she would have had an overnight while you were away. There are several puzzle pieces that don't line up.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

The worst thing you can do to this guy is let him have her. That's the worst thing you can do to your wife and her boyfriend, in fact.

[TobyBoy]

Listen, even if actual sex hadn't occurred it's patently clear that it was going to occur. If you were a single guy would you waste this much time on a relationship with a girlfriend who had stated "No Sexual Contact Of Any Type Ever!".

 

No.

 

I can only give you advice on what I'd do but I wouldn't be giving her any extra credit points for YOU having the ability to identify and breakup faster than her bf was able to get into her pants. This is kind of why I'm not 100% with you on the physical thing.

 

It likely wasn't a torrid physical affair. Otherwise she would have had an overnight while you were away. There are several puzzle pieces that don't line up.

It's funny you mention "puzzle". That's what every BS is left with is the missing pieces. They probably only met in public places. Never in their perspective homes. Hotel hook ups were paid in cash(explains the cash withdraws from gas stations). These are traits of a seasoned cheater. Question remains.....was she being coached on the "how to" or was she doing the coaching????

[eric1]

Kik is also a cheating device that, while extremely commonly used for that purpose, isn't something that a complete newbie will stumble upon.

 

Of course that could explain the 10-15 texts/calls with a sudden dropoff, so maybe she figured it out or was instructed.

 

 

 

 

Hey Zinger for some reason I keep thinking about this. My brain works like that... gets obsessed with figuring out a problem. When was the last time that she upgraded her phone?

[zinger]

Thanks for your comments,

 

At the moment - unfortunately - I have no time to respond individuall. Going home to sit down with FWW and have (hopefully the final) talk. Eric, if I need to (eg if I still have questions after that I'll check my home computers, smart TVs and her phone and tablet. Deliberately didn't advice her im going home.

 

Only one thing I'd like to address now - why despite good advice here I do not tend to ignore - I'm so "obsessed" with the physical aspec.

 

I love(d) my wife more than anything or anyone. Over all these years I've (we've) built a good life together. Romantic, social and financial - in that order. I was (I'd say we but it's obviously not the case now) were at the point where I really had very little to wish for.

 

I do not feel this is fair that suddenly I need to accept a set back and settle for something substantially damaged. I/we need to get back where we were. I understand there are some components of our life that are now gone forever. Well, it's her duty now to bring something back instead to fill the gaps she created.

 

Example : you had a new old house with a lot of memorabilia in it. You lost it to the fire. The memorabilia is lost forever. If your insurance company offers you a brand new bigger house you can say "ok, lost memorabilia, got new better house, I'm even". If they just offer you to restore the same old house you'll probably react differently.

 

Where I'm going with this. IIf she didn't sleep with the guy - in my mind I accept a theoretical possibility she can bring something back instead of all she'd taken. If she did (considering I was the only... partner... In her life until probably now) - I don't even see not can I imagine this possibility.

 

Apologies for a long post, just wanted to get this out before it all happens.

 

Thank you.

[CarrieT]

I'll be thinking of you, Zinger.

 

We will all be here for you and hope you return to tell us how it went and how you are holding up.

[eric1]

Cool dude. I'll check in frequently if you need anything.

 

I hear you on the physical. My advice still remains that this is still raw in your mind so physical is just more natural to focus on. The emotional is worse long term (for me). It still haunts me. I'd rather see a movie of them banging than read their love story again.

[66Charger]

Believe it or not, I am actually pulling for the wife. I pray she maintained a little of her honor

[BetrayedH]

Thanks for your comments,

 

At the moment - unfortunately - I have no time to respond individuall. Going home to sit down with FWW and have (hopefully the final) talk. Eric, if I need to (eg if I still have questions after that I'll check my home computers, smart TVs and her phone and tablet. Deliberately didn't advice her im going home.

 

Only one thing I'd like to address now - why despite good advice here I do not tend to ignore - I'm so "obsessed" with the physical aspec.

 

I love(d) my wife more than anything or anyone. Over all these years I've (we've) built a good life together. Romantic, social and financial - in that order. I was (I'd say we but it's obviously not the case now) were at the point where I really had very little to wish for.

 

I do not feel this is fair that suddenly I need to accept a set back and settle for something substantially damaged. I/we need to get back where we were. I understand there are some components of our life that are now gone forever. Well, it's her duty now to bring something back instead to fill the gaps she created.

 

Example : you had a new old house with a lot of memorabilia in it. You lost it to the fire. The memorabilia is lost forever. If your insurance company offers you a brand new bigger house you can say "ok, lost memorabilia, got new better house, I'm even". If they just offer you to restore the same old house you'll probably react differently.

 

Where I'm going with this. IIf she didn't sleep with the guy - in my mind I accept a theoretical possibility she can bring something back instead of all she'd taken. If she did (considering I was the only... partner... In her life until probably now) - I don't even see not can I imagine this possibility.

 

Apologies for a long post, just wanted to get this out before it all happens.

 

Thank you.

 

For what it's worth, I can kinda understand your logic about a physical affair being a dealbreaker for you. If it was "just" emotional, you may be able to pretty much fully reestablish a healthy emotional bond between the two of you. But what she can't do is unfu*k the other man.

 

What I might suggest is that you keep that dealbreaker entirely to yourself. If she knows that a PA is an absolute dealbreaker no matter what she does, then she'll never admit to the PA. She's already obviously already assuming that a PA is worse, thus the instant denials.

 

For me, the real dealbreaker at the end of the day was continued lying. I might be able to forgive my broken wife for an affair if she was truly remorseful and willing to do everything she could to repair the damage. What I couldn't do was have a partner in life that still had no problem lying straight to my face. That's no partner at all.

 

If you make continued lying to be the solid dealbreaker for you, perhaps you have a better chance at getting to the truth about a PA. Just something to consider. The reality is that it's tough to map out these conversations.

 

Anyway, I'm mostly writing just to wish you some luck tomorrow (I'm assuming that's when you're going home, anyway). Keep your cool. Keep your integrity. Use your head rather than your emotions.

[BetrayedH]

Believe it or not, I am actually pulling for the wife. I pray she maintained a little of her honor

 

I pray she's got proof of it.

[fellini]

M.So let's just take off the gentle sugar coating and lay it out as it seems to me you want to put it:

 

Lie about a PA being the deal breaker

Lie by declaring that lying is the deal breaker to provoke the truth.

then make your decision about her lying to try to save herself from divorce through entrapment and lies

 

Build a solid new marriage based on that. Or divorce.

 

There is another truth. These two people are just past dday and there are unconditionals on the table. In the rawness of discovery the most important thing I discovered was that certain truth need due process to come out. Now in my case my WW had no problem telling me that it was a PA. The lies were much much more profound in the details over how she got there. She invested all her energy into painting the AP as the perp, and wasted 8 months of work holding onto that story. For her the EA, and the person who did the chasing was the bigger sin.

 

Perhaps the OP is not seeing the freaking impossibility of dday: he wants the truth about a PA yesterday, but they haven't even begun the process. Before you can build a new house, you need blueprints.

 

 

You want to know the winning numbers for the lottery so that you can buy the right ticket.

 

Trickle truth ing, lying and diminishing the full truth are not things one can avoid moving forward. LS is full of stories about this. Show me one single infidelity where the WS told the BS every single truth, laid it out perfectly, held nothing back, all on dday plus one minute. The lies are out there already, the task, it seems to me is to stop the flow of lies and misdirection either working together or moving apart and calling it a day. At the end of the day, a PA was not a dealbreaker for me, but seems to be for OP

 

I agree with the poster who says why bother waiting to find out. Either she did, or she was about to have sex with the guy. You have your dealbreaker. You don't need to know the facts. But it seems to me this is going to eventually come down to orgasm dealbreaker, no penetrative not dealbreaker, fondling okay, fingers in vagina dealbreaker. I see this as a road to hell trying to get through

 

 

For what it's worth, I can kinda understand your logic about a physical affair being a dealbreaker for you. If it was "just" emotional, you may be able to pretty much fully reestablish a healthy emotional bond between the two of you. But what she can't do is unfu*k the other man.

 

What I might suggest is that you keep that dealbreaker entirely to yourself. If she knows that a PA is an absolute dealbreaker no matter what she does, then she'll never admit to the PA. She's already obviously already assuming that a PA is worse, thus the instant denials.

 

For me, the real dealbreaker at the end of the day was continued lying. I might be able to forgive my broken wife for an affair if she was truly remorseful and willing to do everything she could to repair the damage. What I couldn't do was have a partner in life that still had no problem lying straight to my face. That's no partner at all.

 

If you make continued lying to be the solid dealbreaker for you, perhaps you have a better chance at getting to the truth about a PA. Just something to consider. The reality is that it's tough to map out these conversations.

 

Anyway, I'm mostly writing just to wish you some luck tomorrow (I'm assuming that's when you're going home, anyway). Keep your cool. Keep your integrity. Use your head rather than your emotions.

Edited June 6, 2015 by fellini

[SycamoreCircle]

I agree with the poster who says why bother waiting to find out. Either she did, or she was about to have sex with the guy. You have your dealbreaker. You don't need to know the facts. But it seems to me this is going to eventually come down to orgasm dealbreaker, no penetrative not dealbreaker, fondling okay, fingers in vagina dealbreaker. I see this as a road to hell trying to get through

I'm alarmed by the encouragement OP has received to parse through this mess and try to find something salvageable. Employing tactics to wheedle the truth out of her? Folks, when it comes to that you have to start to look at the bigger picture.

 

We all can talk a tight game, including OP, in the safety of an internet forum. But when you're face to face with the person you love, with the possibility of never seeing them again, contacting them again, inquiring about them hanging in the air like death, it paralyzes you. You don't operate in real time. The words coming out of their mouth are like a gas that mingles with what is suspected and what is known. It's disorienting.

 

It's walking into a den of wolves.

[BetrayedH]

M.So let's just take off the gentle sugar coating and lay it out as it seems to me you want to put it:

 

Lie about a PA being the deal breaker

Lie by declaring that lying is the deal breaker to provoke the truth.

then make your decision about her lying to try to save herself from divorce through entrapment and lies

 

Build a solid new marriage based on that. Or divorce.

 

There is another truth. These two people are just past dday and there are unconditionals on the table. In the rawness of discovery the most important thing I discovered was that certain truth need due process to come out. Now in my case my WW had no problem telling me that it was a PA. The lies were much much more profound in the details over how she got there. She invested all her energy into painting the AP as the perp, and wasted 8 months of work holding onto that story. For her the EA, and the person who did the chasing was the bigger sin.

 

Perhaps the OP is not seeing the freaking impossibility of dday: he wants the truth about a PA yesterday, but they haven't even begun the process. Before you can build a new house, you need blueprints.

 

 

You want to know the winning numbers for the lottery so that you can buy the right ticket.

 

Trickle truth ing, lying and diminishing the full truth are not things one can avoid moving forward. LS is full of stories about this. Show me one single infidelity where the WS told the BS every single truth, laid it out perfectly, held nothing back, all on dday plus one minute. The lies are out there already, the task, it seems to me is to stop the flow of lies and misdirection either working together or moving apart and calling it a day. At the end of the day, a PA was not a dealbreaker for me, but seems to be for OP

 

I agree with the poster who says why bother waiting to find out. Either she did, or she was about to have sex with the guy. You have your dealbreaker. You don't need to know the facts. But it seems to me this is going to eventually come down to orgasm dealbreaker, no penetrative not dealbreaker, fondling okay, fingers in vagina dealbreaker. I see this as a road to hell trying to get through

 

Yes, Fellini, when infidelity is discovered, I've got no problem with lying to the wayward spouse in order to get to the truth. The wayward spouse has broken the marital contract. They've betrayed their partner.

 

It's not my first recommendation. My first recommendation is to file for divorce and allow the divorce papers to speak for you. When infidelity is discovered, the default position should be that the deal is broken, by the wayward's choice. There's not even a need for a confrontation. Infidelity is an unacceptable behavior in a marriage and I recommend that the betrayed spouse not accept it.

 

Is that to say that reconciliations cannot happen? No. In fact, I pretty rarely make definitive statements about whether people should divorce or reconcile. Fortunately, divorces take time. I think the BS should file, do the 180 and then they can wait and see what happens. If the wayward shows true remorse (which involves a lot of commitment/actions) to the extent that the BS thinks they might be able to forgive, then I'm cool with halting the proceedings. I think that's a healthy way to do it. And I think zinger is actually doing remarkably well toward that end.

 

But I also believe, as you say, that continued lies are pretty predictable. I think these need to be handled from a position of strength as well. I think it starts by having the facts. And since the wayward is no longer my life partner but has chosen to be a betrayer of our contract, I've got no problem treating them as an adversary. I think they have to be shown that their lies are no longer going to work. They will not get to keep their marriage and their secrets at the same time. That is over. We will no longer be fooled. We will protect oursleves. The spouse no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. We'll investigate on our own and know the truth.

 

Is my goal to "Build a solid marriage based upon that?" No.

 

I think far too many BSs are desperate to find something salvageable and to based their decisions on trying to make that scenario unfold. And in the process, they do themselves a major disservice. They accept unacceptable behavior. It disrespects the BS when they've been disrespected enough already. Worse yet, it sends a message of weakness to the wayward, who then routinely continues to disrespect the BS. Frankly, I think that showing that weakness - that willingness to tolerate further disrespect - further damages the potential for reconciliation.

 

I think if a BS wants to reconcile, their path to do so is very similar to the path toward divorce. You file. You 180. And you establish that dealbreakers behaviors will be discovered and will be met with an appropriate response. I am bit of a pragmatist when it comes to the discovery part. I expect a liar to lie. I will not play fair with someone who is known to be cheating.

 

But I kinda like zinger's approach. She's been caught. The default is to divorce. She will not be led toward true remorse. She can find in on her own or she can face an inevitable divorce. He really doesn't have to lie at all. He can just sit back and see what she does. Excellent.

 

But I suspect that his resolve will weaken under her pleas and minimizing. Being in the same house, they're going to talk. His emotions and his love for his wife will likely weigh on him. And if he doesn't have facts, he's going to be vulnerable to the predictable trickle-truthing.

[eric1]

 

But I kinda like zinger's approach. She's been caught. The default is to divorce. She will not be led toward true remorse. She can find in on her own or she can face an inevitable divorce. He really doesn't have to lie at all. He can just sit back and see what she does. Excellent.

 

But I suspect that his resolve will weaken under her pleas and minimizing. Being in the same house, they're going to talk. His emotions and his love for his wife will likely weigh on him. And if he doesn't have facts, he's going to be vulnerable to the predictable trickle-truthing.

 

That's one of the big reasons I've felt that it was important that he minimizes the finality of a physical affair in his mind. The physical affair was there, and if by some god's miracle it wasn't it wasn't because his wife wasn't trying to make it happen, it's because zinger caught them first. At that point really what's the difference in a material sense?

 

But in a bigger picture I see a lot of him in me. I'd also be finding "things" that would be my breaking point. In retrospect all that having those "things" allowed me to do was be dishonest with myself and continually move the goalposts. It was always something else.

 

One day I realized - my wife went looking for a relationship outside of marriage, was giving her heart to this guy and if I didn't catch them who knows what would happen. My situation is similar to his in that it was an EA which only came out as a PA after I kicked her out after a few weeks of spinning my wheels emotionally.

 

When I finally learned of the PA it wasn't like this big firework went off. It was more of a shrub and a "hmph, guess my gut was right" feeling. And I had the same focus on "things" as well.

 

Ultimately I just figured I would also associate her with loving someone else while committed to me, and that is not someone I wanted to be growing old with on the front porch together. I was only 33 at the time, I still had over half my life to find that person (and I did - I have two boys with my new wife. I couldn't be happier)

[fellini]

Yes, Fellini, when infidelity is discovered, I've got no problem with lying to the wayward spouse in order to get to the truth.

 

Right. But then you say a waywards lying is a dealbreaker.

 

If you have to lie to get at a truth (I. E. Confirm suspicions), how can lying be a dealbreaker for you if you seek justifications in order to lie to you spouse?

 

So would it be okay to sit your spouse down, suspecting an affair, and tell her you want to confess you have been cheating on her say for months. Invent everything, in order to get her to forgive you for a false A just to get her to admit her own?

 

You would sit a woman you have shared a life with, with whom you have never in your 15 years of marriage ever told an untruth, and you could say to this woman, "look, you must tell me the truth as hard as it is to tell me, or I will divorce you. I will stay with you only because you can tell me the truth about what happened. Nothing else matters."

 

So she believes you and tells you she slept with another man, and that is the truth.

 

And you divorce her telling her the truth was not the real dealbreaker, it was the sex.

 

All I can say is I would have walked away from my marriage before I got to the words "You would sit". I do not ever want to be that man, nor pretend I'm okay with such manipulation of someone I supposedly cherished. Not because of what she has done, but because of what I have become.