To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Actually, if I may, 81West posts did offer me great insides into the mindset (or likely mindset) of the "other side ". Did they convince me to change the course - no, were they valuable - yes. So it's not up to me to judge the sircumstances and values of the person they are coming from.

 

I value your posts in the same way BTW.

 

 

You are starting to sound annoying... There is a different POV. Then there is projecting your own insecurities and values on to others

[singer23]

Zinger, would not knowing what entirely happened ok with you ?

 

Lets say she fails the poly...What then ?

 

Also, did you find the transaction for the watch in the credit card statements ?

[zinger]

1. Absolutely not ok, that's why I bother with poly et all

2. Divorce with no further communication of any kind. The same applies if I find evidence she slept with him on my own.

3.I did find a lot of cash withdrawals, as I posted.

 

 

Zinger, would not knowing what entirely happened ok with you ?

 

Lets say she fails the poly...What then ?

 

Also, did you find the transaction for the watch in the credit card statements ?

[singer23]

Poly only gives you a general yes or know. Not the details of her affair. You only have a limited set of questions to ask.

[sandylee1]

May I please have your permission to copy and paste that in the future? This is great thanks

 

Absolutely☺

[merrmeade]

I think I'm having dissociative experiences. I thought there was some cause and effect in this exchange, but this makes no sense to me:

She could produce all of the texts, emails, and other communications between her and the other man, along with a timeline. ... I'd be thinking that she'd take every opportunity to prove that her version of the story is correct. Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

Once again, a lot of attempts ... but nothing tangible, nothing concrete, like any of the things you mentioned or similar). Either she doesn't see a possibility to do so or... She knows theres more to what I know.

Do you have any objections to asking her for her communications? I realize you don't want to lead this horse to water but if you're going to have her quizzed thru a poly, what's the difference?

Nothing rational. It is just since we always had access to all media (I'll grab your phone to make a call while you are driving) no questions asked both sides, and I went "forensic" anyway, I did have a hope she'd offer that.

Huh? Not syncing: She partially deleted, PI can't get anything new. What makes anyone think she'd know how to produce it if she wanted to?

 

But for the record, bH, your two 'probablies' here are not valid, imho:

If they had sex, they probably discussed it. If they didn't have sex, they probably discussed it.

I think I have some similarities with this situation, certainly as eric portrays it:

... she carried on an emotional affair that probably got carried away into a PA on a few occasions. She lied to herself that it was something that it wasn't and that's why her attempts are so damn half hearted, she's lied to herself for so long everything is a mess.

 

It's clear she's hiding something, zinger has only learned new material inflation to this point through his actions or the actions of his PI. He'll, he found some half deleted files. Had to trace back through a GPS.

 

She's just not telling the truth. Or, more specifically, hiding the truth. If all that exists was on the table right now, she'd be pouring over specific and granular statistics and supporting facts. That's what people who tell the truth do. She would be exhibiting significant frustration otherwise.

So I agree with most of what both you guys have said, but there are inconsistencies. This 'probably' is true: "Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. "

 

My WH and sister-in-law (OW) were like this. Desperately needed to delude themselves that they were simply best friends, and the PAs were stupid accidents when they "lost it" a few times. No need to mention them. I pieced this together from things both had said, not written. (I think she still believes it.) They have to have an agreed-upon perspective that made it less offensive to them. If this was zinger's wife's mindset, she would not have given the PA reality in her own mind. My WH, however, owned up to the weird crookedness in the messed up reality right away. "Yes, it was wrong and she knows it." (He did one or two things right)

 

OW/SIL is an attorney and was very careful. She NEVER slipped in emails, and the most he ever said was, "If you [pick up something for me], I'll make it up to you when you get here." (barf)

[fellini]

A guy who has only 12 posts and of which about 80% are in fact "projections" about your own insecurities about the situation others find themselves in could begin by taking his own advice.

 

You are starting to sound annoying... There is a different POV. Then there is projecting your own insecurities and values on to others

 

 

This whole thread is knee deep in speculation about a woman we know almost ZERO ABOUT. I have never seen people so quick to assert - yes assert - that they know exactly WHAT the motivations are of a person who has done NOTHING concrete - I refer NOT to the EA or potential PA. I speak to her reactions to the DDAY. Maybe she should be in LS getting the kind of hard clear good advice Zinger is getting. Maybe had she come in here instead of him she would be offering a poly. We can't know because she isn't in here preventing us from speculating what motivates her.

 

It's like there is a child who is sitting quietly and everyone around him has condemned him quilty of "hiding something". And where are all the BS's who have a story to tell in which the distance between Dday and getting the "truth" out of their own WS's was longer than it is taking Zinger? People here talk AS IF when they discovered an A, they got EVERYTHING they needed to know the day after.

 

If you were not able to do the same in your situation, what makes you think Zinger is going to in his? She may, or may not have more to hide. She may, or may not have a PA to hide.

 

Example: My WW kept "hidden" a piece of the puzzle of her affair from me for 9 months. In the end it was NOTHING compared to what I learned about her A on Dday. Nothing. It was almost irrelevant to me. But it meant the world to her, so much so that she guarded it like it was her child. It was trivial to me in the larger scheme of things but she kept it from me EVEN during ruthless periods of interogation and massive doses of explaining how important it was for me NOT to discover anything new, to put it ALL behind me. She continued through all of this to hide something she was mortally ashamed of, and which seemed to have caused her more shame than telling me about their physical affair. She risked our marriage to protect herself from this truth.

 

Sometimes (probably almost all the time) the things that matter to men are not even in the same ballpark as the things that matter to woman.

Edited June 24, 2015 by fellini

[beatcuff]

we are all over the place and i think some key points are getting lost, at least with me. Zinger can you help:

 

there are no children involved.

 

WS admits to seeing OM for coffee

 

and that's it --- this is my key confusion point

 

you left then returned.

 

you went to an IC for one meeting, became frustrated and walked out

 

there has been no MC or further IC

 

you have decided D is the route, seen an attorney but have not moved forward.

 

you desperately want to know what really happened.

[eric1]

we are all over the place and i think some key points are getting lost, at least with me. Zinger can you help:

 

there are no children involved.

 

WS admits to seeing OM for coffee

 

and that's it --- this is my key confusion point

 

you left then returned.

 

you went to an IC for one meeting, became frustrated and walked out

 

there has been no MC or further IC

 

you have decided D is the route, seen an attorney but have not moved forward.

 

you desperately want to know what really happened.

 

She deleted everything else and anything found to this point has been through Zinger's forensic/detective efforts (partially deleted files, GPS records). All of what he has found this far lends itself to a much deeper relationship than she is letting on, but she's not giving him any specifics.

 

He knows they've met a number of times and have communicated through multiple channels (likely Kik messenger after they smartened up on the texts). She's deleted all of this communication too.

 

The point is, there is a communication history out there that would have either cleared the air or implicated her further. She took the step of deleting it and to this point has refused to give up any specifics on them. The burden is proof is on her because she deleted these communications. Actions have consequences, she shouldn't get extra credit points for deceiving her husband about the relationship with another man. If she wants to clear her name I'm happy to give Zinger my direct number and have her reach out to me. I don't know what country he is in but chances are that I have someone in my network who is qualified and licensed to perform full forensic recoveries of nearly any type of electronic device. I will even absorb the cost of running these forensic recoveries personally. If she is innocent and clearly interested in clearing her name, then this would be an option that she should jump at.

Edited June 24, 2015 by eric1

[autumnnight]

She deleted everything else and anything found to this point has been through Zinger's forensic/detective efforts (partially deleted files, GPS records). All of what he has found this far lends itself to a much deeper relationship than she is letting on, but she's not giving him any specifics.

 

He knows they've met a number of times and have communicated through multiple channels (likely Kik messenger after they smartened up on the texts). She's deleted all of this communication too.

 

The point is, there is a communication history out there that would have either cleared the air or implicated her further. She took the step of deleting it and to this point has refused to give up any specifics on them. The burden is proof is on her because she deleted these communications. Actions have consequences, she shouldn't get extra credit points for deceiving her husband about the relationship with another man. If she wants to clear her name I'm happy to give Zinger my direct number and have her reach out to me. I don't know what country he is in but chances are that I have someone in my network who is qualified and licensed to perform full forensic recoveries of nearly any type of electronic device. I will even absorb the cost of running these forensic recoveries personally. If she is innocent and clearly interested in clearing her name, then this would be an option that she should jump at.

 

If the phone account is in both their names, he can request the text manuscripts from the provider. Not just the list of numbers you can get off your account info, but the actual script. Even if she deleted it, THEY may still have it. I'm sure you know that, but the OP may not.

[BetrayedH]

I think I'm having dissociative experiences. I thought there was some cause and effect in this exchange, but this makes no sense to me: Huh? Not syncing: She partially deleted, PI can't get anything new. What makes anyone think she'd know how to produce it if she wanted to?

 

But for the record, bH, your two 'probablies' here are not valid, imho: I think I have some similarities with this situation, certainly as eric portrays it: So I agree with most of what both you guys have said, but there are inconsistencies. This 'probably' is true: "Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. "

 

My WH and sister-in-law (OW) were like this. Desperately needed to delude themselves that they were simply best friends, and the PAs were stupid accidents when they "lost it" a few times. No need to mention them. I pieced this together from things both had said, not written. (I think she still believes it.) They have to have an agreed-upon perspective that made it less offensive to them. If this was zinger's wife's mindset, she would not have given the PA reality in her own mind. My WH, however, owned up to the weird crookedness in the messed up reality right away. "Yes, it was wrong and she knows it." (He did one or two things right)

 

OW/SIL is an attorney and was very careful. She NEVER slipped in emails, and the most he ever said was, "If you [pick up something for me], I'll make it up to you when you get here." (barf)

 

I hear you. And some of my "probably" statements should perhaps change to "maybe" statements.

 

I do believe that there is something to learn from their communications. And I doubt the PI found everything there is to find. What's odd is that for a woman that's desperate (hysterical, even) to save her marriage when falsely accused of a PA, she hasn't done much to exonerate herself. I'd think at some point she'd say, "Ask me anything you want and I'll answer." And then Zinger could ask, "Can I see all of your messages?"

 

But she's not offering and he's not asking (even though a polygrapher is going to ask at some point).

[eric1]

If the phone account is in both their names, he can request the text manuscripts from the provider. Not just the list of numbers you can get off your account info, but the actual script. Even if she deleted it, THEY may still have it. I'm sure you know that, but the OP may not.

 

Given the communications then that could help but I seem to remember it was only a few texts and calls before they moved to Kik.

 

And again, there is only two reasons to use Kik: You don't have money (and even then you'll probably use Viber, WhatsApp or something more "pure") or you're looking for a semi-anonymous way to carry on sexual relationships (swingers, etc - so you don't need to give out your #, cheaters so that it's not hitting data plans). Just visit Ashley Madison - literally every person there uses Kik.

[BetrayedH]

Given the communications then that could help but I seem to remember it was only a few texts and calls before they moved to Kik.

 

And again, there is only two reasons to use Kik: You don't have money (and even then you'll probably use Viber, WhatsApp or something more "pure") or you're looking for a semi-anonymous way to carry on sexual relationships (swingers, etc - so you don't need to give out your #, cheaters so that it's not hitting data plans). Just visit Ashley Madison - literally every person there uses Kik.

 

I'm sure people also use kik to chat about paint and, you know, canvas and stuff. It's all completely harmless. And deleted, to save space on the phone.

Edited June 24, 2015 by BetrayedH

[merrmeade]

A guy who has only 12 posts and of which about 80% are in fact "projections" about your own insecurities about the situation others find themselves in ....

 

This whole thread is knee deep in speculation about a woman we know almost ZERO ABOUT. I have never seen people so quick to assert - yes assert - that they know exactly WHAT the motivations are of a person ...

 

Example: My WW ...

How is it "projection" when someone else does it and "Example" (and, therefore, valid) when you do it? Everyone's experience is the most accessible "Example," and it's only as valid as the elements of the situation are comparable. It doesn't matter who postulates better.

 

The problem is the quality of information we're getting from OP.

[merrmeade]

She could produce all of the texts, emails, and other communications between her and the other man, along with a timeline. If they had sex, they probably discussed it. If they didn't have sex, they probably discussed it. Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. Has that been offered up to corroborate her story? I can see that she might not even think to offer a poly, and I can even understand some dismay on her part even if she's innocent of a PA. But otherwise, I'd be thinking that she'd take every opportunity to prove that her version of the story is correct.

 

Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

Nothing is clear enough here to make even this projection to me. Unclear her state of mind, zinger's state of mind, what they've actually said to each other, what information he has and what's available... He should just do the polygraph, making sure the questions are the right ones, and see what comes from it.

 

Dropping IC, not finding someone else is a concern.

 

Is she in IC?

[66Charger]

I think this thread is a perfect example of what LS is for. From the very beginning (suspicions) to now (divorce, poly), the OP has received a wide range of OPINIONS and that is what he asked for. At no time did he ask any of us "were you there?". Disagreeing with a posters viewpoint is natural. Slamming posters for having a different viewpoint is showing a incapacity to see other sides of the story.

 

With that being said, the pressing topic is the polygraph. The question is should she take the test. Regardless of what is implied by Zinger, if she is not 100% clear that he will divorce regardless of the results of the poly (his words) he is negotiating in bad faith. She must be given the option to take the test based on the CLEAR information that divorce is a 100% certainty. Anything else is not voluntary and is under duress.

 

Zingers original plan was that she would take the necessary steps to keep the window open for a POSSIBLE future reconciliation. IMHO, he should go back to this plan.

 

Zinger, if you don't get the parking lot confession, IMO you should pull back. DONT FORCE THIS. If she is willing to take the truth to her grave then let her. Let her know that when/if you are BOTH ready to consider reconciliation and she KNOWS that she has given you the WHOLE truth, about this and any other possible affairs, she needs to back it up with a poly.

 

Then accept it. Accept everything, divorce and move on.

 

Some of the questions that you want to know, you already know. Is he a better man than you? Hell no. Did you do as much as possible to love this woman 100%? By your words you did. You know who you are. You know how you conducted yourself during this marriage. You know if you were a good husband (perfection not required), so there is no reason to question this. Nothing excuses a A except abandonment.

 

If it is done, let it be done. Keep your head held high. Do not strap her down. If she wishes to do so without duress, then fine. This will benefit you in the long run.

 

This is just my opinion on a opinion forum.

[sandylee1]

People are posting based on their experiences or points of view. I see nothing wrong with that or with offering the OP advice of one kind or another.

 

A lot of cheater behaviour is standard, so it doesn't really matter whether we know Mrs . Zinger or not, we are still able to offer our insight. If her behaviour and actions lead one to think there is more than she is telling Zinger has the benefit of our insight to take whatever action he sees fit.

 

If certain action leads him to uncover the truth , then he can go full steam ahead to uncover that truth .

[Bartlett65]

I think that holding out *any* hope that it didn't go there is understandable, but totally unrealistic. You are premissing current actions with her on the supposition that there is a chance she didn't do the deed with him. It's totally understandable. Nobody really wants to face that ****ty reality, but I think that most people who have the dubious advantage of having been through this and having gained more perspective from the passage of time will agree that the writing is on the wall.

 

You need the full truth for you own sanity. Cheaters rarely just come clean of their own accord. It's a measure of what selfish ****heads they are that they'll let the person they betrayed continue to twist in the wind in order to try to salvage a shred of what they enthusiastically trashed, but that's how it works.

 

Do yourself a favor and play hardball with her and get your answers. The truth will set you free. Polygraphs are junk science, but the prospect of one might just be what makes her talk. She'll likely believe she can still manage more of the story if she tries to preempt the test, so scheduling one might start a trickle. Trickles eventually burst dams. No method of getting at the truth should be passed up. You deserve the truth. All of it. Not just the portions she thinks are managable.

[66Charger]

All of the above is true, however once you file, she owes you nothing. Not even the truth.

[aliveagain]

Assume the worst and plan for the worst, the onus is on her to prove it wasn't physical and not the other way around. She is the one that didn't honour her vows, she is the one hiding her relationship with another man, she is the one taking your money to finance an affair, she is the one with secrets, secrets hidden from you. A remorseful spouse would be doing everything it takes to save the marriage and not just what it takes to save her a$$. A polygraph and a post nuptial agreement would be the minimum I would expect from someone as shady as her.

[drifter777]

Why are we doing this? Why do we continue to do this? We all know that:

 

a) we contribute based on our personal experiences

 

b) we all have different personal experiences

 

c) those differences put many of us into separate "camps"

 

c) we are going to have disagreements about lots & lots of things

 

d) we can get heated and rip another poster

 

So, let's stop the thread-jacking over these simple, undeniable facts that each of us knows to be true.

[fellini]

OP. You may want to look at post #1045 of the thread: Wife of 31 years had an affair, my story to see the results of a BH who polygraphed himself prior to do the same to his WS.

[notbroken]

All of the above is true, however once you file, she owes you nothing. Not even the truth.

 

In my opinion, she owes him the truth about anything that happened while they were married. However, it is a debt that will likely go unpaid. She'll try to downplay the truth to everyone, even to herself to avoid being 'the bad one'. She'll blame shift and everyone will be made to believe you drove her to cheating (which is impossible).

 

You know the truth in your heart. Nothing else really matters.

[drifter777]

zinger: We know a lot about what you are thinking and your strong will to adhere to your principles. We know, and most of us understand, your deal-breaker attitude toward cheating. I'm really interested to know and understand more about how you feel right now.

 

If you are doing what I did then you have wrapped up all the hurt and anger and stuffed it in a compartment at the back of your mind. This is an automatic reaction for many men facing this very trauma. In my case I had little choice but to pack and leave on d-day. She didn't want to be married to me and, basically, tossed me out to move OM in. Like you, the shock and hurt and anger left me to rely only on my character and instinct. I left without saying a word and, for my own sake, implemented No Contact and moved in with my brother. Instinctively I knew that my own healing would be faster and more complete if I never looked at her f'ing face again. Now, we had a 6 year-old son so there would always be reason's that I would be forced to see her, but that would never violate the spirit of my vow to never see her nor mitigate the intense hatred for her that I was cultivating. This went on for 3 - 4 weeks and I was beginning to grow a scar over the wound. This was happening in large part do to the fact I didn't have to look at her or talk to her. I went from not wanting to get out of bed, unable to eat, impossible to feel joy to going out to dinner & a beer with my brother and feeling more hopeful each day. After that 3 week's our stories - yours and mine - seem about to take radically different path's.

 

She ambushed me at our apartment when I picked up my son and begged me to come home. She swore that she now knew she loved me and knew that she wanted to spend the rest of her life with me. That OM (one was ONS & one was live-in) meant nothing to her and she had sent live-in OM packing. She firmly believed she had to do what she did or she would never have been satisfied in our marriage. She told me what a good thing it was since it opened her eyes to reality and she wanted me to see it that way too. And then I made the worst mistake of my life: I came back. I continue to make excuses for myself like I was young (24) and stupid - I wanted to make a good home for my son - I was in shock - all the normal bullsh*t that lots of men tell themselves when their wife cheats on them and they are afraid to leave. For me, that's the bottom line. I was afraid of having to start my life over without her. I hoped I could see things the way she did someday. I thought I could just pretend it wasn't so bad and that time would magically heal my heart. All stupid excuses I used to justify not divorcing her. One of the saddest facts is that I was nearly "done" with her. If she had waited another couple of weeks I would have spit in her f'ing face when she went in to her "please come home" routine. But my inadvertent 180 worked perfectly. She was terrified when I went total NC because she thought I would fight for her. Each day she knew that I was floating away and it came to her that if she waited any longer I might have floated away forever. That shook her out of her fantasy-land and forced her to make a choice whether to live without me or become a wife and mother again. As you have discovered, the 180 is capable of bringing a WW to her knees - a sobbing wreck.

 

I pray that if you decide to try to reconcile with your WW that you do it for reason's other than that you are afraid of losing the only woman you love. That the security and bond you've established with her is worth swallowing your principles for. You need another reason that feels right to you.

 

From everything you have posted here I urge you to divorce her because if you don't you will soon regret it. And once you commit to trying to R it is hard for men like you to give up until you know you've given it every chance. You will suffer for a long time and it will likely take another affair to get you to realize you have to be done with her. You will always believe in your heart that she screwed him - confession, poly - whatever. If you don't divorce her those images of her having sex with OM just get worse. If you don't divorce her you will continue to discover little truths that cut your soul and you'll hear your wife say "I did tell you that" or "that never seemed important to me" or the most common line of all "I don't remember". All more lies to cover her ass.

 

To be clear, I am nearly always an advocate for the BH to divorce. I almost never get involved with threads that are about a betrayed wife. I see the two cases as radically different - from a BS perspective - and I have no credible experience with that situation. But my experience - personal and anecdotal - convince me that a BH has the best chance for healing & personal recovery if he ends the marriage and goes his own way. I firmly believe this and am unshakeable on my opinion. So understand that this is where I'm coming from and am simply offering my advice based on my knowledge.

Edited June 24, 2015 by drifter777

[BetrayedH]

OP. You may want to look at post #1045 of the thread: Wife of 31 years had an affair, my story to see the results of a BH who polygraphed himself prior to do the same to his WS.

 

Yep. They're bogus hocus pocus. The results won't mean jack crap. The parking lot confession (or perhaps confession during the test, which also happens) is the only value.

 

I would add that I recently read another example where four polygraphers were brought in to investigate a burglary that was 'almost certainly an inside job.' It was a phony scenario. Nothing had been stolen. None of the polygraphers knew that other polygraphers were also employed. Each was given a gut feeling of guilt about 1 of 4 suspects, each of whom was given a test. Each polygrapher was given suspicion about a different suspect. In all four cases, the polygrapher implicated the person that had been suggested.

Edited June 24, 2015 by BetrayedH