To bust or not to bust

[merrmeade]

I wonder about those that give reconciliation advice to Zinger, would give that same advice to a broken man, now or 8 months ago.

No. Nobody should be advised to reconcile as a general rule, I think now. It's too hard with questionable returns. Example of the broken man is a good one. Most every BS is broken after d-day. If WS doesn't immediately and effectively open up, it can be even more excruciating. BSs are fragile for a long time. Trickle truth or worse can be deeply damaging. And the relationship is still not the same as before. It can never be the same again. And, as suggested, if the person is very broken, in fact, it's cruel to encourage reconciliation without a strong indication that certain things are in place.

 

But I also don't understand recommending complete rupture without enough details about the people or the situation or surmising what "would have" happened i(f she'd continued with the EA).

[eric1]

How did her boyfriend find out that they had been busted?

 

I'm just trying to work out when all the messages were deleted or if there is more. If there is a phone record, fine. If she sent emails then that means in her devastated state she still managed to have there wherewithal to delete all communication. To me that's different than someone who regularly kept deleting messages because of increasing inappropriate discussion. Did she ever come clean about Kik?

[merrmeade]

How did her boyfriend find out that they had been busted?

 

I'm just trying to work out when all the messages were deleted or if there is more. If there is a phone record, fine. If she sent emails then that means in her devastated state she still managed to have there wherewithal to delete all communication. To me that's different than someone who regularly kept deleting messages because of increasing inappropriate discussion. Did she ever come clean about Kik?

But software can retrieve deleted messages. Didn't she hand over her phone for that?

[eric1]

But software can retrieve deleted messages. Didn't she hand over her phone for that?

 

 

He was never able to or never did, or atleast that's what I recall. His communication retrieval consisted of some undeleted text files that she used to compose emails to her boyfriend.

[66Charger]

There is so much missing information here. Unfortunately, I dont think the OP can fill in the blanks. It may be at the point where LS has helped him as much as it could, and I believe everyone has been helpful in some way.

 

Whatever path you choose, I hope it ends in peace.

 

Strength and Honor

[eric1]

How ya holding up buddy?

[zinger]

How ya holding up buddy?

 

Thanks for asking. Considering the circumstances I'm ok. Realised that in all likelihood I'm not getting any more of a key info I need. So I just waited till my FWW recovered from the test and everything else that eventuated, jumped in car and just cruising down the coast. Alone. First time in all these years.

 

Will be doing so until Monday at least. Some people (some of them I barely know) reached out to me offering support and "some info" (as rumours spread) but I assume they are just gossip hungry so not inn the hurry to meet them).

[eric1]

Thanks for asking. Considering the circumstances I'm ok. Realised that in all likelihood I'm not getting any more of a key info I need. So I just waited till my FWW recovered from the test and everything else that eventuated, jumped in car and just cruising down the coast. Alone. First time in all these years.

 

Will be doing so until Monday at least. Some people (some of them I barely know) reached out to me offering support and "some info" (as rumours spread) but I assume they are just gossip hungry so not inn the hurry to meet them).

 

Cool man. You deserve the break.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Zinger, Good to know that you are OK but I am sure that there would be a lot of qualifying behind that simple statement which will necessarily remain in the background. I hope, as I am sure others also would, that things start to become better for you as you ponder your future course of action and do things(Like going for a drive along the coast) for yourself, which have a soothing effect on your psyche and help you heal.

 

I had a suggestion to make to you to consider when you are in a better frame of mind and that is as follows. You could proceed with divorce after having a discussion with your wife about how the two of you could be together again if She so desires. The first would be that she give you a complete history of her affair including whether it went to a PA or involved sexual acts of any kind with her OM. the other is that after a cooling off period you would be open to considering a fresh marriage with her only if she wooed you vigorously to show her complete devotion to you. I know that firstly, if her affair went to a PA then it is a deal breaker for you but you do not have to let her know that. As it is her worst fear that you would divorce her would have already happened. Secondly, if she agrees to put in the effort to woo you all over again without your leaning towards her initially, then it could be proof of her sincerity and deep love for you. Anything short of this would not gel with you. Just a thought. Till then I wish you the very best in your endeavour to overcome the terrible effects of this deception.

[merrmeade]

Hi Zinger, Good to know that you are OK but I am sure that there would be a lot of qualifying behind that simple statement which will necessarily remain in the background. I hope, as I am sure others also would, that things start to become better for you as you ponder your future course of action and do things(Like going for a drive along the coast) for yourself, which have a soothing effect on your psyche and help you heal.

 

I had a suggestion to make to you to consider when you are in a better frame of mind and that is as follows. You could proceed with divorce after having a discussion with your wife about how the two of you could be together again if She so desires. The first would be that she give you a complete history of her affair including whether it went to a PA or involved sexual acts of any kind with her OM. the other is that after a cooling off period you would be open to considering a fresh marriage with her only if she wooed you vigorously to show her complete devotion to you. I know that firstly, if her affair went to a PA then it is a deal breaker for you but you do not have to let her know that. As it is her worst fear that you would divorce her would have already happened. Secondly, if she agrees to put in the effort to woo you all over again without your leaning towards her initially, then it could be proof of her sincerity and deep love for you. Anything short of this would not gel with you. Just a thought. Till then I wish you the very best in your endeavour to overcome the terrible effects of this deception.

How reasonable all this sounds, but you know what? I'll bet I'm not the first BS to read this and go, "Yep. Yep. Again, yep. Been there. Did that. Said that."

 

And then we get the 'truth' and whatever else we demanded as "proof of...sincerity and deep love." We start our 'fresh marriage' together. But then, oops! Triggers. Mind movies. New questions and other stuff. Need to talk about the affair(s). And therein separates the loving, committed, clear-eyed adults from the kids in arrested development.

 

Theoretically (fyi - this is NOT within my realm of experience) the loving, committed, clear-eyed adults see and feel your pain, understand that it is not over for you and accept and embrace their role in the new, difficult and painful stage, which has begun.

 

The adolescents in arrested development, however, feel only their own pain, i.e., shame. They are shocked and dismayed that you still need to talk about it - a lot. They may even interpret this need as revenge and punishment. They feel flogged every time you cry or plead.

 

And so forth. Maybe divorce seems like a clean break to everyone. Maybe you think that drawing a straight line in the sand makes it clear. But it just doesn't matter. It's a lot more than wooing. You have been deeply injured by the deception on so many levels even if there was no PA. The WS must dig deep and have the maturity, love and integrity to work for what it takes to make you trust again and recapture that vulnerability. Anything less is roommates with benefits.

[merrmeade]

P.S.

Not saying it can't be done. There are a handful of people on LS who have become this kind of remorseful WS with their sleeves rolled up and ready to take on anything their beloveds need from them or who are BSs reconciling with this kind of remorseful spouse.

 

Just saying it's that hard. And rare.

[zinger]

Eric,

 

Yes she did come clean about kik, e.g. she admitted that she used out to communicate with him, that it was his (she never heard about it before, and she didn't know its reputation as affair tool. Neither did I , I'm calling it an affair tool based on feedback here). Apparently kik messages can't be (easily) recovered after it's is removed.

 

In terms of how did he find out: I have asked these questions over and over again, mostly from "have you been in contact with him since"? The storyline I've got is:

- She claims that when I called her before the car park she realised she is busted or almost busted and they parted in a hurry. So he had probably figured out at that time.

- He had never contacted her since on phone or email and she deleted her kik account.

 

 

How did her boyfriend find out that they had been busted?

 

I'm just trying to work out when all the messages were deleted or if there is more. If there is a phone record, fine. If she sent emails then that means in her devastated state she still managed to have there wherewithal to delete all communication. To me that's different than someone who regularly kept deleting messages because of increasing inappropriate discussion. Did she ever come clean about Kik?

[zinger]

That's probably a mother of all questions (besides "why" and "how far").

Divorced or not, I'm by far not the nice loving family man I used to be. All this "signs of love" as call it are gone, I have to force myself not to be spiteful, bau communications are almost not existent and frequently I have to leave room or house in a hurry in order not to say out do something I will regret.

 

She is saying she understands and although this killing get inside, she's ready to face that for as long as it takes. However I think it's reasonable to expect she's - one day- will have enough.

 

So what's the point ?

 

 

 

How reasonable all this sounds, but you know what? I'll bet I'm not the first BS to read this and go, "Yep. Yep. Again, yep. Been there. Did that. Said that."

 

And then we get the 'truth' and whatever else we demanded as "proof of...sincerity and deep love." We start our 'fresh marriage' together. But then, oops! Triggers. Mind movies. New questions and other stuff. Need to talk about the affair(s). And therein separates the loving, committed, clear-eyed adults from the kids in arrested development.

 

Theoretically (fyi - this is NOT within my realm of experience) the loving, committed, clear-eyed adults see and feel your pain, understand that it is not over for you and accept and embrace their role in the new, difficult and painful stage, which has begun.

 

The adolescents in arrested development, however, feel only their own pain, i.e., shame. They are shocked and dismayed that you still need to talk about it - a lot. They may even interpret this need as revenge and punishment. They feel flogged every time you cry or plead.

 

And so forth. Maybe divorce seems like a clean break to everyone. Maybe you think that drawing a straight line in the sand makes it clear. But it just doesn't matter. It's a lot more than wooing. You have been deeply injured by the deception on so many levels even if there was no PA. The WS must dig deep and have the maturity, love and integrity to work for what it takes to make you trust again and recapture that vulnerability. Anything less is roommates with benefits.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Merrmeade, Thank you for your response to my post. I appreciate your point of view and I have to say that since I have never been a BS or a WS my perspective of infidelity does not dovetail with that of those who have had a bitter experience of this devastating human condition. I guess the views of most people here is subjective where as I am like an observer, on the outside looking in. Also as I have mentioned in another thread, I am an old man and my perspective is not as sharp and well defined as it was when I was younger. It is much more diffuse and the contours of things observed are more rounded and soft.

 

From my position things like infidelity do not stand out as black and white. It is the same with human beings. They come in many hues and shades and no two human beings are exactly alike. Also, no human being deserves to be labelled a complete blackguard or a complete saint. All of us have our good points and bad points. What I am trying to say here is that if person A is caught cheating and is known to be a serial cheater then his or her case would be very different from person B who has never cheated before but unfortunately gets caught up in a situation where he or she falls prey to the machinations of a player. I have found that on this forum people have a rigid template like the so called Cheater's Handbook and they fit all cases of people caught cheating within the frame work of this template. No matter the person does not fit in neatly. He or she is simply stuffed into the suitcase which is then locked somehow. My own thinking is that people who cheat have characteristics which match that of others to the extent of ninety per cent, but there is a ten percent difference. This is due to the uniqueness of the individual. We must allow for this ten per cent and treat each case of infidelity as a stand alone case.

 

In the case of Zinger's wife( and I may may be completely off course here) i think she did not start out with the specific intention of cheating. She got caught up in a situation where she probably genuinely wanted to help a young man struggling to be recognized and because of her love of art, thought she could really make a material difference in his fledgling career. That this endeavour on her part turned into an EA/PA(?) was a result she had probably never intended or expected. On the other hand the artist guy seemed to be a player and he exploited a situation which was slanted in his favour to the hilt. He probably played on her motherly instincts to get close to her emotionally and then turned on the charm. He may have done this before with other hapless ladies. I am not trying to minimize the huge betrayal that Zinger's wife perpetrated on him. As an adult who had been in a stable marriage for 14 or 15 years she should have been more savvy and nipped any romantic efforts by the artist in the bud. She failed to do so and the emotional high that she got from the romantic attention completely overshadowed her sensibilities. That led to the present situation where she is now on the verge of divorce and her whole world as she knew it is collapsing around her feet.

 

The question that now arises is whether she should be given a second chance. This is something between Zinger and his wife as it is a very personal and intimate decision. Only Zinger truly knows his wife thoroughly enough to know whether she is being sincere and genuine in her efforts to repair the damage to the relationship or not. He will have to dig deep into his subconscious mind to come up with an answer to this question. The true polygraph is his own subconscious mind. I hope that gives some background to where I am coming from. Warm Wishes to all and sorry for the thread jack Zinger. My apologies!

Edited July 31, 2015 by Just a Guy

[fellini]

The point, perhaps, is that as long as you want to be with this woman, and can accept that, you do so. And she has only to do the same.

 

If one day she will have had enough, this is outside your ability to control.

And this has nothing to do with her past.

 

She might "have had enough" of you because of your treatment to her directly related to the A, or she might have "had enough" of you based on the suits you choose to wear to work.

 

If anyone of us made the decision to stay or go, merely on the chance that the other person might "be done" with us - and thus "what's the point" we would never be with anybody.

 

Love is a leap of faith. Pure and simple. The point is then, to do what you feel is best to do, under the circumstances, and to make sure this is your authentic decision. Nothing more. But definitely NOTHING LESS.

 

That's probably a mother of all questions (besides "why" and "how far").

Divorced or not, I'm by far not the nice loving family man I used to be. All this "signs of love" as call it are gone, I have to force myself not to be spiteful, bau communications are almost not existent and frequently I have to leave room or house in a hurry in order not to say out do something I will regret.

 

She is saying she understands and although this killing get inside, she's ready to face that for as long as it takes. However I think it's reasonable to expect she's - one day- will have enough.

 

So what's the point ?

[Buckeye2]

In terms of how did he find out: I have asked these questions over and over again, mostly from "have you been in contact with him since"? The storyline I've got is:

- She claims that when I called her before the car park she realised she is busted or almost busted and they parted in a hurry. So he had probably figured out at that time.

 

What’s sad about this is that it’s an obvious lie and it doesn’t matter if she did call him. Under those circumstances anyone would.

 

She just had an emotional meeting with the OM to say goodbye (which I tend to believe). She sees you by her car and her life is now over. Once she’s sure you’re not following her who is she going to reach out to? Who is the most relevant person to share that information with? She had just walked away from him. Who is still on her mind and who would care most about the information?

 

Let’s say it was only an EA. She gives OM a parting gift and tells him they can never contact each other again because her husband is suspicious and she wants to save her marriage. Minutes later their busted, her marriage is over and she doesn’t contact the OM? Her husband and the OM are in the same mall and she doesn’t contact him?

 

In my opinion she contacted the OM in shock and pain then she called her girlfriend to gossip and ask for help.

 

He had never contacted her since on phone or email and she deleted her kik account.

 

This could be true but that initial “Oh $hit” contact was made. It would be a reflex. Anyone would do that and it wasn’t a romantic conversation. Its only significance is that she thinks it might be a deal breaker so she lying about it.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Buckeye2

[66Charger]

When someone can not tell the truth, even to save their own ass, that is how they are. I mean, at some time you have got to realise the ridiculousness of your statements, get out of self preservation mode and resign yourself to just sitting someone down, looking them in the eye and just telling it like it is.

 

When someone who is unfaithful can do that, it proves that the cheating is out of character. A one off. By not doing so, they are demonstrating to you that their self preservation is more important than integrity.

 

This is who they are. And always will be.

 

She threw the damn test. Period

[Buckeye2]

She claims that when I called her before the car park she realised she is busted or almost busted and they parted in a hurry. So he had probably figured out at that time.

 

Your wife had her girlfriend call you to find out if it was physically safe for her to come home.

 

Her story is that the OM figured out that she was or probably was busted and he was fine with not knowing if she was beaten to a pulp or not? No curiosity at all on his part? He must not have cared about her at all.

 

I’ve read the wayward boards and they freak out if their AP just disappears especially if they could be in danger.

 

I’m not suggesting this but it would be fun to tell your wife how incensed you are about the OM’s total indifference to her welfare (safety) after he used her emotionally and changed your marriage forever. So you are going to beat him up. Then see if her story changes.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Buckeye2

[TobyBoy]

What’s sad about this is that it’s an obvious lie and it doesn’t matter if she did call him. Under those circumstances anyone would.

 

She just had an emotional meeting with the OM to say goodbye (which I tend to believe). She sees you by her car and her life is now over. Once she’s sure you’re not following her who is she going to reach out to? Who is the most relevant person to share that information with? She had just walked away from him. Who is still on her mind and who would care most about the information?

 

Let’s say it was only an EA. She gives OM a parting gift and tells him they can never contact each other again because her husband is suspicious and she wants to save her marriage. Minutes later their busted, her marriage is over and she doesn’t contact the OM? Her husband and the OM are in the same mall and she doesn’t contact him?

 

In my opinion she contacted the OM in shock and pain then she called her girlfriend to gossip and ask for help.

 

 

 

This could be true but that initial “Oh $hit” contact was made. It would be a reflex. Anyone would do that and it wasn’t a romantic conversation. Its only significance is that she thinks it might be a deal breaker so she lying about it.

 

I agree 100%!!! She's lying!!!

[singer23]

That's probably a mother of all questions (besides "why" and "how far").

Divorced or not, I'm by far not the nice loving family man I used to be. All this "signs of love" as call it are gone, I have to force myself not to be spiteful, bau communications are almost not existent and frequently I have to leave room or house in a hurry in order not to say out do something I will regret.

 

She is saying she understands and although this killing get inside, she's ready to face that for as long as it takes. However I think it's reasonable to expect she's - one day- will have enough.

 

So what's the point ?

 

 

 

Since she is hoping to get back together after your anger subsides, she is never going to tell you the truth..

 

Take that option away from her. I am not sure if you told her this but tell her that you cannot trust her and she kept on lying even in a polygraph..There is absolutely no way she told you the complete truth.

 

She is saying she understands and although this killing get inside, she's ready to face that for as long as it takes. However I think it's reasonable to expect she's - one day- will have enough.

 

Just realize how fake and hollow this sounds ?

 

Did you ever get into the anger phase with her ? Just tell her that you do not believe her at all and her attempts to keep lying killed any love you had for her.

[66Charger]

What is the point of asking questions after a polygraph?

.

[eric1]

Your wife had her girlfriend call you to find out if it was physically safe for her to come home.

 

Her story is that the OM figured out that she was or probably was busted and he was fine with not knowing if she was beaten to a pulp or not? No curiosity at all on his part? He must not have cared about her at all.

 

I’ve read the wayward boards and they freak out if their AP just disappears especially if they could be in danger.

 

I’m not suggesting this but it would be fun to tell your wife how incensed you are about the OM’s total indifference to her welfare (safety) after he used her emotionally and changed your marriage forever. So you are going to beat him up. Then see if her story changes.

 

This is why this does not sit well with me as well. She may have had a suspicion, but the suspicion was not validated until she saw Zing in the parking lot, as evidenced by her emotions.

[TobyBoy]

This is why this does not sit well with me as well. She may have had a suspicion, but the suspicion was not validated until she saw Zing in the parking lot, as evidenced by her emotions.

 

The PI witnessed the gift exchange. He would have witnessed the call she received and her reaction. Right?

[SpokenFor]

Zinger, I am very glad you've gotten away and I really hope you don't come back to this site until Monday at the earliest!

 

To the other posters who are hammering away at the evidence and parsing the posts, and suggesting "it might be fun to..." question his wife in some way: can we please chill out a bit? This isn't a court case, isn't a crime drama where we learn all the details in the end. I am a former BS myself and I'm with you -- I'd like to know even more -- but parsing every second-hand posting about their conversations to try to find some evidence that she is lying seems pointless to me.

 

Zinger has done a lot of painful work and gotten a lot of answers, and is now feeling his way through an unfamiliar emotional process to understand what a new relationship with this woman would mean for him and his happiness in life. Zinger by now has a pretty good read on what kind of woman his wife is, what kind of wife she wants to be for him, and is trying to decide whether it makes sense to start a new relationship. I for one will wait to see if he has any observations or questions for us as a group.

 

I am confident we all are "on his side" and want to see him come through this to a happier life!

[TX-SC]

So, she was giving him gifts, including a designer watch? Prior to DDay, what gifts were you receiving from her? What watch did she give YOU?