To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

Thank you, I think this is one of those "spot on" posts I was never expecting from a stranger (before I started to write here). One of the definitions I'm going to plagiarise for my own use.

 

 

I think we all more or less work within the relatively limited confines of our personalities. It's probably less conviction than necessity. This is the right solution for Zinger because it's effectively the only one given the way he perceives his world. It's not heroic, it's not anti-heroic, it just is.

[zinger]

Thank you and this is one of those questions which are etched in my mind (my understanding that I will never get an answer so posting them may be seen as rhetorical). Such as " what did he offer I couldn't", "if you loved him why didn't you just come and talk so I could just let you go", "what was on it for you", "was it worth it eventually", etc etc. I'd be forever grateful to a person who would give me credible answers.

 

Bottom line : I have no clue and this is probably the hardest bit.

 

 

Zinger- your personality shows through quite clear in your posts- you are very logical and determined- I can not for the life of me understand how or why your wife risked your marriage if she wanted to stay with you-surely she knew you would react just as you did-I am unsure where I am going with this-I guess just to say, if you are getting pressure or guilt for reacting as you have, I would say to those people 'you know me, how did you think I would react?"

[zinger]

The answer is very simple (I think I touched this earlier). I broke up with my family when I was young and for a while my lifestyle was.. chaotic... basically street culture. What I good mom wild call a "wrong crowd". When I met her and we got serious I've noticed that this lifestyle bothers her, so I left all of it behind ; part of that was that she inspired me torre-establish connections with my family. So they have loved her as their own blood and their relationship was always as close as you can imagine.

 

 

I do not see an issue with her turning to her family for support and thankfully Zinger has cleared that up for us. My question boils down to why she was turning to the family of her betrayed spouse, particular in light of his observation that their constant involvement hasn't been a positive for his healing or his current psyche.

 

They may have a different relationship than I'm privy to but on the surface it strikes me as weird and likely manipulative.

 

That's all. I trust that Zinger is taking my observation, like all of ours, with a healthy grain of salt.

[zinger]

 

For example: I am not a WS. But I would be extremely uncomfortable if my spouse, for any reason whatsoever, demanded I take a lie detector test to "prove" something. We all have something to hide. And my uncomfort would come from knowing my spouse, the person I married, needed this from me because she had no other way of getting past the truth.

 

I will divorce you because the man I thought I married would not subject me to such humiliation.

 

 

I think the bolded part said it all. I didn't force her to take the test. I didn't make it a condition of reconciliation (perhaps I should have). I just made it very clear that I see no other way to get the truth.

 

She is free at any time to say "screw you, let's divorce". I'm not chasing her with attempts to work it out., she does. So when she offers "anything" should I take it as a figure of speech? Anything except any action that does not involve me instantly forgiving anything here and now?

 

Again, I prefer to keep it simple, and this covers the suggestion that "I'm punshing hey to get legal action on the side" (not from you). This is a ridiculous theory.

 

When it comes to the humiliation of the polygraph, the only glimpse of light gere, that she didn't bring it up (herself at least) so perhaps she gets an idea of how enormously humiliated I am. And maybe this is part of my pedigree as per my previous post a do not believe a man (or woman) can live humiliated.

Edited June 23, 2015 by zinger

[zinger]

On a positive note : I have been informed OM hasn't returned to his workplace (at least for a working day) and it looks like they have an ad for his position out on a local ecareer website (at least it looks like it).

[Friskyone4u]

Its really interesting that those posting that so stridently tell Zinger how wrong and cruel it is for him to demand a polygraph test still have not put forth ANY other recommendations on how is to get any semblance of the truth since his wife refuses to divulge any more than she has been caught in.

 

Do you really believe that most Wayward spouses when caught tell the truth???

 

Why does this man not have the right to do everything humanely possible to get as much truth as he wants for his own piece of mind??? Who is the victim in your minds here, his wife?????

 

And then some of you suggest that those of us who are advising him to do the poly are being judgemental. What are you being. You have decided because you would not do something he should not.

 

And for those that have never been cheated on by their spouse, maybe until you walk in those shoes you should not be so opinionated. Everything I have ever read has said the key to getting over infidelity is total truth. He has no other way to get any idea of what has happened here.

 

ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS OTHER THAN THE POLYGRAPH OTHER THAN JUST ACCEPT HER STORY AS THE GOSPEL.

[turnera]

IMO, the humiliation of the polygraph is a GOOD thing. For her. Psychologically speaking, we learn what to do and what not to do through pain and gain. The pain of taking that test will stay with her for the rest of her life. And no matter what her future holds, if she is ever presented with the possibility of cheating on her future partner, she is going to REMEMBER what taking that path leads to. And hopefully she will choose more wisely the next time.

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

Its really interesting that those posting that so stridently tell Zinger how wrong and cruel it is for him to demand a polygraph test still have not put forth ANY other recommendations on how is to get any semblance of the truth since his wife refuses to divulge any more than she has been caught in.

 

I think that's the big thing and my main issue with these episodes. Somebody can prove they didn't commit an act on a particular day/time by getting a corroborating alibi.

 

But nobody can prove they didn't do something over an extended period of time. It's impossible.

 

Demanding verifiable proof is understandable, but producing verifiable proof is impossible.

 

Someone put in that position really has no practical way to demonstrate to their spouse that they didn't cheat, especially if their word has been compromised. A polygraph test is as close as they can get, and even those are not 100%.

[BetrayedH]

I think that's the big thing and my main issue with these episodes. Somebody can prove they didn't commit an act on a particular day/time by getting a corroborating alibi.

 

But nobody can prove they didn't do something over an extended period of time. It's impossible.

 

Demanding verifiable proof is understandable, but producing verifiable proof is impossible.

 

Someone put in that position really has no practical way to demonstrate to their spouse that they didn't cheat, especially if their word has been compromised. A polygraph test is as close as they can get, and even those are not 100%.

 

She could produce all of the texts, emails, and other communications between her and the other man, along with a timeline. If they had sex, they probably discussed it. If they didn't have sex, they probably discussed it. Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. Has that been offered up to corroborate her story? I can see that she might not even think to offer a poly, and I can even understand some dismay on her part even if she's innocent of a PA. But otherwise, I'd be thinking that she'd take every opportunity to prove that her version of the story is correct.

 

Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

[Mr Mind of Shazam]

She could produce all of the texts, emails, and other communications between her and the other man, along with a timeline. If they had sex, they probably discussed it. If they didn't have sex, they probably discussed it. Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. Has that been offered up to corroborate her story? I can see that she might not even think to offer a poly, and I can even understand some dismay on her part even if she's innocent of a PA. But otherwise, I'd be thinking that she'd take every opportunity to prove that her version of the story is correct.

 

Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

That's certainly evidence, but not proof. I agree it goes a long way to showing openness.

[fellini]

I'm a girl!

 

 

I apologize. I usually check these things before putting my foot in my mouth!

[Hope Shimmers]

That's certainly evidence, but not proof. I agree it goes a long way to showing openness.

 

What is proof then - if a polygraph isn't proof (because it's not 100% accurate)?

 

Actually polygraphs are very accurate these days if administered correctly - but not 100%.

[sandylee1]

Pure? Not sure what that means...

 

I think it's a marriage where there has not been any infidelity.

A number of BSs actually find this is the only way to reconcile.

 

End this marriage and possibly start afresh. However , some really want to know the full extent of the affair , to even consider a future reconciliation.

[gettingstronger]

Thank you and this is one of those questions which are etched in my mind (my understanding that I will never get an answer so posting them may be seen as rhetorical). Such as " what did he offer I couldn't", "if you loved him why didn't you just come and talk so I could just let you go", "what was on it for you", "was it worth it eventually", etc etc. I'd be forever grateful to a person who would give me credible answers.

 

Bottom line : I have no clue and this is probably the hardest bit.

 

 

And that is where my personality trips me up- I am by nature a problem solver- I am a teacher so it probably stems from that- if a child is not learning I dig to find out why-so yes, these questions will probably never be answered to my satisfaction- its probably why I spend time on these forums- looking for info and insight- I will say, I have met lots of nice people and lots of people willing to try to answer these questions, but no one has answered them for themselves (WS) or had them answered (BS) so.....

[zinger]

Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

 

No, nothing, at least nothing tangible. Nothing tangible to allow me to reasonably (not blindly) believe I know the extent of the affair. And/or nothing tangible to allow me to reasonably believe that while in at big loss with this aspect of the marriage there is a big gain in other aspects. So I can say to myself "I have a good marriage" like I used to.

[zinger]

May I please have your permission to copy and paste that in the future? This is great thanks

 

 

 

I think it's a marriage where there has not been any infidelity.

A number of BSs actually find this is the only way to reconcile.

 

End this marriage and possibly start afresh. However , some really want to know the full extent of the affair , to even consider a future reconciliation.

[drifter777]

She could produce all of the texts, emails, and other communications between her and the other man, along with a timeline. If they had sex, they probably discussed it. If they didn't have sex, they probably discussed it. Regardless, there's probably much to learn from their communications. Has that been offered up to corroborate her story? I can see that she might not even think to offer a poly, and I can even understand some dismay on her part even if she's innocent of a PA. But otherwise, I'd be thinking that she'd take every opportunity to prove that her version of the story is correct.

 

Zinger, has she made any attempt in this direction?

A few of us keep asking him this and the only responses I recall are, basically, no - she hasn't made any attempt to prove her innocence.

 

At this point the fact is that there can be no possible way to determine whether she produced "all" of the texts & emails & such. Since she hasn't offered anything like this as proof of no sex it absolutely cements in my mind that she did have sex with him. But that's just me - zinger is the only one that matters here. The circumstantial & logical evidence that it was a PA is overwhelming - but I understand why zinger needs to hear it from her.

[zinger]

Once again, a lot of attempts (eg. she is far from sitting and browsing real estate sites for her new apartment while waiting for the divorce to happen, she clearly sees that outcomeas "catastrophic"), but nothing tangible, nothing concrete, like any of the things you mentioned or similar).

 

Either she doesn't see a possibility to do so or... She knows theres more to what I know.

[BetrayedH]

Once again, a lot of attempts (eg. she is far from sitting and browsing real estate sites for her new apartment while waiting for the divorce to happen, she clearly sees that outcomeas "catastrophic"), but nothing tangible, nothing concrete, like any of the things you mentioned or similar).

 

Either she doesn't see a possibility to do so or... She knows theres more to what I know.

 

Do you have any objections to asking her for her communications? I realize you don't want to lead this horse to water but if you're going to have her quizzed thru a poly, what's the difference?

[Friskyone4u]

Zinger

 

She has made it clear what her strategy is. Stall and hope you weaken . who knows if she has or has not deleted everything . No way to know and she is standing pat with her hand and making no attempt to change the dynamic

 

Her goal, stonewall, he the relatives involved , and hope you get worn down .

 

Is there any conceivable reason why a woman who really has done nothing but a hug and a present would lose her marriage with out a real fight unless there is no way to divulge anything without killing her chances. Are her actions really those that anyone would expect of an innocent person

 

Zinger until you strap her into that test you will be on this merry go round if you want to know anything. Actually one question on the poly might be all you need

 

"did you have oral, anal , or vaginal intercourse with OM"

 

My bet is on yes to that one

 

Zinger you have the money and resources. Get your info and the. Decide where you go from there.

[zinger]

Do you have any objections to asking her for her communications? I realize you don't want to lead this horse to water but if you're going to have her quizzed thru a poly, what's the difference?

 

 

Nothing rational. It is just since we always had access to all media (I'll grab your phone to make a call while you are driving) no questions asked both sides, and I went "forensic" anyway, I did have a hope she'd offer that.

[81West]

I apologize. I usually check these things before putting my foot in my mouth!

 

No problem of course. It's funny...this happens to me ALL THE TIME on forums. At rates way more than chance. So I'm not sure why, but you're in good company!

[eric1]

A few of us keep asking him this and the only responses I recall are, basically, no - she hasn't made any attempt to prove her innocence.

 

At this point the fact is that there can be no possible way to determine whether she produced "all" of the texts & emails & such. Since she hasn't offered anything like this as proof of no sex it absolutely cements in my mind that she did have sex with him. But that's just me - zinger is the only one that matters here. The circumstantial & logical evidence that it was a PA is overwhelming - but I understand why zinger needs to hear it from her.

 

 

 

Having our reads on this probably doesn't help Zinger but I'm with you. I think she carried on an emotional affair that probably got carried away into a PA on a few occasions. She lied to herself that it was something that it wasn't and that's why her attempts are so damn half hearted, she's lied to herself for so long everything is a mess

 

It's clear she's hiding something, zinger has only learned new material inflation to this point through his actions or the actions of his PI. He'll, he found some half deleted files. Had to trace back through a GPS.

 

She's just not telling the truth. Or, more specifically, hiding the truth. If all that exists was on the table right now, she'd be pouring over specific and granular statistics and supporting facts. That's what people who tell the truth do. She would be exhibiting significant frustration otherwise.

[singer23]

Of course she's going to turn to family and friends for advice and perspective. She's in the middle of a personal crisis and her husband effectively sees her as the enemy. He can't claim any right to any kind of privacy when his unwavering plan has been to involve lawyers, judges, clerks, and polygraph examiners in their lives.

 

You are starting to sound annoying... There is a different POV. Then there is projecting your own insecurities and values on to others

[zinger]

Having our reads on this probably doesn't help Zinger but I'm with you. I think she carried on an emotional affair that probably got carried away into a PA on a few occasions. She lied to herself that it was something that it wasn't and that's why her attempts are so damn half hearted, she's lied to herself for so long everything is a mess

 

It's clear she's hiding something, zinger has only learned new material inflation to this point through his actions or the actions of his PI. He'll, he found some half deleted files. Had to trace back through a GPS.

 

She's just not telling the truth. Or, more specifically, hiding the truth. If all that exists was on the table right now, she'd be pouring over specific and granular statistics and supporting facts. That's what people who tell the truth do. She would be exhibiting significant frustration otherwise.

 

That is what I currently assume/certain to be the case. That there is more to it that that I know (pa or, say, a "love you" from her) and that she is afraid that any further action from her side will lead me to discover that and the house of cards will fall. That is why I'm afraid there is very little action on hey side (apart from tears, etc) and this is not usual smart and proactive her.