To bust or not to bust

[Morbius]

Goddamn it, typed a long response and then pressed the wrong button. Starting again...

 

 

That is correct Carrie, I returned home. Have a lot of new information that has been made available to me via talks with FWW and my own investigations. Nothing game changing - e.g. that would require me to stop the divorce (seeing family lawyer this week anyway) or going completely dark and nuclear.

I'll have to trickle feed it as it is long and all my family issues and work (which I use as a way to distract myself) take more time than I thought it would. Also used sleeping pills 1st time in my life - not a pleasant experience on top of everything else.

Also, a lot of great feedback here which took me some time to read. Before I get to the business I'd like to thank all of you, and especially:

Carrie - for checking on me.

Merrmeade - for finding time to post a very useful and balanced advice while going through a lot (sorry I looked at our thread).

Eric - for sharing the story and all the forensic info (it worked). Eric - if I way - have you heard from or about your ex after you divorced?

Alivegaian - for reminding me about that conversation.

BetrayedH - for all comments especially the "un$$#%ck the other man" one.

..and everyone else.

Fellini - I value your input but I'm afraid you'll have to "uncomplicate" it for me, not sure if I understand it (I'm a KISS person). In any case, from that point in my life I'm not looking to "build a solid marriage" - as far as I'm concerned I have already done that so the ball is clearly in the other court.

Thanks again and the trickle feed is about to start.

 

You are doing a tough but remarkable job zinger. Keeping it simple(ignoring the stupid) is a very smart way to think, and act. Be careful with the medication, and stay the course.

Do it your way and in your time frame, and above all, keep trusting your gut...

 

I'm rooting for you too.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Morbius

[merrmeade]

Goddamn it, typed a long response and then pressed the wrong button. Starting again...

fyi - Try one or more of these:

 

1 - Use TABs to open new pages instead of browser button. Right-click on link (Post Reply, Quote, poster name, etc); select "Open in new tab."

 

2 - While composing, regularly copy what you've written.

 

3 - If a reply takes too long and you get the "refresh" message after hitting Submit, don't do it! Don't refresh! Refreshing the page goes back to the original "Reply to Thread" box & what you wrote is gone.

Instead, hit the browser back button. You'll get back to your post, but you still can't submit. Instead, copy the post, get back to the thread, click Post Reply, paste & submit.

 

5 - Compose in a separate application, copy/paste in the Post Reply box.

[zinger]

Thanks,

 

I was more interested in your ex reaction to divorce and her life after the divorce - like has she happily moved on and realised that was the lifestyle she wanted, or married the OM, etc. Sorry if rubbing salt here.

 

As for "forensic " bit - in my next response.

 

 

Hi Zinger,

 

Sleeping pills do bad things to me too. As a scaled down version I use Advil PM from time to time and they seem to not turn me into a Pink Floyd video.

 

I no longer speak with my ex-wife. I'm curious of course. She wasn't that bad after we broke up, nothing malicious. However every time I'd see her pop up in Facebook or I would hear from her I would get....less happy I guess? Like it wouldn't ruin my day but it just was never a positive thing. So I did a slow fade then unfriend her.

 

After I caught her a second time it was clear that I'd be dead before I stuck with her which in retrospect made things easier. It got all the games out of the way so by the end we were just two people who used to be married.

 

Good deal on the forensics, let me know if I can be of any more help. Do check in here, as weird and stalker-y as it sonds I find myself checking in on this thread a few times a day - I'm rooting for you man!!

[zinger]

5 - Compose in a separate application, copy/paste in the Post Reply box.

 

Thanks for the hints. Believe me or not, that is how I managed to recover some of the messages. Basically she used your method number 5 when using Kik or Web mail. She was deleting the files after pasting them, but in a couple of cases too late and they have been picked up by backup.. My IT guys set it up some time ago so everything gets backup each 2 days to the cloud and my home network server. Some were still on the phone.

 

The summary is that I didn't have a proof it went physical (for some reason I expected some graphical stuff - I'm irrational I guess) nor there were any "I love you"'s from her side ( plenty references to his I love you 's but never like " please stop it, it's inappropriate ".

 

Plenty of" feelings " so it smells somewhat " spiritual " to me. But can it be called " inappropriate emotional involvement " and not an EA? To the same degree as WWII can be called a " regional conflict between armed groups of men ".

 

So I have this plus some more surveillance info plus couple of hours of hardest talks I ever had with someone so close to me...

[eric1]

Thanks,

 

I was more interested in your ex reaction to divorce and her life after the divorce - like has she happily moved on and realised that was the lifestyle she wanted, or married the OM, etc. Sorry if rubbing salt here.

 

As for "forensic " bit - in my next response.

 

 

 

The embarrassing truth?

 

The guy from the PA wasn't obviously in the picture long term due to the distance. The EA guy I got a bit pissed at and did a lot in my power to 'claim my territory'. So while I think she was broken up about the divorce I gave her some pretty good bullet points to look at the bright side of not being with me.

 

In a vacuum I probably did her a favor.

 

I honestly don't know how she handled it other than what I observed. i did not have a support network like exists here. I'm the type of guy who will move on pretty quickly. If I'm losing at a video game the second I realize it I hit reset type of guy. Once I got divorced in my mind I frankly got a bit bored of having been through that for 3+ months so just shut everything out.

 

We don't talk now but do have mutual friends. She is not remarried. She's 39 now. she moved about an hour away. I'll probably never see her again and that doesn't make me feel anything, which is both sad and good I guess?

[No Limit]

She is not remarried. She's 39 now.

 

Then it is very likely that she's the AP/OW in some other relationships with other idiots.

There is no bright side being without you, you were the cake.

[eric1]

She could be married to Brad Pitt for all I care.

 

I have a wife who when I go to bed at night can have her lay her head on my chest and I don't have to have....**** gnaw at me... like it did after I discovered her first affair. I realize now that I'm not the reconciling type.

 

When I think about it I have the sunk fallacy stress sometimes like "how could I waste so many years!" but in reality I know that 99.99999% of my other waking moments took that experience and now I don't take anything for granted and love life for every moment. It taught me that my default condition wasn't happiness, that happiness was something that I needed to work towards.

 

She could be hit by a car tomorrow or win the lottery and I'd feel the same. Nothing.

 

Anyhow, enough about me

[zinger]

Quick update (having trouble catching up with the new information as I'm discovering it all piece by piece).

1) I know where OM is going to work as a more or less permanent job (signage company) and I'm going to pay him a surprise workplace visit. Tomorrow or next day depending on my lawyer and IC (sceptical but booked just in case add I have nothing to loose there) appointments.

2) The preliminary assessment done by my BAU lawyers indicates that my case hopefully won't be complicated. And economically my FWW will be ok, her next car won't be the Mercedes AMG but she will not struggle to survive. So my concious is clear.

3) The watches was Tag Heuer something whatever it was. She claims it was a farewell gift (I know, I know)

4) My own dammit family... Not only they think I should forgive and forget, they just assume I'm already doing it ("you will be a fool if you let it overcome you and ruin your prefect marriage". So not a lot of support from that side. So do the only friend I told - why?

5) I know how they met (still have to verify of course). Not via dating site, my FWW has been into arts (I'm bored to death with it, perhaps it was the issue) and that's how they met and started talking. So she was "helping him find his place in life and self in painting" and he felt in love and she got emotional. Right.

6) The sites she visited was to understand if she's having an affair and how to cut it.

 

7) She's a mess, health deteriorated, and while I'm effectively at 180 as you call it, I'm concerned. She's a ghost. As far as I can see this is not a play.

Clearly struggling to find a way to break the ice and each time I say what I think without suggesting anything specific sends her back down and deep. What can I suggest? Cook my favorite dinner won't cut it.

 

Please help. Thanks

[eric1]

She is still giving you bull**** about the nature of their affair ('finding himself' lol) and lying about the watch being a going away gift.

 

She did it because affairs are exciting and she liked the attention.

 

Unfortunately what you're seeing is someone who is remorseful for getting caught but truly doesn't give a flying poop about what she did or making you whole. SHE turned her entire life upside down and of course is going through significant mental anguish over it. Consequences suck don't they?

[zinger]

1. I Agree

2. I agree

3. You are most likely correct... Is there any way to tell the difference (regret vs. remorse). And I do not think she could fake all the physical symptoms. I'll call a doctor most probably

 

Of course swears an everything dear that it didn't go past hand holding. Torn between believing and not.

 

Thanks BTW

 

She is still giving you bull**** about the nature of their affair ('finding himself' lol) and lying about the watch being a going away gift.

She did it because affairs are exciting and she liked the attention.

 

Unfortunately what you're seeing is someone who is remorseful for getting caught but truly doesn't give a flying poop about what she did or making you whole. SHE turned her entire life upside down and of course is going through significant mental anguish over it. Consequences suck don't they?

[eric1]

In my experience with friends and family they quickly look at you and any spouse as a unit. My own mom still doesn't understand why we didn't work things out.

 

I think parents want to see their kids lead storybook lives and don't have a gut feel for the underpinnings of your marriage. Kind of like you understand why your mom and dad got married but you can't comprehend them having sex.

 

Either way, I do not consider them impartial advisors. We aren't either, but anonymity does offer a unique third party perspective.

[eric1]

1. I Agree

2. I agree

3. You are most likely correct... Is there any way to tell the difference (regret vs. remorse). And I do not think she could fake all the physical symptoms. I'll call a doctor most probably

 

Of course swears an everything dear that it didn't go past hand holding. Torn between believing and not.

 

Thanks BTW

 

 

BTW assuming you're in North America we have the same messed up sleep schedules huh.

 

I read the Chump Lady blog a few years back and it resonated with me about remorse versus reconciliation. The reader's digest is that reconciliation is a gift you have the option of giving her and can take away at any time. What she does with this gift is completely up to her and its counter productive for you to lead her in any way. That doesn't mean you aren't honest with what you expect out of her. Surviving Infidelity also has a good 'healing library'

 

It all comes down to you man. I'm honest with you - my experience clouds my judgement that I KNOW I'd not survive long term with a spouse who cheated on me. It's like a switch in my head. Not everyone is like that, checked out the dude who was married for 31 years thread (it should be on the front page here). He reconciled and seems content with his decision

 

I will say this, she could be lying because it goes deeper (it probably does) and she could be lying because she feels additional facts will cement your decision (they may, but I'm sure you can see her dilemma). But she's still lying and from my experience I would keep it simple - "I do not believe I am receiving the whole truth and that is not acceptable to me". That's it. You've communicated what's expected of her, she's aware of the consequences and you've stood up for yourself.

 

My next suggestion is somewhat controversial but I believe it works. Tell her in person that you're heading over to your lawyers who will in turn head over to the signage company. Her boyfriend knew she was married and that you intend to pursue him in every legal manner possible, starting with your lawyer providing evidence to his workplace which will ruin his employment and significantly hamper future employment possibilities. Watch her eyes when you tell her this. If you get fear/defense/anger in her eyes then you know the deal. If you get apathy then reconciliation is more likely. It's a cruel tactic but on the cruel scale you're throwing firecrackers at her nuclear bomb. Her words will not match her eyes.

[zinger]

Not in North America but my good night sleep I have enjoyed all these years just kissed me goodbye. Jet lag while staying home.

 

I'll check these sites thanks.

 

Your last suggestion - will do exactly that.

A) tell her and watch the reaction

B) watch if she contacts him

C) pay him a visit

 

Also : wrt monitoring and forensics. Lesson to learn : never try to go on places in one of those new expensive cars that record and report every thing you do and every place you go!

 

 

BTW assuming you're in North America we have the same messed up sleep schedules huh.

 

I read the Chump Lady blog a few years back and it resonated with me about remorse versus reconciliation. The reader's digest is that reconciliation is a gift you have the option of giving her and can take away at any time. What she does with this gift is completely up to her and its counter productive for you to lead her in any way. That doesn't mean you aren't honest with what you expect out of her. Surviving Infidelity also has a good 'healing library'

 

It all comes down to you man. I'm honest with you - my experience clouds my judgement that I KNOW I'd not survive long term with a spouse who cheated on me. It's like a switch in my head. Not everyone is like that, checked out the dude who was married for 31 years thread (it should be on the front page here). He reconciled and seems content with his decision

 

I will say this, she could be lying because it goes deeper (it probably does) and she could be lying because she feels additional facts will cement your decision (they may, but I'm sure you can see her dilemma). But she's still lying and from my experience I would keep it simple - "I do not believe I am receiving the whole truth and that is not acceptable to me". That's it. You've communicated what's expected of her, she's aware of the consequences and you've stood up for yourself.

 

My next suggestion is somewhat controversial but I believe it works. Tell her in person that you're heading over to your lawyers who will in turn head over to the signage company. Her boyfriend knew she was married and that you intend to pursue him in every legal manner possible, starting with your lawyer providing evidence to his workplace which will ruin his employment and significantly hamper future employment possibilities. Watch her eyes when you tell her this. If you get fear/defense/anger in her eyes then you know the deal. If you get apathy then reconciliation is more likely. It's a cruel tactic but on the cruel scale you're throwing firecrackers at her nuclear bomb. Her words will not match her eyes.

Edited June 10, 2015 by zinger

[No Limit]

Don't worry, your family will come around in time. Of course not the same situation but when I was treated terribly by my now ex-best friend (we had been best friends for 2 years, bonded like sisters) she called nonstop and I'd ignore them all. My mom even got furious at me once, accused me of being heartless. It was only later when she saw her once on the street that she saw my course of action was right.

 

As for her bad state - she brought this on yourself. For all she cared this could have been you, being lost in despair and sorrow while she's having a fun night with OM.

[zinger]

I understand. My family always adored her. I have probably mentioned this before but when I was young I've had enough of their pride and purity and cut the ties. Was considered a black sheep and enfant terrible for a while. Was doing stupid things, met her, she turned me around, so my family became of their crown jewels. They don't want to lose it.

 

 

 

Don't worry, your family will come around in time. Of course not the same situation but when I was treated terribly by my now ex-best friend (we had been best friends for 2 years, bonded like sisters) she called nonstop and I'd ignore them all. My mom even got furious at me once, accused me of being heartless. It was only later when she saw her once on the street that she saw my course of action was right.

 

As for her bad state - she brought this on yourself. For all she cared this could have been you, being lost in despair and sorrow while she's having a fun night with OM.

[Cephalopod]

1. I Agree

2. I agree

3. You are most likely correct... Is there any way to tell the difference (regret vs. remorse). And I do not think she could fake all the physical symptoms. I'll call a doctor most probably

 

Of course swears an everything dear that it didn't go past hand holding. Torn between believing and not.

 

Thanks BTW

 

If it were remorse, she would be moving heaven and earth to help YOU with YOUR pain and anguish.

 

She just regrets getting caught. Ghost? Well tell the ghost to float up the attic and haunt someone else. You need to bail.

[aliveagain]

The look in her eyes and her reaction when she saw you in the car park told you just about everything you needed to know. An innocent spouse doesn't run away, an innocent spouse would have come and talked to you. How can a hidden meeting with a man that included holding hands in a public place be innocent? You know for a fact that she acted on the opportunity and that she probably acted on other opportunities with him because who gives someone an expensive watch they don't know well? An article of jewellery is more personal than a few tubes of paint or canvases.

 

My recommendation would be that she agree to a polygraph test by the best tester in your region. Reconciliation is a possibility but will be subject to the results of the test. Her actions don't match the words coming out of her mouth and you need to know your starting a new foundation knowing the truth. Her actions have caused you to doubt her and she will have to prove to you that she is worthy of your trust again. The other condition should be a post nuptial agreement, an agreement where she agrees to give you most of the assets in the marriage if you divorce because of a new infidelity. It is up to her to make you feel comfortable and safe being married to her and if she is unwilling to do that than end it because you have enough proof to doubt her..

[Cephalopod]

I understand. My family always adored her. I have probably mentioned this before but when I was young I've had enough of their pride and purity and cut the ties. Was considered a black sheep and enfant terrible for a while. Was doing stupid things, met her, she turned me around, so my family became of their crown jewels. They don't want to lose it.

 

I too was the black sheep of my family because I never bought into their hyper-religious dogma growing up. I always steered my own path and they resented me for it.

 

My parents would have had me stay in my horrible marriage with my ex-wife while she ran around behind my back spreading her legs for every man who would give her coke and tell her she was pretty.

 

I separated from my family years ago, and I am so glad I did. They are a toxic mess of religious zealots, and they would have dragged me into their rendition of pious hell if I had let them. Did it hurt to disown them? Yes. Do I miss them? Sometimes. Will I ever reconcile with them? Only if they got serious counseling and showed me they were ready to have healthy, non-judgmental relationships with me and my daughter. Otherwise, I choose not to have psycho people in my life, doing everything they can to damage me. I have one life to live and it is going to be a happy one.

 

And by the way...your WW did not turn you around. You turned yourself around! Don't give her the credit. She has demonstrated she does not have the strength of character to turn anyone around. You are lying to yourself when you tell yourself that nonsense.

[Cephalopod]

A Tag Hauer? A Tag?

 

That is no little gift my friend! She was over her heels in love with this guy and totally detached from you!

 

Make sure that you list the price of the watch in the divorce agreement and make sure that cost comes out of her share. In fact all the monies she spent on her affair should be debited from her share.

[SycamoreCircle]

So she was "helping him find his place in life and self in painting"

I guess that's a euphemism for unzipping his pants.

[TobyBoy]

There's much she's not telling you.

How did the affair blossom?

Who pursued whom?

What else did she give him? Cash? How much did she give him?

Ask her straight out if she's in love with the OM and if she ever told him that?

How often did they communicate? Daily?

Does her employer know that she took company time to meet her lover?

Who knew about her affair? Her friend?

Did she sext with the OM?

Sent him naughty pictures?

Plan a future with him?

[velvette]

A Tag Hauer? A Tag?

 

That is no little gift my friend! She was over her heels in love with this guy and totally detached from you!

 

Make sure that you list the price of the watch in the divorce agreement and make sure that cost comes out of her share. In fact all the monies she spent on her affair should be debited from her share.

 

Those watches are 2,000 to 6,000 US Dollars. Pretty pricey farewell gift.

 

 

I have always wondered if they were having sex why they were meeting in the food court at the mall where presumably anyone she knew could have wandered by. Also, why were they wasting time at the mall if they could have been at his place or a hotel.

 

 

Perhaps they just hadn't gotten to sex yet, hence why they were meeting in public? Maybe she fancied herself some kind of muse to the artist, sugar mama?

 

 

Seems a polygraph is the only way to get the truth, unless OM fesses up. But, my guess is they have been in touch some way and gotten their stories straight.

[italianjob]

A Tag Heuer? It's like you buying an expensive ring for a girl...

 

1. It's highly unlikely this relationship was platonic, unless you two are so rich that you and your wife treat all your friends to very expensive gifts...

 

2. It's not a farewell gift, it's a love token, quite obviously...

[drifter777]

This thing is playing out very predictably - I've seen it dozens of times. On one hand you talk tough and call lawyers and on the other hand you are starting to believe her story. You want to divorce a lousy cheater but maybe it was all a misunderstanding. Maybe she is telling the truth. Your gut feeling is wrong. Her public display of affection was a one-time thing and the watch really was a goodbye present. One thing is sure: she will take the truth to her grave. She will only admit to things you have hard proof for - and even then she will lie and minimize. Like if you find a hotel bill she will swear they only talked. If you can prove they had sex she will swear it was only that one time. And the sex was bad - he has a small, limp penis.

 

Look - you busted her. You saw things with your own eyes. She is now terrified that you are going to divorce her and her entire focus is on determining what she has to do to make you change your mind. Lying about the sex is her number one priority because she's correctly determined that's the key for you.

 

Your friend says you should give her another chance because its hard for him to accept such a dramatic change. This would effect his view of the world and that's scary to people. This is pretty much the same for your parents. This is why I suggested a counselor - they are trained to remove themselves from the equation.

 

She's an emotional mess because her worst fears are coming true. She wanted a lover on the side, not a divorce. This is the bottom line - is this ok with you?

[TobyBoy]

Is it possible that what your WW is saying is the truth? That nothing physical happened? Of course!!

 

But fact remains. She got emotionally involved. She hid this from you. She withdrew from you. She lied to you. She broke her vows.

 

To some, a PA is a dealbreaker and a EA is not. I myself fall in to this category. My FWW(former wayward wife) had a yearlong EA.

 

If you haven't already, find out when she purchased the watch and how. Was it after your talk before your trip? After you came back early from said work trip?

 

This matters a lot, because this will determine if it was a "parting gift" or a "token of love".