To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Zinger - are you conflict avoidant with your wife? I am very alpha but I hate conflict at home and avoid it if I can. Its a bad strategy because avoiding issues usually makes them worse and they never go away on their own. Yet because of my childhood I will go a long way to keep peace in the family. Amy of this sound like you?

 

I don't know how to answer that. In general I'm opposite to being conflict avoiding. It's usually my way or high way. My home, my wife was like an isolated Island where I never had to have a conflict, I had nothing really to avoid.

 

On OM, I get your points and your are right, all of you, I'd just like to mention that going after him that is something I like, but necessary must. I'll give him the weekend, then will get creative again. Nothing major for now, until I figure an opportunity.

 

I know he's a less guilty party here... Yet all involved have to pay : me, FWW and him (why should be have a free pass)?

[zinger]

Thanks for checking. I basically took a day off and spent most of the weekend above in the mountains. Felt like I've had enough based on 3 major set backs (not sure if this is the right description) :

1. I met a divorce lawyer and, while the meeting went well, somehow the info got out (either someone noticed an entry in my diary or spotted me on their office. So the family and FWW know I'm up to something

2. I met IC - apparently it's all my fault and I need to work hard with her to win my wife back.

3. Should have listed it first. I think I'm getting something close to remorse from FWW, so it gets harder to follow through. Still on the course though.

 

zinger? How are you doing?

 

Hope you're taking care of yourself. Also hope you know that there are no expectations here. Well, for me at least. And last, hope you decided to try IC. This is a new phase. Maybe you and wife are talking, maybe not. Either way, you will need a sounding board and guidance more than once.

[No Limit]

2. I met IC - apparently it's all my fault and I need to work hard with her to win my wife back.

 

There are good counselors, but sadly there are very many, many bad counselors (For example I once read in a wayward wives' post that her counselor said that her husband had an OW - his work, so he didn't pay enough attention to her. So basically all the counselor did was justify her affair for her. Incredible!). Definitely drop this one; mind you, counselors who have been wayward spouses in their private life have often been reported here to actually care little about the BS but instead cover for the WS like yours. Not all people are able to give impartial advise.

[eric1]

Why did the IC say it was all your fault?

 

And I think at this point, particularly with divorce looming, remorse and reconciliation can be pretty hard to distinguish from one another.

[zinger]

Basically what NoLimit has said. Apparently there is some flaw in me that forced my wife to seek something outside the marriag. So I need to work with IC to find it, eliminate it and work on me to be a better man. Learn some sort of "languages of love" or something?

 

More time I spent answering (negative) to her questions (no I'm not a heavy drinker, no I have never abused her, no I don't spend to much time in the office or playing sports, yes I give her compliments and gifts, yes I pay attention), the more suspicious she was getting. So I walked out, she suggested my wife to contact her.

 

And yes, that is why I should've put the talks and remorse first. Was getting a good talks and some vibes of what even people here would probably call a remorse. Then my family member told her about the lawyer appointment and my place turned into the brothel on fire in the middle of the flood.

 

I just walked out and let for the weekend.

 

 

IQUOTE=eric1;6380631]Why did the IC say it was all your fault?

 

And I think at this point, particularly with divorce looming, remorse and reconciliation can be pretty hard to distinguish from one another.

[eric1]

I'm going to (respectfully) offer a dissenting opinion from my own experience. All of us are different, and there is no "right" answer.

 

My comment about remorse vs reconciliation wasn't a throwaway comment, I mistook the hell out of it. My ex and I had some deep heart to heart discussions that on paper were great. But it was remorse

 

Reconciliation is a recognition that the cheating spouse is intrinsically broken and her fixing herself is paramount.

 

A truly reconciling spouse, upon hearing about divorce, would probably be emotional. But at the same time, her healing shouldn't be conditional upon any action from you. Reconciling is her wanting to be a better person no matter what. If it's working towards you just not divorcing her, then she's just acting how you want until you...don't get divorced. It's a type of rug sweeping. Damn, it's not a type. It IS rug sweeping.

 

You'll know if she's ever interested in reconciliation when talking about divorce she's more like "I can completely understand why you would divorce me. I don't want this, but I don't blame you". NOT World War 3 breaking out. Now life doesn't always work out that cleanly and the odds are you'd get some shade of grey, but you catch my drift.

 

Again, just my opinion. It smells to me like your wife is doing everything "right" but when things blew up when she heard about the lawyer it was more akin to someone getting caught in the act than anything else.

 

Reader's Digest: I think you did right by leading with legal counsel.

[No Limit]

Basically what NoLimit has said. Apparently there is some flaw in me that forced my wife to seek something outside the marriag. So I need to work with IC to find it, eliminate it and work on me to be a better man. Learn some sort of "languages of love" or something?

 

More time I spent answering (negative) to her questions (no I'm not a heavy drinker, no I have never abused her, no I don't spend to much time in the office or playing sports, yes I give her compliments and gifts, yes I pay attention), the more suspicious she was getting. So I walked out, she suggested my wife to contact her.

 

And yes, that is why I should've put the talks and remorse first. Was getting a good talks and some vibes of what even people here would probably call a remorse. Then my family member told her about the lawyer appointment and my place turned into the brothel on fire in the middle of the flood.

 

I just walked out and let for the weekend.

 

So your counselor thinks you should pursue and be charming to a cheating wife?... Well, whatever was wrong with that counselor her becoming suspicious of you is just plain wrong. No, counselors are not supposed to just tell you what you want to hear. But yes, counselors should work with you and on your problems, not paint the story the way she likes it.

 

Since you have no children with her - don't worry about walking out. You're not responsible for your STBX and frankly she shouldn't be giving you hell over it. Do what's best for you now.

[beatcuff]

... there is some flaw in me that forced my wife to seek something outside the marriage. So I need to work with IC to find it, eliminate it and work on me to be a better man...

 

and there it is: MAN not husband. a good IC needs to push through the symptoms to find the cause. something went wrong. IC can't fix the W so they work on you. in the end maybe you are 100% clean but seriously nothing is; so even fixing that 1% will make your next relationship better/more successful.

 

you will NEVER get there if you only listen to 'yes men' (hint: the posters are running seriously against you continuing your vendetta against the OM but you forge ahead because of one or two).

 

my first meeting with my IC --- well lets just say she was surprised when i wanted another meeting. i did because i know what i know, i need to challenge that. its a win-win: either i was wrong and i fix it or i was right but now i know i truly am.

Edited June 15, 2015 by beatcuff
clarification

[BetrayedH]

Yeah, drop the IC like a hot potato. Marriage counselors many times do the same thing. You need someone who specializes in infidelity. They don't blame the victim.

 

I'm curious what you would consider "remorse" from your wayward wife. I'd be looking for her to be proactively sharing everything she can about the affair. There would be no secrets; she'd be an open book. Remember though, talk is cheap. What is she doing?

 

I also agree with Eric's post but I would change up the terminology a bit. I would say that her panic to avoid a divorce indicates "regret." If she accepted that her actions may cause a divorce that she doesn't want but she's still willing to proceed with it and to do whatever is necessary to help you heal, that speaks to "remorse." But other than the terminology, he's exactly right about what to watch for. A truly remorseful spouse isn't trying to do some kind of self-protective damage-control; they are willing to accept the consequences of their actions, look inward at what was so broken about them to allow them to betray you, and will do whatever it takes to repair the damage to YOU.

[eric1]

Well said, Betrayed

 

This is the link that I had in my mind when typing that.

 

Real Remorse? Or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse? - ChumpLady.com

 

Both Chump Lady and yourself said it better than I

[turnera]

Basically what NoLimit has said. Apparently there is some flaw in me that forced my wife to seek something outside the marriag. So I need to work with IC to find it, eliminate it and work on me to be a better man. Learn some sort of "languages of love" or something?

fwiw, not knowing your wife's Love Languages is the most typical thing men do wrong in a marriage. While her cheating has nothing to do with you - that's HER flaw - your IC is right that if you're going to be married, and want to be happily married (happy wife happy life), it behooves you to learn this stuff. No matter who you end up with.

 

Now, if the IC is blaming the affair on you, find someone else.

[Buckeye2]

3. Should have listed it first. I think I'm getting something close to remorse from FWW, so it gets harder to follow through.

 

My post #182:

 

You may already have enough evidence for yourself in your current state of mind. But you need more for when she’s crying, begging and saying how much she loves you.

 

You also need more evidence for your friends and family so you won’t be the bad guy. Basically if you get a divorce you need to be a victim more than she is. If you divorce her over something trivial she’s the victim.

 

You confronted too soon.

 

“Withdrawal (military): A withdrawal may be undertaken as part of a general retreat, to consolidate forces, to occupy ground that is more easily defended.”

 

Right now you’re bouncing back and forth between an EA and a PA with your wife, her family and even in your own head. Drop the possible PA for now. Stick with something you have absolute proof of. She was dating another man and lied to you and her boss to make time to do it.

 

A lot of planning and deception went into that. Tell her that after a lot of thought you MIGHT be able to forgive a PA but her lying has long term consequences. If she’s taking too long at the grocery store you might trigger and think she’s dating again.

 

That realization is what drove you to see a lawyer. Tell her that you need to learn to trust her again and how can you do that when her story doesn’t add up at all. They aren’t teenagers. Why did the OM run instead of telling you the truth that nothing happened?

 

She will TT you. They only kissed. She gave him a hand job. They had sex once, it was bad and he used a condom. No matter what she tells you don’t freak out. Just thank her for telling you the truth. Then you will have more information to decide what to do.

[BetrayedH]

Well said, Betrayed

 

This is the link that I had in my mind when typing that.

 

Real Remorse? Or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse? - ChumpLady.com

 

Both Chump Lady and yourself said it better than I

 

I thought you painted a very good picture. Good article by chumplady, too.

[aliveagain]

Fire your councillor and find one with experience in infidelity. Nothing you did pushed your wife into the arms of another man, she chose that option on her own and it had nothing to do with you. You will know real remorse when you see it. If she wants to save the marriage she will be willing to pass a polygraph if that's what it takes.

 

She stepped out of the marriage, the burden of proof is on her.

Edited June 15, 2015 by aliveagain

[CarrieT]

Zinger, I am curious how your day-to-day existence with your FWW has been going now that you have - ostensibly - been living at home for a week.

 

You indicated your wife has been has been showing remorse; has being in proximity to her started to sway your resolve?

[merrmeade]

Yes that is the best framework for regret and remorse even I can comprehend.

We did remorse vs regret in #589 & 591; he got it (but will need reminding as we all do).

 

I think you need to regroup and (1) clarify the issue with WW's behavior and GOALS as per Buckeye's suggestions:

• You confronted too soon ...
  
  
• you’re bouncing back and forth between an
  EA
  and a
  PA
  with your wife, her family and even in your own head. Drop the possible
  PA
  for now.
  
  
• Stick with something you have absolute proof of: She was dating another man and lied to you and her boss to make time to do it. A lot of planning and deception went into that. (e.g., Why did the
  OM
  run instead of telling you the truth that nothing happened?)
  
  
• Tell her that after a lot of thought you MIGHT be able to forgive a
  PA
  
  
  but
  her lying has long term consequences.
  
  
• That realization is what drove you to see a lawyer. ...
  
  
• She will TT you.
  
  
• No matter what she tells you don’t freak out... you will have more information to decide what to do.

and (2) keep shopping for the right IC. Didn't somebody say you have to find the right 'fit' for you? Doesn't sound like this is the one.

[autumnnight]

Reconciling is her wanting to be a better person no matter what.

I have to say, this is gold. This is what separates a truly FORMER WW from the WW who doesn't want her BH to leave. If her doing the right thing is contingent on you not leaving, she doesn't get it yet.

[RightThere]

Apparently there is some flaw in me that forced my wife to seek something outside the marriag. So I need to work with IC to find it, eliminate it and work on me to be a better man. Learn some sort of "languages of love" or something?

 

My own opinion on this is usually counter to LS, but although I think your counsellor is way off base, there is some useful stuff for you to self reflect on.

 

Your wife's decision to have an affair was all her. You were in the same marriage with the same difficulties, and you did not sleep with anyone else.

 

However the breakdown in your marriage is a shared responsibility. Many BS's will seek out a counsellor that will only focus on the infidelity and absolve the BS from any wrongdoing in the marriage because the affair was the ultimate evil and and other issue in the marriage don't deserve the same attention.

 

And that's a crock and won't help you become a better person.

 

You did not push your wife into the arms of another man. However you did create distance between you and your wife. The fact that distance got filled by another man was not your choice and was not OK. But where the line is for responsibility I think is greyer than some other people's opinions.

 

I've found my best self reflection has come from looking at all of it (even the stuff I know I don't have any responsibility for) and just asking the question "What could I have done differently?"

[fellini]

Well said, Betrayed

 

This is the link that I had in my mind when typing that.

 

Real Remorse? Or Genuine Imitation Naugahyde Remorse? - ChumpLady.com

 

Both Chump Lady and yourself said it better than I

 

Leave it to chumplady whose byline is "LEAVE A CHEATER, GAIN A LIFE" to have something to say about something she doesn't believe in.

 

Yeah she is fun to read, never fails to dump on WS's dripping with hyperbole and sarcasm. But really, people take these articles as "advice"?

[merrmeade]

I'm worried about you, z. Right now, extreme emotions are driving what everybody's doing, saying and feeling. No one's acting rationally; volatility's out the roof. Nothing is being accomplished. You don't even know what you want. For example, the obsession with OM is worrisome, what could happen. I'm glad you got out in nature, but it's still got a grip and will NOT help in the long run. Can you just put it on hold? No need to act on that yet.

 

Now, this next is going to be controversial:

What if there was no PA yet? I think it's possible. It's possible something's worth saving or at least working to a clearer place of assessment.

 

zinger, what if you and WW drive off all the family and just talk? Give her some reading material. Get her working on finding MC for the both, IC for herself to improve the talking? Maybe you nipped it in the bud and you can start figuring out why between you.

 

I think we're making you hysterical and paranoiac. Not every case is the same. Maybe you need to back off LS for a few days and listen to yourself and your wife. I'm not sure you have to identify with the worst case scenario. Maybe this is early and you can salvage your marriage. Maybe it's worth saving.

 

I told you it would be controversial.

[merrmeade]

I am suddenly doubting what we - what I - have been doing here. For example in this situation and in another thread, the OPs are in life-altering positions. Whatever steps they take will affect the rest of their lives. We posters react to each update and other posts as they come and with truly limited context. I find myself waffling and unsure what direction to encourage the OP to take.

 

zinger, please take mine and other posters' advice with caution, realizing that we do NOT have all the information, we're just people like you, and we can't know all the changes that are happening.

 

I'm going to sit out and observe for a while. I hope I've not misled you and want to encourage you again to find the right support for your goals, actions and decisions. Good luck, my friend.

[zinger]

 

You did not push your wife into the arms of another man. However you did create distance between you and your wife. The fact that distance got filled by another man was not your choice and was not OK. But where the line is for responsibility I think is greyer than some other people's opinions.

 

I think I get it. Actually this is almost word-for-word the line of thinking of the said IC. Her next logical step in the thought process that started with this exact approach - as presented to me- was that since said "creation of a distance and building up the lack of attention" must have been a long and gradual process and the whole affair is a one time and just her sort term "lapse of judgement", I should be really trying hard to make amends. And she needs to contactIC to help her to go " through the difficult period of her life".

 

Who am I to argue with great minds thinking alike.

[zinger]

Not my intent to listen only to "yes" man. Wrt the "vendetta", I have carefully listened to all points of view, based on some provided feedback dropped some crazy ideas that I had in mind and only forging ahead with bate minimum actions I consider appropriate after taking the said feedback onboard.

 

Unfortunately my real name is not Leo Tolstoy.

 

 

and there it is: MAN not husband. a good IC needs to push through the symptoms to find the cause. something went wrong. IC can't fix the W so they work on you. in the end maybe you are 100% clean but seriously nothing is; so even fixing that 1% will make your next relationship better/more successful.

 

you will NEVER get there if you only listen to 'yes men' (hint: the posters are running seriously against you continuing your vendetta against the OM but you forge ahead because of one or two).

 

my first meeting with my IC --- well lets just say she was surprised when i wanted another meeting. i did because i know what i know, i need to challenge that. its a win-win: either i was wrong and i fix it or i was right but now i know i truly am.

[No Limit]

And she needs to contactIC to help her to go " through the difficult period of her life".

 

I do think your wife needs serious help. But I'm not sure this IC is the right one. In the end she may just say "oh you poor thing, you had no choice but to screw another man"-type of stuff and worst case will be that your STBX will turn into a serial cheater because of crap like that.

[RightThere]

I think I get it. Actually this is almost word-for-word the line of thinking of the said IC. Her next logical step in the thought process that started with this exact approach - as presented to me- was that since said "creation of a distance and building up the lack of attention" must have been a long and gradual process and the whole affair is a one time and just her sort term "lapse of judgement", I should be really trying hard to make amends. And she needs to contactIC to help her to go " through the difficult period of her life".

 

Who am I to argue with great minds thinking alike.

 

I don't want to see you go too far to one side of the argument that it's a "poor her / lapse of judgement" type situation.

 

She cheated. And for an extended period of time. All of it was a choice that she made out of her own free will.

 

But the ability to cheat and where it ranks in the moral wrongness scale is different from person to person. Many BS's here rank infidelity very high on the wrongness scale. That doesn't mean it is any worse than someone who emotionally abuses their spouse.

 

I totally agree with making amends. I am in the process of that as well with my STBXW. But don't confuse making amends with reconciliation. They are not the same. One is to forgive yourself and apologize for ending up in the situation you are both in. The other is to rebuild a relationship from scratch.

 

I am making amends with my STBXW. But we are no longer reconciling. Recognize the difference because reconciling cannot happen to early, or you'll waste time in false reconciliation and probably end up worse off.