To bust or not to bust

[eric1]

You're doing better than most at this point. It's because you're sticking to plan and not allowing emotions to drive the process.

 

You're divorced. Say it out loud.

 

The need to destroy things right now is biological. Dopamine is the thing that gives us the in-line feeling. It's also released by exercise. I suggest a class type exercise (crossfit, strongman, something where you feel big) where you have someone else driving you. It was the ONLY thing that got my mind off of things. I cannot stress this enough. Even if you haven't worked out in 20 years just do it.

 

My point is - you're feeling all kinds of f*cked up so STOP worrying about her and go through with the divorce. Heal YOU. SHE did this to you. You're the victim. YOU come first. Throw out all you learned about chivalry, male pride, whatever. Now is the time to have a laser focus on you

 

It sounds like you travel for work. Is it possible for you to relocate to get your mind off of things? There is a guy very similar to you on the Surviving Infidelity forums. Google his story. His username is SPACEGHOST007.

[eric1]

zinger you may want him to throw the first punch but it's critical that you keep calm so that you can manipulate him into giving you as much information as possible. He's a destitute lower. You need to find out what's important to him since it's obviously not money. You need to find it out since you will be destroying whatever he cares about at a later point, legally and from a distance.

[zinger]

I'm working on it. It's my hobby for now. Starting with his current place of employment.

 

zinger you may want him to throw the first punch but it's critical that you keep calm so that you can manipulate him into giving you as much information as possible. He's a destitute lower. You need to find out what's important to him since it's obviously not money. You need to find it out since you will be destroying whatever he cares about at a later point, legally and from a distance.

[zinger]

Its funny you said that. I'm 195/90 (yes I use metric) and have always been a gym junkie since times when gyms were not filled with women in velcro pants (sorry!), people prefer WWE to MMA and my family wanted me to play golf.

 

I don't travel excessively and always preferred time with family. I don't want to relocate yet, but I guess now nothing stops me from spending as much time as I want in places I love... aloine if I wish so.

 

 

I suggest a class type exercise (crossfit, strongman, something where you feel big) where you have someone else driving you. It was the ONLY thing that got my mind off of things. I cannot stress this enough. Even if you haven't worked out in 20 years just do it.

...

It sounds like you travel for work. Is it possible for you to relocate to get your mind off of things? There is a guy very similar to you on the Surviving Infidelity forums. Google his story. His username is SPACEGHOST007.

[SycamoreCircle]

I don't think you should confront the OM. When we envision revenge scenarios, we always imagine the kind of hurt we can inflict on the other person. We never consider that more hurt lies in wait for us. Anger always blinds us. You would be acting on anger. He would be acting on self-preservation. He would always come out ahead.

 

Additionally, it's not as if there's something intrinsically special about this guy that made your wife go astray. If it wasn't him, it would just be some other slob. Your wife is the linchpin to this chaos.

 

You will only come out more hurt from being in the presence of this guy. Consider him a blessing in disguise. Didn't he help uncover a severe flaw in your partner's ability to maintain a mature, loving relationship? He exposed her weakness. She is unfit for marriage. She is unfit for deep intimacy. She has to go back to square one and rebuild, if she ever wishes to have a deep, loving relationship.

 

And what about you?

 

You have to, like an archaeologist at an excavation site, go through your experience and with a small brush dust the debris from the artifact. Separate what is worth remembering from what needs to be swallowed by time and forgiveness. It's a nasty job. But it will make you grow. And the next time you're ready to love, your love will be even more immense.

[zinger]

Thank you. I like your post and hope one day in able to follow your advice. However - with respect - I'm going to keep my plans concerning mister genius. As I'm mentioned this lightens my burden, so why not.

 

After all - once again I agree with your assessment of FWW - based on what I know he was at least a willing participant (actually i have proof he played an "unrecognised genius" card very well), he knew she's married so I'm not having any moral dilemma here.

 

Again I respect and appreciate your opinion.

 

I don't think you should confront the OM. When we envision revenge scenarios, we always imagine the kind of hurt we can inflict on the other person. We never consider that more hurt lies in wait for us. Anger always blinds us. You would be acting on anger. He would be acting on self-preservation. He would always come out ahead.

 

Additionally, it's not as if there's something intrinsically special about this guy that made your wife go astray. If it wasn't him, it would just be some other slob. Your wife is the linchpin to this chaos.

 

You will only come out more hurt from being in the presence of this guy. Consider him a blessing in disguise. Didn't he help uncover a severe flaw in your partner's ability to maintain a mature, loving relationship? He exposed her weakness. She is unfit for marriage. She is unfit for deep intimacy. She has to go back to square one and rebuild, if she ever wishes to have a deep, loving relationship.

 

And what about you?

 

You have to, like an archaeologist at an excavation site, go through your experience and with a small brush dust the debris from the artifact. Separate what is worth remembering from what needs to be swallowed by time and forgiveness. It's a nasty job. But it will make you grow. And the next time you're ready to love, your love will be even more immense.

[SycamoreCircle]

What do you hope to gain from an interaction with him?

 

We seek out people because we need something from them. What do you need from him?

 

If you know him to be committed to deception, then what can he give you that will be worth a damn?

 

If it's your pride that must be reinstated, pride is you 10 years from now married to an amazing woman with kids bouncing on your lap. Pride has nothing to do with this situation, her or him.

[aliveagain]

I have considered pro's (an opportunity to observe her reaction) and con's (possibility she'd warn him) and decided to go for it. So far as far add I can tell she hadn't contacted him. I'm monitoring this (while I probably shouldn't care).

 

To catch up on a couple of posts rightfully suggesting that (paraphrasing) it was easy to talk tough sitting alone in the hotel room but as soon as I'm back home and getting tears and sobbing and get side of the story, etc my resolve weakens.

 

There is truth in that but in parallel to all of that I'm getting a divorce. I can (in theory) imagine us together in the future (subject to certain conditions) but I'm definitely don't want to be married anymore. For me a marriage is much more than a record in the registry.

 

I'm also not going to split hairs on finances (the cost off watch and all). I have my portfolio on front of me, I'm seeing a lawyer who will not be time sharing my case with hundreds of others, I just want this to be done asap.

 

zinger, the words, the vow you promised each other is what married you. The licence, the registry are just a public record of that event. Divorce takes time, you can stop the process anytime up to the final decree. I haven't seen anywhere on your posts any reference to children, so my assumption is your a couple, married 15 years with no children. That certainly will simplify the divorce process if divorce is really what you want. Has she told you why she thinks that her choice to bring another man into your relationship was going to help your relationship? You do need to sit down with her and have that talk

[oldshirt]

Zinger, as I stated earlier in the thread, I am an advocate of BSs addressing the OM/OW at some point as I believe that it can have some very pragmatic, nuts and bolts benefits.

 

 

However it can also go South real fast and can pile on an even bigger dose of trouble on top of an already problematic situation.

 

 

so I have to ask - What is your actual goal and objectives for meeting with the OM and what is your meeting agenda? What are you planning on asking him and what are you planning on telling him? What are you planning on doing at this meeting and how are you envisioning it going?

 

 

Why are you wanting to meet with him?

[aliveagain]

The thing that bothers me the most about this situation is not O/M because you have no commitment to each other, it is the knowledge that on at least two occasions you made it very clear to your wife what your stand on infidelity was. The first time was when you were discussing a couple you both know that were going through an infidelity issue. She was surprised by your comment that if you caught her in an affair you wouldn't give her a second chance(I made a comment that she may already be in an affair and was testing you). The second time was when you were both watching a show on television before your trip out of town, she made the comment about the classic gardener hiding under the bed scenario and getting into it with him while you were gone. Knowing this she still planned to meet O/M while you were out of town, even gave him an expensive watch and now acts all shocked with your reaction. Does she ever listen to what you say or take what you say seriously? Is she that selfish and entitled?

[eric1]

Zinger - you know confronting her boyfriend may not be the optimal move on paper. You have been executing absolutely pitch perfect thus far. You work out. You know what a cheat meal is.

 

Go have you big fat greasy burger, it'll taste awesome, then get back to the program.

 

You're kicking ass

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I don't think you should confront the OM. When we envision revenge scenarios, we always imagine the kind of hurt we can inflict on the other person. We never consider that more hurt lies in wait for us. Anger always blinds us. You would be acting on anger. He would be acting on self-preservation. He would always come out ahead.

I've said that confronting boyfriend isn't a good idea. There's nothing he can give you or say to you that matters. The guy is nothing. Let your wife have this nothing all to herself and move on.

[No Limit]

The thing that bothers me the most about this situation is not O/M because you have no commitment to each other, it is the knowledge that on at least two occasions you made it very clear to your wife what your stand on infidelity was. The first time was when you were discussing a couple you both know that were going through an infidelity issue. She was surprised by your comment that if you caught her in an affair you wouldn't give her a second chance(I made a comment that she may already be in an affair and was testing you). The second time was when you were both watching a show on television before your trip out of town, she made the comment about the classic gardener hiding under the bed scenario and getting into it with him while you were gone. Knowing this she still planned to meet O/M while you were out of town, even gave him an expensive watch and now acts all shocked with your reaction. Does she ever listen to what you say or take what you say seriously? Is she that selfish and entitled?

 

She did listen, but she weighed it out for herself and for her OM was a better prize than OP. It's an exciting gamble - no one expects to lose after all, and many more believe that even if caught they'll just do some rugsweeping and everything will be forgotten.

[merrmeade]

I'm not sure if I can answer this in a more or less structured way. I'll try. Warning: emotional.

 

Never tried to tear a pillowcase apart bit I think my punching bags/pads in the gym are going to complain to Workplace Safety soon.

 

You are right about (not) going Neanderthal on OM tomorrow (at times jail feels like a good alternative) but if you ask me what do I want more than anything now, I'll honestly tell you that (except for the chance to rewind back 15 years) I wish OM throws a punch at me first.

 

I feel bipolar. My logic tells me my marriage is over and I just need to approach this as - add you put it - a logistical problem. I'm following my logic because it's a... logical thing to do. I have accepted this has happened to me and should consider all of our as my starting constraints moving forward.

 

I'm not sure if it is called grief and I'm unable to cry. Surely in pissed off as hell, sad and all. Also feels helpless like being in a fight with hands tied. So many things beyond my control and I hate it. Devastated? Perhaps.

Know that this craziness is your normal for a while. I relate and went through every single state you describe. I did every one of them the wrong way first:

1 - Going off into "logistics" can be a defense mechanism to avoid feeling. I know because I did it by hyperfocusing on the phone and text records I know so much about. Made excel sheets, tallied numbers and averages, color-coded, graphed. Learned a lot of Microsoft I've never needed to show anyone but ignored deeper needs. Emotional damage control was pretty much in stasis until this year.

 

2 - I can't tell you enough that protecting her in any way from "suffering" will only prolong and increase yours. If you want to help her, then lay it on thicker. Anything less will delay her own coming to terms with what she's done. Go deep and purge any compassion you feel right now. More on remorse below.

 

3 - Don't worry about what you should or shouldn't feel; just don't stop it whatever it is (don't break laws either). I realize from IC that I go to "freeze" mode (ie, "fight, flight or freeze") in crisis. I stayed there for months after dDay. Everybody does it to some extent but you'll heal faster if you allow yourself to feel.

I feel anger that everyone around me are dead set on "saving or marriage" and think I'm some sort of a saint who will let this pad [pass] with no consequences. It also makes me questioning my judgement. When it does, I read posts in this thread.

(wee edit there) Yeah, this makes me go neanderthal on your behalf! God I hate people who do this to us. Everyone expected me to take f--king high road and I had no one to talk to. Two people told me outright to forgive him and her.

 

I felt outrage only from LS and 2 family members, one of them not until 2 years later, and YOU NEED OUTRAGE, zinger. Share something from your daily sh-t sandwich menu, and tell them to eat that crazy christian forgiveness crap (or not) for dessert.

 

Point is you need to surround yourself with supporters ONLY from here on out. Avoid anyone that suggests burying, rug-sweeping or faking it. FIND people who get it and say how sick she is, how undeserving you are, and are worried about YOU.

Me heart tells me I still care, don't want to see her suffering and perhaps subconsciously trying to find more evidence in a futule quest for the state when I can say I know all I need to know.

Regarding her "suffering": Remember that this is someone capable of the thinking/behavior employed by criminals (cover up). Her thinking, feeling habits are as different from yours as are the values and vows she threw in the dumpster. She's practiced and refined duplicity to a degree that she doesn't even see when she does it. And if she does realize it, it's even worse and harder to reconstruct those layers of neurons. That same brain will believe she deserves your forgiveness and soothe her suffering ego as quickly as you do. You do no one favors enabling that, least of all yourself. Don't ever forget the fact that this person does not think or feel the way you do. You don't really know how long this deep difference has been there, so don't assume that s/he changes this way of thinking and feeling unless it's demonstrated and explained in credible detail and consistency. The burden of proof is not on you.

 

And about remorse: I can tell you what it's not. Your WS does not know your pain right now, only that of her own shame. That is regret—NOT remorse. Being sorry is not enough. If the motivation is to convince you to take her back, it's not remorse. If you take her back and she jumps into 'life as usual' mode, it's not remorse. If she can't talk about it, it's not remorse. (Shame paralysis is antithetical to remorse; it's just the other side of self-indulgence.)

 

By staying with my WH and trying to reconcile, I live with what happens when you assume that your spouse shares your ideals and good will. You are not the same. Whereas you go deep and try to understand; she will go into rug-sweeping mode. You embrace and are liberated by the truth; she is burned by it and will do anything to avoid it. If you drop it, so will she, and, if you think you're going crazy now, it's just as bad when you start internalizing it.

 

YOU CANNOT HELP HER with what should come next. She has to WANT to know your pain. She has to ask to see it and share it. She has to embrace the knowledge that she caused it and dedicate her life to sharing it. She's willing to jump into that boiling oil because she cannot live with lies and self-delusion a moment longer. She does it for her, and she has to beg you to let her. Something like that.

Edited June 11, 2015 by merrmeade

[whichwayisup]

If you decide to go see the OM, please bring a recording device with you, just in case he does throw the first punch or tries to sucker you in. This is for your own protection. But, go with the intent to just hear him out, even though you'd love to put your fist into his face, don't.

[zinger]

You know, this is actually great. 2 particular things I find outstanding :

 

The "high road" bit. Substract Christianity, add "family reputation and harmony" and you get it hundred precent right. Only I'm not going to go crying on their shoulders for support. If they want to know how I feel (and where should they go with their family harmony up their...) they should want to know.

 

Yes that is the best framework for regret and remorse even I can comprehend. I'm not going to cry on her shoulder either. Been raised to conceal my weakness and emotions you know. Until she doesn't know it - all her tears are regret. If she stops (by her own decisions) being duchess sold to brothel, lets her suffering to join the family harmony as per the above paragraph and starts wanting to know and looking for my side of the story - then we can talk business.

 

 

Know that this craziness is your normal for a while. I relate and went through every single state you describe. I did every one of them the wrong way first:

1 - Going off into "logistics" can be a defense mechanism to avoid feeling. I know because I did it by hyperfocusing on the phone and text records I know so much about. Made excel sheets, tallied numbers and averages, color-coded, graphed. Learned a lot of Microsoft I've never needed to show anyone but ignored deeper needs. Emotional damage control was pretty much in stasis until this year.

 

2 - I can't tell you enough that protecting her in any way from "suffering" will only prolong and increase yours. If you want to help her, then lay it on thicker. Anything less will delay her own coming to terms with what she's done. Go deep and purge any compassion you feel right now. More on remorse below.

 

3 - Don't worry about what you should or shouldn't feel; just don't stop it whatever it is (don't break laws either). I realize from IC that I go to "freeze" mode (ie, "fight, flight or freeze") in crisis. I stayed there for months after dDay. Everybody does it to some extent but you'll heal faster if you allow yourself to feel. (wee edit there) Yeah, this makes me go neanderthal on your behalf! God I hate people who do this to us. Everyone expected me to take f--king high road and I had no one to talk to. Two people told me outright to forgive him and her.

 

I felt outrage only from LS and 2 family members, one of them not until 2 years later, and YOU NEED OUTRAGE, zinger. Share something from your daily sh-t sandwich menu, and tell them to eat that crazy christian forgiveness crap (or not) for dessert.

 

Point is you need to surround yourself with supporters ONLY from here on out. Avoid anyone that suggests burying, rug-sweeping or faking it. FIND people who get it and say how sick she is, how undeserving you are, and are worried about YOU.Regarding her "suffering": Remember that this is someone capable of the thinking/behavior employed by criminals (cover up). Her thinking, feeling habits are as different from yours as are the values and vows she threw in the dumpster. She's practiced and refined duplicity to a degree that she doesn't even see when she does it. And if she does realize it, it's even worse and harder to reconstruct those layers of neurons. That same brain will believe she deserves your forgiveness and soothe her suffering ego as quickly as you do. You do no one favors enabling that, least of all yourself. Don't ever forget the fact that this person does not think or feel the way you do. You don't really know how long this deep difference has been there, so don't assume that s/he changes this way of thinking and feeling unless it's demonstrated and explained in credible detail and consistency. The burden of proof is not on you.

 

And about remorse: I can tell you what it's not. Your WS does not know your pain right now, only that of her own shame. That is regret—NOT remorse. Being sorry is not enough. If the motivation is to convince you to take her back, it's not remorse. If you take her back and she jumps into 'life as usual' mode, it's not remorse. If she can't talk about it, it's not remorse. (Shame paralysis is antithetical to remorse; it's just the other side of self-indulgence.)

 

By staying with my WH and trying to reconcile, I live with what happens when you assume that your spouse shares your ideals and good will. You are not the same. Whereas you go deep and try to understand; she will go into rug-sweeping mode. You embrace and are liberated by the truth; she is burned by it and will do anything to avoid it. If you drop it, so will she, and, if you think you're going crazy now, it's just as bad when you start internalizing it.

 

YOU CANNOT HELP HER with what should come next. She has to WANT to know your pain. She has to ask to see it and share it. She has to embrace the knowledge that she caused it and dedicate her life to sharing it. She's willing to jump into that boiling oil because she cannot live with lies and self-delusion a moment longer. She does it for her, and she has to beg you to let her. Something like that.

[zinger]

On OM. I get your point of view and appreciate the advice. If like to clarify that you are all right, and the only reason I went there is to be sure that I won't blame myself in the future for not doibg that. Kind of "no one messes with my wife, my rifle and my car" mentality.

 

Anyway, I went there entered the front shop and asked to see "OM". The girl asked for my name and automatically I told her "Zinger". Next thing she does is picks up the handset and anounces via the loud speaker "OM to the front desk, Zinger is here" (to the workshop, it's a signage company - ads, signs, posters, etc). After maybe 15 minutes manager comes, apparently OM left (through the back door I assume). Had nice chat with him explaining why I'm here and what his company is going to be involved with.

 

So I didn't meet him, but he knows I'm after him. Kind of a compromise I guess.

[turnera]

What is his company going to be involved with?

 

btw, I get it. I fully believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' OM/OW.

[eric1]

He knows you're after him. The worst part of a horror movie is when you know the bad guy is outside.

 

He is an artist. Does he sell his art?

[whichwayisup]

On OM. I get your point of view and appreciate the advice. If like to clarify that you are all right, and the only reason I went there is to be sure that I won't blame myself in the future for not doibg that. Kind of "no one messes with my wife, my rifle and my car" mentality.

 

Anyway, I went there entered the front shop and asked to see "OM". The girl asked for my name and automatically I told her "Zinger". Next thing she does is picks up the handset and anounces via the loud speaker "OM to the front desk, Zinger is here" (to the workshop, it's a signage company - ads, signs, posters, etc). After maybe 15 minutes manager comes, apparently OM left (through the back door I assume). Had nice chat with him explaining why I'm here and what his company is going to be involved with.

 

So I didn't meet him, but he knows I'm after him. Kind of a compromise I guess.

 

Gonna be blunt/rude here, but wow, what a p,ssy! To run off and hide like that, slink away because 1)he's afraid to see you. Or, he's a jerk and knows he's been busted and doesn't see the point of facing you, doesn't want to apologize or own up his part in the affair and running shows guilt. If he did nothing wrong and it was not serious, wouldn't he want to defend himself, clear it up?

[Morbius]

If I am not mistaken, you have access to your W's communications. Now that OM knows for sure you wish to "speak" with him, has he been in contact with your W that you are aware of?

[TobyBoy]

If I am not mistaken, you have access to your W's communications. Now that OM knows for sure you wish to "speak" with him, has he been in contact with your W that you are aware of?

 

More than likely they have communicated after dday. Either directly or a third party!!! This you can count on!!

[zinger]

Thank you,

 

I'm not sure I "get" the rehabilitation comment but I'd like to explain the company involvement.

 

For sure I understand I have no legal stance / case against the company and I have not suggested or hinted any legal action. The manager seemed to be a nice older bloke so I politely explained why I'm here, that I'll be trying to meet the OM there from time to time - not on premises but in the vicinity and it's up to him to ignore this whatsoever. I think he took it seriously and professionaly but who knows.

 

What is his company going to be involved with?

 

btw, I get it. I fully believe in trying to 'rehabilitate' OM/OW.

[zinger]

He is an artist. Does he sell his art?

 

Not sure. Never bothered to find out. Based on what I can gather he played a card of talented artist who is unable to dedicate his life to High Art and has to support himself doing ads, signs and that sort of graffiti when you get paid for it. So I guess he's no Rembrandt.

 

Does it make any sense as I can't reproduce this nonsense properly?

[zinger]

More than likely they have communicated after dday. Either directly or a third party!!! This you can count on!!

 

Perhaps bit I couldn't intercept anything of recently including last 48 hours.