To bust or not to bust

[Binster]

Just wondered if there has been any change in her habits actions or attitude that you've picked up on since your return (phone and computer use etc).

[merrmeade]

Okay, as a victim of infidelity I feel solidarity with other betrayed spouses who have been lied to and cheated on. I do NOT, however, agree with this creepy, creeping tendency in some BH posts to pigeon-hole WWs based on gender and class stereotype. This "profile" business is irrelevant and unhelpful to zinger's situation and betrayed women coming here looking for sensible advice and understanding from shared experience.

 

I think it's important because zinger and other BSs are vulnerable at this stage of posting and need to know what's solid and what's bias. For example, zinger may not identify his wife with yours. And the pseudo-psychology about how women think and behave "as a group" really did not work for me as a member of that group. It's better debate to identify where ideas came from, i.e., what you've read, what your therapist has told you, or even what you surmise. But, please, don't try to assert truisms based only on personal experience or informal LS surveys.

 

From the get-go, we were thrust into a sexist mindset — "I’ve read about multiple cases where a happily married woman cheats and came up with a profile." — followed by some seriously flawed logic and subjectively interpreted, random anecdotal 'evidence':

 

Problems in bold:

Triggers: Age (around 40 is most common) and an “empty nest” (time on her hands) are factors. Also few sexual partners before marriage plays a role. Reconnecting with a high school acquaintance (not necessarily an old girlfriend) also is common.

At least three stereotypes here that don't describe even the majority of women over 40. All WWs are not necessarily married to rich white men nor are they all over-40 SAHMs with empty-nest syndrome. And they're certainly not any worse than a cheating, lying WH.

 

And this is equally true of WHs:

They think that they will never to be caught because they're careful and their [spouse] is so trusting. They also expect to be ultimately forgiven (after some fireworks) if they are caught because their relationship and family life are so good. They freak out when they realize that their husband might actually divorce them. They panic because their life plan was “till death do us part.”

Edited May 27, 2015 by merrmeade
Made it nicer :)

[Buckeye2]

Please, just qualify any assertions based on personal experience or informal LS surveys.

 

This is a sexist premise: "I’ve read about multiple cases where a happily married woman cheats and came up with a profile." This is followed by some seriously flawed logic and subjectively interpreted, random anecdotal 'evidence'

 

I gave the source of my opinion. "I’ve read about multiple cases” is a qualification.

[merrmeade]

I gave the source of my opinion. "I’ve read about multiple cases” is a qualification.

Okay, true - you did say that - and now let's get back to zinger's dilemma.

 

How's it going today? Think you need to wait a few more days?

 

It sounded like there's still a huge cache of digital information unmined on her phone and computer. Did you say whether there's a 'spynet' around those sources??

[Buckeye2]

Okay, true - you did say that - and now let's get back to zinger's dilemma.

 

I never left it. I was merely trying to answer zinger's question. By the way, zinger's question is sexist. He didn't ask about husbands.

 

I'd really like to know the root cause. I assume (for now) that a good wife of all these years, who is mentally stable and according to her own words was and is happy in her marriage doesn't wake up one morning with "I'm going to cheat today" plan. Logically there should be a trigger somewhere?

 

And I didn't bring race into it:

 

All WWs are not necessarily married to rich white men nor are they all over-40 SAHMs with empty-nest syndrome.

 

I’m a physician and so is my wife. Having an empty nest was a big change for both of us. It’s a stereotype that only stay at home moms have problems with an empty nest.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Buckeye2

[merrmeade]

Hey, I just read another thread where the OP humbly addressed posters, "Hey, I don't mean to be rude," and politely asked, "... can we keep on topic with my situation and not bicker about mistruths about the semantics ... Unless you have been there, and done that, please do not comment. Thank you."

 

I'm sorry, zinger. Buckeye has helped me a lot in the past. He's a great poster. Besides, he wasn't the only one. It was slowly creeping into other posts as well. I do see the benefit of having the BH experience validated by other BHs. But I hope you don't vilify and marginalize all women as a result of your wife's actions. I identify with you as a betrayed spouse and we all have a lot more in common with that.

 

Peace.

[eric1]

I am so sorry for what you are going through Zinger, I have been in your shoes and it is not a fun place to be. I did my own investigating and got the proof a couple of weeks later. The best advice I can give you is get a hold of that cell phone, or if you suspect that she has another cell then you can download an app that will tell you if there are any other devices connected to your wifi. I'm sure your investigator will know about this. If I had to do it over again I would have just put the voice activated recorder in his car, it would have only taken 1 day instead of weeks.

There are many sites that will give you advice on how to deal with things once the truth is out, I never thought that far ahead had tunnel vision and was only concerned with finding out the truth that I never considered how it would affect me when I did.

 

Good Luck to you.

 

If Zing wants to try this and has an Android phone as well then Fing is the one to use. Good call on this, it's something that would be difficult for the PI to do remotely.

[Poutrew]

Zinger, from your previous post I'm getting the impression that you are going to confront your wife sooner rather than later, even if you don't get the 'smoking gun' type evidence she can't deny, obfuscate, or turn into harmless circumstantial events. I'd counsel to hold off and let the PI do what you are paying him to do. One thing, if you are going to confront her, put a DVR in you pocket to record the entire conversation. She might become nasty, saying you have no real evidence against her, and she can make you hurt in a divorce. She may even admit to having the affair and go into details she knows you will not be able to prove in court, in order to hurt you. My buddy did this and got a very juicy confession from his wife, which, when she and her attorney heard it, made the divorce a lot easier and cheaper...

[fellini]

When we council people who suspect their significant others of committing a moral wrong for personal pleasure to consider themselves committing a potentially criminal act to blackmail them in some unknown future, I wonder when the line has crossed in helping others solve their immediate issues.

 

Currently we have a suspected WS maintaining secrets to prevent gettling caught.

but it's also true we have a potential BS maintaining secrets to prevent getting caught.

 

Betrayal takes many forms in a marriage. The OP has to at some point ask himself if it has come to this, perhaps the marriage is already over. When did the thrill of the chase become the focus and not maintaining the moral high ground and not stoop to guarding a great secret in order to entrap? I can't speculate. I asked my WW about the same Internet page he saw, got the same reaction, but then she quickly changed her approach of denial and admitted.

Edited May 28, 2015 by fellini

[BetrayedH]

When we council people who suspect their significant others of committing a moral wrong for personal pleasure to consider themselves committing a potentially criminal act to blackmail them in some unknown future, I wonder when the line has crossed in helping others solve their immediate issues.

 

Currently we have a suspected WS maintaining secrets to prevent gettling caught.

but it's also true we have a potential BS maintaining secrets to prevent getting caught.

 

Betrayal takes many forms in a marriage. The OP has to at some point ask himself if it has come to this, perhaps the marriage is already over. When did the thrill of the chase become the focus and not maintaining the moral high ground and not stoop to guarding a great secret in order to entrap? I can't speculate. I asked my WW about the same Internet page he saw, got the same reaction, but then she quickly changed her approach of denial and admitted.

 

My gut says you got tremendously lucky that your wife chose to make a confession. That really doesn't fit the pattern. Hadn't even your wife's best friend as well as her counselor tried to stop her in advance? You speak eloquently about what a high waywards are on. Do you think you could have stopped her in advance? It seems to me that the OP has tried twice to interject himself and has failed on both occasions. Do you really think it best for him to lay all of his cards on the table? Reveal that he's engaged a PI? When he's got such a weak hand?

 

I really am not asking to be argumentative. Much like you, I find the dishonesty to be distasteful. Lying rarely sits well with me. But in this case, I have to defer to the practical side of things. I felt NO guilt for my snooping after I discovered that my wife hadn't been playing by the rules for quite some time. And if I'd kept my moral high ground, I'd have been further taken advantage of.

[fellini]

My gut says you got tremendously lucky that your wife chose to make a confession. That really doesn't fit the pattern. Hadn't even your wife's best friend as well as her counselor tried to stop her in advance? You speak eloquently about what a high waywards are on. Do you think you could have stopped her in advance? It seems to me that the OP has tried twice to interject himself and has failed on both occasions. Do you really think it best for him to lay all of his cards on the table? Reveal that he's engaged a PI? When he's got such a weak hand?

 

I really am not asking to be argumentative. Much like you, I find the dishonesty to be distasteful. Lying rarely sits well with me. But in this case, I have to defer to the practical side of things. I felt NO guilt for my snooping after I discovered that my wife hadn't been playing by the rules for quite some time. And if I'd kept my moral high ground, I'd have been further taken advantage of.

 

I think luck entered into finding infidelity search on her ipad. My gut tells me I asked, two weeks later, out of interest, and that her "confession" came after she had already entered into more than a month of PA. Would she have confessed prior to getting in that 6 weeks of PA? Impossible to say.

 

Her friend and IC were consulted much prior, in one case more than two months before it went PA. In the end what my WW was trying to do was either end her A or the deception, by forcing me to react. So no I don't think the case is the same, and hence my point "I cannot speculate".

 

But I did NOT say that I thought he should lay all his cards on the table. My point is he shouldn't continue to stack the deck. I think as an adult, I would want to say, "hey, how far am I willing to take myself into this? At what point am I no better than her (IN THAT I AM DECEIVING, LYING, AND GASLIGHTING MY SPOUSE)"

 

I am not comparing the "wrongness" of either of them. But "pretending", as is the normal recommendation here that everything is "normal" when it clearly isn't, just to "fool" the WW into thinking nothing is amiss, is in fact a form of gaslighting. So where does it stop? Im not saying it's easy either.

 

Saying that one lies for practical purposes is pretty much what WS's would be doing isn't it? I mean, they lie in order not to get caught. Otherwise the A is over. Each person needs to set their own limits to how far they will go.

 

I was reflecting, not advising, I think.

[eric1]

In the same spirit of offering a perspective towards Zinger I would advise against setting a deadline of confronting her. Just like he started to pick up her behavioral queues and slight changes, she (if doing something wrong) has almost certainly had her spidey senses tingle as well.

 

Much like he is playing it smart now, she's likely "playing it safe" for the moment. But also, like Zinger, every day that passes he feels the need for resolution, the converse action on her side is she's becoming more comfortable that nothing has happened and will become more comfortable with taking the similar risks again.

 

My only point is that patience can be a strategic advantage. I believe Zinger likely has more solid info than she does at this point, so his patience can be predicated upon a solid game plan. She doesn't have similar information, and this advantage on the battlefield should be taken advantage of.

[BetrayedH]

I think luck entered into finding infidelity search on her ipad. My gut tells me I asked, two weeks later, out of interest, and that her "confession" came after she had already entered into more than a month of PA. Would she have confessed prior to getting in that 6 weeks of PA? Impossible to say.

 

Her friend and IC were consulted much prior, in one case more than two months before it went PA. In the end what my WW was trying to do was either end her A or the deception, by forcing me to react. So no I don't think the case is the same, and hence my point "I cannot speculate".

 

But I did NOT say that I thought he should lay all his cards on the table. My point is he shouldn't continue to stack the deck. I think as an adult, I would want to say, "hey, how far am I willing to take myself into this? At what point am I no better than her (IN THAT I AM DECEIVING, LYING, AND GASLIGHTING MY SPOUSE)"

 

I am not comparing the "wrongness" of either of them. But "pretending", as is the normal recommendation here that everything is "normal" when it clearly isn't, just to "fool" the WW into thinking nothing is amiss, is in fact a form of gaslighting. So where does it stop? Im not saying it's easy either.

 

Saying that one lies for practical purposes is pretty much what WS's would be doing isn't it? I mean, they lie in order not to get caught. Otherwise the A is over. Each person needs to set their own limits to how far they will go.

 

I was reflecting, not advising, I think.

 

I hear you. And to a large extent, I agree that it's a wise question to ask oneself when in a situation like this. I really am not a fan of lying, and I make very few exceptions for myself. Sometimes it's a real inconvenience and annoyance to those around me that would prefer the occassional "white" lie for one reason or another.

 

My choice to snoop on my spouse was an agonizing one. She had told me out of the blue that she felt we might need to separate, needed time to think on it, but that it was probably too late for us. I came to LS trying to figure out how to repair my marriage. My first thread was actually on the "Second Chances" forum in hope that I could find a way to get my own second chance. But as I read and researched, all signs pointed to infidelity. It took about 3 weeks but I finally broke down and bought a GPS for my wife's car. I was literally shaking during the purchase. I knew that if it was discovered during such a tenuous time in my marriage, then the marriage was over. But our lack of marital problems kept pointing to the fact that there must be something else going on. Putting the GPS in the car like a sneaky little rat in the middle of the night was torture. So was the retrieval.

 

What I do know is that getting the results was actually a relief. I finally had answers to WTF was going on. I also knew that the piddly nonsense 'reasons' for her proposed separation that all blamed me for everything were mularky. My failure to keep up with the dishes hadn't ruined my marriage; the woman was just saying anything to justify her affair. I now have no regrets about the deception I employed to get to the truth.

 

When confronted, my wife tried to lie. Lol. Nice try. By that time I had found a dozen other hotel reservations. I was no longer being played for a fool. Then she blubbered and bawled and made all of the commitments I required to avoid an immediate divorce. It took another 8 months of hypervigilance to confirm that yep, she was still lying. Second chance over. So, no regrets for that hypervigilance either.

 

But I do recognize that my story is anecdotal. And there would be a different moral to my story had I been wrong. But I've seen it play out here and other forums time after time after time, the same way. It's a sad reality.

 

I do agree with you that there are limits. I've seen people proactively send messages to a spouse, entrapping them. And I've seen people with plenty of evidence continue to amass more as they remain stuck in analysis paralysis. And I do wonder how much deception is justified to flush out deception. With the rest of my life hanging in the balance, I don't regret getting to the truth.

 

But yeah, there's a line. And in other ways, I did lose myself and cross lines that I shouldn't've. There's only so far we should follow them into the rabbit hole.

[velvette]

 

I really am not asking to be argumentative. Much like you, I find the dishonesty to be distasteful. Lying rarely sits well with me. But in this case, I have to defer to the practical side of things. I felt NO guilt for my snooping after I discovered that my wife hadn't been playing by the rules for quite some time. And if I'd kept my moral high ground, I'd have been further taken advantage of.

 

 

Ditto. I think it is pretty hard to lose the moral high ground to someone who is actively cheating.

 

 

OP has a PI who presumably can advise him regarding the legality of things being recommended here. A lot of this stuff varies by state if he's in the US.

[merrmeade]

I hear you. And to a large extent, I agree that it's a wise question to ask oneself when in a situation like this. I really am not a fan of lying, and I make very few exceptions for myself. Sometimes it's a real inconvenience and annoyance to those around me that would prefer the occasional "white" lie for one reason or another.

zinger: THIS is the guy to listen to. He helped me more than anyone in my first months on LS following Dday. You get that he understands because he's been there, and he tries to persuade when he's sure but tactfully. Did I do what he advised? Nope. Do I wish like hell I had? Yep.

[BetrayedH]

zinger: THIS is the guy to listen to. He helped me more than anyone in my first months on LS following Dday. You get that he understands because he's been there, and he tries to persuade when he's sure but tactfully. Did I do what he advised? Nope. Do I wish like hell I had? Yep.

 

Lol. Nobody could get me to do what they wisely advised to me to do either, Merrmeade. Hell, I made every mistake in the damn book. In the end, most of us seem to end up doing ok, including you.

[VeryBrokenMan]

You have to walk a fine line regarding snooping before you have any proof but once there is a smoking gun (in my case inappropriate text messages) then I feel the offending spouse loses all rights to privacy and really standing in the marriage. The gloves have to come off when a spouse is found to be cheating and at that point everything is fair game including VAR's GPS, PI, and any other tools you need. I don't feel at all badly about myself for spying on her, she had already given up those rights in my opinion.

 

Every situation of cheating is different but I feel sure my wife would have denied, denied and denied unless I had proof. She had done just that about a month before DDAy when I asked her without proof. She told me "I don't cheat because of who I am and what I believe". It was not only a lie but a spectacular one. The day I gave her the ultimatum I asked one more time if she was cheating and she denied it again and said I had nothing to worry about. The morning of the ultimatum I handed her a report of 3 months worth of text messages between them, detailed logs from the PI, etc and told her she could confess everything that morning and break it off for good or I was filing for divorce. She told me 98% of everything that morning. I'm certain had I not had the proof she never would have admitted to the affair and all the details. That is what cheaters do, they deny and I think they may even believe they are not cheating since their reality is so screwed up.

 

So in summary I think everything is fair game once you have some type of indication on an affair. You don't want to accuse an innocent spouse so a little leeway and patience is needed. But if they are cheating and you are listening they will trip up and get caught.

[drifter777]

When you have a reasonable suspicion that your partner is cheating you should do whatever you have to do in order to find the truth - short of torture.

 

You need your spouse believing everything is normal in order to find out if everything is normal. In the case of suspected infidelity, the ends justify the means.

[zinger]

Thank you all,

 

I'd like to let you know that everyone's opinion and all viewpoints are important to me and help me to complete the puzzle. The lady who was what you called WS and posted here and the gentleman who suggested I'm a sexist (I probably am in the given context) - you are all welcome. I do consider moral aspects of snooping, though we always had total transparency by default (including all passwords, pin's and secret questions).

 

At the moment it feels somewhat academic to me. I have evidence that she was not truthful again and the only logical conclusion is that she's going to meet him.

It is remarkably simple: her work email notification on her phone from her boss ("hi Name, It is ok for you to leave earlier, before you go please ensure that.... ") for the same day she told me she's going to be late due to important meeting at work. Go figure.

 

Of course I'm not going to allow anything physical to happen this night, but unless it's a massive coincidence, this will be the end.

 

Thanks for staying with me here.

[merrmeade]

You have to walk a fine line regarding snooping before you have any proof but once there is a smoking gun (in my case inappropriate text messages) then I feel the offending spouse loses all rights to privacy and really standing in the marriage. The gloves have to come off when a spouse is found to be cheating and at that point everything is fair game including VAR's GPS, PI, and any other tools you need. I don't feel at all badly about myself for spying on her, she had already given up those rights in my opinion.

 

Every situation of cheating is different but I feel sure my wife would have denied, denied and denied unless I had proof. She had done just that about a month before DDAy when I asked her without proof. She told me "I don't cheat because of who I am and what I believe". It was not only a lie but a spectacular one. The day I gave her the ultimatum I asked one more time if she was cheating and she denied it again and said I had nothing to worry about. The morning of the ultimatum I handed her a report of 3 months worth of text messages between them, detailed logs from the PI, etc and told her she could confess everything that morning and break it off for good or I was filing for divorce. She told me 98% of everything that morning. I'm certain had I not had the proof she never would have admitted to the affair and all the details. That is what cheaters do, they deny and I think they may even believe they are not cheating since their reality is so screwed up.

 

So in summary I think everything is fair game once you have some type of indication on an affair. You don't want to accuse an innocent spouse so a little leeway and patience is needed. But if they are cheating and you are listening they will trip up and get caught.

Perfect explanation.

 

Note that they trip up because their cover-up is mainly intended to avert suspicion. They don't usually spend time thinking about all the trails they're leaving.

[gettingstronger]

Truth be told- we are all a little sexist

 

Again, I am sorry about what you are going through. I found out all in one shot and it was painful- I held it in for maybe 15 minutes before I confronted him and those were the longest 15 minutes of my life- I can not imagine what this is doing to you mentally- all of the cliches apply which is take care of yourself- once this hits you will need all of your strength and wits to get through it- good luck-

[RightThere]

I hear you. And to a large extent, I agree that it's a wise question to ask oneself when in a situation like this. I really am not a fan of lying, and I make very few exceptions for myself. Sometimes it's a real inconvenience and annoyance to those around me that would prefer the occassional "white" lie for one reason or another.

 

My choice to snoop on my spouse was an agonizing one. She had told me out of the blue that she felt we might need to separate, needed time to think on it, but that it was probably too late for us. I came to LS trying to figure out how to repair my marriage. My first thread was actually on the "Second Chances" forum in hope that I could find a way to get my own second chance. But as I read and researched, all signs pointed to infidelity. It took about 3 weeks but I finally broke down and bought a GPS for my wife's car. I was literally shaking during the purchase. I knew that if it was discovered during such a tenuous time in my marriage, then the marriage was over. But our lack of marital problems kept pointing to the fact that there must be something else going on. Putting the GPS in the car like a sneaky little rat in the middle of the night was torture. So was the retrieval.

 

What I do know is that getting the results was actually a relief. I finally had answers to WTF was going on. I also knew that the piddly nonsense 'reasons' for her proposed separation that all blamed me for everything were mularky. My failure to keep up with the dishes hadn't ruined my marriage; the woman was just saying anything to justify her affair. I now have no regrets about the deception I employed to get to the truth.

 

When confronted, my wife tried to lie. Lol. Nice try. By that time I had found a dozen other hotel reservations. I was no longer being played for a fool. Then she blubbered and bawled and made all of the commitments I required to avoid an immediate divorce. It took another 8 months of hypervigilance to confirm that yep, she was still lying. Second chance over. So, no regrets for that hypervigilance either.

 

But I do recognize that my story is anecdotal. And there would be a different moral to my story had I been wrong. But I've seen it play out here and other forums time after time after time, the same way. It's a sad reality.

 

I do agree with you that there are limits. I've seen people proactively send messages to a spouse, entrapping them. And I've seen people with plenty of evidence continue to amass more as they remain stuck in analysis paralysis. And I do wonder how much deception is justified to flush out deception. With the rest of my life hanging in the balance, I don't regret getting to the truth.

 

But yeah, there's a line. And in other ways, I did lose myself and cross lines that I shouldn't've. There's only so far we should follow them into the rabbit hole.

 

Well said. My situation is almost identical, except for the fact that my STBXW had no real remourse for her action. I was still the bad guy for snooping and I actually do still feel guilty for stooping to that level and continuing to monitor her behind her back during "fake" reconciliation.

 

But the fact of the matter is that I don't like it, but the ends justified the means. I hate to admit that but I too would have been taken much fuller advantage of. Terrible cliché, but the truth shall set you free. And finally getting the real truth made me understand how badly I was being gas-lighted and that I wasn't getting divorced because I forgot to pick up milk on the way home from work.

[oldshirt]

Thank you all,

 

I'd like to let you know that everyone's opinion and all viewpoints are important to me and help me to complete the puzzle. The lady who was what you called WS and posted here and the gentleman who suggested I'm a sexist (I probably am in the given context) - you are all welcome. I do consider moral aspects of snooping, though we always had total transparency by default (including all passwords, pin's and secret questions).

 

At the moment it feels somewhat academic to me. I have evidence that she was not truthful again and the only logical conclusion is that she's going to meet him.

It is remarkably simple: her work email notification on her phone from her boss ("hi Name, It is ok for you to leave earlier, before you go please ensure that.... ") for the same day she told me she's going to be late due to important meeting at work. Go figure.

 

Of course I'm not going to allow anything physical to happen this night, but unless it's a massive coincidence, this will be the end.

 

Thanks for staying with me here.

 

Ouch!

 

It's game day.

 

Did you get your PI on this to follow her?

[TobyBoy]

Thank you all,

 

I'd like to let you know that everyone's opinion and all viewpoints are important to me and help me to complete the puzzle. The lady who was what you called WS and posted here and the gentleman who suggested I'm a sexist (I probably am in the given context) - you are all welcome. I do consider moral aspects of snooping, though we always had total transparency by default (including all passwords, pin's and secret questions).

 

At the moment it feels somewhat academic to me. I have evidence that she was not truthful again and the only logical conclusion is that she's going to meet him.

It is remarkably simple: her work email notification on her phone from her boss ("hi Name, It is ok for you to leave earlier, before you go please ensure that.... ") for the same day she told me she's going to be late due to important meeting at work. Go figure.

 

Of course I'm not going to allow anything physical to happen this night, but unless it's a massive coincidence, this will be the end.

 

Thanks for staying with me here.

 

Makes one wonder how many times she's used that line about "staying late for work" in the past!!!

Has there been contact between your W and the "painter" recently?

[RightThere]

Thanks drifter,

 

 

Not that I'm blaming myself but I'd really like to know the root cause. I assume (for now) that a good wife of all these years, who is mentally stable and according to her own words was and is happy in her marriage doesn't wake up one morning with "I'm going to cheat today" plan. Logically there should be a trigger somewhere?

 

To be totally fair, you must look at yourself and understand some of the things that you did to cause you marriage to fall apart. It's never one sided.

 

However the decision to cheat is all her. There are plenty of people involved in bad relationship and they decide to be adults and talk about it, or break it off. They don't have an affair, lie constantly about it, and shift all the blame of that fact that they are doing it on you.

 

There is no "trigger". There is a choice. A friend of mine had her husband cheat on her. He even told her there was one moment where she shot him down for sex on night and he decided at that moment he was going to step out on his marriage.

 

I told her he had already decided to step out on your marriage before that moment. He just needed a "moment" to pin it on so it became your fault.