To bust or not to bust

[Poutrew]

Here's another thought for Zinger to ponder over: Is the artist going to declare the cost of the watch to the IRS for tax purposes? The guy can't even afford to buy an honest tube of paint, but he *must* come up with a third of the cost of the watch to hand over to the government next April. Poor guy will probably have to sell the watch to pay the taxes...

 

 

Zinger, your wife will notify the IRS about this purchase, wont she? Then again, if she bought it with your money, it's your honor:bunny:

[RoseVille]

Here's another thought for Zinger to ponder over: Is the artist going to declare the cost of the watch to the IRS for tax purposes? The guy can't even afford to buy an honest tube of paint, but he *must* come up with a third of the cost of the watch to hand over to the government next April. Poor guy will probably have to sell the watch to pay the taxes...

 

 

Zinger, your wife will notify the IRS about this purchase, wont she? Then again, if she bought it with your money, it's your honor:bunny:

 

This isn't an accurate description of how gift tax works, at least not in the United States.

[Kalrayan]

Drifter777,

 

Good point that you made. Wrong choice of words on my part. Never my intention to impose my thinking on Zinger/ forum. But if Divorce is the only option for all infidelities (otherwise it is seen as the WW has got away with it), the talk on reconciliation appears meaningless to me. Is it R after D only?

[zinger]

Thanks everyone,

 

A lot of great posts, which I will respond when I'm back at my laptop (on the phone atm). For now - some of them are unnaturally close: to a degree that (I hope I'm not violating any rules here) if in 2-3 weeks max I dont get a resolution I'll be asking a few of you if you are doing this for living (with an obvious intent to get to more specifics if you do - in private).

 

To the administration : please let me know if I should not do this.

 

On the lie defector. Update. Initially I planned to let her know as soon as I have one booked (so it won't be an empty threat if they are not available to the general public). However I googled and there is a hell lot of them, plus I got a referral to a specific one (in addition to just asking questions from my list this team will work with me to get the list right, this is from my surveillance guy). So I told her in line with advice here (the last chance to save everything, etc). And (as BetrayedH suggested, I won't strap her if she goes all the way with it, or if she insists and passes).

 

 

Her reaction was :

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups

2. Agreed to do it after she calmed down. Said she "understands and willing to go through to keep me". Asked if this can be done at home (I don't know)

3. A barrage of calls from family started some hours later calling me - basically- cruel and asking to not to ashame the family and if I understand the gravity (a lot of vibes similar to what 81West was posting).

 

All that is where I'm at for the rest of weekend.

 

Wrt the watch and financial aspect: Yes, she was buying me expensive gifts (so did I obviously). Financial aspect of this gift is not important to me. I make an overwhelming majority of our money, all deposits - her and mine - go the same accounts automatically and we never split anything. So I don't know how to answer of she bought these watches (and everything else for OM) with "my ' or" her" money.

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

She did not cheat on your family . She cheats on you and your family does not have to climb into bed with her every night . You are an intelligent adult and quite frankly unless your family has walked in your shoes their opinion does not mean crap.

 

Second, not a great reaction turning pale and getting the hiccups . With nothing to hide the reaction should have been a smile and a "let's get it on" attitude .

Reluctantly agreeing means right now she could not figure out how to avoid it.

She had no choice as if she flat out refused we know what you would have said .

 

Not sure where you are located but I doubt you can get it done at home unless you want to spend a lot more .

You need to make the call . But your choices are either rugseeep it, R or D , and wonder for who knows how long if you made a decision with facts . Or do the test and have a much greater chance of knowing the facts . Her stonewalling you makes these two choices all you have and while there are differences in whether or not to do the test the has been pretty much consensus NOT believing that this was a lot more than you have been told . She ain't going to tell you one more thing voluntarily even if you post for another 50'pages . Her only chance is to do what she is doing and that is stall , hope your family pressures you to stay with her , and that you forget about the poly test.

[singer23]

Zinger, love does indeed make people blind..

 

Her story is full of **** and entirely implausible. You would have seen it if it was someone else's story. Your combined history probably makes you look for even the slightest hope that what she told you is the truth..

 

It is heartbreaking to read your post somehow. I think you are setting yourself up for a lot of pain if you do not accept the reality of the situation. The woman you married changed. She is human and can make mistakes. You say divorce, but you are not in anyway prepared for it. You say logic but it is your emotions that are driving you at the moment. Good luck and take care..

[Poutrew]

Do *not* do it (polygraph) at home. You want her comfort level to be low. A clinical setting, with researchers wearing white lab smocks, and a smell of isopropyl alcohol in the air is the ambiance you should be aiming for. The more serious and 'scientific' the setting, the better...

Edited June 21, 2015 by Poutrew

[singer23]

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups

2. Agreed to do it after she calmed down. Said she "understands and willing to go through to keep me". Asked if this can be done at home (I don't know)

 

 

Right now, she has no incentive to come clean. Her repeated claims about keeping you don't sound too good.

 

I think you should make it clear to her that you might even forgive her for physical infidelity(whether you mean it or not) but it is absolutely unforgivable and will divorce her immediately if you find she is still lying. Give her a day or two to make any changes to her story and tell her any new findings after that would be divorce worthy even if it 2 , 3 or 10 years after this and you would absolutely any respect for her as a person.

[aliveagain]

Thanks everyone,

 

A lot of great posts, which I will respond when I'm back at my laptop (on the phone atm). For now - some of them are unnaturally close: to a degree that (I hope I'm not violating any rules here) if in 2-3 weeks max I dont get a resolution I'll be asking a few of you if you are doing this for living (with an obvious intent to get to more specifics if you do - in private).

 

To the administration : please let me know if I should not do this.

 

On the lie defector. Update. Initially I planned to let her know as soon as I have one booked (so it won't be an empty threat if they are not available to the general public). However I googled and there is a hell lot of them, plus I got a referral to a specific one (in addition to just asking questions from my list this team will work with me to get the list right, this is from my surveillance guy). So I told her in line with advice here (the last chance to save everything, etc). And (as BetrayedH suggested, I won't strap her if she goes all the way with it, or if she insists and passes).

 

 

Her reaction was :

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups

2. Agreed to do it after she calmed down. Said she "understands and willing to go through to keep me". Asked if this can be done at home (I don't know)

3. A barrage of calls from family started some hours later calling me - basically- cruel and asking to not to ashame the family and if I understand the gravity (a lot of vibes similar to what 81West was posting).

 

All that is where I'm at for the rest of weekend.

 

Wrt the watch and financial aspect: Yes, she was buying me expensive gifts (so did I obviously). Financial aspect of this gift is not important to me. I make an overwhelming majority of our money, all deposits - her and mine - go the same accounts automatically and we never split anything. So I don't know how to answer of she bought these watches (and everything else for OM) with "my ' or" her" money.

 

She should be happy to take the test after all, she has nothing to fear if she has not lied. Finally she can prove her innocence. When you caught her on her date with the artist and she ran away from you she had a friend call you to ask you if it was safe to bring her home, than she had her family call you. Now that you told her that she has to take and pass a polygraph she again reaches out to her family and has them attempt to intervene. These are not the actions of a innocent person, these are the actions of someone caught that needs to make her problem go away. Expect the pressure from family to increase the closer you get to the polygraph date. She's trapped.

[Just a Guy]

Hi Zinger, I am not sure where exactly you are going with this i.e. whether proceeding with divorce or waiting to see if your wife reveals any further details before you take a decision, but I must say that her last reaction to your asking her to take the polygraph test indicates without doubt that she had definitely had a PA with her OM. If it was just and EA or as she put it " An inappropriate emotional attachment" then this would NOT have been her reaction. She is obviously very scared that the polygraph will reveal her darkest secrets(whether it actually will or not) and that fright is what resulted in her reacting in the way she did.

 

I must say I feel sorry for your wife as I would for any human being caught in a situation where, even if they were responsible for bringing it on themselves, they do not have the wherewithall to handle the consequences and find themselves drowning. You see the fact is your wife is not a criminal in the sense that a hardened murderer or thief is. She let her emotions get the better of her and what may have started out as an entirely philanthropic endeavour gradually turned into something else and the emotional high that she got while interacting with the OM led her on a downward path where she lost complete control and ended up having this affair with this guy.

 

This is not to say that she is somehow innocent and that she does not deserve the consequences of her action. After all if someone is driving a car and nods off for a while, the resulting crash can end in killing that person or maiming him/her for life. One may feel bad for the person but he/she has to bear the consequences of their error.

 

As far as your decision is concerned I would say that it will be the natural consequence of your value system and your own emotional structure. No one else can dictate or predict what you will do in such circumstances. Being the person you are I am sure that after taking the advice of all concerned including those who are posting here, you will take a decision in complete consonance with your personality and emotional make up. No doubt it is going to be painful, after all you are dealing with your wife's truancy and as you have said, she has been someone you loved unconditionally and who you trusted blindly. It is as if you had presented her with a sharp kitchen knife to use in the kitchen and then, when you had your back to her, she took the opportunity to stab you in the back.

 

I think 81 West has been labouring a very convoluted point of view based firstly, on her own expectations of what you should be doing and secondly, on something you mentioned about leaving a small window of opportunity for your wife for reconciliation/ re engagement depending on her showing remorse and coming clean completely about her affair. However divorce, in any case would go ahead since it was a natural corollary of an affair. I think such constructs do not really apply here in your case because as you said in one of your earliest posts, you and she had had a talk about a couple that you knew where the wife had an affair and you asked your wife how the divorce was going. Her reply was "Why do you assume that they are divorcing?" To this you had replied that that is what you would do if your wife was ever guilty of infidelity. Her reaction to this was to change the subject immediately. Thus she knew what the consequences of infidelity would be if it were to affect you two. Her changing the subject was probably due to the fact that she was already involved in the affair and she was afraid that any further talk of this would reveal her own affair.

 

In a nutshell I would like to say that you can be more or less certain that your wife had a PA with her OM and her initial reaction to your asking her to take a polygraph is testimony to that fact. What you do with this information is your own concern. Warm Regards.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Just a Guy

[eric1]

Zinger,

 

In my opinion you are right to have the polygraph but I do think you are at an excuse building stage. You have committed to a course of action and introduction of new variables will cause emotional distress to both of you.

 

She needs to know that the polygraph likely will not 'save' anything. You need to proceed with the divorce. She needs to know that her being honest with you and helping you heal is the primary goal, it's very telling all she gives a crap about is 'saving' *her* marriage. She needs to stop using family members to manipulate you. It's awful because it clearly works and you know it.

 

Everything is backwards here man. She wants nothing to do with reassuring you of anything, isn't interested in you healing and just gives a crap about status quo. To say that I've been there and done that would be an understatement. Rip off the bandage.

[zinger]

I am divorcing, going as fast as the process allows. I didn't make any promises as to what polygraph results may change.

 

I guess I just need to know why exactly am I divorcing and was it worth flashing 15 years of good marriage down the toilet.

 

I have accepted the near 100 percent likehood she slept with him. It'll take an enormous coincidence of a soap opera proportions to convince me otherwise.

 

And you a drifter are correct. Yes she protests the PA but not making attempts to prove it to me. Its more like "you know me I wouldn't do that". Doesn't understand her credibility is 0? Well woman I knew wouldn't lie to me or hand hold the other man either. She didn't try to offer the poly or, say, build the detailed timeline trying to claim they physically cannot have time to do the deed.

 

Just venting here in my spare time and yes, it needs to stop. Either I have a confession before the poly, or she'll say "screw you" when she sees the papers.

 

Zinger,

 

In my opinion you are right to have the polygraph but I do think you are at an excuse building

stage. You have committed to a course of action and introduction of new variables will cause emotional distress to both of you.

 

She needs to know that the polygraph likely will not 'save' anything. You need to proceed with the divorce. She needs to know that her being honest with you and helping you heal is the primary goal, it's very telling all she gives a crap about is 'saving' *her* marriage. She needs to stop using family members to manipulate you. It's awful because it clearly works and you know it.

 

Everything is backwards here man. She wants nothing to do with reassuring you of anything, isn't interested in you healing and just gives a crap about status quo. To say that I've been there and done that would be an understatement. Rip off the bandage.

[zinger]

If my wife accused me of having sex with OW and I didn't then I would have scheduled the polygraph as soon as humanly possible. I would have moved heaven and earth to prove my innocence. Has she done anything at all to prove her innocence? Anything?

 

You are absolutely right. See my previous post.

[zinger]

That is very convincing and scaringly accurate.

 

So are subsequent posts by Alivegain and Charger

 

The thing is that Zinger's wife was reading about affairs way back at the start of this thread. She knew exactly what she was doing. I'm sure she read about the pain suffered by betrayed spouses. She had a chance to end it there and then after Zinger made clear he would divorce her if she had an affair. .........but.....she didn't.

 

She was so deep in the affair and didn't realise her behaviour was causing suspicion.

 

From her reading, she knows what to do to prove it wasn't a PA. One WW said she'd die before she took a poly. Then finally after a year, because he BH couldn't move on she agreed to a poly. The day before the poly, she finally confessed it was PA.

 

He still went through with the poly and there was a whole lot more. She thought repetitively denying it was a PA was enough, because she knew her H would divorce her if it was a PA..........she was right......he filed the very same day of the poly results .

 

She carried on and this nonsensical crap about it being motherly is a joke .....I mean really ......what does she take you for. I think too many unfaithful spouses think because their spouse loves them , they will forgive and reconcile without question.

Edited June 21, 2015 by zinger

[zinger]

Thanks for reminding, it's been a month and everything has changed so much. So ill go with poly (why not), won't stop digging for more info, but as soon as I haven't been provided with a single good reason to change my believes it'll last for not much longer - till I find evidence of pa or papers are served, whatever comes first.

 

 

 

Zinger

 

Here's the bottom line . When you first posted you had totally different opinions on whether or not from your wife's behavior you should be suspicious at all . There were those, some still giving you advice , that told you that you were being concerned about nothing, and there were those of us who smelled this from the first post .

At this point after over 40' pages of responses you still basically know very little factual information for sure . All you know if that she had an inappropriate relationship that involved a little kissing and a gift, and you have a bunch of reasons and explanations from her that only a four year old would believe, and you are way too smart for that.

Now that may be enough for you to either D or R , but if not you have a standoff here. She is not going to tell you anything more since she probably knows it will kill any chances of R.

So I'll let the legal scholars here debate the poly reliability and ask you what other tools do you have if you want the truth . I don't think water boarding her will be acceptable and you are NOT in a court of law so that is irrelevant

 

She obviously wants to stay married . Her fun is over . Now I guess you have to make the decision on standing pat in this standoff or pulling the d trigger or r trigger . Hope you choose correctly

[aliveagain]

The two people that know the truth are working together to keep it from you. No husband or wife should have secrets they share with an other man or other woman that is kept secret from their spouse. A healthy marriage can't survive that kind of deception. You may want to google "Josephs Letter" rewrite it and addressed to her than wait for her response. The letter is written by a man Joseph(he was a member of the BAN MESSAGE BOARD) seeking the truth from his wife about his suspicions regarding her affair. It is very moving and may work well for you and your situation.

 

P.S. Both your wife and other man have run away from you, innocent people don't run away.

Edited June 21, 2015 by aliveagain

[sandylee1]

Zinger,

 

She needs to know that the polygraph likely will not 'save' anything. You need to proceed with the divorce. She needs to know that her being honest with you and helping you heal is the primary goal

 

 

.

 

Actually I don't think she needs to know anything about Zinger's thoughts. She knew his thoughts on infidelity but went ahead anyway.

 

Zinger is entitled to keep his plans to himself until he decides tell her what he's doing.

[drifter777]

zinger: it occurred to me that there is a painful element to all this that you have not had to endure - TT or Trickle Truth. That's because, until now, there has been little or no danger that you would start finding that truth on your own. Since you dropped the polygraph bomb she may begin to drop little crumbs of truth in order to satisfy you and stop the polygraph. She could even make things up that seem like confessions but are fairy tales. Like "we only made out" or "it only happened once" or the oldest WW line in the world "the sex was terrible". If she begins to drop these nuggets of "truth" on you be prepare for TT to follow. The things she tell's you will fail your own logic test and not fit the timeline. The "facts" she reveals will keep changing to fit her bullsh*t story. As you debunk each fairy tale and discover the real truth it can feel as though it's d-day all over again.

 

Continue to insist on full disclosure as a condition to even discuss any of this with her. She's going to break down and come clean only when she believes this is her only chance.

[turnera]

Her reaction was :

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups

2. Agreed to do it after she calmed down. Said she "understands and willing to go through to keep me". Asked if this can be done at home (I don't know)

3. A barrage of calls from family started some hours later calling me - basically- cruel and asking to not to ashame the family and if I understand the gravity (a lot of vibes similar to what 81West was posting).

First, great job. Keep it up.

 

Second, re: family: BOO HOO. Your response: "It wouldn't be happening if your child/sibling/relative hadn't done what she did. You have a beef? Take it up with her."

[66Charger]

[quote=zinger;6391306Her reaction was :

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups.

 

The same look on her face when she was caught in the mall parking lot?

 

And she is enlisting others to get you to cancel it?

 

Not a good sign. Prepare yourself or just skip it. You have your answer.

 

When the sh@t hits the fan, a persons character comes out.

Edited June 21, 2015 by 66Charger

[BetrayedH]

I'd encourage you to consider what you'll do once you have the results. This is why I mentioned the unreliability of polys. If she "passes" the poly, that won't mean that she didn't have sex with the OM. And if she fails the poly, it won't mean that she did.

 

Someone said she'd have as good of a chance of being struck by lightning as beating the test. Chances of being struck by lightning are .0003% in a given year. Even the best statistics for polys (cited by the APA) are 95% confidence. And the APA would be the single most biased trade organization you could cite. Of the 80 studies they like to cite, 57 have been determined to have scientific flaws.

 

I think you'd be foolish to trust the results, whatever they may be. And even if you believed in them, I think you'd still have doubts. They don't make anything definitive. So to me, the value of the poly is in the potential confession(s) that may occur. I'd make it clear that she has up until test time to come clean. Once the test is over, you have no interest in confessions. Be clear that continued lying is the dealbreaker, you don't believe her, and that you have to know the truth in order to have any chance of forgiving it.

[drifter777]

The polygraph is all he has so I strongly urge zinger to use it. The thing is - it works best to verify information that his wife has already told him. And not the parking lot confession info because - if she admits to sex at that time - she'll be too upset for an accurate test. It might be best to make the night before the last time she can confess without immediate divorce. The day of is too late. She's not going to "beat" the test so accept the results as the truth.

[66Charger]

She already confessed. Reactions dont lie. She doesnt want to take this test. She is furiosly fighting this thru proxy.

 

Posters may be right in regards to the accuracy of the test, however ask yourself Zinger.

Are her reactions those of a innocent or the guilty?

 

IMHO This is done. Time to go dark. I dont think the answers will benefit you. Stop the torture now, move on and heal yourself. There is no need to ask her any more questions.

Edited June 21, 2015 by 66Charger

[Furious]

I am divorcing, going as fast as the process allows. I didn't make any promises as to what polygraph results may change.

 

I guess I just need to know why exactly am I divorcing and was it worth flashing 15 years of good marriage down the toilet.

 

I have accepted the near 100 percent likehood she slept with him. It'll take an enormous coincidence of a soap opera proportions to convince me otherwise.

 

And you a drifter are correct. Yes she protests the PA but not making attempts to prove it to me. Its more like "you know me I wouldn't do that". Doesn't understand her credibility is 0? Well woman I knew wouldn't lie to me or hand hold the other man either. She didn't try to offer the poly or, say, build the detailed timeline trying to claim they physically cannot have time to do the deed.

 

Just venting here in my spare time and yes, it needs to stop. Either I have a confession before the poly, or she'll say "screw you" when she sees the papers.

 

 

 

I believe that if one feels that a polygraph is necessary it's overkill. In a weird way, how much proof does one need to verify common sense and intuitiveness that a slice of Swiss cheese has holes in it.

 

Zinger you're grasping at straws, it's as though you're searching for proof to trust your wife than it is to prove she's a liar. You already know the truth, the holes in her story are glaring. How much info is too much info? Has this become a duel between you and your wife, a game of catch me if you can? Your wife will never admit to anything you don't know, and you know this.

 

What you're doing is sending her the message that you really don't want a divorce and that if she plays along, you will not divorce her as long as she keeps her cards close to her chest.

 

This trauma you're going through is fresh, and perhaps the search for more proof is you buying more time to deal with the shock.

 

Is concentrating your energy on lowering yourself to demanding a polygraph representative of your true self. I don't think that is who you are.

 

I urge you to re-focus and use the time and energy to be true to yourself and to trust that you will be ok and it's a waste of precious time to put your future on hold by someone who despite what mattered most to you betrayed you anyway.

 

You've heard it from all sides, ironically your harshest critics have been cheaters and subliminal doormats.

 

Life is too beautiful and precious to waste mired in cheater quicksand.

[singer23]

So the family knows that she was asked to submit to a poly ?

 

 

While proposed frequently in infidelity forums, asking for a polygraph from a spouse is looked not too highly in the real world.