To bust or not to bust

[whichwayisup]

1. I Agree

2. I agree

3. You are most likely correct... Is there any way to tell the difference (regret vs. remorse). And I do not think she could fake all the physical symptoms. I'll call a doctor most probably

 

Of course swears an everything dear that it didn't go past hand holding. Torn between believing and not.

 

Thanks BTW

 

Let her actions show you. Remorseful - tears aren't good enough. It's follow through and changes she has to prove to you that she can be trustworthy again. (IF you decide she's worthy of a second chance) She seeks counseling, she completely cuts this guy out of her life, no contact. She is completely honest with you, even if it hurts to hear. She fixes herself and affair proofs herself, setting boundaries and lines she will not cross ever again with ANY man.

 

She is now having the reality check, losing everything and of course she's ill over what she's done, time will tell if she is telling the truth about the A (you can follow up when you talk to the OM, but don't let her know that you're going to do that) and how far she went with him. Either way, the damage has been done, betrayal is betrayal and pain is pain.

[Spectre]

Women who love and respect their husbands do not become emotionally involved with other men. WHY would you consider staying with such a person? Don't you feel you deserve better? That you deserve someone who loves you?

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

3) The watches was Tag Heuer something whatever it was. She claims it was a farewell gift (I know, I know)

A TAG. Heuer was a spectactular watchmaker, but less so when TAG bought them up.

 

They're not my taste, but they're solid watches. Nothing more than that. They're not on the same tier as an Omega, for example. And nowhere near the same neighborhood as a Rolex. And they are not in the same state as a Cartier.

 

TAG focused more on stylish designs and it worked for them, a bit, but they lost some cred with many in the WIS community. I'd never buy one. And if someone gave me one as a gift, I'd be gracious and grateful, but figured they didn't know much about watches or my taste in watches.

 

The most inexpensive men's TAGs retail at $ 1200, but many are in the $ 2,000 to $3,000 price range, and some are much more expensive. They're not really worth it, in my opinion.

 

Anyway, I offer this to put the gift in context. It's a major purchase for most people. It's certainly an over the top parting gift. I've been in many romantic relationships and was never given a gift anywhere close to that amount, particularly as a parting gift (I never got one of those from a woman, now that I think of it).

 

I'd ask her if this is her idea of a parting gift for a man she's emotionally attached to, when did you spend at least as much for a watch for me, the guy she's with and ostensibly still wants to be with?

 

It's a raw question, sorry. But it's a fair one. It really shows where you stand in her mind.

 

Good luck, bro. I still say drop her. Her health concerns are her business, not your problem anymore.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

A Tag Hauer? A Tag?

 

That is no little gift my friend! She was over her heels in love with this guy and totally detached from you!

 

Make sure that you list the price of the watch in the divorce agreement and make sure that cost comes out of her share. In fact all the monies she spent on her affair should be debited from her share.

An inexpensive TAG is over $ 1,000, and more likely $2k to $3k. Indeed, this isn't a "little gift."

 

It's the WIS in me, but a TAG leaves me cold. If I got one, I'd think the giver just didn't know me well. Vuglar, really. But I'd still be thankful and appreciative, or course. I'm not a gavone.

 

But really, why not just get me a Seiko...

[BetrayedH]

Where is the proof that she was breaking it off? Where's the proof that it was only emotional and not physical? Where are the messages between them?

 

The burden of proof is not on you, my friend.

[drifter777]

An inexpensive TAG is over $ 1,000, and more likely $2k to $3k. Indeed, this isn't a "little gift."

 

It's the WIS in me, but a TAG leaves me cold. If I got one, I'd think the giver just didn't know me well. Vuglar, really. But I'd still be thankful and appreciative, or course. I'm not a gavone.

 

But really, why not just get me a Seiko...

 

 

It's all in the model. A Carrera 1887 is upwards of $15,000 and the Monaco is over $75,000. Yes, you can get one for about $1000 too.

[drifter777]

Where is the proof that she was breaking it off? Where's the proof that it was only emotional and not physical? Where are the messages between them?

 

The burden of proof is not on you, my friend.

Remember where you were on D-day. You wanted desperately to believe no more than you already knew. You were in a state of stunned shock. OP is no different and it will be difficult to convince him to stay rational and logical when his whole emotional being is screaming at him to smooth things over and get his old life back. I know this, you know this but when it's happening to you it's easy (denial) to say to yourself "yeah, but this is different".

 

zinger: BH and I are really not rooting for any particular outcome. We are rooting that you not be hoodwinked by your emotions and give your wife false forgiveness and hope that time will heal your wound. Most of us here at LS know that this is the worst possible path to take yet is often the road MOST traveled. We will help you recognize the signs of a lying, minimizing wife if that in fact is what you have. You won't want to believe us because, well, you are in denial and smoothing it all over is so tempting. So if it happens I ask you to listen to us and seriously consider that we just might be right about some of these things.

 

 

Oh - and you won't think your in denial either. Remember that denial is our minds way of coping with trauma. It's not necessarily saying to yourself "no, this didn't happen" it much more insidious than that. It's saying to yourself "well, this all happened but it isn't all that bad. I'll get over this in time". Facing reality - seeing things for what they are - is the hardest part of healing.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

It's all in the model. A Carrera 1887 is upwards of $15,000 and the Monaco is over $75,000. Yes, you can get one for about $1000 too.

Yes, but I tried to keep my analysis close to the ground, which is why I discussed the $1,200-$3,000 price point, which is a lot of money, really.

[drifter777]

Yes, but I tried to keep my analysis close to the ground, which is why I discussed the $1,200-$3,000 price point, which is a lot of money, really.

Understood.

[drifter777]

This one really has me going today. The more I think about the public display of affection the more I'm convinced there is a hell of a lot more to this than OP knows. Also, his shattered wife isn't denying the physical stuff with the voracity I would expect. Yes, he caught her in an "inappropriate relationship" but why isn't she screaming at him that nothing sexual ever happened. Why isn't she volunteering to take a lie detector test? Or bringing the OM over to support as much of her story as possible. Now, many of you will think that bringing the OM over isn't rational but if she is truly innocent she would be screaming at the top of her longs that it was just a friendship that got too cozy so she shut him down and gave him a watch for his trouble? If she hadn't had sex with OM I think bringing him into it would be a good idea and, if done right away, might have persuaded OP to give her story a little more weight. Really, it would be the best way to at least begin convincing him of the truth.

 

Innocent people - especially a married man/woman accused of cheating - freak out at the mention of their guilt. Even if the EA part of this would have spelled doom for the marriage, she didn't know that. Besides, there was no denying that part of it. It would be the physical stuff that would likely be the marriage killer so disproving that as soon as humanly possible would be paramount to her. Yet she did little, if anything, to address that other than simply denying it. If I was in her shoes I would move heaven and earth to prove to my wife that I didn't have sex with OW. I would drag her to my wife in order to verify the truth. Wouldn't you?

Edited June 10, 2015 by drifter777

[RightThere]

Innocent people - especially a married man/woman accused of cheating - freak out at the mention of their guilt.

 

In fairness, I've found guilty people accused of cheating often react with more emotion than innocent people because:

1) They think the more over the top their reaction is, the more innocent they'll appear and

2) They still have their two separate worlds in their head where "cheating wife" cannot exist with " faithful wife" so when "faithful wife" is accused of cheating, they actually believe it's not them, it's that person in the other affairyland world.

 

But I totally agree this situation still has a lot of skeletons in the closet yet to be discovered.

[drifter777]

In fairness, I've found guilty people accused of cheating often react with more emotion than innocent people because:

1) They think the more over the top their reaction is, the more innocent they'll appear and

2) They still have their two separate worlds in their head where "cheating wife" cannot exist with " faithful wife" so when "faithful wife" is accused of cheating, they actually believe it's not them, it's that person in the other affairyland world.

 

But I totally agree this situation still has a lot of skeletons in the closet yet to be discovered.

We all know people react differently to the same kind of things. I just mentally tried the situation on for size and I know I would freak out at being accused of such a horrible crime if I were innocent. I think if I was guilty I would hang my head in shame and beg for forgiveness. Thing is, if I was a cheater I might have some devious plan already worked out with OW for just such a situation so who the hell knows. I just don't think a wife accused of boffing some OM when they didn't would not rest until they proved it wasn't true.

[eric1]

I'm with you drifter. Of course it's great to help zinger but there is something going on here which is firing off the same 'gut feeling' that most of us had. Everything seems a bit...like a child's made-up lie is a good description? No enough specific details mixed with some leaps of logic that just don't make sense.

 

Like she's said it was an inappropriate relationship. I get it. The story as presented is her with the proverbial starving artist and the ball was rolling and she just didn't stop it...except she randomly did for no concrete reason. Like if she really was ending it her reaction to Zinger coming home early/seeing her at the mall isn't consistent. If her story is correct then why is she a ghastly shade of white? I understand it's her marriage at play, but people have *some* fight in them. It's almost like she has given up because she thinks if she fights additional items will come out. If it really was this type of semi-weird teacher/muse thing, after physically deteriating she at some point would get...angry?...at being pressed so hard it was a torrid affair. How she was more resigned to the outcome rather than fighting specifics with solid proof is weird. ....... Its the premeditated aspect of this. She planned this so carefully, time away from the boss, squirrelling away gas station money for an expensive watch - it's just such a damn time commitment to culminate in a...final farewell at a damn mall?

 

Sorry for the weird brain dump. I pride myself on being logical. Perhaps the illogical nature of this is what is driving me on this one. Almost nothing is adding up here.

 

It's why I'm a EA is worse than PA guy. I can at least understand the biological functions which feed into the horrible decision to cheat physically in one's spouse. With an EA like this isn't a complex and conscientious committal to another person, that doesn't happen with a hard penis and willing vagina. It takes some really intentional moves to get from A to Z.

[zinger]

Thanks, a lot of great posts and useful info... and some were so spot on it made me wondering if any of you managed to sneak into my house.

 

I refer specifically (but not exclusively) to the poster (apologies I'll have to read back to remember the name and like the post) who called on my FWW attempts to avoid clear definitions and terms for hey behaviour and lack of "fire" in refuting the sex (paraphrasing).

 

Before I start responding to these points, may I please post a quick update. #1 had happened, told her I'm going after the OM. She didn't show any sign of being worrie, the only thing she said was that "she don't care about him, she wished be doesn't exist and though she had no right to ask me anything, she would ask me only not to get into trouble myself". Means I should do it legally not via physical confrontation.

 

#2 is in progress.

[eric1]

What are you feeling at this point. I mean deep down outside of executing the plan?

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

Before I start responding to these points, may I please post a quick update. #1 had happened, told her I'm going after the OM. She didn't show any sign of being worrie, the only thing she said was that "she don't care about him, she wished be doesn't exist and though she had no right to ask me anything, she would ask me only not to get into trouble myself". Means I should do it legally not via physical confrontation.

 

#2 is in progress.

Zinger, just remember, when it comes to what she is saying, she will say anything to preserve her status quo at this point. Anything she says is suspect, and is probably so poorly conceived it's just intended to get her past the current conversation.

[whichwayisup]

Thanks, a lot of great posts and useful info... and some were so spot on it made me wondering if any of you managed to sneak into my house.

 

I refer specifically (but not exclusively) to the poster (apologies I'll have to read back to remember the name and like the post) who called on my FWW attempts to avoid clear definitions and terms for hey behaviour and lack of "fire" in refuting the sex (paraphrasing).

 

Before I start responding to these points, may I please post a quick update. #1 had happened, told her I'm going after the OM. She didn't show any sign of being worrie, the only thing she said was that "she don't care about him, she wished be doesn't exist and though she had no right to ask me anything, she would ask me only not to get into trouble myself". Means I should do it legally not via physical confrontation.

 

#2 is in progress.

 

Wish you hadn't told her you were contacting the OM. Remember, your wife has learned how to lie and hide stuff from you so her acting cool and not worried doesn't mean much. She very well may call him or go see him so she can give him a heads up.. Never say never...

[No Limit]

You'll have to do it in a stealthy manner now. No doubt she has warned him.

[merrmeade]

Thanks, but could you please elaborate on why would I need to see a counselor?

So many reasons and so many ways you would benefit but, since it's very late, let me just leave it at Clarity. That would include Clarity about what you really want (and need); what you're really feeling (and not feeling) and why; what you really can do something about (and what you can't) and mostly Clarity about what's important.

 

You say you've never seen one in your life? That's a reason.

 

How about just the fact that you've wavered all over the emotional landscape on this thread. Do you remember how in the beginning we had to politely ask you to curb the dramatic outbursts because we couldn't figure out what had really happened and what you were projecting? And now you've swung way over the other direction to plodding mastermind focused on the detailed logistics of revenge.

 

We know you, zinger, but we don't really know YOU, your background, emotional development and overall health. We can't see your body language or hear all the messages in your inflection and expressions.

 

It's not LS or IC. They're not the same. LS has been great helping you figure out what to do as events have changed. LS can be great helping with emotional fallout from the infidelity as well. But with your goals and emotional well-being, it's only as good as your ability to explain accurately and even then it's just never going to replace a human professional trained in reading people in crisis.

 

You're entering a new phase, zing, and it's beginning to feel a bit like you and we are winging it. I think you would greatly benefit from a sit-down conversation or many with one person who can ask you questions about what happened and what's important, what you want and what you need. Your situation is unique and you need to talk about it.

 

Granted our wayward spouses are the ones 'needing' counseling if anyone needs to be fixed, but fat chance that's happening (in my case anyway). Besides, it's usually the people who really can fix themselves that end up recognizing the value of good therapy and are able to use it to best advantage.

 

You're too smart to dismiss this timely investment of your resources for the biggest, most important returns of your life.

[zinger]

I know that. That's why I'm here.

 

They person who I trusted with - literally - everything stubbed me in the back. I have better, stronger, unbiased no-sugar-coating support from strangers on this forum than from my own family and friends. People who are (IMHO) going through the situations far worse than mine find time to advice me on the use of internet (saying this with gratitude, not irony).

 

It's surreal.

 

zinger: BH and I are really not rooting for any particular outcome. We are rooting that you not be hoodwinked by your emotions and give your wife false forgiveness and hope that time will heal your wound. Most of us here at LS know that this is the worst possible path to take yet is often the road MOST traveled. We will help you recognize the signs of a lying, minimizing wife if that in fact is what you have. You won't want to believe us because, well, you are in denial and smoothing it all over is so tempting. So if it happens I ask you to listen to us and seriously consider that we just might be right about some of these things.

 

.

[zinger]

I haven't seen your post (as quoted) when I was typing my previous one. As I have posted earlier I have already booked IC, based on the plethora of advice here.

 

But let me please reassure you in the strongest way possible that what you posted below has not been in vain, I have carefully red and memorised it. So have other parts.

 

 

So many reasons and so many ways you would benefit but, since it's very late, let me just leave it at Clarity. That would include Clarity about what you really want (and need); what you're really feeling (and not feeling) and why; what you really can do something about (and what you can't) and mostly Clarity about what's important.

 

You say you've never seen one in your life? That's a reason.

 

How about just the fact that you've wavered all over the emotional landscape on this thread. Do you remember how in the beginning we had to politely ask you to curb the dramatic outbursts because we couldn't figure out what had really happened and what you were projecting? And now you've swung way over the other direction to plodding mastermind focused on the detailed logistics of revenge.

 

We know you, zinger, but we don't really know YOU, your background, emotional development and overall health. We can't see your body language or hear all the messages in your inflection and expressions.

 

It's not LS or IC. They're not the same. LS has been great helping you figure out what to do as events have changed. LS can be great helping with emotional fallout from the infidelity as well. But with your goals and emotional well-being, it's only as good as your ability to explain accurately and even then it's just never going to replace a human professional trained in reading people in crisis.

 

You're entering a new phase, zing, and it's beginning to feel a bit like you and we are winging it. I think you would greatly benefit from a sit-down conversation or many with one person who can ask you questions about what happened and what's important, what you want and what you need. Your situation is unique and you need to talk about it.

 

Granted our wayward spouses are the ones 'needing' counseling if anyone needs to be fixed, but fat chance that's happening (in my case anyway). Besides, it's usually the people who really can fix themselves that end up recognizing the value of good therapy and are able to use it to best advantage.

 

You're too smart to dismiss this timely investment of your resources for the biggest, most important returns of your life.

[merrmeade]

Hasn't everything been said and every speculation and possible conjecture been considered?

 

Why are we dragging poor zinger further into this maze of what-ifs and putting his wife on trial. Everything is about her guilt or innocence.

 

Isn't it time to slow down and look at the longer range issues?

 

What are you feeling at this point. I mean deep down outside of executing the plan?

This is what I'd like to know, too. Are you taking time to grieve? It's important to allow your feelings at this time. Don't go all neanderthal on the OM and get thrown in jail or anything, but you do need a good, deep cry—many, in fact. You need to kill the trash can, scream at a picture, tear up a pillow. This is not drama; it's the reality of feeling what's been done to you. Edited June 11, 2015 by merrmeade

[eric1]

You'll have to do it in a stealthy manner now. No doubt she has warned him.

 

Ultimately who cares if she's warned him? I imagine the impact of what zinger is going to say isn't going to require an additional element of surprise.

 

I kind of doubt she would warn him though. She's in damage control mode now.

 

Zinger, (most) of my family came around when they realized I was emotionally devastated by it. My simple suggestion would be to clean up your first ten or so posts here and send them to a few key family members. Tell them you started keeping a diary while you were in the air because you were going nuts or something.

 

As Merrmeade says you're devastated right now. It would be nice to have your family in your court because now is the point where you need a breather from all of this crap for a few days imho

[zinger]

I have considered pro's (an opportunity to observe her reaction) and con's (possibility she'd warn him) and decided to go for it. So far as far add I can tell she hadn't contacted him. I'm monitoring this (while I probably shouldn't care).

 

To catch up on a couple of posts rightfully suggesting that (paraphrasing) it was easy to talk tough sitting alone in the hotel room but as soon as I'm back home and getting tears and sobbing and get side of the story, etc my resolve weakens.

 

There is truth in that but in parallel to all of that I'm getting a divorce. I can (in theory) imagine us together in the future (subject to certain conditions) but I'm definitely don't want to be married anymore. For me a marriage is much more than a record in the registry.

 

I'm also not going to split hairs on finances (the cost off watch and all). I have my portfolio on front of me, I'm seeing a lawyer who will not be time sharing my case with hundreds of others, I just want this to be done asap.

[zinger]

This is what I'd like to know, too. Are you taking time to grieve? It's important to allow your feelings at this time. Don't go all neanderthal on the OM and get thrown in jail or anything, but you do need a good, deep cry—many, in fact. You need to kill the trash can, scream at a picture, tear up a pillow. This is not drama; it's the reality of feeling what's been done to you.

 

I'm not sure if I can answer this in a more or less structured way. I'll try. Warning: emotional.

 

I feel bipolar. My logic tells me my marriage is over and I just need to approach this as - add you put it - a logistical problem. I'm following my logic because it's a... logical thing to do.

I have accepted this has happened to me and should consider all of our as my starting constraints moving forward.

 

Me heart tells me I still care, don't want to see her suffering and perhaps subconsciously trying to find more evidence in a futule quest for the state when I can say I know all I need to know.

 

I feel anger that everyone around me are dead set on "saving or marriage" and think I'm some sort of a saint who will let this pad with no consequences. It also makes me questioning my judgement. When it does I read posts in this thread.

 

I'm not sure if it is called grief and I'm unable to cry. Surely in pissed off as hell, sad and all. Also feels helpless like being in a fight with hands tied. So many things beyond my control and I hate it. Devastated? Perhaps.

 

Never tried to tear a pillowcase apart bit I think my punching bags/pads in the gym are going to complain to Workplace Safety soon.

 

You are right about (not) going Neanderthal on OM tomorrow (at times jail feels like a good alternative) but if you ask me what do I want more than anything now, I'll honestly tell you that (except for the chance to rewind back 15 years) I wish OM throws a punch at me first.