To bust or not to bust

[zinger]

If this was zinger's wife's mindset, she would not have given the PA reality in her own mind.

 

Knowing my FWW personality that would be the most accurate description of key mindset possible (assuming she is not possessed by deamons). Perfectly illustrates the subsequent post by sandylee1 about standard behaviours : the accuracy of many observations here is amazing despite my lack of ability to post things in local order (I'll try once again). And please believe me on not like a medical college student who at year 3 starts to diagnose himself with all possible illnesses.

 

Add for the rest... Sister in law? I assume your brothers wife? Apologies if not my business bid this is... Bad.

[zinger]

Agree. Plain and simply.

 

 

I think this thread is a perfect example of what LS is for. From the very beginning (suspicions) to now (divorce, poly), the OP has received a wide range of OPINIONS and that is what he asked for. At no time did he ask any of us "were you there?". Disagreeing with a posters viewpoint is natural. Slamming posters for having a different viewpoint is showing a incapacity to see other sides of the story.

 

With that being said, the pressing topic is the polygraph. The question is should she take the test. Regardless of what is implied by Zinger, if she is not 100% clear that he will divorce regardless of the results of the poly (his words) he is negotiating in bad faith. She must be given the option to take the test based on the CLEAR information that divorce is a 100% certainty. Anything else is not voluntary and is under duress.

 

Zingers original plan was that she would take the necessary steps to keep the window open for a POSSIBLE future reconciliation. IMHO, he should go back to this plan.

 

Zinger, if you don't get the parking lot confession, IMO you should pull back. DONT FORCE THIS. If she is willing to take the truth to her grave then let her. Let her know that when/if you are BOTH ready to consider reconciliation and she KNOWS that she has given you the WHOLE truth, about this and any other possible affairs, she needs to back it up with a poly.

 

Then accept it. Accept everything, divorce and move on.

 

Some of the questions that you want to know, you already know. Is he a better man than you? Hell no. Did you do as much as possible to love this woman 100%? By your words you did. You know who you are. You know how you conducted yourself during this marriage. You know if you were a good husband (perfection not required), so there is no reason to question this. Nothing excuses a A except abandonment.

 

If it is done, let it be done. Keep your head held high. Do not strap her down. If she wishes to do so without duress, then fine. This will benefit you in the long run.

 

This is just my opinion on a opinion forum.

[zinger]

Nothing is clear enough here to make even this projection to me. Unclear her state of mind, zinger's state of mind, what they've actually said to each other, what information he has and what's available... He should just do the polygraph, making sure the questions are the right ones, and see what comes from it.

 

Dropping IC, not finding someone else is a concern.

 

Is she in IC?

 

I'm typing the summary in word before posting here, so it's on its way. She hasn't seen IC at all. I went for one appointment and left never to come back as soon as IC assumed its all my fault and that I should try to basically compete with OM and win her back. Haven't felt any desire to go IC ever since.

[Clay]

Your going to run into some bad counselors. Don't give up on that. It takes time. There is no doubt your not looking for someone to just follow anything you want but you have to reinvest in you. Getting someone you really can open up to is a way of doing that. Its clear to me your a very straight forward guy but make no mistake we all need a little help from time to time.

 

As far as the Poly I am on both sides of the fence on that. I agree with what she will show you and tell you prior to it is everything. It might even be more telling than the actual poly itself. Some people just freak out at even the thought of taking one.

 

I still think your on the right path. Divorce her regardless of what is said or not said. Who knows how things will turn out afterwards but I can tell you It will be on your terms and not hers.

 

Clay

[zinger]

Your description of the comms aspect is accurate ( saves me some typing). Started (after face to face meeting at the after show and one subsequent at some gallery) with phones, texts and then (she admitted she was hiding it from me) moved to Web mail and Kik (Kik was suggested my OM, Web mail was hers). She was typing long messages in the text editor than deleting them, as well as deleting the source messages. I asked many times if she sent him any intimate pictures (no mms on the log before they switched to kik) she denies, but admits that many times be was sending suggestive texts like personal details of what he was doing at the moment and asking her to do the same (like telling what she is wearing at night). She admitted she didn't tell him to stop and in some cases even responded with more or less intimate stuff). Not sure if I should post more details (forum rules) so this is just a summary.

 

Eric I may take you up on your offer (except you picking up costs of course) if I have no progress in a week or two.

 

Also she was using her work phone.

 

 

Given the communications then that could help but I seem to remember it was only a few texts and calls before they moved to Kik.

 

And again, there is only two reasons to use Kik: You don't have money (and even then you'll probably use Viber, WhatsApp or something more "pure") or you're looking for a semi-anonymous way to carry on sexual relationships (swingers, etc - so you don't need to give out your #, cheaters so that it's not hitting data plans). Just visit Ashley Madison - literally every person there uses Kik.

[aliveagain]

I'm typing the summary in word before posting here, so it's on its way. She hasn't seen IC at all. I went for one appointment and left never to come back as soon as IC assumed its all my fault and that I should try to basically compete with OM and win her back. Haven't felt any desire to go IC ever since.

 

Not all are bad, some burn out, you need to find one that has infidelity experience and can relate to your issues. Fire your IC immediately, a good one can really help keep you whole through this. When you have a wayward spouse that refuses to give you the truth, the threat of a polygraph is usually enough to get you truth you may not have gotten otherwise.

 

She moved to Kik because she researched it on the infidelity forums she was trolling. Most of what she did was premeditated, she did research, she waited for you to go out of town so she could openly date. She hid money from you that she gave to other man, she lied and deceived you so she could meet with him, none of this was an accident, it was all planned and timed so you would never suspect. You are her intended victim.

[zinger]

Well, I didn't fire IC literally as I didn't hire, but I made it very clear that I'm not coming back and that such a biased position is likely to be against the code of conduct. On my way to the door IC advised me that I need to set up an appointment for my wife so she gets help in getting through difficult (for her) times. My wife has full access to funds so if she needs another shoulder to cry on in addition to families and all - she can google IC the same way I did.

 

I kind of believe Kik was OMs idea, but I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

 

Not all are bad, some burn out, you need to find one that has infidelity experience and can relate to your issues. Fire your IC immediately, a good one can really help keep you whole through this. When you have a wayward spouse that refuses to give you the truth, the threat of a polygraph is usually enough to get you truth you may not have gotten otherwise.

 

She moved to Kik because she researched it on the infidelity forums she was trolling. Most of what she did was premeditated, she did research, she waited for you to go out of town so she could openly date. She hid money from you that she gave to other man, she lied and deceived you so she could meet with him, none of this was an accident, it was all planned and timed so you would never suspect. You are her intended victim.

[eric1]

Totally. Kik is used for people who can't afford unlimited plans and cheaters.

 

He is poor and she is a cheater.

 

Talk about Kik hitting their target market

[eric1]

Your description of the comms aspect is accurate ( saves me some typing). Started (after face to face meeting at the after show and one subsequent at some gallery) with phones, texts and then (she admitted she was hiding it from me) moved to Web mail and Kik (Kik was suggested my OM, Web mail was hers). She was typing long messages in the text editor than deleting them, as well as deleting the source messages. I asked many times if she sent him any intimate pictures (no mms on the log before they switched to kik) she denies, but admits that many times be was sending suggestive texts like personal details of what he was doing at the moment and asking her to do the same (like telling what she is wearing at night). She admitted she didn't tell him to stop and in some cases even responded with more or less intimate stuff). Not sure if I should post more details (forum rules) so this is just a summary.

 

Eric I may take you up on your offer (except you picking up costs of course) if I have no progress in a week or two.

 

Also she was using her work phone.

 

Work phones change the game a little bit. There may be a legal issue with text recovery on a device that you do not own.

 

It depends a lot on locale and industry.

 

Either way, it sounds like she was sexting with her trying to make it sounds like sexting. Not very motherly if you ask me. And it also contextualizes the face touching and hand touching as inherently sexual.

[zinger]

Disagree. She had access to all funds (always had). We are both on unlimited premium plans for calls, messages and 4G. I wouldn't have even noticed money spent on the watch of the PI didn't tell me she gave a "jewlerry box" to him. So she is not poor at all.

 

 

Totally. Kik is used for people who can't afford unlimited plans and cheaters.

 

He is poor and she is a cheater.

 

Talk about Kik hitting their target market

[eric1]

Disagree. She had access to all funds (always had). We are both on unlimited premium plans for calls, messages and 4G. I wouldn't have even noticed money spent on the watch of the PI didn't tell me she gave a "jewlerry box" to him. So she is not poor at all.

 

I meant for him - she is clearly well-to-do. He fits the poor demographic and she fits the cheater demographic.

 

My jokes are really bad. I'm the guy who tells a joke at a party and needs to then sit there and explain it.

[zinger]

I meant for him - she is clearly well-to-do. He fits the poor demographic and she fits the cheater demographic.

 

My jokes are really bad. I'm the guy who tells a joke at a party and needs to then sit there and explain it.

 

No problems, I've just misunderstood your post. Yes, it's clear he played a poor genius card and that is how he got her to use Kik.

[drifter777]

Your description of the comms aspect is accurate ( saves me some typing). Started (after face to face meeting at the after show and one subsequent at some gallery) with phones, texts and then (she admitted she was hiding it from me) moved to Web mail and Kik (Kik was suggested my OM, Web mail was hers). She was typing long messages in the text editor than deleting them, as well as deleting the source messages. I asked many times if she sent him any intimate pictures (no mms on the log before they switched to kik) she denies, but admits that many times be was sending suggestive texts like personal details of what he was doing at the moment and asking her to do the same (like telling what she is wearing at night). She admitted she didn't tell him to stop and in some cases even responded with more or less intimate stuff). Not sure if I should post more details (forum rules) so this is just a summary.

 

Eric I may take you up on your offer (except you picking up costs of course) if I have no progress in a week or two.

 

Also she was using her work phone.

I don't mean to be a voyeur but I just wanted to let you know that you can post pretty much anything on here as long as you don't use the ugly words to describe something. Like you can say "BJ" but not the long form of that act. Whatever you want/need to express you can do here.

[sandylee1]

Totally. Kik is used for people who can't afford unlimited plans and cheaters.

 

He is poor and she is a cheater.

 

Talk about Kik hitting their target market

 

Agree.

 

Kik is very well known as cheaters app. No requirement for contact names or phone numbers .

[aliveagain]

Totally. Kik is used for people who can't afford unlimited plans and cheaters.

 

He is poor and she is a cheater.

 

Talk about Kik hitting their target market

 

Important to note, if she is not poor than her reason to use Kik was to hide her relationship with other man from you. That means she had to make the conscious decision to hide their correspondence from you.

[sandylee1]

Important to note, if she is not poor than her reason to use Kik was to hide her relationship with other man from you. That means she had to make the conscious decision to hide their correspondence from you.

 

Absolutely. There's no other reason.

 

It's the perfect app for cheaters.

 

I don't think you can recover conversations. Cheaters install and uninstall them to throw the BS off the scent.

 

She probably used this to discuss Zinger , hence the comments from OM , about her deserving better .

[zinger]

OK, trying to summarise and put more details once again – not in a chronological order. One of my concerns is either getting too graphical or making open some details that someone who know me/us can read (including FWW). Example of too graphical stuff is what exactly OM asked FWW via Kik and what she has responded: I know the answers (mostly via confession, although there were some traces of this crap in recovered text files), I just hesitate to post them. I can publish my email here if it is of any use – after all, being a pragmatic to a fault person I’m getting more useful input from here than from family, IC, friends and all.

 

Answering a previous poster: yes, no children involved and this is something I’d like to ask not to bring up or discuss anymore. I hope that the fact that no children are involved is sufficient. Yes, I have engaged a divorce lawyer, the process is not stalled and making progress. It is just as I want an amicable separation, the burden is on me (e.g. him) to prepare a detailed proposal that will not be contested by parties. And it takes time.

 

On “badmouthing” me (I think the question has been asked previously when I posted that I know he was using phrases like I don’t deserves her, she deserves better than me, and all. I have grilled FWW on that (because if I find she told him she loves him and/or she is unhappy in marriage – it’ll be ... not sure if that is what you call deal breaker… but I’ll have zero doubts and will let her go) and her response was that she has never said anything (good or bad) about me. I have only her word, but knowing her character (to a degree of course otherwise I wouldn’t be here) I tend to believe that. I think he was just using pick up clichés there. I have also asked if she ever brought up with him something like “It’s unfair to Zinger we have to stop or let him know” – the line I picked up from books and movies I admit – and after long tears and hesitation she admitted that “not really, maybe once at the beginning”. At that time he managed to convince her that I don’t need to know as while there is nothing “inappropriate” I’ll “overreact”.

 

On poly. I get all the points and views here. I never said “do it and I won’t divorce if you pass” or “don’t do it and I divorce today”. I was considering booking one and doing my research – and when at certain time we went through another round of “I’ll do everything” I just let some of my emotions to come through and just asked “does anything involve the lie detector” then followed with more “crafted” words like I posted earlier. The poly team suggested to me works like this: the assign me a consultant to get familiar with my situation and help me/prepare for me the list of questions. Once it’s done, questions are handled to the actual testers who know nothing about the person being tested, they just ask the questions from the list. Or I can skip the consultant and do questions myself but they don’t recommend it.

 

On what I know. Without repeating my previous post I know that:

1) It was what it is called “EA” here (or as she called inappropriate emotional involvement). She admitted/confessed to that.

2) She was hiding this from me – not only by using untraceable comms and deleting these files and messages, but by lying to me about her whereabouts/time spent. Not only she confessed but that is how I discovered the thing – e.g. when she was telling me she’s late for work but actually was leaving earlier. Conformed via message from her boss (lock screen message), toll records, etc.

3) She was buying him stuff – tolls of trade so to speak, watch. Also helping him to “get on his feet as an artist”

4) As far as physical goes – I have evidence and confession of holding hands, touching cheeks, and him putting her hands around her. I also know (confession) that he was constantly pushing for he to get more intimate and that she was dodging/evading this but never told him “stop, no more, never say it again” or whatever.

5) I almost (late for maybe 5 minutes) caught them together – and she lied about her whereabouts at that time. When she saw me there the basically ran away and needed her friend to drive her home as she was hysterical and hands were shaking to drive. The OM also ran away from me when I tried to meet him at his workplace (instead of taking an opportunity to clear things with me in a safe place – e.g. not in parking lot)

6) The comms bit has been covered before. If you are interested what he was asking her over Kik – example was something like (her words, I have not seen the messages) “I’m in a bed (some staff about his hard day and paining inspired by something) thinking about what are you doing and I you are in bed what are you wearing”. She responded with the description of the specific night outfit she was wearing (I have subsequently threw it to the garbage) with – according to her – any sexting details or pictures. That was one of the more intimate cases which happened when I was not at home

 

On her reaction. I’m 110% certain she knew that me and cheating are not compatible in any shape or form – not only because of that discussion I’ve posted about – over 15 years there were countless cases (movies, books, friends) when I made my position clear. She knows and admits what she has done was wrong – to her credit she is not trying to disguise it as something innocent now. She just denies sleeping with him, loving him (or saying so) or seeing him as my replacement. According to her is just started as helping/support (that’s how “motherly” was used) then he fell in love, started pushing for things, etc. And she was enjoying flirting, compliments, desire and all too much to just drop it 1st time he crossed the boundary. This was magnified that he was (is) an artist and she always had a thing for art. She constantly trying to reassure me she wants me and the marriage and that he never a my replacement in her mind for even a second, but having trouble proving anything to me because I’m naturally have all the “affair” evidence above, have little “not physical/full affair “ evidence (which is simply not there) and having hard time trusting her. This “withdrawal” of trust is probably the hardest bit for her right now.

[Dutchman1]

Take it ( or leave it)

 

 

I'm on the other side of the world, I have employed 116 people, 112 of them are female.

One of them could be your wifes twin sister. Always seeing the best of people, and trying to help people, ( not trowing empty batteries in the trash)

and so on.

My gut says, it wasn't a PA yet, but eventualy would have. The poor guy wanted support and pussy.

Your wife sadly fell in love with a fantasy, that's pour bounderies, yes.

Do the poly, redeem, repair your and her flaws if possible, and go for a month to Nassau, talk, make love and cherrish one and another.

Be in controll of your own mind, dont let yourself be talked into a reaction you will regrett, "cause I also feel you two love each other. Don't let your F******ego's distroy the one live you both have.

( but first POLY)

 

 

All the best, and talk and listen to your wife.

 

 

Dutchman 1

[merrmeade]

Lots of good posts. Lots of valid perspectives. But, more important (to me), lots of caveats with this one; lots of variables. The main one is zinger himself. He's very impressionable and changes with LS influence.

 

It's just not this simple. None of it. Ever. For anyone. AND no relationship or individual is ever hopeless. It's complicated, and a lot can happen navigating these complexities, finally, alert and informed, ordering priorities with moral certainty AND humanity, identifying cherished life goals. It's a huge effort to clarify and communicate one's understanding through all of these changes and then make decisions based on that understanding and someone else's reaction to it.

 

I think the Decision is so very, very complex and personal that NO ONE else should DARE influence, persuade, predict or direct it, not the timing for it nor any circumstance that affects it.

 

I wish we could help zinger with the bigger questions — just the questions. What does he want in 5, 10, 20 years? What does he need to do in this situation to get unstuck and get on the way to whatever it is he wants his life to be.

Edited June 25, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
poster request ~T

[merrmeade]

sorry - didn't come back to square one clearly;

 

Comparison was - I wanted something. I wanted him to 'pay' by knowing, understanding and owning (verbally) what he'd done. I got it. It's positive now, not negative or vindictive if it ever was. But my knowing and his acknowledging was my vision.

 

What is zinger's?

[BetrayedH]

So, they were sexting, too, huh?

 

And she's been over to his place? Did I read that from you, Zinger, or someone else?

 

If they were alone together in his bachelor pad, I don't see how you buy this as an EA. Twelve year old hold hands. Adults have sex.

[No Limit]

Her reaction was :

1. Turned absolutely pale and cried to hiccups

 

Your first confession.

 

2. Agreed to do it after she calmed down. Said she "understands and willing to go through to keep me".

 

"To keep you"... how fitting for her to put it that way.

 

3. A barrage of calls from family started some hours later calling me - basically- cruel and asking to not to ashame the family and if I understand the gravity (a lot of vibes similar to what 81West was posting).

 

Oh boy, sounds like my own family. Tell them the divorce will be worth it, your STBXW will be able to screw as many poor sobs living under streets getting by with minijobs as she wants. Maybe they could help her become a sugar mommy? Male students want to pay off their loans too you know.

[eric1]

Thanks for the background Zinger.

 

The story does sound plausible. It also sounds like your average affair. If it wasn't physical then it would have been if you didn't catch her. She specifically didn't exhibit any behaviors which would have been a deterrent. She liked the attention and sex was or would have been a way to keep that pipeline open.

 

Most affairs are not 'let me go get a penis in my vagina at 3pm!'. Most are a thrill-seeking mission where sex becomes a large part of the thrill. The thrill is attention, ego boosts, external validation, etc. Paternalistically, her affair is not very unique. VeryBrokenMan said it better in another thread

 

Make no assumptions that it would not have gone physical had more time elapsed. The OM was in it for one reason only, sex, because men almost always cheat for sex.

 

It's whyI understand where you are coming from on the physical thing, but my experience clouds that - in my experience (a PA and EA), it doesn't really matter, they're always eventually just about sex assuming they have physical access to each other.

Edited June 25, 2015 by eric1

[zinger]

I understand that my emotions are all over the place and the story itself plus the way I post here do not match the canonical scenario of other stories I studied here. Unfortunately these are my emotions I'm going through daily, I'm probably months away from ability to write things scientifically.

 

So I'll pull back, and will (after responding to recent posters) try to limit my posts for only factual and major updates for those still interested.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Lots of good posts. Lots of valid perspectives. But, more important (to me), lots of caveats with this one; lots of variables. The main one is zinger himself. He's very impressionable and changes with LS influence. The updates have ranged from cryptic to rambling, overly general to obsessive. Comatose at first, almost incoherent, he then got hyper excited with the chase for proof and now seems a bit blood-thirsty. Then, there's Mrs. Zinger, the marriage, the A, and we know too little about all of it—not to mention the ambiguous PI interceptions.

 

Because of all this and the wildly varying LS positions, the only opinion I have is that no one should have one. What's known about z.'s conversations with Mrs. z. is too spotty to recommend or condemn reconciliation. The divorce route seems premature, considering the bravado and speculation propelling these discussions.

 

Examples from other threads should be helpful, but all I can say for sure is what I've gone through myself and learned from LS, reading, IC and just working on my own issues. A few caveats maybe:

 

It's just not this simple. None of it. Ever. For anyone. AND no relationship or individual is ever hopeless. It's complicated, and a lot can happen navigating these complexities, finally, alert and informed, ordering priorities with moral certainty AND humanity, identifying cherished life goals. It's a huge effort to clarify and communicate one's understanding through all of these changes and then make decisions based on that understanding and someone else's reaction to it.

 

I think the Decision is so very, very complex and personal that NO ONE else should DARE influence, persuade, predict or direct it, not the timing for it nor any circumstance that affects it.

 

What I did, I'm glad I did for my own reasons. I've recently beaten down the last of the personal demons that made it impossible all these years to say and get what I deserved in my marriage and made it possible to be duped and cheated on. What happened was the victim died. And the predator. I faced the last of my demons, defeated lifelong tendencies and began to recreate Myself. I was determined to know and understand fully what my spouse did and why, to make sure he did as well and... AND... to get to where WE could talk about it.

 

It's not over, but I've laid it out for him. He listens, he talks, and he lets me lead. He's not allowed to evade or use stupid euphemisms. "Fling" is not in our vocabulary, for example. He can't intimidate or derail me. My therapist quipped today that my own healing has enabled me to do MC at home for free; he's just lucky I'm willing. What I gave my kids maybe I can give to my partner. But first he has to recognize it.

 

This is different from "reconciliation." I didn't know then exactly what I wanted but knew it was something like this.

 

I wish we could help zinger with the bigger questions — just the questions. What does he want in 5, 10, 20 years? What does he need to do in this situation to get unstuck and get on the way to whatever it is he wants his life to be.

[zinger]

No, what had been revealed to me was not sexting the way I understand it. No pictures or explicit texts or reference to sex.

 

I have no proof she was at his place physically as I posted. All suspicions only.

 

 

So, they were sexting, too, huh?

 

And she's been over to his place? Did I read that from you, Zinger, or someone else?

 

If they were alone together in his bachelor pad, I don't see how you buy this as an EA. Twelve year old hold hands. Adults have sex.