To bust or not to bust

[eric1]

The PI witnessed the gift exchange. He would have witnessed the call she received and her reaction. Right?

 

We do know she was on the phone - she needed to call her friend to give her a ride home or some such thing. She easily could have Kik'd then.

 

And Zing, Kik is recoverable even if it's deleted (in many instances)

 

Belkasoft: Digital Evidence Extraction Software for Computer Forensic Investigations

[drifter777]

3) I called the guy (wanted to confront both of them and needed a witness) and went there. Located her car (took a while, no GPS in undercover parking) and called the guy. He was able to get there before me.

 

He confirmed she is meeting the same male (artist) in the cafe, they were holding hands, FWW gave him a small box and touched his cheek and he did the same.

 

4) I went to the identified cafe, however they were not there anymore (came too late). I raced to her car, called her while leaning at the bonnet and asked about her location. The response was "leaving work to go home". I suggested to hurry up as I'm 5 minutes from home and need to talk.

 

5).FWW entered the parking, saw me and just turned and went back to the mall. Breaking my own promise - the look on her face was all the proof I needed.

 

6) I went home and started packing my "travel" case but stopped half way. Don't remember what I was going next, this state of mind was interrupted by the call to my cell from FWW best (female ) friend. Apparently FWW called her as she was to shaken and in tears to drive.

She (friend ) asked if it is safe to bring FWW home (I assume she thought I could be violent ).

 

7) FWW came home crying, I told her the facts I had and she confessed to "inappropriate emotional involvement" (quote ). Swears nothing sexual ever happened.

 

8) She was hysterical, crying and vomiting (apologies if it is too detailed ) she had to take some sort of sedative pills. I posted here (not in the clearest state of mind) and got accused my story is fake.

When you go back to your initial discovery in the parking lot, her immediate reaction (sheer panic, didn't come home, hysterical begging) and her subsequent failure to do ANYTHING to prove she didn't have sex with him, I don't see how you have any doubt on this point. If the physical part no longer matters then fine - it doesn't matter. But if it is still as vital to you as it has been then you need only to apply Occam's razor to this situation. Based on her d-day reactions the most simple, obvious conclusion is that they were physical. Everything since than has been her attempts to cover it up and your overwhelming desire that she didn't have sex with him.

[italianjob]

She just had an emotional meeting with the OM to say goodbye (which I tend to believe)

 

I find this extremely hard to believe. It's standard cheater script... They almost always get caught right on the day they are ending it, just sooo unlucky.

 

She sees you by her car and her life is now over.

 

And that's the point... Why?

 

Why would she think her life is over and panic and run away if all there was to it was some inappropriate emotional bonding and a "motherlike" affection?

 

People in the real world (outside forums like this) are unfamiliar with "Emotional Affairs". They know, of course it's inappropriate but they genuinely don't think they're really cheating (and that's often what in the end will allow them to go forward with it) if there's been nothing physical.

 

So, IMO, if nothing physical had happened the natural reaction would have been to try to explain herself (a classic "this is not what you think" moment), not run away.

 

If I thought I was a victim of a misunderstanding I would go out of my way to prove my "innocence". Instead she deleted all their message.

 

And then there's the OM. If I had a man always on my back because of my inappropriate relationship with his wife but I had nothing physical with the lady, maybe I could avoid him the first time around out of fear of a spur of the moment assault, but after I saw that he didn't give up, I wouldn't abandon my life and flee town, but I would try to explain that nothing happened with the mrs.

 

If I just disappear either something DID happen with his wife, or I'm really afraid of that man. And at that point, who would have described him to me as some kind of cross between Dracula and Jack the Ripper?

[Buckeye2]

I find this extremely hard to believe. It's standard cheater script... They almost always get caught right on the day they are ending it, just sooo unlucky.

 

 

 

And that's the point... Why?

 

Why would she think her life is over and panic and run away if all there was to it was some inappropriate emotional bonding and a "motherlike" affection?

 

People in the real world (outside forums like this) are unfamiliar with "Emotional Affairs". They know, of course it's inappropriate but they genuinely don't think they're really cheating (and that's often what in the end will allow them to go forward with it) if there's been nothing physical.

 

So, IMO, if nothing physical had happened the natural reaction would have been to try to explain herself (a classic "this is not what you think" moment), not run away.

 

If I thought I was a victim of a misunderstanding I would go out of my way to prove my "innocence". Instead she deleted all their message.

 

And then there's the OM. If I had a man always on my back because of my inappropriate relationship with his wife but I had nothing physical with the lady, maybe I could avoid him the first time around out of fear of a spur of the moment assault, but after I saw that he didn't give up, I wouldn't abandon my life and flee town, but I would try to explain that nothing happened with the mrs.

 

If I just disappear either something DID happen with his wife, or I'm really afraid of that man. And at that point, who would have described him to me as some kind of cross between Dracula and Jack the Ripper?

 

I believe that they had a PA. I’m just saying that I think she was ending it when she gave him the watch. I think it was a game for her that was getting too risky. I put the most innocent spin on everything (i.e. EA) to make the point that she was lying about contacting the OM even under the best of conditions.

[italianjob]

I believe that they had a PA. I’m just saying that I think she was ending it when she gave him the watch. I think it was a game for her that was getting too risky. I put the most innocent spin on everything (i.e. EA) to make the point that she was lying about contacting the OM even under the best of conditions.

 

The first quote was just to say that I have a hard time believing this because I must have read 100 stories where the cheaters say they were meeting the AP to end the affair right on the time they get caught

 

On the second quote, my intention was not to counter what you said, but just to use the way you put things because it was ideal for me to clarify why I think this was a PA.

 

All involved acted very guilty at every turn, and while sometimes someone may panic and act in a way that make them look even more guilty than they are, when everybody is panicking every time there's a high chance that something is going on.

[merrmeade]

Don't agree you can make conclusions based on behavior. In my H's and sister-in-law's case, the A had been physical but she'd screwed her head on so catterwonky about how those few oopsies had just been stupid accidents and they'd tried so hard to be "just friends," that she truly believed and acted as if they'd done nothing wrong and I was the villain for leaving them alone together. He came clean right away. Since I had relationships with both of them, I had more access.

 

I don't see how all this guessing and then making life decision based on the "must haves" helps. zinger anyway like SpokenFor said.

[italianjob]

Don't agree you can make conclusions based on behavior. In my H's and sister-in-law's case, the A had been physical but she'd screwed her head on so catterwonky about how those few oopsies had just been stupid accidents and they'd tried so hard to be "just friends," that she truly believed and acted as if they'd done nothing wrong and I was the villain for leaving them alone together. He came clean right away. Since I had relationships with both of them, I had more access.

 

I don't see how all this guessing and then making life decision based on the "must haves" helps. zinger anyway like SpokenFor said.

 

zinger obviously feels he doesn't have the full truth, or he wouldn't be divorcing. Without means of access to the truth (since all evidence seems to have been destroyed), the only tool he has is watching behaviors.

 

Your example is the exact opposite of what went on in zinger's case, it doesn't seem relevant to me, frankly.

[m.snow]

I don't think Mr.Zinger is going for R anymore

 

In a few more weeks or months Zinger will be leaving the country and taking a better job in America.

 

He I believe said no chance for R since the beginning. Evidence of PA was only for forgiveness something along those lines?

 

Divorce was full steam a few months ago?

 

And WW said she will wait for him forever for his return.

 

Mr.Zinger is not close to his family and is highly likely a One Way Trip.

 

I do wonder which country zinger is from.

 

I could be mistaken but that is the gist of what I know about this thread.

been following since the beginning.

[merrmeade]

Zinger, I am very glad you've gotten away and I really hope you don't come back to this site until Monday at the earliest!

 

To the other posters who are hammering away at the evidence and parsing the posts, and suggesting "it might be fun to..." question his wife in some way: can we please chill out a bit? This isn't a court case, isn't a crime drama where we learn all the details in the end. I am a former BS myself and I'm with you -- I'd like to know even more -- but parsing every second-hand posting about their conversations to try to find some evidence that she is lying seems pointless to me.

 

Zinger has done a lot of painful work and gotten a lot of answers, and is now feeling his way through an unfamiliar emotional process to understand what a new relationship with this woman would mean for him and his happiness in life. Zinger by now has a pretty good read on what kind of woman his wife is, what kind of wife she wants to be for him, and is trying to decide whether it makes sense to start a new relationship. I for one will wait to see if he has any observations or questions for us as a group.

 

I am confident we all are "on his side" and want to see him come through this to a happier life!

zinger obviously feels he doesn't have the full truth, or he wouldn't be divorcing. Without means of access to the truth (since all evidence seems to have been destroyed), the only tool he has is watching behaviors.

 

Your example is the exact opposite of what went on in zinger's case, it doesn't seem relevant to me, frankly.

My example was in support of SpokenFor's contention that z. knows his wife better than we do and has a better feel for her veracity at this point.

 

Generally, I think he's progressed a lot from that initial lack of objectivity and is able to weigh a lot more information and apply it appropriately. From a global view of the situation, I also agree with SF's view that z. has moved beyond picking apart evidence and what it means. But also, because I'm convinced z. is in a better, clearer place, I'm not worried about how he takes my advice or anyone else's. He's getting things figured out step by step according to what he can live with. So that's why SF's tactful comment was interesting and I agree with it but don't feel that strongly any more about general tone and direction of individual posts. In other words, I think z's getting his head on straight and knows what HE needs. He'll can handle the perspectives and make his own decisions about what's important.

[66Charger]

It doesnt appear to me that things are getting figured out. It seems he is no further along than a week after DDay. Unless I missed something, there has been no change other than a failed polygraph. 2 months later, what is the answer to his question? EA or PA?

 

This is a textbook example of what a WS should NOT do.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

I don't find this analysis particularly meaningful. When zinger's wife decided to explore a private personal relationship with this guy, she kept it a secret from her husband and there was really nothing he could have done about it.

 

As to what her motivations were at the start, at at various points of the relationship, is immaterial. You dedicate your whole third paragraph to pure speculation. I don't think it's probative or very meaningful.

 

The important thing is that she followed through and cultivated this relationship. We can't read her mind. We can't rightly speculate on her motivations throughout this episode, and then base a course of action of these imagined motivations.

 

Further, exploration speculating about her feelings aren't very compelling. Feelings change. I feel different now than when I woke up this morning. A woman might feel one thing with a chat with a friend over a cup of coffee, and then feel something else during a sex session with that same friend thirty minutes later. All the feelings were valid, but not very meaningful when it comes to deciding what to do in Zinger's case.

 

Like I said, when she started on the course of action, we have no idea what she was feeling or what her motivations were. Imagining these things often becomes a self serving exercise, but ultimately doesn't really help. There was nothing Zinger could have done to stop this private relationship from developing.

 

Now, it's up to Zinger to decide what he wants to do. Divining her feelings and motivations at any given time during this episode doesn't really help him. It comes down to what she did and what Zinger wants to do. Now there's nothing that his wife can do to stop him. It's perfectly fair - she was in the driver's seat before, now he is in the driver's seat. She had the decision making power before, and now he has the decision making power.

 

What she wants or what anyone imagines she wants is immaterial (and at the very least, speculative). It's what he wants to do. Her feelings may change at any point during a conversation with Zinger. Who cares? Plotting any of those feelings has nothing to do with the life Zinger wants to lead with a companion.

 

Talk of things not being black and white is fine, but misplaced. What's material is what she has done, and what Zinger decides to do. And that's that.

 

Hi Merrmeade, Thank you for your response to my post. I appreciate your point of view and I have to say that since I have never been a BS or a WS my perspective of infidelity does not dovetail with that of those who have had a bitter experience of this devastating human condition. I guess the views of most people here is subjective where as I am like an observer, on the outside looking in. Also as I have mentioned in another thread, I am an old man and my perspective is not as sharp and well defined as it was when I was younger. It is much more diffuse and the contours of things observed are more rounded and soft.

 

From my position things like infidelity do not stand out as black and white. It is the same with human beings. They come in many hues and shades and no two human beings are exactly alike. Also, no human being deserves to be labelled a complete blackguard or a complete saint. All of us have our good points and bad points. What I am trying to say here is that if person A is caught cheating and is known to be a serial cheater then his or her case would be very different from person B who has never cheated before but unfortunately gets caught up in a situation where he or she falls prey to the machinations of a player. I have found that on this forum people have a rigid template like the so called Cheater's Handbook and they fit all cases of people caught cheating within the frame work of this template. No matter the person does not fit in neatly. He or she is simply stuffed into the suitcase which is then locked somehow. My own thinking is that people who cheat have characteristics which match that of others to the extent of ninety per cent, but there is a ten percent difference. This is due to the uniqueness of the individual. We must allow for this ten per cent and treat each case of infidelity as a stand alone case.

 

In the case of Zinger's wife( and I may may be completely off course here) i think she did not start out with the specific intention of cheating. She got caught up in a situation where she probably genuinely wanted to help a young man struggling to be recognized and because of her love of art, thought she could really make a material difference in his fledgling career. That this endeavour on her part turned into an EA/PA(?) was a result she had probably never intended or expected. On the other hand the artist guy seemed to be a player and he exploited a situation which was slanted in his favour to the hilt. He probably played on her motherly instincts to get close to her emotionally and then turned on the charm. He may have done this before with other hapless ladies. I am not trying to minimize the huge betrayal that Zinger's wife perpetrated on him. As an adult who had been in a stable marriage for 14 or 15 years she should have been more savvy and nipped any romantic efforts by the artist in the bud. She failed to do so and the emotional high that she got from the romantic attention completely overshadowed her sensibilities. That led to the present situation where she is now on the verge of divorce and her whole world as she knew it is collapsing around her feet.

 

The question that now arises is whether she should be given a second chance. This is something between Zinger and his wife as it is a very personal and intimate decision. Only Zinger truly knows his wife thoroughly enough to know whether she is being sincere and genuine in her efforts to repair the damage to the relationship or not. He will have to dig deep into his subconscious mind to come up with an answer to this question. The true polygraph is his own subconscious mind. I hope that gives some background to where I am coming from. Warm Wishes to all and sorry for the thread jack Zinger. My apologies!

[merrmeade]

Yeah, I think what's bothered me from the beginning but has been hard to put in words that don't sound totally lame is that - what zinger's wife did was SO much less than, say, what my H did although what he did is also less than what some other WS did (and so on). But still, it seems it was her first time (no matter what all the crazy hyperbole projects) and, well, she wasn't very good at it ...

 

Like I said, no way to say it that doesn't come out lame, and of course every BS has a different threshold.

 

But for me personally, she just wasn't a died-in-the-wool accomplished cheater and liar. Just think maybe she could be turned back and re-educated and all the things that should happen in R, MC, IC. She could maybe become the person she probably, maybe wants to be. I just see so much more potential than some. Hard for me to see a half-empty glass here ...

[italianjob]

Yeah, I think what's bothered me from the beginning but has been hard to put in words that don't sound totally lame is that - what zinger's wife did was SO much less than, say, what my H did although what he did is also less than what some other WS did (and so on). But still, it seems it was her first time (no matter what all the crazy hyperbole projects) and, well, she wasn't very good at it ...

 

Like I said, no way to say it that doesn't come out lame, and of course every BS has a different threshold.

 

But for me personally, she just wasn't a died-in-the-wool accomplished cheater and liar. Just think maybe she could be turned back and re-educated and all the things that should happen in R, MC, IC. She could maybe become the person she probably, maybe wants to be. I just see so much more potential than some. Hard for me to see a half-empty glass here ...

 

How can you say this? We don't really know what she ACTUALLY did. Zinger is far from convinced he has all the true facts. It's been the point of his quest for the last two months. Do you know something nobody else knows (even zinger)?

[66Charger]

Yeah, I think what's bothered me from the beginning but has been hard to put in words that don't sound totally lame is that - what zinger's wife did was SO much less than, say, what my H did although what he did is also less than what some other WS did (and so on). But still, it seems it was her first time (no matter what all the crazy hyperbole projects) and, well, she wasn't very good at it ...

 

Like I said, no way to say it that doesn't come out lame, and of course every BS has a different threshold.

 

But for me personally, she just wasn't a died-in-the-wool accomplished cheater and liar. Just think maybe she could be turned back and re-educated and all the things that should happen in R, MC, IC. She could maybe become the person she probably, maybe wants to be. I just see so much more potential than some. Hard for me to see a half-empty glass here ...

 

 

 

Thats a lot of speculation. how do you know she hasnt cheated before? Did she pass a polygraph that stated that as truth?

 

He certainly thinks she is a accomplished liar, thats why he had to give a POLYGRAPH.

 

A good start to "becoming the person she wants to be" would be to look the man in the eye and be straight. Do you honestly feel she has done that?

 

You feel she has potential? Why? Her tears? Her gender? Or your speculation that this was her first and only time?

 

She had the chance to tell the truth, with backup, and she threw the test. On purpose. And yes I did "speculate" this as fact.

 

So what is the answer?

 

EA or PA? First time or 3rd? Do you know? Does Zinger? Does anyone?

 

The man wants to know BEFORE anyone speculates wether she is worthy of reconcilliation, IC, or MC. Is that too much to ask?

Edited August 1, 2015 by 66Charger

[zinger]

Thanks a lot for so many posts. I'd like to be able to respond to all of them, however due to limited time (I'm still travelling), let me part attempt to provide some clarity on the following:

 

1) No, the surveillance guy was not able to witness them when I called. My intent was to catch them in flagranti, so I called him, but my - in the heat of the moment- my directions were but clear and we both missed them, hence I met only her and only at the car park

 

2) What I know and what I before is two different things. Knowing the facts and also my FWW (to a certain degree of course) I do believe that on the day after being busted and before getting home she messaged him something like "it's over don't contact me again" and wiped all history. So technically is child be the truth she hasn't contacted him since that day.

 

3) I'm certain I have posted this, but she told me since, she was disgusted she hasn't attempted to contact her at all (even to find out is she ok). She said something along the lines of both missing him but coming to understand that she threw her marriage away for a live of garbage.

 

4) Poly answers to questions like she's she miss him and wants to hear from him (all "no") can't as truthful.

 

So yeah, I believe he "dumped" her. Not sure if I'm supposed to be thrilled or humiliated.

[singer23]

I think how she dealt the whole thing after she got caught is much worse than any affair she might have had..It is much more insulting and humiliating that she stuck to the lies, hid her affair partner rather than risk losing her face among her family and friends by telling zinger the truth..

 

Now, only zinger knows she is lying. She can keep playing the victim with the family and friends if she keeps denying it. She even sabotaged the poly...

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger,

 

If you thnk she messaged him and told him not to contact her anymore how did he "dump" her.???? Then she deletes all the files and plays dumb throughout this whole 1200 posts??

 

No, we all can speculate on the specifics, and all can differ on the specific course of action we would recommend, but I just cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can still believe that this was just a motherly little episode that your wife has let her marriage dissolve over rather than come clean. If she has been willing to do that then she does not love you at all or she is a true "nut case".

 

When you first posted, you got a bunch or responses telling you that you were "overreacting", and that it might be all innocent. That did not turn out to be too accurate.

 

You have no recourse but to assume that she did the worst of the worst and knows that silence was her only option. She gave you no options so at this point it is over and you need to just move on with your life in whatever direction you see fit. How you could ever trust anything she said again would be beyond me but that is your call.

 

If this was just a little 'huggy huggy" EA, it has to go down as one of the stupidest decisions a WW has ever made.

[hl1962]

Don't get why she dropped him like a hot potato. Thought she was really interested in helping a starving, undiscovered super star artist, then just got a little carried away. Now she can support him without being sneaky if he's that good an artist and nothing that deep emotional/physical between them?

[eric1]

Here it is simple:

 

Former Mrs. Zinger perhaps never went further than holding hands in a ****ty mall food court, but she was carrying on an emotional affair. When she did that, she lost the trust of her husband and as a result the burden of proof now fell to her. She could have still gotten out of this, but instead chose to destroy all evidence, Zinger had to collect most of the evidence himself and she *still* doesn't have a clear timeline (as evidenced by the questions post-discovery). She did not adequately give Zinger the facts to re-establish the path the a trust rebuild and him divorcing her is a sad consequence, but a consequence that her actions drove.

 

This thread for the past 50 pages is basically what happens to a BS when he/she doesn't know the truth. The mind games. Rationalizations. Unnecessary demonizations. Focusing on minute issues. Questioning your actions.

 

It's horrible. These games will not stop here or in his head until firm No Contact has been put in place (or she miraculously find a motherload of evidence)

 

--------

 

FWIW I think that she had the exact mentor relationship turned emotional affair like she described but it had gone physical on an infrequent schedule, and she was able to compartmentalize and lock away those instances. She'll never admit it to Zinger because she'll never admit it to herself.

[road]

Don't get why she dropped him like a hot potato. Thought she was really interested in helping a starving, undiscovered super star artist, then just got a little carried away. Now she can support him without being sneaky if he's that good an artist and nothing that deep emotional/physical between them?

 

Because many WS drop the AP like a hot potato because they AP was fun though not worth giving up everything for.

[hl1962]

But other than a little fun, this AP was a hidden treasure in her artistry eyes. She should have some backbone to come clean (a little EA, white lies according to her) and unearth the huge talent per her original generous intent. Don't get the panic.

[drifter777]

I don't know if "dumped her" really applies here. There was no relationship from his side - your wife was just an easy, no-strings attached piece of ass. A series of one-night-stands. He got what he wanted and moved on as soon as she wasn't easy sex. Does she get that he used her like a piece of kleenex?

[eric1]

Zing, how is everything post/trip. Are you feeling (relatively) OK?

[Just a Guy]

Hi Zinger, How are things going with you? Have you been able to introspect and come up with answers that may have been lurking in the back of your mind? Like I said in a previous post, your subconscious mind is your best Polygraph machine. It will give you the correct answers based on all that you have observed, and what information you have gathered from various sources.

[zinger]

Just a quick update - mostly to thank people here who supported me since May (as I'm not in a mood for writing). Couple of days ago I have learned and got proof there was a what you call PA. That's it really.