To bust or not to bust

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I do kinda like that Zinger hasn't even mentioned the poly since it was rescheduled. If the wife is innocent as she says and tragically still deleted all of the messages that could show she didn't do anything physical, then I'd expect her to embrace this opportunity to clear her name and save her marriage (as she supposedly wants since she blubbers on about it).

I think this situation puts anyone in a very bad spot. While someone can come up with evidence that they didn't cheat, it's difficult to come up with evidence that they didn't cheat. And proving you didn't cheat is impossible, as nobody can account for every minute of every day.

 

I think when you're at this point in the narrative, just give up. It's unreasonable to expect proof of innocence. Proof of guilt is much easier, seems to me. And evidence of innocence can never be complete.

 

Just one man's opinion. The wife is in a spot where she can't really win. The husband is in a spot where nothing will meet the threshold of "proof." It's a true stalemate: given the rules of the challenge, neither side can win.

 

Time to go your separate ways.

[SpokenFor]

I disagree with where you think things stand, Shazam... I do not think this is a case of Zinger's wife saying she is innocent and being unable to prove it. I agree that would be a very difficult task in the total absence of trust, but I am reading Zinger's post to indicate he still has some degree of faith and trust -- he believes to a large extent in her remorse, for example.

 

As far as I can tell, she has not actually stated how far things went and gone right into pleas for forgiveness. I think Zinger has been very clear: she needed to be honest and at least give him the respect of being honest. It has been quite a while now since things broke, and she has avoided honesty in favor of histrionics.

 

The polygraph test is his chosen mechanism to discover the truth. It may be a flawed tool, but in the absence of any openness from his wife, he has few choices.

 

Zinger is investing huge amounts of his pride and his love for his wife in trying to find a way for the relationship to be restarted and healthy. The easiest thing for him to do would be to walk away... which is what I once did from a similar place. I applaud his willingness to put himself on the line.

[merrmeade]

But see, none, NONE of those details have been mentioned. Perhaps it is because Zinger's first language is not English, but he has been profoundly absent of pertinent details throughout this whole thread. "I'll give the details later." Time and time again.

 

Now you are onto the poly which we both agreed doesn't tell squat.

For once we agree 100%. This is what I've been trying to say.

[merrmeade]

I disagree with where you think things stand, Shazam... I do not think this is a case of Zinger's wife saying she is innocent and being unable to prove it. I agree that would be a very difficult task in the total absence of trust, but I am reading Zinger's post to indicate he still has some degree of faith and trust -- he believes to a large extent in her remorse, for example.

 

As far as I can tell, she has not actually stated how far things went and gone right into pleas for forgiveness. I think Zinger has been very clear: she needed to be honest and at least give him the respect of being honest. It has been quite a while now since things broke, and she has avoided honesty in favor of histrionics.

 

The polygraph test is his chosen mechanism to discover the truth. It may be a flawed tool, but in the absence of any openness from his wife, he has few choices.

 

Zinger is investing huge amounts of his pride and his love for his wife in trying to find a way for the relationship to be restarted and healthy. The easiest thing for him to do would be to walk away... which is what I once did from a similar place. I applaud his willingness to put himself on the line.

well, if you get that from the little we know about what he, she, they are doing and thinking. Fact is we just don't freaking know.

 

Maybe it is the language barrier but throw culture in there, too. Some cultures just don't do certain kinds of communication with themselves or others, e.g., I said/felt/did ... and she responded with ..., indicating.... I think she believes/She thinks I believe ... I told her my feelings were ... /She said she was crying because ... I think she does/does not understand how important ... is to me. Etc.

[eric1]

I disagree with where you think things stand, Shazam... I do not think this is a case of Zinger's wife saying she is innocent and being unable to prove it. I agree that would be a very difficult task in the total absence of trust, but I am reading Zinger's post to indicate he still has some degree of faith and trust -- he believes to a large extent in her remorse, for example.

 

As far as I can tell, she has not actually stated how far things went and gone right into pleas for forgiveness. I think Zinger has been very clear: she needed to be honest and at least give him the respect of being honest. It has been quite a while now since things broke, and she has avoided honesty in favor of histrionics.

 

The polygraph test is his chosen mechanism to discover the truth. It may be a flawed tool, but in the absence of any openness from his wife, he has few choices.

 

Zinger is investing huge amounts of his pride and his love for his wife in trying to find a way for the relationship to be restarted and healthy. The easiest thing for him to do would be to walk away... which is what I once did from a similar place. I applaud his willingness to put himself on the line.

 

 

He is and that's exactly what people don't get here. Logic doesn't exist with infidelity. When he find out that his wife had a boyfriend he instantly fell out of the type of love that make marriages work. He still has an underlying respect for her and if he could wave a magic wand and fall back in love he would.

 

But he is mature and honest enough to accept the fact that what she did, even to the extent that he knows, ruined the marriage. It's over. Through a poly and other recovery tasks he's just building a bank of 'stuff' so that if he can ever find the light switch to turn on the love again then he'll have what he needs to rebuild it. Without the truth that would never ever be possible. He cared enough for their marriage that even though finding this switch is extremely unlikely that he's willing to put himself out there.

[TobyBoy]

So Zinger......did she take the poly?

[zinger]

So Zinger......did she take the poly?

 

Yes. I don't have the results/report yet.

[oldshirt]

Yes. I don't have the results/report yet.

 

Sometimes the true benefits of a polygraph isn't the examiners official findings but rather your observations and the examinee' s reactions going into it.

 

Any parking lot confessions?

 

Any observations and gut instincts on your part?

[zinger]

Sometimes the true benefits of a polygraph isn't the examiners official findings but rather your observations and the examinee' s reactions going into it.

 

Any parking lot confessions?

 

Any observations and gut instincts on your part?

 

A lot. Though I don't have any breakthrough in terms of going physical or anything else that would be way outside of the scope of what I know so far. A lot of details on what I know, thoughts, feelings, timeline, etc, etc. Need time to process all of that and fit the pieces together.

All may change when I get the results I assume.

[merrmeade]

Sometimes the true benefits of a polygraph isn't the examiners official findings but rather your observations and the examinee' s reactions going into it.

 

Any parking lot confessions?

 

Any observations and gut instincts on your part?

I don't remember OP ever confirming this phenomenon of the "parking lot" confession. Maybe he got it and just didn't have anything to say about it. For me, this thread was the first time I'd ever heard of it, so considering also this is a very long thread, maybe we should revisit the explanation - what it is, why it happens, the value ands significance. Maybe also the possible forms it could take.

 

I'll risk getting it wrong just to get it started but would appreciate correction/amplification:

 

Apparently the stress of being 'found out' via the polygraph test prompts people who've been lyiing to confess in the "parking lot" before going into the office for the test. This happens because the person realizes the test will expose the lie(s), so confessing to the person in the 'parking lot' is better than to a stranger. The reality of being there, no escape, is the catalyst.

 

Please correct if it's wrong or incomplete.

[BetrayedH]

I don't remember OP ever confirming this phenomenon of the "parking lot" confession. Maybe he got it and just didn't have anything to say about it. For me, this thread was the first time I'd ever heard of it, so considering also this is a very long thread, maybe we should revisit the explanation - what it is, why it happens, the value ands significance. Maybe also the possible forms it could take.

 

I'll risk getting it wrong just to get it started but would appreciate correction/amplification:

 

Apparently the stress of being 'found out' via the polygraph test prompts people who've been lyiing to confess in the "parking lot" before going into the office for the test. This happens because the person realizes the test will expose the lie(s), so confessing to the person in the 'parking lot' is better than to a stranger. The reality of being there, no escape, is the catalyst.

 

Please correct if it's wrong or incomplete.

 

I think you got it right.

 

I think what also happens is that waywards "confess" in hopes that the confession will help them get out of the test. "There's no need for a test; I just confessed everything." Sadly, it's too often just more trickle-truth. Standard advice is to make them take the test anyway.

 

Zinger, I'd once again caution you about how much you allow the results to influence anything. I'd encourage you not to even look at them except that I know that's unrealistic at this point. These things are not reliable. It may say that she was lying when she wasn't. And it may say that she was truthful when she wasn't. Whatever additional information you got out of her prior to the test (or perhaps during the test - in the form of her answers) is all you're going to get out of this exercise. Consider studying more about them before you put any faith in the results.

[zinger]

I don't think or hope the results of test will be my smoking gun either way. I do hope ( I admit irrationally) they will be conclusive one way or another.

 

My understating based on my study of this forum that a "parking lot confession" constitutes a full (or reading BetrayedH now -'partial) confession of anything that was not known to me before (as I have made it very clear to her before that facts that I discover myself as opposite to her giving then to me voluntarily make things only worse) or equally refusal to do the test whatsoever.

 

Sticking to the facts:

1) She didn't try to avoid the test at all. The only thing she asked me is to accompany her there and back. As you may guess, these days I do not like to go out together at all, which is anther bloody trigger for me, bit this time I decided to grant her wish and went with her (waited outside e.g. I was not present when she did the test)

 

2) I have had a feeling which had been confirmed by her throughout the subsequent discussion that she perhaps subconsciously expected that I will cancel the test. I asked her if she was really considering me not being serious about the whole thing even after the divorce papers went through and she told me she knows how grave things are. She did realize the marriage is lost, but for some reason she read not able to fully comprehend how much I distrust her now - that is until the test. She realised that as she said when she was sitting in that chair and total stranger is asking her in monotone voice questions that she wouldn't be comfortable if her mother was asking her. And as she said she knew that this is happening with my approval while 2-3 months ago I'd wipe the floor with anyone who'd date to ask her that. Partially she admitted this is because she used to have my absolute trust and can not just toggle this off especially as we are still under the same roof (so , to those who were suggesting this is not the best situation - seems you are right)

 

3) All of that lead to her giving me all the information (timeline, motives, events) as a single feed eve to end. As I mentioned however this is all more details on what I know already.

 

4) My biggest pain point right now is that I do actually believe in ask the above up to the point where she claims nothing else (physical) happened. At this point I just stop believing her. I can't pinpoint why - the choice of words, the body language, I don't know. Or perhaps as simple as this: I'm not as sophisticated in all this relationship stuff as some of you clearly are. For me, based on the "other people knowledge" it's relatively simple. She likes/fella in love with another man, smells with him and either leaves her husband or stays because the other man dumps her. So if I was her I'd simply say "I know I screwed up and hurt you add I know your don't tolerate this but I didn't sleep with him so it's not as bad as full affair absurd maybe you can try to forgive me". I'd be saying this again and again and I'm not hearing this from her.

 

Mermeade is right, cultural or not it's very hard for me to openly writhe about all of this. But now I interested if I can express #3 above on that way.

[eric1]

Your gut is right with regards to #4.

 

Why is it right? If it's factually right then it was a physical affair. If it's wrong and there was no physical then what your body is telling you is that an emotional affair is a deal breaker. Your trust is gone. Kaput.

 

I'm the same way (Or atleast I am now). Our lives these days are so busy the only way that I can explain it is that I feel a swarm of bees is flying around my head. A wife is a partner. You both exist to make that swarm of bees smaller. To bring each other peace, joy and to be the reward at the end of the day for surviving the swarm of bees. They are not there to back up a wheelbarrow and dumb a pile of beehives on top of the bees that are already swarming around you head.

 

Your story does make me very sad. I think you are intrinsically a good person and I believe that your wife was a good person until she made a decision not to be. When a good person decides to not be a good person it's tragic since deep down they'll be their own worse critic. She's dealing with those consequences now, and I hope that she makes the decision to become a good person again for her own sake.

[italianjob]

Her willingness and confidence in taking the test suggest that she "feels" innocent, at least to some degree.

Her body language (you know her well, so I think your gut is trustworthy) suggests that she also "feels" guilty, at least to some degree.

 

Certain behaviours (expensive gift, her running away when "caught", the OM avoiding any contact and disappearing) point at much more than holding hands.

 

I think it may be possible that there were sexual acts involved (she feels "guilty"), but maybe they didn't have full intercourse, or hadn't yet (she feels "innocent").

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

Well the debate goes on and one can only assume that since you did the polygraph you do have some intention on paying attention to the results or why do it.

There are PHD MC therapists who would have told you that instead of divorcing your wife for cheating you should have woo'd her, bought her presents, let her continue her affair, kiss her so long when she wEnt to OM, and just shower her with kindness. Thankfully, those idiots are in A MINORITY> The majority of MC would tell you to demand NC and all the rest.

 

The same is true for the polygraph. no one here is going to change anyones mind. Those that think the results are worthless and those that think they are reliable are not going to "reconcile".

 

What i am surprised at is that you do not have the results yet. maybe you just have not shared, but I don't understand why it would take days.

 

Good luck

[BetrayedH]

Those that think the results are worthless and those that think they are reliable are not going to "reconcile".

 

With due respect, the above is an assumption. I have no objection to reconciliation in the right circumstances. In fact, I've been quite a cheerleader for it. And I fought hard to make a reconciliation happen in my own situation. I just don't have faith in the subjective opinion of a polygrapher enough to base major life decisions upon it.

 

For what it's worth, I still think it's possible that Zinger's wife went no further than what was disclosed. Her willigness and follow-thru on the poly speaks to that. It would be a travesty to have her go through all of this, be truly remorseful, be honest, pin her hopes on a poly to prove it, just to have a polygrapher say "deception." It would equally be a travesty to have the polygrapher say she was honest and watch Zinger torn about forgiveness when the reality is that she pulled off more lies.

[Buckeye2]

Her willingness and confidence in taking the test suggest that she "feels" innocent, at least to some degree.

Her body language (you know her well, so I think your gut is trustworthy) suggests that she also "feels" guilty, at least to some degree.

 

Certain behaviours (expensive gift, her running away when "caught", the OM avoiding any contact and disappearing) point at much more than holding hands.

 

I think it may be possible that there were sexual acts involved (she feels "guilty"), but maybe they didn't have full intercourse, or hadn't yet (she feels "innocent").

 

I think Italianjob pretty much nailed it. Your marriage was so strong that it gave your wife the confidence to push some boundaries. Your love made her feel so secure that you would take her back even if you caught her.

 

You then made it clear that was not the case and that you were on to her: “She asked me why I'm back early but she didn't look too thrilled about it. I couldn't resist and told her "because I have a grave feeling and concerns about my family live.””

 

That’s when I think she decided to pull the plug. The watch may have very well been a parting gift.

 

She went to a lot of trouble to clear the time to be with the OM in the mall (told her boss that she had to leave early and told you she had to work late). If the affair was going to continue you would use that time to have sex. Meeting in public and touching a cheek fits better with the affair ending and good bye.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Buckeye2

[SpokenFor]

Hi Zinger,

 

I am glad you are reaching the end of this phase. You didn't clearly state whether the polygraph test included direct questions on what happened physically but I am sure it did, and you should now have the results. Can you share those results? That is, do the results say she was telling the truth about the extent of the affair?

 

I am sure this whole thing is exhausting, and I hope you can get away from it now to get some perspective. You know the aspects of your wife that you loved before, and if this discovery phase is over, perhaps now you can get some calm perspective on whether those aspects of her are still meaningful for you. I hope that she can also stop with the histrionics and begin working to begin another marriage with you.

 

What is the timing for when the divorce is final? Does it make sense to live separately until that time? If you don't even want to go out in public with her now, might make sense to separate and then see if you can reignite feelings for her (if you so wish).

[zinger]

Answering yours and Spoken4 questions on results. As they have told me, it

takes 1-2 business days to process the results and write the report. The reason is that they have basically 3 independent teams: consultants to work with the requestor, ones who actually do the test and a separate team to process the results. All this to avoid personal impressions and viewpoints. Then they'll call me to have a meeting and walk me through, hopefully within hours from now.

 

The questions were very specific and some were very specific on the physical side. The rest were on the scope of the affair, her state of mind and intentions. I won't share the exact questions and detailed results (based on the samples they showed me they are per question) bit will share the total outcome.

 

 

 

Zinger

 

Well the debate goes on and one can only assume that since you did the polygraph you do have some intention on paying attention to the results or why do it.

There are PHD MC therapists who would have told you that instead of divorcing your wife for cheating you should have woo'd her, bought her presents, let her continue her affair, kiss her so long when she wEnt to OM, and just shower her with kindness. Thankfully, those idiots are in A MINORITY> The majority of MC would tell you to demand NC and all the rest.

 

The same is true for the polygraph. no one here is going to change anyones mind. Those that think the results are worthless and those that think they are reliable are not going to "reconcile".

 

What i am surprised at is that you do not have the results yet. maybe you just have not shared, but I don't understand why it would take days.

 

Good luck

[zinger]

You are right, and btw I often forget you cannot read my mind - when I post I somehow assume that things obvious to me are equally obvious to you ask, which is not the case.

 

With no court intervention, the divorce is granted within 6 months, subjects to financials and other dependencies sorted. Lawyers can apply for the expedited process however this is granted only if there is a compelling reason (leaving country, the spouse is in jail, etc) and both parties need legal representation.

 

Separation is definitely the next step, though I confess it feels like a point of no return for both of us. She swears that even if I move out she'd be there for me and will keep trying to get me back but I think that's unrealistic.

 

 

 

Hi Zinger,

 

I am glad you are reaching the end of this phase. You didn't clearly state whether the polygraph test included direct questions on what happened physically but I am sure it did, and you should now have the results. Can you share those results? That is, do the results say she was telling the truth about the extent of the affair?

 

I am sure this whole thing is exhausting, and I hope you can get away from it now to get some perspective. You know the aspects of your wife that you loved before, and if this discovery phase is over, perhaps now you can get some calm perspective on whether those aspects of her are still meaningful for you. I hope that she can also stop with the histrionics and begin working to begin another marriage with you.

 

What is the timing for when the divorce is final? Does it make sense to live separately until that time? If you don't even want to go out in public with her now, might make sense to separate and then see if you can reignite feelings for her (if you so wish).

Edited July 21, 2015 by zinger

[zinger]

This is exactly how my first and only appointment ended up.

 

 

There are PHD MC therapists who would have told you that instead of divorcing your wife for cheating you should have woo'd her, bought her presents, let her continue her affair, kiss her so long when she wEnt to OM, and just shower her with kindness.

[zinger]

Exactly. It's "us against the whole world" until one day you find out there is no "us".

 

 

Your gut is right with regards to #4.

 

Why is it right? If it's factually right then it was a physical affair. If it's wrong and there was no physical then what your body is telling you is that an emotional affair is a deal breaker. Your trust is gone. Kaput.

 

I'm the same way (Or atleast I am now). Our lives these days are so busy the only way that I can explain it is that I feel a swarm of bees is flying around my head. A wife is a partner. You both exist to make that swarm of bees smaller. To bring each other peace, joy and to be the reward at the end of the day for surviving the swarm of bees. They are not there to back up a wheelbarrow and dumb a pile of beehives on top of the bees that are already swarming around you head.

 

Your story does make me very sad. I think you are intrinsically a good person and I believe that your wife was a good person until she made a decision not to be. When a good person decides to not be a good person it's tragic since deep down they'll be their own worse critic. She's dealing with those consequences now, and I hope that she makes the decision to become a good person again for her own sake.

[zinger]

Test results are (the digest):

- Answers to the questions on intentions towards the om and me, is this a first time, it's she still seeing him, etc have a high probability of truth (very likely to be true)

- Answers to the questions about lying and physical agents are inconclusive (possibly true).

- Answers to control questions were not clear enough for successful baseline (also inconclusive)

[oldshirt]

Test results are (the digest):

- Answers to the questions on intentions towards the om and me, is this a first time, it's she still seeing him, etc have a high probability of truth (very likely to be true)

- Answers to the questions about lying and physical agents are inconclusive (possibly true).

- Answers to control questions were not clear enough for successful baseline (also inconclusive)

 

How about in layman's terms?

[drifter777]

Test results are (the digest):

- Answers to the questions on intentions towards the om and me, is this a first time, it's she still seeing him, etc have a high probability of truth (very likely to be true)

- Answers to the questions about lying and physical agents are inconclusive (possibly true).

- Answers to control questions were not clear enough for successful baseline (also inconclusive)

So "physical agents" means sex?