To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Missed this initially but this is spot on. I've airways been expected to fix things. And now if I and only I let it go we everything magically turns back to normal happy days. So why do heavy work if I'm clearly a point of lowest resistance? Like looking for a list coin where there is light, not where you dropped it.

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

I had a similar situation with a cousin that lived paycheck to paycheck. Everyone in my family knows that I’m a saver. The cousin ran into financial trouble and everyone knew that I could just write a check and fix everything. Then they could feel good about the situation. Of course I was a jerk if I didn’t write the check. I was punishing my cousin for not being a saver.

[zinger]

Me expectation of her offering a lie detector test on her own accord are clearly unrealistic. I'll schedule one. Sorry if it took me 20 pages to realise.

 

 

These "it's been physical" vs "meh no I think it was just emotional" discussion has been quite tedious and is probably going on since the past 20 pages. So far what we have pointing at physical is

 

a) the gift watch

b) her confession to what they said - "you deserve better" is the standard line before they get it on, the rest of what she told you is also classic cheater textbook

 

She knows physical is a dealbreaker for you so she'll never ever admit to it. How about you pull the rotten tooth already and get the polygraph? Chances are you'll get a parking lot confession like this: "Maybe... i-it wasn't just emotional... but just one time and with protection! And maybe a little this and that..."

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

Congratulations!!! Scheduling the polygraph and doing it will unlock the can of worms for you and you will k ow what you are actually dealing with . If she never had sex with him whether you schedule it or she thinks of it she should be dying to get to the examiner

 

Be very cautious on the parking lot confession . Many times they will give you some more TT hoping to avoid the test . No matter what she tells you go through with the test. And if she refuses to take it you know what that means

[BetrayedH]

Zinger

 

Congratulations!!! Scheduling the polygraph and doing it will unlock the can of worms for you and you will k ow what you are actually dealing with . If she never had sex with him whether you schedule it or she thinks of it she should be dying to get to the examiner

 

Be very cautious on the parking lot confession . Many times they will give you some more TT hoping to avoid the test . No matter what she tells you go through with the test. And if she refuses to take it you know what that means

 

If you do some decent research on polygraphs, you'll find they're unreliable.

 

That said, you need to be convincing that you think they are reliable. The value in them is not the results themselves but, as others have mentioned, the parking lot confession. If you're not familiar with what's being mentioned here, it's common for waywards to agree to the test, thinking they'll find a way out of it or a way to beat it or something. When that doesn't happen, they find themselves in the car on the way to the test and start offering you some truth, many times right in the parking lot before you walk in. As Frisky wisely advised above, you still insist on the test under threat of divorce. The "confession" you get in the parking lot is likely to be trickle-truth. You may even get more truth during the test.

 

The problem is that you'll never know if it's the full truth. Or maybe she'll finally embrace full disclosure. Or maybe you'll get enough truth to know it's passed your dealbreaker threshhold.

 

Fun stuff, huh?

[aliveagain]

Do the polygraph, if she has anything to hide you'll hear the truth by the time you get to the front door of where the testing is to be done. You want to see her reaction when to tell her you booked the test, you may not need to do anymore based on her response.

[drifter777]

If my wife accused me of having sex with OW and I didn't then I would have scheduled the polygraph as soon as humanly possible. I would have moved heaven and earth to prove my innocence. Has she done anything at all to prove her innocence? Anything?

[m.snow]

polygraph is a farce don't use that. polygraph are so inaccurate they are not even used in court.

 

you cant use it if you told the person about the polygraph a few days before the test. because he/she can prepare and that can alter the test.

 

just sift through her emails,sms & facebook messages.

[drifter777]

I was single when I had the EA, so I guess the closest perspective for that is an OW. I have never been a WW. Nonetheless, you're right that my current perspective and experiences are influencing my thoughts. I have of late been doing a lot of personal reflection on ideas of strength and courage and I have concluded that there is a very meaningful difference between the two. Strength can be developed and practised through sheer necessity, and it can be tapped for self-protection when every other choice feels like weakness or shame. Courage is a far more active and difficult choice. You can be strong and hard and brittle precisely because you lack the courage or the ability to take risks or allow the possibilities of failure or vulnerability or loss. Repeating destructive but useful life patterns is another example where we can lack the courage to sit through uncomfortable feelings to effect true and necessary change. Is Zinger, an admitted 'my way or the highway' guy, shutting down the options here because that's just what he does to manage conflict? It bears some thought.

 

The other thing I think about in this situation is squandering the precious gift of two people wanting the same thing. So much can be solved when two people simply want the same thing. An overwhelming majority of the pain on Loveshack, and my own current pain, comes from two people who don't or can't want the same thing. What so many of us would give to just be able to say that we can, that we do, in our various situations. If she wants a shot, and deep down Zinger wants her to have that shot, to potentially destroy what could have been saved on pride or the fear of being weak or being seen as weak when the truth is that you want the same thing? Well that would be sad, and utterly wasteful.

It is still a complete value judgement on your part to say that courage applies only to the "let's try to reconcile" and not to "I want a divorce" path. I don't think any of us can ever make this call for someone else.

 

What I believe is that it's the triggers that prolong the agony for a BS. The easiest, fastest way to reduce triggers is to go complete No Contact with your WS. Whether you call it strength or courage - it takes a lot of each to maintain NC with the person you love and never imagined would hurt you like this. The temptation to try to overlook the cheating & call it a mistake that you just know you WS will never make again is strong. It holds the false promise of making everything ok. To realize that this will only prolong your agony and crush your spirit takes the strength/courage to face the harsh reality that your WS had a love affair with another person.

[sandylee1]

Me expectation of her offering a lie detector test on her own accord are clearly unrealistic. I'll schedule one. Sorry if it took me 20 pages to realise.

 

That's if she agrees to a poly . Not everyone will agree.

 

Questions to ask

 

Did you passionately kiss the artist?

 

Did you have sexual relations with him (this is anything from handjobs to oral, but NOT intercourse )?

 

Did you have sexual intercourse with him?

 

Same 3 questions can be asked of whether those things have occurred since you've been married.

 

As others have said , go through with test regardless of what she says in the parking lot .

 

BTW - if she thinks you'll divorce her regardless of whether it was a PA, she may refuse a poly, so phrase it in the right way to her.

[eric1]

I think that a poly is a waste of time.

 

If you were out hunting for reasons to reconcile, then it might be worth a shot in the dark after forensic recovery of her electronic devices.

 

I'd just stay your path and if she is truly innocent then this is the type of thing that SHE should be proposing.

 

You're putting in like a billion times more effort than she is. There is a reason that she's not moving heaven and earth to prove her innocence. She's still lying and manipulating you, "motherly". What. The. F3ck. I don't even know you outside of an anonymous internet forum and I'm pissed off at 6am reading that.

[Friskyone4u]

Eric is right that she shoujld be doing anything humanely possible to prove that what she is saying is truthful. And she is NOT doing that, instead continuing to feed you the crap right out of the cheaters handbook 101.

 

I would still do the polygraph so months from now even if divorced you are not wondering about any thing. You can afford it so it is not like this will break your budget.

 

I think most of us would bet on what the results will be

[BetrayedH]

It is still a complete value judgement on your part to say that courage applies only to the "let's try to reconcile" and not to "I want a divorce" path. I don't think any of us can ever make this call for someone else.

 

What I believe is that it's the triggers that prolong the agony for a BS. The easiest, fastest way to reduce triggers is to go complete No Contact with your WS. Whether you call it strength or courage - it takes a lot of each to maintain NC with the person you love and never imagined would hurt you like this. The temptation to try to overlook the cheating & call it a mistake that you just know you WS will never make again is strong. It holds the false promise of making everything ok. To realize that this will only prolong your agony and crush your spirit takes the strength/courage to face the harsh reality that your WS had a love affair with another person.

 

Yes. It begs the question...if Zinger wants to reconcile with his wayward wife, why?

[No Limit]

polygraph are so inaccurate they are not even used in court.

 

The only reason they aren't used in court is because they aren't 100%; but they're still up there in 95%+ accuracy. If you doubt the polygraph, what's next?

 

There was a case where a court ordered a DNA test and it came out wrong, even though the woman had never slept with anyone else. She was outed by everyone and it took her 5 years to finally get court to hear her out and get another DNA test done - this time it came back that he WAS the father. A little mistake done by a staff member of the laboratory destroyed that woman's social life - does that mean that DNA tests are inaccurate too because of the mere possibility of human error?

 

you cant use it if you told the person about the polygraph a few days before the test. because he/she can prepare and that can alter the test.

 

Only true psychopaths can do that, and since OPs wife is already going crazy ever since she knew OP was consulting a lawyer I very much doubt she's one of them.

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger,

 

I would not opay any attentikon to the "opinions" about plygraphs reliability. The fact is that in the US at least, the largest corporations in the country and many top security governemtn agencies use them at the recommendation of highly paid consultants for pre employment and security issues, and the do rely on the results.

 

Your wife is not a CIA spy trained in how to beat a polygraph test and her chances of doing that are about the same as getting hit by lightning

[sandylee1]

The thing is that Zinger's wife was reading about affairs way back at the start of this thread. She knew exactly what she was doing. I'm sure she read about the pain suffered by betrayed spouses. She had a chance to end it there and then after Zinger made clear he would divorce her if she had an affair. .........but.....she didn't.

 

She was so deep in the affair and didn't realise her behaviour was causing suspicion.

 

From her reading, she knows what to do to prove it wasn't a PA. One WW said she'd die before she took a poly. Then finally after a year, because he BH couldn't move on she agreed to a poly. The day before the poly, she finally confessed it was PA.

 

He still went through with the poly and there was a whole lot more. She thought repetitively denying it was a PA was enough, because she knew her H would divorce her if it was a PA..........she was right......he filed the very same day of the poly results .

 

She carried on and this nonsensical crap about it being motherly is a joke .....I mean really ......what does she take you for. I think too many unfaithful spouses think because their spouse loves them , they will forgive and reconcile without question.

[BetrayedH]

With due respect, some additional reading is recommended for those that believe polys to be reliable (I used to be one of those that believed they were). Not that I like auoting wikipedia, but here's a sample...

 

Polygraphy is widely criticized.[11][12][13] Despite claims of 90% validity by polygraph advocates,[14] the National Research Council has found no evidence of effectiveness.[12] The utility among sex offenders is also poor[15] with insufficient evidence to support accuracy or improved outcomes in this population.[16]

 

Even using the high estimates of the polygraph's accuracy, false positives occur, and these people suffer the consequences of "failing" the polygraph. In the 1998 Supreme Court case, United States v. Scheffer, the majority stated that "There is simply no consensus that polygraph evidence is reliable" and "Unlike other expert witnesses who testify about factual matters outside the jurors' knowledge, such as the analysis of fingerprints, ballistics, or DNA found at a crime scene, a polygraph expert can supply the jury only with another opinion..."[17] In 2005 the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals stated that “polygraphy did not enjoy general acceptance from the scientific community”.[18] In 2001 William Iacono, Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience concluded that

 

Although the CQT [Control Question Test] may be useful as an investigative aid and tool to induce confessions, it does not pass muster as a scientifically credible test. CQT theory is based on naive, implausible assumptions indicating (a) that it is biased against innocent individuals and (b) that it can be beaten simply by artificially augmenting responses to control questions. Although it is not possible to adequately assess the error rate of the CQT, both of these conclusions are supported by published research findings in the best social science journals (Honts et al., 1994; Horvath, 1977; Kleinmuntz & Szucko, 1984; Patrick & Iacono, 1991). Although defense attorneys often attempt to have the results of friendly CQTs admitted as evidence in court, there is no evidence supporting their validity and ample reason to doubt it. Members of scientific organizations who have the requisite background to evaluate the CQT are overwhelmingly skeptical of the claims made by polygraph proponents.

 

[19]

 

Summarizing the consensus in psychological research, professor David W. Martin, PhD, from North Carolina State University, states that people have tried to use the polygraph for measuring human emotions, but there is simply no royal road to (measuring) human emotions.[20] Therefore, since one cannot reliably measure human emotions (especially when one has an interest in hiding his/her emotions), the idea of valid detection of truth or falsehood through measuring respiratory rate, blood volume, pulse rate and galvanic skin response is a mere pretense. Psychologists cannot ascertain what emotions one has,[21] with or without the use of polygraph.

 

Polygraphs measure arousal, which can be caused by anxiety, anxiety disorders such as PTSD, nervousness, fear, confusion, hypoglycemia, psychosis, depression, substance induced (nicotine, stimulants), substance withdrawal state (alcohol withdrawal) or other emotions; polygraphs do not measure "lies."[8][22][23] A polygraph cannot differentiate anxiety caused by dishonesty and anxiety caused by something else.[24]

 

National Academy of SciencesEdit

The accuracy of the polygraph has been contested almost since the introduction of the device. In 2003, the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) issued a report entitled "The Polygraph and Lie Detection". The NAS found that the majority of polygraph research was "unreliable, unscientific and biased", concluding that 57 of the approximately 80 research studies that the American Polygraph Association relies on to come to their conclusions were significantly flawed. These studies did show that specific-incident polygraph testing, in a person untrained in counter-measures, could discern the truth at "a level greater than chance, yet short of perfection". However, due to several flaws, the levels of accuracy shown in these studies "are almost certainly higher than actual polygraph accuracy of specific-incident testing in the field".[13]

 

When polygraphs are used as a screening tool (in national security matters and for law enforcement agencies for example) the level of accuracy drops to such a level that "Its accuracy in distinguishing actual or potential security violators from innocent test takers is insufficient to justify reliance on its use in employee security screening in federal agencies." In fact, the NAS extrapolated that if the test were sensitive enough to detect 80% of spies (a level of accuracy which it did not assume), this would hardly be sufficient anyway. Let us take for example a hypothetical polygraph screening of a body of 10,000 employees among which are 10 spies. With an 80% success rate, the polygraph test would show that 8 spies and 1,992 non-spies fail the test. Thus, roughly 99.6 percent of positives (those failing the test) would be false positives. The NAS concluded that the polygraph "...may have some utility"[13] but that there is "little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy.".[13]:212

 

The NAS conclusions paralleled those of the earlier United States Congress Office of Technology Assessment report "Scientific Validity of Polygraph Testing: A Research Review and Evaluation”.[25] Similarly, a report to Congress by the Moynihan Commission on Government Secrecy[26] on national security concluded that " The few Government-sponsored scientific research reports on polygraph validity (as opposed to its utility), especially those focusing on the screening of applicants for employment, indicate that the polygraph is neither scientifically valid nor especially effective beyond its ability to generate admissions..".

[aliveagain]

Most waywards think their too smart to get caught, as noted by sandylee1 your wife was on infidelity sites most likely reading about how other waywards got caught. She might have been posting about her own affair, have you access to these sites? She tested you to get your reaction when she told you about another couples infidelity problem and when she mocked you about who you would find under your bed, she didn't like your answer. She was already in her affair when she tested you. She met him in public, held hands with him in plain sight of other people. She ran away from you in the parking lot because she knew you were on to her, innocent people don't run away. She had to get her story strait with O/M because she knew that you would divorce her if she admitted to sex. No one buys an expensive watch for someone that isn't important to them, you buy them a couple of tubes of paint, a canvas or two maybe but not a watch. A watch you buy for a boyfriend, lover, fiancé a husband so they remember you for as long as they have the watch, you usually engrave the back, did she say she engraved the back?

 

Do the polygraph regardless of what you are told about it's accuracy. Every policing organization in the world uses it for a reason, they are effective in getting the truth. The fear of taking one is usually enough to get the full truth.

Edited June 20, 2015 by aliveagain

[66Charger]

A polygraph is accurate enough. You get beat a polygraph if you practise your answers, however if a question is reworded or they are not expecting it, the chances that you will avoid detection are really low.. For example, she may be prepared mentally for the question "Did you have intercourse with x" however if it is followed up with " have you ever seen X naked" then "has X ever seen you naked?" Followed by have you ever touched x while naked? Then back to the original question of Did you have intercourse with X?" No way a amateur can beat a professional test.

 

With that being said, do I think you should strap your wife to a machine? No. I do think you should sit her down and ask one more time for the truth and include questions about any other affairs. After she is done, then say, "If all this is truth full, you shouldn't mind a polygraph" You should be focused on her reactions. The reactions people have when caught off guard are natural and consistent.

 

Remember the day your wife was caught in the mall parking lot? Remember that look on her face. If you see anything that resembles that, you have your answer and expect a host of reasons why she will not do it.

 

If you see a bright light go on and she jumps on it. That is a answer too. I would then drive to the test, monitoring her reactions. If you do not get a parking lot/elevator confession and she appears not to fear the test, cancell it. Do not strap her down. At this point you may have to accept that she maintained some boundaries and so should you.

 

If she fights it or is sweating bullets, it really doesn't make a difference whether you test or not. You know the answer. Go ahead with the test. The answers will be horrible.

 

This is where I agree with 81west (and only on this point). If she is telling the truth, strapping her down will be a visual you will both never forget. Mercy is not forgiveness nor a weakness. At the last minute, if here reactions warrant it, show mercy.

 

Either way, get it done now.

 

IMHO

[sandylee1]

Everyone knows polygraphs are not 100% accurate , but they are a very useful tool in uncovering deception, and more importantly is the wayward spouse's reaction and response when you request a poly. Sometimes they agree hoping that will make you drop it. Then when you book it , it's one excuse after another to avoid it.

 

Many waywards look up 'how to beat a polygraph ' on the Internet frantically hoping to continue their deception .

 

A WS who is now being truthful will jump at the chance to try and prove their innocence.

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

Here's the bottom line . When you first posted you had totally different opinions on whether or not from your wife's behavior you should be suspicious at all . There were those, some still giving you advice , that told you that you were being concerned about nothing, and there were those of us who smelled this from the first post .

At this point after over 40' pages of responses you still basically know very little factual information for sure . All you know if that she had an inappropriate relationship that involved a little kissing and a gift, and you have a bunch of reasons and explanations from her that only a four year old would believe, and you are way too smart for that.

Now that may be enough for you to either D or R , but if not you have a standoff here. She is not going to tell you anything more since she probably knows it will kill any chances of R.

So I'll let the legal scholars here debate the poly reliability and ask you what other tools do you have if you want the truth . I don't think water boarding her will be acceptable and you are NOT in a court of law so that is irrelevant

 

She obviously wants to stay married . Her fun is over . Now I guess you have to make the decision on standing pat in this standoff or pulling the d trigger or r trigger . Hope you choose correctly

[Kalrayan]

I have joined the forum and went through Zinger's postings and member suggestions.

 

What I glean from Zinger is that he is interested in reconciliation after his wife has 'paid' for her transgression. He wants to make sure that she realises that her actions have consequences and faces them. Allowing for reconciliation without divorces is seen in his eyes as her not having paid her dues or faced the consequences. Hence he is keen on D to ensure that she pays for her 'sin'. Once she has been punished through divorce he is open to considering a new relationship with her if she desires. That is being seen as her showing true remorse and win him back.

 

I only want to emphasise here two things.

 

1. Zinger should not see reconciliation as something that his wife has escaped consequences of infidelity. The exposure, her true remorse, guilt would have all made her suffer to make a better woman of her.

2. If he still prefers Divorce, (as he is fully entitled to) he should see that she has fully paid for her sin and will be starting with a clean slate. It means that she need not have to work and win him over and can move on. This is the most likely consequence of divorce, a fact that has been emphazised again and again in these postings.

 

All said and done, Zinger, the decision lies with you and it is not easy. Wishign you the courage, conviction and heart to take the right decision according to you (whatever it is).

[fellini]

She obviously wants to stay married . Her fun is over . Now I guess you have to make the decision on standing pat in this standoff or pulling the d trigger or r trigger . Hope you choose correctly

 

Any decision is the correct one, if it is what we want.

[drifter777]

I have joined the forum and went through Zinger's postings and member suggestions.

 

What I glean from Zinger is that he is interested in reconciliation after his wife has 'paid' for her transgression. He wants to make sure that she realises that her actions have consequences and faces them. Allowing for reconciliation without divorces is seen in his eyes as her not having paid her dues or faced the consequences. Hence he is keen on D to ensure that she pays for her 'sin'. Once she has been punished through divorce he is open to considering a new relationship with her if she desires. That is being seen as her showing true remorse and win him back.

 

I only want to emphasise here two things.

 

1. Zinger should not see reconciliation as something that his wife has escaped consequences of infidelity. The exposure, her true remorse, guilt would have all made her suffer to make a better woman of her..

 

This "should not" suggestion doesn't apply to anyone but yourself. You don't see it as escaping consequences. I do, zinger does, and many other BH's see it that way. To me it's because it is exactly that: WW getting away with having sex with someone other than their H. The only consequence that balances this scale is for BH to divorce and never look back. You don't see it that way - fine. Some of us do and saying it "should" be one way or another is a sweeping generalization of your personal morals/values onto the rest of the world.

 

2. If he still prefers Divorce, (as he is fully entitled to) he should see that she has fully paid for her sin and will be starting with a clean slate. It means that she need not have to work and win him over and can move on. This is the most likely consequence of divorce, a fact that has been emphazised again and again in these postings.

We're not talking about someone breaking the law, doing their time, and then asking for a second chance. If this happens and she comes crawling to zinger begging for a second chance I could understand him just walking away. He knows who she is and what she is capable of doing - why set yourself up, knowingly, for another horrible betrayal? Smart money says move on and take your chances with another woman.

 

zinger: tell her that there may be a chance for reconciliation if she tells you the whole truth right now. Tell her you have the polygraph scheduled but you want to give her one last chance before that day. Tell her you might be able to live with the sexual part but that the continued lying and making a fool out of you is a one-way ticket to divorce. It might take her a day or so to contemplate this but I think there's a good chance she'll come clean. Once you are convinced you know the truth - or at least as much of it as she will ever admit - you can feel better about the path you choose.

[sandylee1]

From everything Zinger has said there is NO reconciliation in THIS marriage.

 

Any little chance of a future relationship AFTER divorce is dependant on whether :

 

It was a PA

she does the leg work

 

A future relationship is not something Zinger is hoping for, it's just a possibility if his wife can show remorse after divorce.

 

If she decides to pursue the artist or anyone else.....she's a free agent. She can continue to pay for his paints and the rest of it.....see how long that lasts.

 

Women usually want a particular type of man as a husband or long term partner , the artist isn't that man. She's after stability and security , which at this point with all the idiotic lies she doesn't deserve .

 

Zinger is (from what he's said ) will take or leave getting back with WW AFTER divorce. He's not fussed either way.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

No one buys an expensive watch for someone that isn't important to them, you buy them a couple of tubes of paint, a canvas or two maybe but not a watch. A watch you buy for a boyfriend, lover, fiancé a husband so they remember you for as long as they have the watch, you usually engrave the back, did she say she engraved the back?

 

Did she ever buy a comparable watch for the OP?

 

That should tell him everything he needs to know about his relative importance to his wife.