Marital Concepts from the 1950s

[BlueIris]

It actually does in some countries. AFAIK where I currently live, you can split parental leave any way you please regardless of gender.

 

There are many companies in the US who do the same and lots of the tech companies give paternity leave regardless of the other parent's leave options. They just give parental leave.

[thefooloftheyear]

I saw some of that early in my career, but in the last 15-20 years it's actually been the opposite - the real men aren't concerned about what other people think. If the time is available to them, they take every bit of it.

 

I guess that makes me not a "real man"..??

 

Eh...I dunno...

 

I know a lot of guys and practically all of us have had kids in the last 25 years...None that I am aware of took a leave...A couple of days? Sure...Weeks?....never...

 

Maybe what you are seeing is just a bunch of guys taking advantage of a company perk, when in reality if it wasn't there, then they wouldn't gripe about it or submit it to HR..

 

TFY

[OpenBook]

I guess that makes me not a "real man"..??

TFY

 

I really have no idea and would rather not know, no offense. Just stating what I've observed, same as you did.

[ufo8mycat]

Maybe what you are seeing is just a bunch of guys taking advantage of a company perk, when in reality if it wasn't there, then they wouldn't gripe about it or submit it to HR..

 

TFY

 

I work in a university (a big one) and we have an executive committee that looks at gender equity. This is not a "women's issues" committee but one that looks at gender equity across all faculties - staff and students.

 

Equal men and women represented and the main issue they are progressing is equity of access to parenting leave. The men are driving this as they want time with their families as well.

 

So men are griping about it. In some sectors at least.

[Sassy Girl]

I work in a university (a big one) and we have an executive committee that looks at gender equity. This is not a "women's issues" committee but one that looks at gender equity across all faculties - staff and students.

 

Equal men and women represented and the main issue they are progressing is equity of access to parenting leave. The men are driving this as they want time with their families as well.

 

So men are griping about it. In some sectors at least.

 

I think it's great. More men should gripe about it.

 

Is available to men in my country. Protected. Up to 2 years. Government will even fund some of it. Guess how many take it? Less than 20 men per month.

 

I wish more of them did

 

Why do you think they don't?

[ufo8mycat]

 

Why do you think they don't?

 

Concern on how an absence from the workforce may impact their career? Not supported by older generation superiors?

 

The academic workforce is very, very flexible so I think it is seen as less of an impediment, although career breaks can reak havoc with your track record and productivity.

 

I also think that gen Y values balance and life experience a great deal more, So I think it will change as Gen Y progresses through the ranks.

 

I work with an increasing number of men who won't do late or early meetings as they have care responsibilities. This is a consequence of divorce (before mum would have just done it) but I think it is creating more balance in the workplace. 10 years ago there was always a 7am meeting and it really disadvantages anyone with care responsibilities.

[Woggle]

I have known men who are proud of being married to their job. Some of them take pride in the fact that they haven't taken a vacation in years. I am not saying this is a good thing.

[elaine567]

I think it's great. More men should gripe about it.

 

Is available to men in my country. Protected. Up to 2 years. Government will even fund some of it. Guess how many take it? Less than 20 men per month.

 

I wish more of them did

 

Why do you think they don't?

 

With all things being equal, it has a lot to do with affordability for couples and employers.

Statutory rate pay is not particularly appealing (£139.58 per week in the UK) and some employers will not or cannot afford to top up the pay either.

In Sweden, Norway and Iceland, new parents are paid 80 to 100 per cent of their usual incomes while on leave, and 85- 90 per cent of fathers take up the right.

In France, where the pay is half the minimum wage, just 1 per cent of fathers do.

I guess comfortably off fathers and couples will take the leave in the UK.

Poorer fathers will not be able to do so, unless the wife is usually the higher earner and it makes more economic sense for him to take the leave.

 

TFY also makes a good point, I guess it depends on the culture of a particular job as to how well taking paternal leave would be viewed by the employer and by other staff members.

[thefooloftheyear]

I work in a university (a big one) and we have an executive committee that looks at gender equity. This is not a "women's issues" committee but one that looks at gender equity across all faculties - staff and students.

 

Equal men and women represented and the main issue they are progressing is equity of access to parenting leave. The men are driving this as they want time with their families as well.

 

So men are griping about it. In some sectors at least.

 

Enough said....

 

TFY

[xxoo]

 

I work with an increasing number of men who won't do late or early meetings as they have care responsibilities. This is a consequence of divorce (before mum would have just done it) but I think it is creating more balance in the workplace. 10 years ago there was always a 7am meeting and it really disadvantages anyone with care responsibilities.

 

This is a real world example of why men having equal opportunity for child custody benefits men AND women, and why feminist fight for this equality (not against it). When men have child care roles, the work places changes to accommodate employees with child care roles, and that change allows women (who've always had child care roles) to compete in the workplace.

 

And yes, I predict that Gen Y will change how men view parental leave.

[truncated]

And WWII was how many years ago? So how is that even comparable? Why not compare more recent fighting, say over the last decade. And women were assisting in WWII to the level that they were allowed to. They were nurses, aid workers, spies, etc. But that doesn't count right? You do understand that males in power would not allow women to fight. So even if women wanted to, they were not allowed to see combat. So saying women weren't soldiers as some kind of comparison to the desire to fight is a ridiculous argument because the opportunity wasn't even attainable.

 

Oh, right. Women were fighting too. Stupid weak women.

 

Not to mention the partisan fighters in Europe who lived out rough in the forests and fought using guerrilla tactics. Many of them were women who endured harsh conditions right along with the men.

[truncated]

I think it's great. More men should gripe about it.

 

Is available to men in my country. Protected. Up to 2 years. Government will even fund some of it. Guess how many take it? Less than 20 men per month.

 

I wish more of them did

 

Why do you think they don't?

 

In my husband's occupation, both men and women can take parental leave for a new baby or to adopt a child. Lot's of men take it, and as far as I know, it's 40 weeks at 80% pay.

 

Most people here who work in the public sector get the same, and some of the major corporations offer it as well.

 

For everyone else, both man and women can take parental leave and can have their Unemployment Insurance top up their income if it's reduced by 40% or more so they can stay home to care for a new baby or adopted child. Only one parent can do this ( except in extenuating circumstances, like if the child is ill) but it can be the father or mother.

 

Employment Insurance Maternity and Parental Benefits - Service Canada

[xxoo]

The US is so behind in the parental leave issue, both in amount and gender

[Got it]

Do guys actually take advantage of it, though?

 

Doubt that will ever fly here in the US,,Most guys would get shamed to hell if they took more than a day or so, unless there were some complications, of course..

 

TFY

 

Why? And I disagree. Maybe in specific industries but in white collar this would be heavily utilized. Luckily in my company, while we don't offer a paternity leave, men are encouraged to take time off to help with the new baby and the company pushes for it. We are in the final stages of putting in a paternity leave policy of 6 weeks.

 

That is so backwards to shame men for wanting to care for their young children. That doesn't build morale or promote the company. In fact most of the Fortune 500 companies are adding this as one of their benefits.

[ufo8mycat]

Enough said....

 

TFY

 

About what? I am a management consultant. I work in lots of organisations. Big, small, public and private.

[thefooloftheyear]

Look...I run my own companie(s)...I can barely take a half hour to choke down lunch....And NONE of the guys I know took more than a couple of days, unless there was a medical condition..NONE...And if I do a quick count its at least 25 guys...

 

I am a father, I was there at the birth of my child and outside of breast feeding, I have done everything her mother has done..I am not one of those guys that wasn't present and just handed out a bunch of cigars...But, and anyone who has had kids can concur, the first few months of an infants life are spent doing little more than sleeping, eating and shytting...Sure there are those "moments", but I doubt highly that a guy would need to be there 24/7 to experience those...I got to enjoy each and every moment on weekends and evenings..

 

I find it somewhat ironic...I would think most women would appreciate a man that realizes that he has to be the main provider and the one that keeps the lights on and the heat on while her mother was at home with the child and making sure all of his/her needs are met, rather than spend a few weeks at home, to help the woman get back to work, while the child gets dumped in a day care center until 7PM...

 

 

TFY

Edited May 26, 2015 by thefooloftheyear

[Got it]

I have known men who are proud of being married to their job. Some of them take pride in the fact that they haven't taken a vacation in years. I am not saying this is a good thing.

 

And there are women who are like this. I am like this though I preach to my team to take time off and have a work/life balance.

 

It will vary by position and executives have a harder time taking time off as you are more expected to be available at all times. It was a big deal to everyone that I disconnected for my wedding and honeymoon.

[Got it]

Look...I run my own companie(s)...I can barely take a half hour to choke down lunch....And NONE of the guys I know took more than a couple of days, unless there was a medical condition..NONE...And if I do a quick count its at least 25 guys...

 

I am a father, I was there at the birth of my child and outside of breast feeding, I have done everything her mother has done..I am not one of those guys that wasn't present and just handed out a bunch of cigars...But, and anyone who has had kids can concur, the first few months of an infants life are spent doing little more than sleeping, eating and shytting...Sure there are those "moments", but I doubt highly that a guy would need to be there 24/7 to experience those...I got to enjoy each and every moment on weekends and evenings..

 

I find it somewhat ironic...I would think most women would appreciate a man that realizes that he has to be the main provider and the one that keeps the lights on and the heat on while her mother was at home with the child and making sure all of his/her needs are met, rather than spend a few weeks at home, to help the woman get back to work, while the child gets dumped in a day care center until 7PM...

 

 

TFY

 

No I don't think that makes sense. If one runs their business correctly they have people set up to run it for them. That is the point to be a businessowner, to reap the benefits from your initial hardwork. You do not see large companies where the owners are following the above - definitely not in my company and we are Fortune 500. Our owners understood that you hire the right/best people so they could focus on other things while the company continued to thrive.

 

And why assume that the man is the provider? I will be out for the birth of my child but my income is by no means shabby. I want my husband to have the bonding time with my child and our time off will not entirely run concurrently. He will take time off initial then will take time off when I go back to work to continue the home care of our child. Most women would greatly appreciate their husband having a company that will give their husband paid leave to help care for the child. I think it is grossly underestimating the value of the father and is a very antiquated view of child rearing.

[thefooloftheyear]

No I don't think that makes sense. If one runs their business correctly they have people set up to run it for them. That is the point to be a businessowner, to reap the benefits from your initial hardwork. You do not see large companies where the owners are following the above - definitely not in my company and we are Fortune 500. Our owners understood that you hire the right/best people so they could focus on other things while the company continued to thrive.

 

Run a small/mid sized company and then comment, k?..And I do happen to know a CEO of a major multi billion dollar corporation...He is a friend and client..I have been with him personally on many occasions when he wasnt in the office...He spent the entire time on the phone or texting/emailing ...A guy like that could never "shut down" unless he was dead or completely divested from the corporation...Staying at home for him would be absolutely pointless..

 

And why assume that the man is the provider? I will be out for the birth of my child but my income is by no means shabby. I want my husband to have the bonding time with my child and our time off will not entirely run concurrently. He will take time off initial then will take time off when I go back to work to continue the home care of our child. Most women would greatly appreciate their husband having a company that will give their husband paid leave to help care for the child. I think it is grossly underestimating the value of the father and is a very antiquated view of child rearing.

 

I (and I am not alone here) believe that if you aren't going to rely on a day care provider, then a woman is best suited for the role of raising an infant..If you disagree, then fine, that's your right, but I dont agree...So that means that guy has to be the heavy, right??

 

TFY

[Got it]

I (and I am not alone here) believe that if you aren't going to rely on a day care provider, then a woman is best suited for the role of raising an infant..If you disagree, then fine, that's your right, but I dont agree...So that means that guy has to be the heavy, right??

 

TFY

 

We were small at one point. That is how people become successful. And yes executives will work remote but they are home at times.

 

It is an older population that has this view point on childcare. Luckily we are seen younger workers coming in who have a much more equal view point on these items and many who want men to be involved in child care. And so if women are "better suited" for child care then they need to be protected in the work force because taking time out during child bearing years are the most productive/successful time period for careers. So we can't tell women that they are better to raise kids and then tell them they are on their own when their earning potential is drastically cut short.

 

And for myself, my career is very important so we are using my mother as our nanny for the first few years and then will enroll the child in a very progressive day care/preschool as we have some stellar ones in this area. My background is not education or child care so I don't see how having a vagina means I some how would be better at raising a child. lol

 

And I have no idea what your comment about the guy has to be the heavy means????

Edited May 26, 2015 by Got it

[thefooloftheyear]

We were small at one point. That is how people become successful. And yes executives will work remote but they are home at times.

 

It is an older population that has this view point on childcare. Luckily we are seen younger workers coming in who have a much more equal view point on these items and many who want men to be involved in child care.

 

And I have no idea what your comment about the guy has to be the heavy means????

 

 

Uhh,,,It means if the woman stays at home with the child, then the guy has to carry the load..Got it?...:laugh:

 

 

And before you think that guys are now staying at home in droves and becoming Mr. Moms, I live in a very affluent and very progressive area of the country,,,On the rare occasion that I have to take my daughter to the bus stop for school, there are no dads there....all moms....Maybe these guys are sleeping? But I highly doubt it...

 

Mr Unsuccessful...

[BlueIris]

I don’t believe that having a stay at home parent is inherently or usually better than having two working parents or that children/people end up happier, more empowered, or better people, partners or citizens when raised by a stay at home parent.

 

I don’t think they’re worse, but I don’t think that they’re better either.

 

I’ve known good and bad parents of each type and good and bad kids raised by each type.

 

No, Working Moms Are Not Ruining Their Children | ThinkProgress

 

Personally I don’t even understand why so many people get so concerned about what women should do and be.

[truncated]

I don’t believe that having a stay at home parent is inherently or usually better than having two working parents or that children/people end up happier, more empowered, or better people, partners or citizens when raised by a stay at home parent.

 

I don’t think they’re worse, but I don’t think that they’re better either.

 

I’ve known good and bad parents of each type and good and bad kids raised by each type.

 

No, Working Moms Are Not Ruining Their Children | ThinkProgress

 

Personally I don’t even understand why so many people get so concerned about what women should do and be.

 

Makes sense. you can get a stay at home mom or dad who is terrible and abusive, and you can get a working parent who is engaged and supportive.

 

 

To me, instated of it being men vs. women in parenting and working, shouldn't it be better for a society to try and reach a point where a parent can feel lie they have a choice, and don't feel obligated to either have to work or have to stay at home? They can do what is best for their child, be that mom staying home, dad staying home, or whatever other arrangement is best for the child?

[123321]

Makes sense. you can get a stay at home mom or dad who is terrible and abusive, and you can get a working parent who is engaged and supportive.

 

 

To me, instated of it being men vs. women in parenting and working, shouldn't it be better for a society to try and reach a point where a parent can feel lie they have a choice, and don't feel obligated to either have to work or have to stay at home? They can do what is best for their child, be that mom staying home, dad staying home, or whatever other arrangement is best for the child?

 

Lots of things would be nice, here are a few more, only slightly less realistic:

 

"Oh the buzzin' of the bees

In the cigarette trees

Near the soda water fountain

At the lemonade springs

Where the bluebird sings

On the big rock candy mountain

 

There's a lake of gin

We can both jump in

And the handouts grow on bushes

In the new-mown hay

We can sleep all day

And the bars all have free lunches

Where the mail train stops ...."

[xxoo]

Uhh,,,It means if the woman stays at home with the child, then the guy has to carry the load..Got it?...:laugh:

 

 

And before you think that guys are now staying at home in droves and becoming Mr. Moms, I live in a very affluent and very progressive area of the country,,,On the rare occasion that I have to take my daughter to the bus stop for school, there are no dads there....all moms....Maybe these guys are sleeping? But I highly doubt it...

 

Mr Unsuccessful...

 

I, too, live in an affluent and progressive area, and it's completely different. Here, dads and moms are both common in the carpool line. A friend just had a baby and I saw her pilot husband yesterday. He'll have about a month of leave for the birth.

 

Our area has a lot of PhDs, academics, tech jobs, etc. Two working parents is common, with both sharing childcare duties.

 

What is important, imo, is for the laws to provide the choice to families for dad to take parental leave, if that is what works for that family. There is no need to make it compulsory or anything. But there is also no need to deny it based on gender.