To bust or not to bust

[fellini]

To clarify: about 4 months ago we touched the subject. The context was based on the situation of the couple we have seen socially couple of times:

W: do you know A was caught cheating on B?

Me: (causally as I was busy doing something else). Well that's a shame, how is their divorce going?

W: Why are you assuming they are divorcing?

Me: (slightly surprised) How else should a man react to this?

W: So if I was cheating you wouldn't give me a second chance?

Me: You know I can forgive you almost anything - but not this.

W: Changes the topic

 

So I'll just remind her of that conversation and reiterate that if she is hypothetically she is caught being unfaithful - we will be done

 

MASSIVE trigger for me. My situation was in the reverse order of yours... or was it?

 

I innocently took my wife's IPad to a meeting one day. I opened it, and she hadn't properly closed chrome. Up popped a google search "psychology of infidelity". Knowing my wife was the most faithful and wonderful woman on the planet, I thought, ah, she is trying to help out a friend. I actually forgot about it for about 2 weeks. Until one afternoon she was acting just too interested in going for a staff dinner. I don't know why, but I blurted out - "hey why were you googling infidelity on your ipad recently".

 

She came and sat down.

 

W: I was looking into something for X.

H: Who is having an affair?

W: Well it depends, what's your position on infidelity?

H: I don't know, I guess it happens. Who is it?

W: Actually it's not X. "I'm seeing someone else"

 

(Atomic bomb explodes, body is numb. Im partially deaf from the ringing in my ears. Visions of 19 years of my life flash away and the world will never look the same for the rest of my life).

 

The thing is, as soon as she said that, I knew who it was.

 

so Ill tell you this. She was looking at the internet because she was pretty deep into it. She wasn't "thinking about it". She allowed herself to get to a place where one gets without realising that now it's too late to do "the right thing". She was such a coward that she even refused to end it properly, tell me about it properly.

 

What I learned from the past 2 years, seeing where you are today, is this:

 

My wife gave up her AP not because she felt she was stupid, she gave him up because the thought of the entire world finding out about her cheating was more devastating to her than ending her affair. She gave him up, because essentially she had to to stay married. Not because she did the wrong thing. Not because she wasn't interested in continuing, because she was, she was only 2 hours from having slept with him that afternoon, and about to go spend another 5 hours with him that night.

 

You might need to have the discussion I later had to have with my WW when we were moving through recovery (about month 2). "I'm going to take our daughter on a holiday to Canada to see my family. If you are truly in love with this man, in spite of throwing him under the bus, then pack your bags and do not be here when we come back. If you are here, it is because you want to stay, and he is no longer a threat to our marriage.

 

The short end of that was she begged me not to leave her in town alone for the month of august. She was such a coward she couldn't even trust herself to do the right thing even after DDay. Once a WS is deeply into the affair, it won't matter how kind, how open, how understanding, or how patient you are, they are so locked into the drug of the fantasy they cannot do "the right thing". So for most of the first period after DDay a lot of BullS happens until you can actually feel that what is no longer on the table is the AP, but the marriage itself.

 

It took me about 8 months to get the AP completely and utterly off the table, so that we could begin the hard work of asking ourselves if we really wanted to stay married.

 

Off the top I recommend that you leave a copy of Michelle Langley's Women's Infidelity II (part two is about her if she is in an EA/PA) or AT LEAST visit her website and print the 4 stages of limbo and have your wife read them while you are "out of town". I think she will see herself quite clearly in Langley's work if you two have a marriage of some years behind you.

 

Best of luck.

Edited May 21, 2015 by fellini

[zinger]

We had a talk. It "technically" went very well. I wasn't entirely sure about how should I start it, but there was some stupid soap opera on TV at the time that involved cheating so this have me a prefect segway into want I was going to say. I reminded her about my stance on infidelity using this and made my point very clear. She didn't flinch. I do not believe she is capable of being such a good actress; she took it with humour ala "oh, classic situation, husband goes on a business trip... Do you expect to find the gardener under our bed when you return"?

 

She couldn't be that calm of she was hiding something sinister I assume. Yet something still doesn't feel right and I'm leaving with a heavy heart. Usually she would have noticed that and wouldn't give up until she knows the root cause. Not this time.

 

And Fellini, I'm reading your post and actually freaking out.

[oldshirt]

Plant a few voice activated recorders around the house and in her car just in case.

[BetrayedH]

Invest in a voice activated recorder or two. Place one under the steering column of her car. Place another in the house where she might make calls. I'm told Best Buy carries them for about $50.

 

And I would buy a GPS for her car.

 

Stop confronting her. If there's anything going on, all you're doing is showing her that she needs to take it further underground. Do you really feel like your little chat solved anything? Do you feel that it prevented an affair from happening? All you're doing is showing your cards.

 

At some point, you're going to be faced with making a decision about staying in this marriage or not. You have no idea how important and elusive factual information can be in that situation. How the eff do you make an informed decision about something so important without any facts? If your wife did anything after that little chat with you, it was to delete her messages and tell the guy that it's time to be mor careful.

 

Keep doing what you're doing and you will NEVER know the truth. Good luck making a decision in that scenario. You have one chance to get to the bottom of this. Don't screw it up.

[zinger]

Thank you all. May I please attempt to make one point very clear: everything is set up and measures are in place so I will know everything that may be going on in my absence.

 

Judging by her reaction I (at least at the logical level) believe that nothing has happened but I need to know this beyond doubt.

[BetrayedH]

Thank you all. May I please attempt to make one point very clear: everything is set up and measures are in place so I will know everything that may be going on in my absence.

 

Judging by her reaction I (at least at the logical level) believe that nothing has happened but I need to know this beyond doubt.

 

Good deal. My apologies, I missed your post from late afternoon yesterday that you'd set up the surveillance.

 

For your sake, I hope we're all just grasping at straws and you come home to see she had a boring weekend.

[Morro72]

If you do conclude that "nothing has happened" it sounds like you and your wife could benefit from some work on your marriage, or this sort of suspicion and anxiety (if it is only that) will continue to crop up.

[BetrayedH]

Honestly, her reaction means little to nothing. When people get into these affairs, they repeatedly envision what that conversation will be like and steel themselves to keep their cool. They tell themselves that if you don't have solid proof, they just need to keep their cool while they lie, deny, and minimize.

 

If you were cheating on your wife, wouldn't you have thought out what a confrontation from your wife might look like? Trust me, they've thought about what they will do if confronted. They all figure that if you suspect but don't "know" anything, then they just need to not screw it up. If they don't admit anything, you'll never know. So they resolve to never admit anything. And tell themselves that it's to protect you. Under-reacting to your conversation is a common tactic to look innocent.

[Buckeye2]

My wife gave up her AP not because she felt she was stupid, she gave him up because the thought of the entire world finding out about her cheating was more devastating to her than ending her affair. She gave him up, because essentially she had to to stay married. Not because she did the wrong thing. Not because she wasn't interested in continuing, because she was, she was only 2 hours from having slept with him that afternoon, and about to go spend another 5 hours with him that night.

 

You might need to have the discussion I later had to have with my WW when we were moving through recovery (about month 2). "I'm going to take our daughter on a holiday to Canada to see my family. If you are truly in love with this man, in spite of throwing him under the bus, then pack your bags and do not be here when we come back. If you are here, it is because you want to stay, and he is no longer a threat to our marriage.

 

The short end of that was she begged me not to leave her in town alone for the month of august. She was such a coward she couldn't even trust herself to do the right thing even after DDay. Once a WS is deeply into the affair, it won't matter how kind, how open, how understanding, or how patient you are, they are so locked into the drug of the fantasy they cannot do "the right thing". So for most of the first period after DDay a lot of BullS happens until you can actually feel that what is no longer on the table is the AP, but the marriage itself.

 

The above should be a sticky.

 

It always amazes me that when confronted the WS has a sudden epiphany and realizes that they love their BS. The affair was free fun until they were discovered. Now there is a high price they don’t want to pay.

 

It’s like a bank robber being caught and facing 20 years in prison. The remorse and emotions are very real but it’s not because of guilt. They truly wish that they never robbed the bank but only because they face prison time.

[beatcuff]

Judging by her reaction I (at least at the logical level) believe that nothing has happened but I need to know this beyond doubt.

 

i'm with tayla on this one. this thread has been written many times. OP has a 'feeling' and is given the standard 'gather evidence'.

 

but you have asked your W straight up. you appear to be comforted by her response and demeanor. yet you choose to go full investigative.

 

have you considered what if she is right AND then finds out what you did. if she wrote in to LS, the overwhelming response would be YOU were having an A and are projecting. in fact everything you suspect could be reversed: you used to go on business trips together now not.

 

more importantly it will be VERY clear to W that you no longer trust her. she will wonder what changed --- YOU. her GFs will have a field day.

 

you need to reconcile your 'talk' with her/your quote above and your actions now. tread lightly.

 

good luck.

[gettingstronger]

I agree with the treading lightly- you have gotten yourself pretty wound up here- not saying thats right or wrong or that your gut is right or wrong-just saying that in general, we do better when we take a minute to collect ourselves before we act (spoken from experience, by someone that has lost their **** more times than I care to think about since dday)

 

Good luck and take care of you-

[Buckeye2]

more importantly it will be VERY clear to W that you no longer trust her. she will wonder what changed --- YOU. her GFs will have a field day.

 

Most women like it when their husband is a LITTLE jealous. It shows he doesn’t take her for granted and knows that other men find her attractive.

 

this thread has been written many times. OP has a 'feeling' and is given the standard 'gather evidence'.

 

I understand your point. I’m a medical examiner in real life and it gives me a skewed view of the world. Everything bad that happens in 100 mile radius comes to me. I pucker when I see someone on a motorcycle or even a bicycle.

 

Nonetheless people that suspect unfaithfulness AND go to the trouble of posting on a forum are not a random group.

[BetrayedH]

If you do conclude that "nothing has happened" it sounds like you and your wife could benefit from some work on your marriage, or this sort of suspicion and anxiety (if it is only that) will continue to crop up.

 

Agreed.

 

If he investigates and finds nothing, it's a win. And at that point, I'd urge a confession on his part and express a real desire to strengthen the marriage. They'd need to build intimacy. His honesty would be the right step in that direction.

 

But we'll see. Many of us here have learned the hard way that we should trust our gut in these situations. I don't recall many situations where an OP was advised to quietly investigate and found nothing. And I've been around here a while.

[Morro72]

It seems to me that the OP has enough to go on that it makes sense to do a little digging. I agree with BetrayedH that OP's wife's response in their recent conversation doesn't mean a lot. I think most people who start off with an attitude of unconditional trust in their marriages sooner or later encounter something - not necessarily or even usually infidelity - that causes them to adopt something closer to "trust but verify." That's certainly been the case in my marriage.

[BetrayedH]

It seems to me that the OP has enough to go on that it makes sense to do a little digging. I agree with BetrayedH that OP's wife's response in their recent conversation doesn't mean a lot. I think most people who start off with an attitude of unconditional trust in their marriages sooner or later encounter something - not necessarily or even usually infidelity - that causes them to adopt something closer to "trust but verify." That's certainly been the case in my marriage.

 

Yes, and she may certainly have some angst over his "trust but verify" approach but that's also not the biggest sin ever committed in a marriage. It doesn't come from a place of malice. It comes from concern over the marriage. And a voluntary confession on his part (if there's nothing found) would speak greatly to that. Will it be a fun moment for their marriage? Of course not. At the same time, most (all?) marriages have a bump in the road and I'd think this is one they could survive. It may also be a wake-up call for both of them to reinvigorate the marriage.

[Realist3]

Honestly, her reaction means little to nothing. When people get into these affairs, they repeatedly envision what that conversation will be like and steel themselves to keep their cool. They tell themselves that if you don't have solid proof, they just need to keep their cool while they lie, deny, and minimize.

 

If you were cheating on your wife, wouldn't you have thought out what a confrontation from your wife might look like? Trust me, they've thought about what they will do if confronted. They all figure that if you suspect but don't "know" anything, then they just need to not screw it up. If they don't admit anything, you'll never know. So they resolve to never admit anything. And tell themselves that it's to protect you. Under-reacting to your conversation is a common tactic to look innocent.

 

 

No truer words!

 

Zinger, I think you are doing the right things in gathering possible evidence, I hope it turns up negative. You have taken a wise approach in not confronting with nothing. 9 times out 10 if you go in with nothing you will come out with nothing.

 

I will share with you the most glaring sign, and the most difficult to conceal, and that is the emotional impact/burden on the wayward spouse. You said she is not that good of an actress. Well, a cheating spouse must be a great actor of they are not to be caught. You mentioned some things that raised your alarms outwardly, but think back and try and recall if you noticed any emotional changes.

 

 

 

Best of luck.

[Lois_Griffin]

She couldn't be that calm of she was hiding something sinister I assume.

There's that awful word - assume.

 

That, my friend, will get you steamrolled.

[GorillaTheater]

It seems to me that the OP has enough to go on that it makes sense to do a little digging. I agree with BetrayedH that OP's wife's response in their recent conversation doesn't mean a lot. I think most people who start off with an attitude of unconditional trust in their marriages sooner or later encounter something - not necessarily or even usually infidelity - that causes them to adopt something closer to "trust but verify." That's certainly been the case in my marriage.

 

Mine too. It's nothing I've spent much time talking about, but I came here originally because I woke up to the fact that something was very off with my marriage. I used a few evidence-gathering techniques because I wanted to rule out infidelity as a possibility. I couldn't rule it out with 100% certainty in my case, but I'd recommend attempting to do so in any case where something is severely "off". Lord knows it's a common enough cause.

 

Not being able to rule it out to my satisfaction (and I'm not ending a 30 year marriage with any less), I worked on my myself, starting with reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "Married Man Sex Life Primer". The latter could likely be criticized for the misogyny that pops up, but I found it helpful. I'd recommend the self-improvement route to any man as well.

[understand50]

Let us all hope for the best for Zinger......

895

[drifter777]

Thanks all,

 

A lot of good feedback and suggestions. A sound body of knowledge that allowed me to - finally - evaluate my options and pencil the action plan. I'll post it later hoping you all will be kind enough to have a look.

 

In the meantime :

 

1) Evidence gathering work is in progress. I have studied the links and the process of settings things up is under way. At this moment I'd prefer not to detail what I'm planning but it will involve electronic and physical ssurveillance. Call me paranoid but one of the (what you seem to be calling red flags) for me was a Web history of dating, relationship and infidelity websites (her browser crashed and when restarted it restored the last session). So I don't want to reveal any details now if it makes any sense.

 

 

2) I have decided to go on the trip. I need to end this, and get out of it either with my shield or on it. Tertium non datur. I have however postponed it by one day so I can gent everything ready. Will also mean I'll spend the Saturday away from home.

 

3) Morro, that "go together" suggestion was spot on. We used to go together on my business trips all the time. Great experience for both of us. The fact that this time she was not that keen to go was another red flag for me.

This is all good and it's likely you will catch her this weekend. We had one poster on here a few months ago who suspected his wife was cheating, had very strong evidence, and hired a PI to keep tabs on her. It took several weeks but the PI finally busted her. The Betrayed Husband was crushed, of course, but very thankful he finally knew the truth. Point is, just because you don't bust her right away don't think you were just being paranoid. She may have smelled a trap due to your "cheating" talk yesterday and your general demeanor. Cheaters who are madly in love with all the excitement and fun of the affair will go to great lengths to keep it going. Taking a short break due to a suspicious husband happens all the time.

[onemanband]

One thing you should try is to be super effectionant try to kiss her see if she pulls away or if she doesn't want to be touched that's a tell

What you should do is leave your phone in the car and ask her to use her phone to find yours if she doesn't want you to use the phone there it is

[BetrayedH]

I'm very curious about what signs you've seen and what you've investigated already.

 

Have you accessed her phone? Looked for texts, texting apps (kik, snapchat, yahoo messenger, etc), internet history?

Computer?

FaceBook?

Phone bill for frequently called numbers, texts (especially if they are deleted), or excessive data usage?

Financial statements?

Searched her car for a second phone?

 

These are all freebies.

[nightmare01]

A good start to a convo with your wife might be "I'm not comfortable with your relationship with <OM>" then when she says it's all innocent (and of course that's what she will say) you can reply with "that's good because if you were actually have an affair I'd divorce you in a hot minute and tell <OM> wife all about it".

 

Remember also that courts convict on purely circumstantial evidence all the time. You don't have to catch them in the act or have that smoking gun. Any action that has no credible alternative excuse than an affair will do it.

[nightmare01]

I'm very curious about what signs you've seen and what you've investigated already.

 

Have you accessed her phone? Looked for texts, texting apps (kik, snapchat, yahoo messenger, etc), internet history?

Computer?

FaceBook?

Phone bill for frequently called numbers, texts (especially if they are deleted), or excessive data usage?

Financial statements?

Searched her car for a second phone?

 

These are all freebies.

 

I'd like to add here that signs that she is deliberately covering up something is also evidence. Deleted Internet history, deleted texts from her phone, all these things are sure signs she is hiding something. And the old BS maxim is "those with nothing to hide, hide nothing".

[BetrayedH]

I'd like to add here that signs that she is deliberately covering up something is also evidence. Deleted Internet history, deleted texts from her phone, all these things are sure signs she is hiding something. And the old BS maxim is "those with nothing to hide, hide nothing".

 

I wouldn't say that these are "sure" signs but I think I agree with the theme of your posts. The way I might phrase it is that he doesn't need to prove to her that she's cheating; she knows the truth. He just needs to prove it to himself. The tough part is that he needs to be confident enough in the evidence to follow thru with a life-changing decision, like divorce. Most spouses won't divorce iver circumstantial evidence and signs. They want to see it in black and white.