To bust or not to bust

[m.snow]

That is the point here I'm struggling to get across (here, family even thatIC). This is my fault :I'm not equipped to clearly discuss these matters in writing or verbally. I'll try again. Yes I'm testing my wife. I need to get my trust back. I see no other way of getting it back. The divorce is not for punishment. And yes, I need her to ' put the miles'. Why? Because otherwise I'll be looking at myself as a "doormat" as it commonly referred here who let his wife be worth other man and just swallowed it with no consequences. Why only divorce (I get it how devastating is it)? Please tell me what else remain for me and I swear I will consider this. I did read around here and the other forum Eric had suggested. They talk about transparency, commitment, new boundaries, signs of love, etc. You see, I had all of that . At the end it comes to Zinger fixing this mess one again as I've been doing this since I remember. That is what I'm expected to do. So it will end with "ok, I won't do it again". Not good enough for me. If a drunk driver kills someone dear to me, am I supposed to be happy and at peace when court releases him with assistance he won't do it again, end of story?

 

To me if she deals with divorce (and this is where I appreciate your input really) this will mean something. Tell me what else can I expect from her as an alternative and I'll reconsider and post here a copy of email to my lawyer to stop the papers.

 

If an emotional blow off divorce is to devastating for her and she'll prefer to "better herself for another man", as you put it, so be it. I'll just accept she stayed married to me for the sake of security and move on.

 

Clear as mud isn't it?

 

have you seen this dudes post VeryBrokenMan he was able to do certain steps towards reconcile.

 

im thinking your in same boat as he is.

 

there are things like no contact with om & wife be monitored & put things to writing. essentially about giving 2nd chances.

 

for one i know being an engineer we don't like to dabble in emotions and people problems. we work with machines and animate things.

 

wait! be an engineer if there's a problem "fix it!". we don't like to throw away things we can fix!

 

link:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/501659-wife-31-years-had-affair-my-story

 

but i say go with your wife on a vacation cruise for a week and just **** each others brains out! (have great sex) and see were goes from there.

1 week just you and her alone.

Edited June 19, 2015 by m.snow

[Buckeye2]

I think you can make your point without words and expressions like "inflicting," "struck a blow," and "punishment."

 

The wayward spouse chooses to risk divorce when they decide to betray their spouse. Divorce is a natural and understood consequence of marital betrayal and it's one that the wayward chooses to risk. No one inflicts it upon them but themselves. And it's perfectly healthy for a betrayed spouse to enforce that very reasonable boundary that says, if you break your end of the contract, I am not keeping my end of the contract. YOU chose divorce and that's what you got. If anyone unilaterally chose to end the marriage, it's the wayward.

 

Now after a divorce, if the couple decides to forge a new marital agreement, superb. And the boundaries and consequences are clear and obviously real. The old marriage is dead. Want a new one? You obviously know what you're getting into and the consequences of violating that agreement because they weren't pretend consequences; they were real. Choose to drop a nuke on the marriage? It's nuked. Don't expect me to un-nuke it for you.

 

I agree.

 

“I think you can make your point without words and expressions like "inflicting," "struck a blow," and "punishment."”

 

I think these words are used because the BS is the only person that can make it return to the way it was before. The WS, AP, their friends and family are in an uncomfortable situation and it’s very awkward for all concerned.

 

With a wave of their hand the BS can alleviate all of that and everyone can pat each other on the back and say how it turned out so well. The BS is a jerk if they don’t allow everyone to return to their regular lives.

 

I had a similar situation with a cousin that lived paycheck to paycheck. Everyone in my family knows that I’m a saver. The cousin ran into financial trouble and everyone knew that I could just write a check and fix everything. Then they could feel good about the situation. Of course I was a jerk if I didn’t write the check. I was punishing my cousin for not being a saver.

[MKI180]

Ok, the digest is:

Met mid spring at after art show party.

She had seen a talent that is being held back by routine life

Started helping and supporting.

He felt in love, she became "emotionally attached"

Knew what she's is doing is wrong but loved his emotional dependency on her and flirting, compliments and admiration from him.

Claims still loves me.

Claims never told him she loves him or considered leaving me for him

Spending a lot of time together talking and "connecting at shortish level"

At times almost like looking after him (she bought him some painting supplies and gave reference for a job ad an example)

He started seeing the scene for intimacy, invitation to sirens time alone in his place etc

She resisted but didn't cut it.

Confirmed hand holding, touching faces and as of recent confession wrapping his arms around her shoulders and waist and trying to hold her.

Claims sometimes it was also"motherly".

He never asked her to divorce me for him but said "its painful for him that we are together ' and" she deserves better husband than me, I don't deserve her". She said to him she didn't want to talk about this (eg. me)

 

That's is in short what I know for now.

 

 

From another Forum:

 

"In 99.9 percent of the cases, if they say

They have only talked or texted....they have met in person.

That they are "just friends". It is at the very very least an emotional affair...if they have spend a lot of time together in person, it is a physical affair.

They have only kissed....they had sex.

If they have been communicating for more than a few weeks and had time alone together, it has gone physical.

If they go parking it is not to talk.

If they work out together alone, it is not to work out.

If they go on over night work trips alone, it is not to work.

If they are in a support group together and meet alone to talk about their issues, it is not to talk about their issues....

I think you get the picture."

[m.snow]

Ok,

He never asked her to divorce me for him but said "its painful for him that we are together ' and" she deserves better husband than me, I don't deserve her". She said to him she didn't want to talk about this (eg. me)

That's is in short what I know for now.

 

have you already confronted her about this.

 

again as example VeryBrokenMan http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/501659-wife-31-years-had-affair-my-story

 

he even had tape recording about her wife which was so damming.

but still he'd try to reconcile to see if could still be fixed. but to him it should under his terms.

 

it would be a missed opportunity if your wife would be like sofie2013 who was really remorseful and wanted the marriage back.

 

i say your not a doormat if you give her another chance.

Edited June 19, 2015 by m.snow

[sandylee1]

: if W posted on this site about her A and the current situation the overwhelming advise would be for HER to start the 180.

 

 

.

 

I disagree with this. Advice from me would be for her to tell the truth , because I don't buy the no sex . She needs to come clean.

If she said on this board that she didn't sleep with OM next step would be book a polygraph and prove it.

 

Where do you buy a Tag watch and do all that for hand holding. That kind of crap and trickle truth is an insult to Zinger's intelligence.

 

You need the truth to know if any relationship is a possibility in the future .

 

Most people advise WSs to work on themselves, not 180, which involves going out, socialising etc. That would show a BS the WS had no remorse and make them glad they were proceeding with D.

You don't cheat then act like you don't give a damn, that's what a BS does with an unremorseful WS.

[fellini]

So if someone is in an EA and has only sexted, and held hands and kissed and had coffee's, what are they supposed to say so that we can interpret them? They shook hands?

 

Sometimes things are not what they seem. Sometimes people say X and they mean X.

 

 

 

From another Forum:

 

"In 99.9 percent of the cases, if they say

They have only talked or texted....they have met in person.

That they are "just friends". It is at the very very least an emotional affair...if they have spend a lot of time together in person, it is a physical affair.

They have only kissed....they had sex.

If they have been communicating for more than a few weeks and had time alone together, it has gone physical.

If they go parking it is not to talk.

If they work out together alone, it is not to work out.

If they go on over night work trips alone, it is not to work.

If they are in a support group together and meet alone to talk about their issues, it is not to talk about their issues....

I think you get the picture."

[SpokenFor]

Hi Zinger,

 

I've been reading and felt like I should post since some of your approach to this resonates really strongly...

 

Anyway, my bona fides: 21 years ago in my first marriage my wife got involved in an EA with a co-worker after 12 years of marriage, no kids. I was aware that they had gone to a film festival one night when I played my monthly poker game, then a few other work-related group nights out with me disinvited. There came a night when she went out with him and went to his place, I called his number and asked for her at 2am, when he handed her the phone I told her I would be leaving for a weekend and she would need to be home to feed our dog. She claimed they just fell asleep talking and no sex had happened. After a long weekend up at Tahoe by myself staring at the lake, I came home, told her I was going to divorce her, she went to her co-workers to live, I paid for a simple divorce and it was all done about 8 months after it started, with separation date the Monday I came home.

 

Mutual friends told me she was in a bad way during and after the divorce, realized she had traded down in a substantial way, and she claimed she had a kind of breakdown. I really wasn't interested because in a lot of ways she had not been interested in my happiness and in my life for several years prior to this while I had made huge efforts to try to make an unhappy person happy. I figured this out within a few IC sessions with a really good therapist and owned my part of the responsibility for the situation without owning responsibility for her choice. My ex ended up marrying the co-worker after a couple years, they are still married, no kids, and by infrequent remarks from old mutual friends are essentially roommates.

 

I am now happily married for 15 years with 3 kids and I carry with me always the knowledge that if I explain to my current wife that something is important to me in my life and for my happiness she will find a way to support me. I can relax and do the same for her without worrying about writing emotional blank checks to someone who will not reciprocate.

 

So, similarities and differences... Your wife had an EA which may or may not have become physical. Your impulse is to do what I did and cut cleanly. However, I think your marriage is worth more than mine was at this point, perhaps a lot more. I think your happiness matters to her and I think her happiness still matters to you. I think she wants to support you in your life goals and be part of them.

 

Here's my thoughts on where to go, for what they might be worth:

1) I had clarity that things were physical. You don't, and you need that. A polygraph test seems like a great step since you aren't likely to get truth from her boy and don't want to trust her yet.

2) I'd take a step back even if it had become physical and ask some questions of yourself before hitting the divorce button. For a guy like me or you it is pretty easy to push the button once you decide to do so, and a few weeks won't make a difference.

3) I am pretty sure based on what you've said that your wife still wants to make you happy and to build a life together that fulfills you both. What you need to decide is whether you are going to want to do the same for her. If not, your decision is made.

4) If after a little while you still feel like her happiness and your life together is important to you, figure out what she needs to do to repair, what you both need to do to rebuild, and move that way.

 

I think you've done a great job in what I know from personal heartache is an incredibly tough situation. You know better than anyone here what is in your heart, and I wish you well in this trial by fire.

[italianjob]

A few weeks of a purely platonic friendship (with plenty of chances of time alone) and a $ 2to6k gift are quite an unlikely coupling. It really takes a big leap of faith to believe this was not physical...

 

And add to that that she run away when she saw zinger in the parking lot, and the OM sneaked out the back door to avoid confrontation.

 

Really, not physical?

Come on...

[sandylee1]

Zinger,

 

The question is.................what did she say about you , that would make him say 'she deserves a better husband than you'

 

She obviously said rather negative things about you, for him to draw such as conclusion .

 

This is standard affair stuff. Badmouth your spouse to your AP to gain sympathy and reel them in. Then when it comes down to it , the WS doesn't want to leave their spouse , they just want a little extra on the side.

 

Of course she'd have never left you for him. She was keeping him with the gifts and financial assistance , as men don't do well being the single OM.

[81West]

Amazed at the implication that Zinger is somehow to blame for divorce or whatever happens. He owes her nothing. Its called consequences of infidelity.

 

It does seem like he really wants to know what really happened between WW and boy toy , and he seems to have the resources to be able to afford a polygraph . One question could determine if this was only EA.

 

Like I said before none of us know anything really of exactly what she has told him other than the probable untruth that they never had sex

 

I give up. It's like I'm playing a crazy game of telephone with the internet. I just can't spend any more fruitless time correcting misinterpretations of what by now I think is a fairly clear point: unilateral divorce is no less destructive to a wanted relationship than cheating, regardless of cause, effect and who did what to whom first. It's not about blaming Zinger, it's about recognizing that his current plan compounds the damage and changes the relationship independent of what his WS did. No issue if as he says he doesn't care either way if she 'puts in the miles'. But he needs to recognize that it becomes more difficult to 'put in the miles' if he's just effectively driven into her at 100mph. She caused the accident, but now it's his foot on the accelerator. The risk is high that it's a stupendously bad plan if he would prefer not to live a life without his wife if she could do what was necessary to repair the damage she did.

[81West]

That is the point here I'm struggling to get across (here, family even thatIC). This is my fault :I'm not equipped to clearly discuss these matters in writing or verbally. I'll try again. Yes I'm testing my wife. I need to get my trust back. I see no other way of getting it back. The divorce is not for punishment. And yes, I need her to ' put the miles'. Why? Because otherwise I'll be looking at myself as a "doormat" as it commonly referred here who let his wife be worth other man and just swallowed it with no consequences. Why only divorce (I get it how devastating is it)? Please tell me what else remain for me and I swear I will consider this. I did read around here and the other forum Eric had suggested. They talk about transparency, commitment, new boundaries, signs of love, etc. You see, I had all of that . At the end it comes to Zinger fixing this mess one again as I've been doing this since I remember. That is what I'm expected to do. So it will end with "ok, I won't do it again". Not good enough for me. If a drunk driver kills someone dear to me, am I supposed to be happy and at peace when court releases him with assistance he won't do it again, end of story?

 

To me if she deals with divorce (and this is where I appreciate your input really) this will mean something. Tell me what else can I expect from her as an alternative and I'll reconsider and post here a copy of email to my lawyer to stop the papers.

 

If an emotional blow off divorce is to devastating for her and she'll prefer to "better herself for another man", as you put it, so be it. I'll just accept she stayed married to me for the sake of security and move on.

 

Clear as mud isn't it?

 

Zinger, there are a thousand points on a line between being a doormat on one end and forcing a divorce on the other. In your situation it takes strength to go, but courage to stay and see if she can do what it takes to put it back together. In your own self assessment, what matters more to you? Strength or courage? Safety or a risk with the possibility of a significant reward? You DON'T have to want to consider reconciliation at all! She has shaken and hurt and humiliated you in the worst way. But if you do want to see if reconciliation is possible it's madness to complicate that with a divorce. You'll be testing nothing but whether she wants to reopen herself to emotional dependence on somebody who put her through an equally painful, humiliating and unnecessary legal action. You'll be going before many other people than one OM and telling them you don't want to be married to this person any more. Knock yourself out if you want to play that high stakes game of tit for tat, action and reaction, truth and consequences, but be realistic about what you'll 'prove' with it (nothing) and what likely happens next (also nothing). If her friends and family have any sense they'll urge her to move on at that point.

Edited June 19, 2015 by 81West

[sandylee1]

With her still lying about it being an EA and badmouthing you to the OM, divorce as you are proceeding is what's needed.

 

Why would a man who doesn't know you suggest your not a good husband?

 

If in the distant future you have any kind of relationship, at least your assets will already be split. She can support and help out her parents, as she obviously didn't appreciate you doing so.

 

I hope you're doing okay considering what you're dealing with.

[drifter777]

Ok, the digest is:

Met mid spring at after art show party.

She had seen a talent that is being held back by routine life

Started helping and supporting.

He felt in love, she became "emotionally attached"

Knew what she's is doing is wrong but loved his emotional dependency on her and flirting, compliments and admiration from him.

Claims still loves me.

Claims never told him she loves him or considered leaving me for him

Spending a lot of time together talking and "connecting at shortish level"

At times almost like looking after him (she bought him some painting supplies and gave reference for a job ad an example)

He started seeing the scene for intimacy, invitation to sirens time alone in his place etc

She resisted but didn't cut it.

Confirmed hand holding, touching faces and as of recent confession wrapping his arms around her shoulders and waist and trying to hold her.

Claims sometimes it was also"motherly".

He never asked her to divorce me for him but said "its painful for him that we are together ' and" she deserves better husband than me, I don't deserve her". She said to him she didn't want to talk about this (eg. me)

 

That's is in short what I know for now.

 

zinger: I understand that you have some issues expressing yourself in english so I want to make this question as clear as possible: is it sex that is the deal-breaker for you? Or is it the lying about and hiding her relationship with this man - is this a deal-breaker?

[drifter777]

Zinger, there are a thousand points on a line between being a doormat on one end and forcing a divorce on the other. In your situation it takes strength to go, but courage to stay and see if she can do what it takes to put it back together. In your own self assessment, what matters more to you? Strength or courage? Safety or a risk with the possibility of a significant reward? You DON'T have to want to consider reconciliation at all! She has shaken and hurt and humiliated you in the worst way. But if you do want to see if reconciliation is possible it's madness to complicate that with a divorce. You'll be testing nothing but whether she wants to reopen herself to emotional dependence on somebody who put her through an equally painful, humiliating and unnecessary legal action. You'll be going before many other people than one OM and telling them you don't want to be married to this person any more. Knock yourself out if you want to play that high stakes game of tit for tat, action and reaction, truth and consequences, but be realistic about what you'll 'prove' with it (nothing) and what likely happens next (also nothing). If her friends and family have any sense they'll urge her to move on at that point.

 

I'm not sure there is much difference between strength and courage. You say strength to leave but courage to stay - not really any difference to me.

 

I'm clearly influenced by the fact that I am a BH. You had an EA a number of years ago - are you influenced by that? Are you advising OP based on the perspective of a WW? There's nothing at all wrong with that however I think zinger should understand where our points of view are coming from.

[CarrieT]

zinger: I understand that you have some issues expressing yourself in english so I want to make this question as clear as possible: is it sex that is the deal-breaker for you? Or is it the lying about and hiding her relationship with this man - is this a deal-breaker?

 

That is a great question...

 

Because I could see a woman finding an artist and wanting to help him (or her!), but within the confines of a marriage, it should have gone this way:

 

Wife: Honey, I went to an art show today and found an artist that I think has a lot of potential that I would like to support.

 

Husband: Oh, really? What kind of art?

 

Wife: I would love to show you what he is creating and introduce you to him sometime.

 

There. The whole thing would have been above board and out in the open from the get-go. The fact that she hid it and lied about it - and then apparently bad-mouthed her husband (for whatever reason) to the artist is what makes this all suspect and I believe she is re-writing the history to appease Zinger.

[RightThere]

zinger: I understand that you have some issues expressing yourself in english so I want to make this question as clear as possible: is it sex that is the deal-breaker for you? Or is it the lying about and hiding her relationship with this man - is this a deal-breaker?

 

Just generalizing, but for a lot of men who are betrayed by their wives, the early stages the sex and physical part of the affair is the toughest to deal with.

 

As the months go by, it is the lying and emotional connection the WW had with the OM that is tougher to deal with.

[81West]

I'm not sure there is much difference between strength and courage. You say strength to leave but courage to stay - not really any difference to me.

 

I'm clearly influenced by the fact that I am a BH. You had an EA a number of years ago - are you influenced by that? Are you advising OP based on the perspective of a WW? There's nothing at all wrong with that however I think zinger should understand where our points of view are coming from.

 

I was single when I had the EA, so I guess the closest perspective for that is an OW. I have never been a WW. Nonetheless, you're right that my current perspective and experiences are influencing my thoughts. I have of late been doing a lot of personal reflection on ideas of strength and courage and I have concluded that there is a very meaningful difference between the two. Strength can be developed and practised through sheer necessity, and it can be tapped for self-protection when every other choice feels like weakness or shame. Courage is a far more active and difficult choice. You can be strong and hard and brittle precisely because you lack the courage or the ability to take risks or allow the possibilities of failure or vulnerability or loss. Repeating destructive but useful life patterns is another example where we can lack the courage to sit through uncomfortable feelings to effect true and necessary change. Is Zinger, an admitted 'my way or the highway' guy, shutting down the options here because that's just what he does to manage conflict? It bears some thought.

 

The other thing I think about in this situation is squandering the precious gift of two people wanting the same thing. So much can be solved when two people simply want the same thing. An overwhelming majority of the pain on Loveshack, and my own current pain, comes from two people who don't or can't want the same thing. What so many of us would give to just be able to say that we can, that we do, in our various situations. If she wants a shot, and deep down Zinger wants her to have that shot, to potentially destroy what could have been saved on pride or the fear of being weak or being seen as weak when the truth is that you want the same thing? Well that would be sad, and utterly wasteful.

[zinger]

This question is an absolute eye opener to me. Being an idiot iI am I have never thought about it.

 

I can't thank you enough for this.

 

 

 

Zinger,

 

The question is.................what did she say about you , that would make him say 'she deserves a better husband than you'

 

She obviously said rather negative things about you, for him to draw such as conclusion .

 

This is standard affair stuff. Badmouth your spouse to your AP to gain sympathy and reel them in. Then when it comes down to it , the WS doesn't want to leave their spouse , they just want a little extra on the side.

 

Of course she'd have never left you for him. She was keeping him with the gifts and financial assistance , as men don't do well being the single OM.

[81West]

This question is an absolute eye opener to me. Being an idiot iI am I have never thought about it.

 

I can't thank you enough for this.

 

Given that it came from the horse's mouth, you might want to open it up to a wider context than sandylee is assuming. He could have have initiated these ideas on nothing, or tapped into very mundane observations in an effort to be manipulative.

[zinger]

zinger: I understand that you have some issues expressing yourself in english so I want to make this question as clear as possible: is it sex that is the deal-breaker for you? Or is it the lying about and hiding her relationship with this man - is this a deal-breaker?

 

Sex is an absolute 100% deal braker with complete no contact ever once divorce is granted.

Life with no parole in other words.

Having a relationship with other man and hiding is an instant deal braker to the marriage with the small widow of opportunity in the future of remaining in contact and reconcilin. Very small.

[zinger]

Anther great post. I wish she'd handle this just like that. You see, our financial situation is very good and I always encouraged hey to spend not to save. So if she wanted just to help him, she'd talk to me like this and I would invested into him, but him an exhibition or whatever you do to promote a talent. She didn't have to caress his cheeck.

 

 

 

That is a great question...

 

Because I could see a woman finding an artist and wanting to help him (or her!), but within the confines of a marriage, it should have gone this way:

 

Wife: Honey, I went to an art show today and found an artist that I think has a lot of potential that I would like to support.

 

Husband: Oh, really? What kind of art?

 

Wife: I would love to show you what he is creating and introduce you to him sometime.

 

There. The whole thing would have been above board and out in the open from the get-go. The fact that she hid it and lied about it - and then apparently bad-mouthed her husband (for whatever reason) to the artist is what makes this all suspect and I believe she is re-writing the history to appease Zinger.

[zinger]

Is Zinger, an admitted 'my way or the highway' guy, shutting down the options here because that's just what he does to manage conflict? It bears some thought..

 

First is like to let you know that I value your opinion despite the fact that my views are opposite.

 

Second, while I'm a conflict person, what I was trying to say in that post is my wife was a one and only exemption to this rule. No conflicts and no desire to conflict on my side.

 

Third. Wrt your following post, I understand : I simply need to find out why he said that and what was her party in it.

[81West]

First is like to let you know that I value your opinion despite the fact that my views are opposite.

 

Second, while I'm a conflict person, what I was trying to say in that post is my wife was a one and only exemption to this rule. No conflicts and no desire to conflict on my side.

 

Third. Wrt your following post, I understand : I simply need to find out why he said that and what was her party in it.

 

I appreciate you making a differing view welcome Zinger.

 

You've never had to be in meaningful conflict with your wife before by your own account, and now that you are it doesn't matter that she used to be an exception because she's not any more. If you don't in fact handle conflict well or do so with too much rigidity ("my way or the highway") this may be distorting your current perspective and driving behaviour that is too rash.

[sandylee1]

This question is an absolute eye opener to me. Being an idiot iI am I have never thought about it.

 

I can't thank you enough for this.

 

Your most welcome.

 

There's no reason for him to assume you're a bad husband , unless she alluded to it or outright said it.

 

I bet she never said, 'no he's a great husband , I love him'

Of course she never.

 

This is a taster of what she probably said to him :

 

He doesn't pay attention to me

I feel neglected

He doesn't understand me

He doesn't make me feel special

He takes me for granted

 

 

Then OM says ............

 

He doesn't deserve you

I'd never neglect you

I'll always treat you special

You're so beautiful

Blah blah blah ..

 

Ego stroking back and forth

[No Limit]

These "it's been physical" vs "meh no I think it was just emotional" discussion has been quite tedious and is probably going on since the past 20 pages. So far what we have pointing at physical is

 

a) the gift watch

b) her confession to what they said - "you deserve better" is the standard line before they get it on, the rest of what she told you is also classic cheater textbook

 

She knows physical is a dealbreaker for you so she'll never ever admit to it. How about you pull the rotten tooth already and get the polygraph? Chances are you'll get a parking lot confession like this: "Maybe... i-it wasn't just emotional... but just one time and with protection! And maybe a little this and that..."