Marital Concepts from the 1950s

[xxoo]

More than likely because they were broke and weren't worth shyt....otherwise they'd be paying..My guess it wasn't out of some enlightened sense of paternal duty on their part...but ill just say its a hunch..

 

So, as a result, they have to watch the kids...

 

Just a guess here,,,

 

TFY

 

This is really quite shocking to me, and outside my ecperience. Yes, they "have to" watch the kids, because mom has a job, too! Both parents need to share the childcare responsibilities 50/50.

 

I stayed home when our kids were very small. It was a sacrifice we made for our kids. But now that they are older, I work in the same industry as my husband. He has more accrued leave, so he is the one to typically take a day off when a child is home sick.

 

The benefit is that he enjoys a close relationship with our children. That's very important to him.

[waterwoman]

This is really quite shocking to me, and outside my ecperience. Yes, they "have to" watch the kids, because mom has a job, too! Both parents need to share the childcare responsibilities 50/50.

 

I stayed home when our kids were very small. It was a sacrifice we made for our kids. But now that they are older, I work in the same industry as my husband. He has more accrued leave, so he is the one to typically take a day off when a child is home sick.

 

The benefit is that he enjoys a close relationship with our children. That's very important to him.

 

 

I totally agree. LS sometimes feels like a different universe to me when it comes to sexual politics.

 

H is a teacher so he is home 13 weeks of the year. For those weeks he is more or less the sole carer for the children. He is their parent - that's his job. When he is teaching he can't really take time off so I do it (fortunately I can work from home). I'm their parent too - that's my job. In fact...it's a job share as there are two parents both equally invested.

 

When did possessing a penis make you incapable to carrying out dometic duties and looking after children?

[RedRobin]

This is really quite shocking to me, and outside my ecperience. Yes, they "have to" watch the kids, because mom has a job, too! Both parents need to share the childcare responsibilities 50/50.

 

I stayed home when our kids were very small. It was a sacrifice we made for our kids. But now that they are older, I work in the same industry as my husband. He has more accrued leave, so he is the one to typically take a day off when a child is home sick.

 

The benefit is that he enjoys a close relationship with our children. That's very important to him.

 

 

What I'm shocked about are intelligent men who claim to be good dads who don't want to help raise them? I get it when it was forced on them, or the pregnancy was accidental... but these guys who get married knowing that their wife wants kids and he checks out?? really don't get that.

 

 

Will say, this is the #1 reason I never had kids with my now ex.

 

 

I told him before we married I didn't want kids... or if we did, that he'd need to be the one staying home with them for the first few years. Up until the end, he tried to convince me to have kids and tried to convince me he'd step in after I did the first couple of years. I didn't buy it, and I'm glad I didn't. He had a pattern of backing out of his promises.

 

 

Lots of guys out there who believe that the instant a woman gets pregnant, that she's going to go all domestic, and I haven't seen that either.

 

 

A good friend of mine told her H the same thing I did. He agreed, but then backed out a few months into taking care of the baby. Tried to get her to change her mind about leaving her job and staying home with it. Like me, she had worked very hard for her PhD and wasn't about to ditch it.... and she told him that before they even got married.

 

 

Boy, was she pissed. They ended up hiring a nanny. After she got tenure, she rearranged her schedule, started her own company, and now she has a lot more flexible schedule. So it worked out for both of them. Her H has always done 50/50, but he wasn't honest with himself going in. I'm glad it didn't ruin their marriage. If he was one of these biology Neanderthals, instead of the reasonable (and accountable) person he is, I'm sure it wouldn't have ended well.

 

 

People really need to take others at their word, especially in matters as important as having children.

[xxoo]

Bottom line: caring for and providing for children is the responsibility of BOTH parents. Some couples divide those, and some couple share those. But regardless, they are ultimately the responsibility of BOTH.

 

If my husband is suddenly unable to earn income, I'll need to provide on my own. If I get ill and can't care for children, my husband would have to care for the children on his own. He could hire someone to do it, or he could do it himself, or some combination of the two. But his children are his responsibility, just as they are my responsibility.

 

Men who desire a wife who is happy to be a support person and SAHM so that he can focus on his career need to understand that his professional success is at the expense of hers. So in the event of divorce, of course she'll need spousal support.

 

Men who desire a wife who works understand that comes with stepping up and sharing the childcare responsibilities, which may mean finding childcare or adjusting work schedules to handle carpool or doctor appts, and so on. This is the reality for most of the married couples with kids that I know.

 

There are a lot of advantages and disadvantages to each set up, for both men and women. Since more and more parents are choosing the latter option, it makes sense for the wording of the law to change and include "family leave" for men.

[thefooloftheyear]

None of you get it.....that's why its shocking...and its probably shocking because its rare, nowadays anyway...

 

Its like this....

 

It has nothing to do with dads not wanting to properly raise their own kids....In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth..

 

Guys that do this sacrifice our time because we believe we have a duty as a provider...And in my case(as a lot of others), it was determined to be in the best interests of our child to have a parent at home with them during their formative years..Neither of us wanted to hand an infant or a young child over to a stranger all day(day care or babysitter) while both of us were working...If that was the case, then its better to just not bring them into the world...but that's my opinion..

 

People can say that they share rearing duties 50/50...OK, fine...So that means if both parents are working, then you get to share the brief moment of maybe....6 or 7 pm until they go to sleep...(9ish?)..>A whopping 2 and a half hours? And whatever weekend time you have...if you aren't exhausted from working all week..

 

The deal with a SAHM is they are going to be with her from the moment she gets on the bus, til the moment she gets off..So that period of time after...Maybe 3:30 til 9 or 10...she has a parent around...they do stuff...A myriad of activities and things that they do with other SAHM's...Its great, its stuff I never got to do as a kid...I get home, fill in and do what I can..And although I work a lot, my time with her is filled with good stuff..at least I think so, anyway.. Summer's are great, too,,,Instead of going to some crummy daycamp or whatever, she is at a shore house with her friends and family and travels to see relatives and does cool stuff...I get to go here and there when I can, but obviously someone has to pay the bills for all the fun and games..so I am the one doing it...

 

All the while, her entire college fund is already paid for and she'll probably hit the ground without a single concern of finances...unless she screws it up...Not too bad of a deal..

 

So, I guess providing a good and fulfilling life for a child, is now considered shytty parenting because I didn't think of all of the fun and games I lost out on as a dad because I was too busy working to pay for all of it..?......And BTW, I'm not necessarily saying it has to fall on the guy...In all of the cases I am aware of, it has,, but that doesn't mean it cant go the other way...

 

Back to work now..

 

TFY

[GorillaTheater]

This is really quite shocking to me, and outside my ecperience. Yes, they "have to" watch the kids, because mom has a job, too! Both parents need to share the childcare responsibilities 50/50.

 

I stayed home when our kids were very small. It was a sacrifice we made for our kids. But now that they are older, I work in the same industry as my husband. He has more accrued leave, so he is the one to typically take a day off when a child is home sick.

 

The benefit is that he enjoys a close relationship with our children. That's very important to him.

 

My wife quit working when our fourth was born, and paying for child care no longer made any financial sense. When our third (a son) was an infant though, she was working evenings after maternity leave, and I took care of the kids including my infant son. We had very good, sweet moments when I gave him his bottle, and he looked at me the entire time.

 

Even while he was a rabid testosterone-fueled teen, we remained very close, as we are to this day. I can't help but think that the bonding we did when he was just an itty-bitty guy had something to do with it.

[xxoo]

None of you get it.....that's why its shocking...and its probably shocking because its rare, nowadays anyway...

 

Its like this....

 

It has nothing to do with dads not wanting to properly raise their own kids....In fact, nothing could be farther from the truth..

 

Guys that do this sacrifice our time because we believe we have a duty as a provider...And in my case(as a lot of others), it was determined to be in the best interests of our child to have a parent at home with them during their formative years..Neither of us wanted to hand an infant or a young child over to a stranger all day(day care or babysitter) while both of us were working...If that was the case, then its better to just not bring them into the world...but that's my opinion..

 

People can say that they share rearing duties 50/50...OK, fine...So that means if both parents are working, then you get to share the brief moment of maybe....6 or 7 pm until they go to sleep...(9ish?)..>A whopping 2 and a half hours? And whatever weekend time you have...if you aren't exhausted from working all week..

 

The deal with a SAHM is they are going to be with her from the moment she gets on the bus, til the moment she gets off..So that period of time after...Maybe 3:30 til 9 or 10...she has a parent around...they do stuff...A myriad of activities and things that they do with other SAHM's...Its great, its stuff I never got to do as a kid...I get home, fill in and do what I can..And although I work a lot, my time with her is filled with good stuff..at least I think so, anyway.. Summer's are great, too,,,Instead of going to some crummy daycamp or whatever, she is at a shore house with her friends and family and travels to see relatives and does cool stuff...I get to go here and there when I can, but obviously someone has to pay the bills for all the fun and games..so I am the one doing it...

 

All the while, her entire college fund is already paid for and she'll probably hit the ground without a single concern of finances...unless she screws it up...Not too bad of a deal..

 

So, I guess providing a good and fulfilling life for a child, is now considered shytty parenting because I didn't think of all of the fun and games I lost out on as a dad because I was too busy working to pay for all of it..?......And BTW, I'm not necessarily saying it has to fall on the guy...In all of the cases I am aware of, it has,, but that doesn't mean it cant go the other way...

 

Back to work now..

 

TFY

 

My mom was a SAHM, so I get it. But I also get the other side of the coin, and have sought a balance of the two when raising my own kids. I was a SAHM for 10 years--taking a big hit to my own career and personal goals, but totally worth it.

 

And now that I'm working, I need my husband to step up and pull his weight with the kid responsibilities, because I'm playing catch-up in the work area. He needs his work to be flexible enough to take time off for kid stuff. We need the laws to back up families in this area.

 

People are free to arrange their marriages as they wish, but the laws need to support both men and women having the flexibility to work or parent. Gendered laws are wrong.

[xxoo]

My wife quit working when our fourth was born, and paying for child care no longer made any financial sense. When our third (a son) was an infant though, she was working evenings after maternity leave, and I took care of the kids including my infant son. We had very good, sweet moments when I gave him his bottle, and he looked at me the entire time.

 

Even while he was a rabid testosterone-fueled teen, we remained very close, as we are to this day. I can't help but think that the bonding we did when he was just an itty-bitty guy had something to do with it.

 

Way back in the 70s, my own parents worked separate shifts for a while so that they could take turns caring for the babies and working. My husband's parents did the same. That was out of necessity (money), but even then our blue collar fathers were very much hands-on, capable fathers, simply meeting their responsibilities as parents.

 

Later my mom was a SAHM, but I've always respected my dad's baby soothing skills!

[thefooloftheyear]

What I'm shocked about are intelligent men who claim to be good dads who don't want to help raise them? I get it when it was forced on them, or the pregnancy was accidental... but these guys who get married knowing that their wife wants kids and he checks out?? really don't get that.

 

 

Will say, this is the #1 reason I never had kids with my now ex.

 

 

I told him before we married I didn't want kids... or if we did, that he'd need to be the one staying home with them for the first few years. Up until the end, he tried to convince me to have kids and tried to convince me he'd step in after I did the first couple of years. I didn't buy it, and I'm glad I didn't. He had a pattern of backing out of his promises.

 

 

Lots of guys out there who believe that the instant a woman gets pregnant, that she's going to go all domestic, and I haven't seen that either.

 

 

A good friend of mine told her H the same thing I did. He agreed, but then backed out a few months into taking care of the baby. Tried to get her to change her mind about leaving her job and staying home with it. Like me, she had worked very hard for her PhD and wasn't about to ditch it.... and she told him that before they even got married.

 

 

Boy, was she pissed. They ended up hiring a nanny. After she got tenure, she rearranged her schedule, started her own company, and now she has a lot more flexible schedule. So it worked out for both of them. Her H has always done 50/50, but he wasn't honest with himself going in. I'm glad it didn't ruin their marriage. If he was one of these biology Neanderthals, instead of the reasonable (and accountable) person he is, I'm sure it wouldn't have ended well.

 

 

People really need to take others at their word, especially in matters as important as having children.

 

 

You can dismiss biology all you want, the reality is that the vast majority of men lack the ability to be as nurturing, caring and vigilant as women can..Its just the way it is...

 

If you don't have it in you, then you did the right thing by not having kids..*shrug*...

 

I think women deserve the right to operate in any way they wish...No one is saying anything against it-least not me.....But don't expect men to just "play along" if that isn't in their DNA...When feminism tries to create these Eunuchs of men so they can advance their own agenda....then they have truly gone off the rails..

 

TFY

[RedRobin]

You can dismiss biology all you want, the reality is that the vast majority of men lack the ability to be as nurturing, caring and vigilant as women can..Its just the way it is...

 

If you don't have it in you, then you did the right thing by not having kids..*shrug*...

 

I think women deserve the right to operate in any way they wish...No one is saying anything against it-least not me.....But don't expect men to just "play along" if that isn't in their DNA...When feminism tries to create these Eunuchs of men so they can advance their own agenda....then they have truly gone off the rails..

 

TFY

 

 

Yep, and I had my tubes tied to make sure there were no accidents...

 

 

But for the same reason I'm saying I wasn't cut out to be a SAHM... one has to also acknowledge that there are plenty of men who would make a better care giver than the mother... even though it came out of her body.

 

 

In retrospect, I would have made a good mother... better than lots... but I expected 50/50... and wasn't finding men willing to do that.

 

 

I was around people who were very black and white about it (gotta love the Deep South)... you are a SAHM or forget it. So I said 'forget it'. To be honest, I don't view the men who REQUIRED that I stay home to be better fathers. Not at all. Just the reverse, actually.

 

 

There is nothing magical about going out and making a living. Part of being an adult is being self-sufficient. IMHO, that's why so many guys like the status quo. They have to have a job anyway. If they can get someone to take care of all the yucky stuff they don't want to deal with (cleaning, changing diapers, etc), then even better.

 

 

Anyway, I believe a good portion of what you consider 'biology' is social conditioning. Nothing more.

 

 

Your attitude about fathers being enuchs, is what I'm talking about. What woman in her right mind would want to support a guy who looked down on her, and considered what she did to be beneath him? Psssh. That's another reason I'm not a SAHM.

Edited May 27, 2015 by RedRobin

[xxoo]

You can dismiss biology all you want, the reality is that the vast majority of men lack the ability to be as nurturing, caring and vigilant as women can..Its just the way it is...

 

You may be right, but should all be limited by the preferences of the majority? Male or female?

 

That point of these laws, and feminism as a whole, is to provide opportunity regardless of gender.

[thefooloftheyear]

You may be right, but should all be limited by the preferences of the majority? Male or female?

 

That point of these laws, and feminism as a whole, is to provide opportunity regardless of gender.

 

Hence the term "vast majority"....

 

Look...Ive been around here long enough...I can be abrasive at times but I'm not unsophisticated or crazy...While I don't think I truly have that "motherly instinct", if my back was against the wall, I am 1000% sure I could do it..No doubt...

 

Ive pretty much stated in my posts that if whatever works for you works...great!...So you know where I stand..I guess I just quarrel with those that somehow think they can derail natural order in the name of ideology...It doesn't work in most cases..And you constantly hear how people that choose the "traditional" method as somehow unsophisticated and un enlightened....Im gonna disagree every time on that..

 

TFY

[autumnnight]

Hence the term "vast majority"....

 

Look...Ive been around here long enough...I can be abrasive at times but I'm not unsophisticated or crazy...While I don't think I truly have that "motherly instinct", if my back was against the wall, I am 1000% sure I could do it..No doubt...

 

Ive pretty much stated in my posts that if whatever works for you works...great!...So you know where I stand..I guess I just quarrel with those that somehow think they can derail natural order in the name of ideology...It doesn't work in most cases..And you constantly hear how people that choose the "traditional" method as somehow unsophisticated and un enlightened....Im gonna disagree every time on that..

 

TFY

 

Yep. A lot of women remind me of Peter's Boss....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvDmnFGnqQ

[Woggle]

Yep. A lot of women remind me of Peter's Boss....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvDmnFGnqQ

 

That is not Peter's boss. He made a sexist comment at work and had to go to some women'e retreat to learn to become more sensitive but it went too far and he came back a neutered and self hating male. Louis likes it first but in the end she loses attraction for him and wants the old Peter. It's one of the best examples of what has actually happened to male/female relationships.

[xxoo]

.And you constantly hear how people that choose the "traditional" method as somehow unsophisticated and un enlightened....Im gonna disagree every time on that..

 

TFY

 

I have no problem with families that choose the traditional method. I was raised that way, and I chose it for a decade, too.

 

But I'm fully aware of the pitfalls of the traditional method. I don't think it's a biological given that women will be fulfilled at home with children. There are valid reasons women want to participate in the workplace as well as the home.

[autumnnight]

That is not Peter's boss. He made a sexist comment at work and had to go to some women'e retreat to learn to become more sensitive but it went too far and he came back a neutered and self hating male. Louis likes it first but in the end she loses attraction for him and wants the old Peter. It's one of the best examples of what has actually happened to male/female relationships.

 

I agree. But, to be fair, it IS his boos when he worked at the beer company. This is at a company function after he came back from the retreat.

 

I know mt Family Guy

[Woggle]

I agree. But, to be fair, it IS his boos when he worked at the beer company. This is at a company function after he came back from the retreat.

 

I know mt Family Guy

 

True. It seems that every time Louis manages to change Peter she likes it at first but eventually she wants the old him back. Lot's of real truisms in there.

[xxoo]

I'm confused by the responses in this thread.

 

Is the truth that family court is unfair to fathers?

 

Or is the truth that men want and expect mothers to accept the lion's share of childcare responsibilities, and would prefer to pay support than have 50/50 custody?

[GorillaTheater]

I'm confused by the responses in this thread.

 

Is the truth that family court is unfair to fathers?

 

Or is the truth that men want and expect mothers to accept the lion's share of childcare responsibilities, and would prefer to pay support than have 50/50 custody?

 

In my experience, some of both. I see the men who fight for 50-50 usually get it, but it can still very much be an uphill climb and they can still lose based on notions that mothers "should" get primary custody regardless. Things are generally getting better, faster in some places than others to be sure, as far as gender equity.

[elaine567]

I'm confused by the responses in this thread.

 

Is the truth that family court is unfair to fathers?

 

Or is the truth that men want and expect mothers to accept the lion's share of childcare responsibilities, and would prefer to pay support than have 50/50 custody?

 

See #165

According to DivorcePeers.com, the majority of child custody cases are not decided by the courts.

 

• In 51 percent of custody cases, both parents agreed -- on their own -- that mom become the custodial parent.
  

 

• In 29 percent of custody cases, the decision was made without any third party involvement.
  

 

• In 11 percent of custody cases, the decision for mom to have custody was made during mediation.
  

 

• In 5 percent of custody cases, the issue was resolved after a custody evaluation.
  

 

• Only 4 percent of custody cases went to trial and of that 4 percent, only 1.5 percent completed custody litigation.
  

In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system. How can there be a bias toward mothers when fewer than 4 percent of custody decisions are made by the Family Court?

[Rejected Rosebud]

I think the women's movement destroyed the family unit and relationships...

 

And, even with all the "liberties" women have now, they are still freakin' miserable.

 

Why?

 

I don't agree with you or at least I see it different than you do, I am HAPPY and GRATEFUL that "the family unit" has been redefined (not destroyed imo)!! I am not interested in being pigeonholed into gender defined roles thank you very much!!

 

Women are emotional creatures. They are difficult to please in the 50's, 60's and now. That's why they should not be given so many "liberties".

 

Wow just wow. Maybe I am an "emotional creature" but nobody has to please me, that is my own responsibility to create a relationship and a life that pleases me!!! Maybe YOU should give up your own personal liberties but I am gonna hold onto mine with all my might thank you very much!

 

Maybe you should listen to a different podcaster, I think that woman is an ignorant hypocritical and egotistical JOKE of a person!!! Maybe try This American Life or The Moth!!!

[Rejected Rosebud]

Spousal support. Typically someone with a penis is going to pay child support, with just enough exceptions to prove the rule.

 

Not in my personal demographic I guess you live in an area where women don't typically work in professional fields. Here (the left coast man!!) is is across the board the higher earner who pays support if support is even granted which is not the norm unless there are kids. Women in my circle of friends often have a better paying job than their husband for example my sister is a veterinarian and her husband is the director of a non-profit community theater, no comparison of wages there! My mom is a physician assistant and my dad a middle school science teacher. Penises have nothing to do with it!!

[autumnnight]

In other words, 91 percent of child custody after divorce is decided with no interference from the family court system. How can there be a bias toward mothers when fewer than 4 percent of custody decisions are made by the Family Cour

 

This is an extremely simple statistical question to answer.

 

Since the ONLY thing we are measuring is court cases, then obviously, any of those that did NOT involve court cases do not apply.

 

So what they are talking about is this:

 

OF THAT 4%, what percentage are biased?

 

If there are 10,000 divorce cases, and only 4% have custody court cases, that is 400 court cases.

 

If all 400 men want 50/50 custody and are all qualified fathers (i.e. they aren't deadbeats, drunks, blah blah), and only 150 of them get it....that is some sort of bias.

 

This is not rocket science.

[Robert Z]

Women in my circle of friends often have a better paying job than their husband for example my sister is a veterinarian and her husband is the director of a non-profit community theater, no comparison of wages there! My mom is a physician assistant and my dad a middle school science teacher. Penises have nothing to do with it!!

 

Well good! Then we can finally put all of this inequality nonsense to bed and women's lib is done.

[RedRobin]

This is an extremely simple statistical question to answer.

 

Since the ONLY thing we are measuring is court cases, then obviously, any of those that did NOT involve court cases do not apply.

 

So what they are talking about is this:

 

OF THAT 4%, what percentage are biased?

 

If there are 10,000 divorce cases, and only 4% have custody court cases, that is 400 court cases.

 

If all 400 men want 50/50 custody and are all qualified fathers (i.e. they aren't deadbeats, drunks, blah blah), and only 150 of them get it....that is some sort of bias.

 

This is not rocket science.

 

 

No, no rocket science... but not the big bad boogey man that MRAs want to make it out to be either... where courts are dragging their kids away from them after a divorce, forcing them to pay alimony and child support for kids they never see.

 

 

I get it that is what a lot of men fear, but it isn't born out by reality.

 

 

... what IS reality is the fact that taking time away from the workforce, for any reason, has substantial negative effects on someone's career potential for the rest of their lives. Male or female. If it's not shared, it's not fair.

 

 

It's not fair to expect women to always be the ones taking that risk. Sure, plenty do it voluntarily, but social stigmas requiring that? Comes from a time when labor wasn't so easily divided as it is today.... and attitudes that it is the woman's job to make those sacrifices while the guy pretty much just does what he's always done. Go to work.

 

 

Doesn't sound like any marriage I'd want to be in.

Edited May 27, 2015 by RedRobin