To bust or not to bust

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger,

 

I am not sure where you are on this as far as the actual divorce, polygraph, or anything else.

 

But there is one thing I think most of us would agree on ,and that is staying in the same house with a wife you are divorcing is about as bad as it gets, especially when she is the cheater.

 

I still cannot understand why you are gibving her the house but that is your call, but you need to get this over with asap now since you know what you are doing.

 

With your resopurces the polygraph if she is still taking it should have been easy to get done by now. Seems like you are enduring a lot more here for a longer time than is necessary.

[BetheButterfly]

Hi everyone,

 

I'll be obliged to fill all compulsory details later (to establish the context : was reading this and two other forums for a week, 40 yo male) but right now I do need some guidance, and this is a matter of urgency to me.

 

I do believe that my wife of 15 years had developed an emotional and likely a romantic connection with another man. I acknowledge that I may have been blindsided and in reality it may be a full grown affair. My intuition and knowledge of her character tell me that this had not reached that point yet. But it is going there and the outlook is not great.

 

My dilemma is that I have no actual proof, only the circumstantial evidence (changes in behaviour etc). To complicate the situation I have to go on a business trip soon. If nothing has happened yet, it may very well happen while I'm away. So my options are :

 

Confront - or I'd say have a civil conversation - now. It may stop the affair, but with no proof she can easily deny any wrongdoing and take everything underground. Even if she (with our without confession) stops the affair I (and this is critical for me) I'll live the rest of my life not knowing what would have happened if I hadn't stopped it.

 

Wait and gather proof - I may eventually get it (assuming it's ongoing or will progress to the worst possible outcome) but I will have to live the rest of my life knowing I basically enabled the affair.

 

Unfortunately I have been considering this for too long and need to make a decision asap.

 

Your timely help and wisdom will be wholeheartedly appreciated.

 

Marriage without trust and good communication simply doesn't work well.

 

If my husband suspected me of having an affair of any kind, I would appreciate him talking to me about it. That way, I can lay his fears to rest because I do not cheat on him, and I appreciate greatly that he does not cheat on me.

 

I really hope that she is not cheating on you in any way.

[m.snow]

there was solid evidence of ea affair and that's that. they've been caught kissing and cuddling. but cause you have not caught them in bed together does not mean they did not have sexual affair.

 

she cheated on you with this "ARTIST".

you're lucky the OM ran. you might have ended up like Richard Gere from Unfaithful and killed the guy.

 

-I say time to leave, Go to America and start a new-life and a wonderful career.

you can not trust and leave this woman for months abroad and expect her to still be faithful after this affair happened.

 

sell the house and burn the marital bed.

[No Limit]

there was solid evidence of ea affair and that's that. they've been caught kissing and cuddling. but cause you have not caught them in bed together does not mean they did not have sexual affair.

 

Kissing makes it physical already.

[Spectre]

So she kissed and cuddled another dude, yeah I'm on the "why the heck would you give her the house or allow her to remain in the house" boat.

 

How is she going to ever learn a lesson?

[TobyBoy]

Kissing makes it physical already.

 

I don't recall reading kissing being admitted or observed. Maybe Zinger can clarify?

[merrmeade]

I don't recall reading kissing being admitted or observed. Maybe Zinger can clarify?

"Being admitted"? As if there were any comparison between the examination of evidence in this (particular) discussion and a trial.

 

I am a BS. I've known the anger and despair that comes from the dishonor and mind-numbing disbelief of betrayal. I was lied to and gaslighted. I have never felt much sympathy for any WS. But I definitely do here.

 

OP's worst fears became reality in the painful (for OP), detailed descriptions of imagined WS/OP rendezvous. Little is known about the BS/WS relationship before or their conversations now or serious consideration of her potential remorse. She's been condemned and ridiculed. Witch hunt. Sad.

[eric1]

Who, specifically, is condemning or villifying her

[Friskyone4u]

Really do not understand how it is a "witchhunt" to no accept refusal of WW to come clean and paraise her for it . She cheated on her husband, and has decided to stonewall his efforts to get the truth and manipulate him if possible to rug sweep this

 

Should she be getting comments about her wonderful and caring behasvior towards the man who has supported in a pretty darn good lifestyle while she did not even have to work.

 

Sorry, the IS the villan in this drama. She deserves no praise.

[merrmeade]

Look, you guys. I have nothing to gain saying any of this. No agenda. I just can't stand it any more, watching all the exaggeration and lack of objectivity.

 

The only thing I feel okay about with all this is that - in general - it's better to hold a tough line with WSs. It's mostly the only way they come clean if there's something to come clean about and there usually is. So, to that end, maybe what you've been doing will work.

 

It's just that I think you all believe all the hype you've invented - which hasn't been proved. It's been like listening to a bunch of guys projecting their issues on someone in a vulnerable state. A lot of discussion about what she probably did based on what people usually do and indications, maybes and most likelies. It's the pressure to convict based on uninformed opinion and speculation that bothers me. How, in the long run, does that really help OP later believe that he did the right thing?

 

It should be COMPLETELY up to OP. He shouldn't be pressured or persuaded in his impressionable state. Are you so sure you're right? Do you really know enough to urge him in a certain direction? Is there really enough shared about the WS, their communication, her understanding, OP's state of mind, everything that's going on? It's as if sometimes, reading this thread, OP is responding to a script pre-written by a lot of drama seekers.

 

I don't have all day to go back through all the posts and prove my point. Just take the last two responses to my previous post as examples:

• Who, specifically, is condemning or villifying her I didn't use the word "vilify" in any form. I said she's been condemned, meaning she's been found guilty online for having a PA. "Ridiculed" maybe was unclear because I who cares about her dignity. She dug her own grave. But she should be condemned, ridiculed, vilified or ridiculed based on fact, not conjecture.
  
• Should she be getting comments about her wonderful and caring behasvior towards the man who has supported in a pretty darn good lifestyle while she did not even have to work. Now pray tell wtf that has to do with ANYTHING? This is YOUR agenda for god knows why. Who cares if she worked?
  
• She ... has decided to stonewall his efforts to get the truth and manipulate him if possible to rug sweep this. Well, I guess so. I really couldn't find enough information from OP to say for sure what she's doing right now except crying a lot.
  
• Sorry, the WS the villan in this drama. Oh, come on. There you go. Case in point: Making up stuff I didn't say. Of course, she's the villain!
  
• She deserves no praise. I didn't praise her or imply she should deserved any. Good grief.

Whatever. I keep saying I'm out of this thread. So I'm out (again). Just get off your high horses and freaking READ what I wrote. I said nothing about her being called a villain or vilified. I did not "praise her" for anything. I totally agree she's an idiot and a cheater. She lied to him. She hid her actions. She knew very well that she was feeling seduced and wanted to be. She was obviously moving toward the worst possible betrayal. But call it that for pete's sake - "moving toward" until there's more evidence of a PA. Obviously she doesn't deserve any defense for what is known. She needs defense for what is NOT known because everyone acts like they know and filled in the blanks.

 

I said, "I have never felt much sympathy for any WS. But I definitely do here." Sympathy is not praise. It's not defending her. I'm asking if there's anything left to the marriage to be saved!!! I'm criticizing how you're helping OP, practically making him crazy with your vivid descriptions of scenes you pretty much made up. My sympathy is because you've testified for her and convicted without solid evidence.

 

It's truth he needs. It's the rest of his life for pete's sake. Even if he doesn't get the truth, then help him deliberate based on the fact that he won't have the facts.

 

But these extrapolations... It's not right....

Edited July 16, 2015 by merrmeade

[zinger]

There is no evidence one easy or another (e.g. via confession) of kissing.

 

As for stonewalling, trickle feeding the truth and doing nothing but crying - I do have full info ava details on what I know from her. The problem is obviously what I don't know. She has not revealed anything significant that would be outside of the scope of what I know now. In other words I have all details on what I've discovered myself only.

[SpokenFor]

Hi Zinger,

 

How are you doing? I am really hoping that you get first the papers signed last week and now a poly test this week and that these two things together let you feel like you've done all the discovery and initial steps you need to do.

 

After that, I would hope you find a way (trip to US?) to step back and clear your head for a bit... you've been under enormous stress for quite a while now.

[bigman1]

I have re-read all of your posts, cryptic and plain. I am not one who is pro-reconciliation, but I am pro facts before you make a move.

 

To address some things you have said and questions that you have asked, I will paraphrase cause copying is just too tedious.

 

1. Are you giving her a free pass, which is unacceptable to you, as you have said at least twice. The answer is NO. She sees that you are prepared to cut her out of your life and making steps to do it. No bluffing, no hesitation, you have made it clear that you are not a doormat. Good for you. Glad to see a strong stance.

 

2. Divorcing. I think that you are a bit premature on this one. You posit that she has only admitted what you already know, but no more. Here is where the fact part comes to play. You don't know more. Without more tests you don't amputate.

 

3. Polygraph. That is a needed test. Maybe you take two. You need confirmation on the results. There is no pass fail, it is examiner based and they interpret the results. When I was a prosecutor, we had a polygraph guy who was always finding stuff inconclusive. You gotta do your research on your examiner and then get another one.

 

4. Cheating: I don't know about that. She seemed to have been looking up websites to get clarity on what she was doing. If you are banging someone, you don't need to get clarity on that. If you are blowing someone or hand jobbing or fingering, there really is no need for research. Really, think about that. "Dear cheating forum, I let a guy give me an O, is that cheating? " That makes no sense at all, so I am not convinced of a sexual affair.

 

OTOH,Dear cheating forum: "I'm developing feelings for someone that are confusing. I like being around them and talking to them and they make me feel good. Is that wrong?" That is different.

 

Burgeoning EA, Full EA, caressing of face, hugging, Kissing, heavy petting, sex. That is a different spectrum. Where she was on that spectrum is significant.

 

I don't know that an EA entered into with he questioning whether she was crossing the line is a deal breaker. A lot of folks, me included, never really understood the EA concept. I love yous are clearly cross the line, but before that line...well the lines are blurred.

 

I guess that my point is that pulling the trigger and committing to divorce in light of what you have disclosed, to wit: gifts and a face caress, seems a bit much. If that is truly all that happened, you guys still need work and she needs to know that she has some heavy lifting to do. In light of your decisive actions, if she is telling the truth, then you have not given her a pass. To the contrary, you have sent a strong message. Slow down, get facts, confirm, then decide how hard you want to go. This comes from me, one who does not favor R.

[BetrayedH]

I think that once it was established that Zinger's wife engaged in this "inappropriate emotional relationship" and Zinger had to discover it and bust them holding hands, caressing faces, and exchanging expensive gifts, then the burden of proof completely shifted from the BS to the WS. Zinger's wife is now an established liar and cheat and with physical contact being witnessed first-hand, the signs point to the affair becoming physical, if it hadn't already. The burden is no longer on Zinger to prove that she had a PA but on the wayward spouse to prove that she didn't. Has she done that? Nope. Apparently all of the data that would prove that she is innocent of a PA has been deleted. What has she offered to back up her words? Nothing. Instead, she has only admitted to what he already knows.

 

I find nothing "premature" about a decision to divorce here. Who wants a liar and a cheat for a spouse? They don't have kids. What's to stay for?

[66Charger]

What direction is "a bunch of guys" urging Zinger to do? Divorce his wife? That is clearly not true. PRIOR/DURING/AFTER discovery, it was Zinger who said he would divorce for a EA. Most of the LS speculation has been about the PA, which has no effect on the divorce.

 

So if divorce is imminent, caused by the facts that HE presented and believes(EA) and not speculation (PA), how exactly has he been influenced? Wouldnt trying to convince him NOT to divorce for the EA, be "influencing" him?

 

Perhaps what is really the problem is that some do not feel a divorce for a EA is warranted. Or that the EA was proven. Fair enough if that is your reasoning but dont blame the divorce thought process on a bunch of guys on LS.

 

He is also free to change his mind and he may have, if the most important person here, other than Zinger had proved NO PA

 

Only one person influenced him to start the divorce. She did. He made that call from day one.

[Friskyone4u]

Betrayed H said it perfectly.

 

With what Zinger DOES not iwthout any help from her is enough totally inappropriate behavior to divorce her, but if she wanted R the burden did pass to her and she has failed that test miserably.

 

What has she done other than refuse to tell him anything, try to manipulate his and her relatives to put pressure on him, and just cry and hope he weakens. Anything there showing her assumoing any burden of anything?????

 

Zinger, all who are posting are waiting I guess to find out what the hell is really going on. The polygraph does not seem to be scheduled, the divorce is supposedly going forward. Did you call a timeout.????

 

I do agree most of us, including myself are operating with not much specific information so everyone I guerss is projecting in some way.

[BetrayedH]

Betrayed H said it perfectly.

 

With what Zinger DOES not iwthout any help from her is enough totally inappropriate behavior to divorce her, but if she wanted R the burden did pass to her and she has failed that test miserably.

 

What has she done other than refuse to tell him anything, try to manipulate his and her relatives to put pressure on him, and just cry and hope he weakens. Anything there showing her assumoing any burden of anything?????

 

Zinger, all who are posting are waiting I guess to find out what the hell is really going on. The polygraph does not seem to be scheduled, the divorce is supposedly going forward. Did you call a timeout.????

 

I do agree most of us, including myself are operating with not much specific information so everyone I guerss is projecting in some way.

 

He said the poly was coming up within a matter of days.

[zinger]

Hi Zinger,

 

How are you doing? I am really hoping that you get first the papers signed last week and now a poly test this week and that these two things together let you feel like you've done all the discovery and initial steps you need to do.

 

After that, I would hope you find a way (trip to US?) to step back and clear your head for a bit... you've been under enormous stress for quite a while now.

 

That's basically the plan. Polygraph is on Monday. I'm not even reminding her about it though. It's entirely her choice, I haven't brought it up since the day it was rescheduled due to her being in a state that would render it futile

[zinger]

That's a great post, thank you very much. Let me please attempt to address it in general and sspecifically p2.

 

I'll start with the statement that I'm not a person that is easy to influence. It may not be the impression of kind people here who were staying with me for 2 months (I admit I'm completely unprepared for that turn in my life) but I'm not, being stubborn at. It's even been a source of constant jokes of my employees when they think I don't hear (e.g. "how many men does it take to change Mr.Zinger's mind").

 

So my decision to divorce was definitely not influenced by responses to my posts, even when they were direct and even graphical to a degree. To explain the context

without getting sentimental or too melodramatic, my FWW was literally the only person in the world I needed in my life end who's constant presence was enjoyable, welcome and required. That was the case since we "clicked" for the first time and all these years. I literally enjoyed every second of life with her.

 

So it took me a lot to start the divorce process and many times I was asking myself if I'm being rational and if I'm doing the right thing. I was literally practicing my life with her after all these events but without the divorce.

 

What I've realised that all this bond, attraction and admiration is gone. Wether this reaction is justifiable or not, this it what it is. I still care and all but that feeling is gone.Life like that well be hard for me and for her. She doesn't want a husband who shudders when she touches him. I need to know for my own self that I didn't "just let it go".

 

So controversial as it sounds the best chance to save the marriage is to kill the poisoned one. It's clear for me and she also aware of it. Best case scenario is (subject to conditions I've outlined in one of my previous posts) is that we divorce and start from scratch somewhere else, perhaps overseas.

 

Hope it makes sense.

 

I have re-read all of your posts, cryptic and plain. I am not one who is pro-reconciliation, but I am pro facts before you make a move.

 

To address some things you have said and questions that you have asked, I will paraphrase cause copying is just too tedious.

 

1. Are you giving her a free pass, which is unacceptable to you, as you have said at least twice. The answer is NO. She sees that you are prepared to cut her out of your life and making steps to do it. No bluffing, no hesitation, you have made it clear that you are not a doormat. Good for you. Glad to see a strong stance.

 

2. Divorcing. I think that you are a bit premature on this one. You posit that she has only admitted what you already know, but no more. Here is where the fact part comes to play. You don't know more. Without more tests you don't amputate.

 

3. Polygraph. That is a needed test. Maybe you take two. You need confirmation on the results. There is no pass fail, it is examiner based and they interpret the results. When I was a prosecutor, we had a polygraph guy who was always finding stuff inconclusive. You gotta do your research on your examiner and then get another one.

 

4. Cheating: I don't know about that. She seemed to have been looking up websites to get clarity on what she was doing. If you are banging someone, you don't need to get clarity on that. If you are blowing someone or hand jobbing or fingering, there really is no need for research. Really, think about that. "Dear cheating forum, I let a guy give me an O, is that cheating? " That makes no sense at all, so I am not convinced of a sexual affair.

 

OTOH,Dear cheating forum: "I'm developing feelings for someone that are confusing. I like being around them and talking to them and they make me feel good. Is that wrong?" That is different.

 

Burgeoning EA, Full EA, caressing of face, hugging, Kissing, heavy petting, sex. That is a different spectrum. Where she was on that spectrum is significant.

 

I don't know that an EA entered into with he questioning whether she was crossing the line is a deal breaker. A lot of folks, me included, never really understood the EA concept. I love yous are clearly cross the line, but before that line...well the lines are blurred.

 

I guess that my point is that pulling the trigger and committing to divorce in light of what you have disclosed, to wit: gifts and a face caress, seems a bit much. If that is truly all that happened, you guys still need work and she needs to know that she has some heavy lifting to do. In light of your decisive actions, if she is telling the truth, then you have not given her a pass. To the contrary, you have sent a strong message. Slow down, get facts, confirm, then decide how hard you want to go. This comes from me, one who does not favor R.

[Realist3]

The burden is no longer on Zinger to prove that she had a PA but on the wayward spouse to prove that she didn't. Has she done that?

 

 

Just playing devil's advocate, but exactly how do you prove a negative; especially one like that???

[oldshirt]

Just playing devil's advocate, but exactly how do you prove a negative; especially one like that???

 

It's kind of like child molestation, once the suspicion is there or the accusation has been made, the damage is done. There is no complete acquittal in the world of infidelity.

[singer23]

So controversial as it sounds the best chance to save the marriage is to kill the poisoned one. It's clear for me and she also aware of it. Best case scenario is (subject to conditions I've outlined in one of my previous posts) is that we divorce and start from scratch somewhere else, perhaps overseas.

 

I do not follow... Does this not mean that she has every reason not to come clean ever ? How do you plan to go about this ?

[BetrayedH]

Just playing devil's advocate, but exactly how do you prove a negative; especially one like that???

 

From a truly remorseful wayward spouse, I would expect to see a full accounting of the affair that included a timeline, usernames and passwords to texting apps they used, the texts themselves, and anything else that might remotely paint a picture of exactly what happened and/or didn't happen. I'd expect the wayward to be an open book and proactively trying to clear up any questions or concerns. Hell, I might even offer up the AP to tell their story so you could see that it matched my own.

 

If my marriage hinged on proving that I didn't sleep with someone, I'd be making real and concerted efforts to be the investigator. I wouldn't expect my spouse to have to dig and discover. I'd be tripping over myself. Is she doing any of that? If so, I haven't heard it here and I've been paying attention.

 

 

Her willingness to take the poly somewhat speaks to it but then again, lots of waywards make that initial agreement, expecting that they'll figure out how to get out of it or how to beat it or something (simply welcoming the delay so they can make a plan), and then when the day comes they start spewing some TT.

 

I do kinda like that Zinger hasn't even mentioned the poly since it was rescheduled. If the wife is innocent as she says and tragically still deleted all of the messages that could show she didn't do anything physical, then I'd expect her to embrace this opportunity to clear her name and save her marriage (as she supposedly wants since she blubbers on about it). Since Zinger says he hasn't mentioned it since, I can only infer that she hasn't mentioned it since either. I'd think an innocent person would see that as THE big day that the rest of the life depends upon. Strange that such an important event hasn't gotten another mention. If it were that important, would you accidentally forget about it? Unless, of course, she's just hoping and praying that Zinger forgets all about it, has quietly changed his mind, or whatever other nonsense waywards tell themselves about getting away with their ridiculous lies.

 

If I were a betting man, I'd put some money down on the WW not saying a damn thing about the poly and quietly watching the day come and go. And that'd tell me a lot about how desperate she was (not) to prove her innocence.

[clam]

zinger... You should read VeryBrokenMan's thread about taking a polygraph. He took the test himself and purposely lied to see how "reliable" the results would be if his wife ended up taking a poly. The results were abysmal. The guy doing the testing missed the lies, and detected "deception" when VBM was actually telling the truth!

 

I'm not sure you can base your decision on a polygraph.

[Realist3]

From a truly remorseful wayward spouse, I would expect to see a full accounting of the affair that included a timeline, usernames and passwords to texting apps they used, the texts themselves, and anything else that might remotely paint a picture of exactly what happened and/or didn't happen. I'd expect the wayward to be an open book and proactively trying to clear up any questions or concerns. Hell, I might even offer up the AP to tell their story so you could see that it matched my own.

 

If my marriage hinged on proving that I didn't sleep with someone, I'd be making real and concerted efforts to be the investigator. I wouldn't expect my spouse to have to dig and discover. I'd be tripping over myself. Is she doing any of that? If so, I haven't heard it here and I've been paying attention.

 

 

Her willingness to take the poly somewhat speaks to it but then again, lots of waywards make that initial agreement, expecting that they'll figure out how to get out of it or how to beat it or something (simply welcoming the delay so they can make a plan), and then when the day comes they start spewing some TT.

 

I do kinda like that Zinger hasn't even mentioned the poly since it was rescheduled. If the wife is innocent as she says and tragically still deleted all of the messages that could show she didn't do anything physical, then I'd expect her to embrace this opportunity to clear her name and save her marriage (as she supposedly wants since she blubbers on about it). Since Zinger says he hasn't mentioned it since, I can only infer that she hasn't mentioned it since either. I'd think an innocent person would see that as THE big day that the rest of the life depends upon. Strange that such an important event hasn't gotten another mention. If it were that important, would you accidentally forget about it? Unless, of course, she's just hoping and praying that Zinger forgets all about it, has quietly changed his mind, or whatever other nonsense waywards tell themselves about getting away with their ridiculous lies.

 

If I were a betting man, I'd put some money down on the WW not saying a damn thing about the poly and quietly watching the day come and go. And that'd tell me a lot about how desperate she was (not) to prove her innocence.

 

But see, none, NONE of those details have been mentioned. Perhaps it is because Zinger's first language is not English, but he has been profoundly absent of pertinent details throughout this whole thread. "I'll give the details later." Time and time again.

 

Now you are onto the poly which we both agreed doesn't tell squat.